Daniel Vavra (Kingdom Come Deliverance) cancels his visit to Gamelab; Spanish development conference

hydrophilic attack · May 21, 2018

you people of colour can never understand the plight of us white men

every day, we may be called racists, misogynists or nazis for innocuous acts such as repping homicidal white power music, openly cheerleading harassment movements and wanting women to know their rightful place of subservience. this is true oppression.

how could hundreds of years of slavery or being the victims of ruthless colonialism and rampant patriarchy ever compare to that?

Zacmortar · May 21, 2018

Creatchee said:
This line of thinking is absolute bullshit and needs to stop.

You have no authority on what is or isn't considered nazism. It is a belief set. Not all willing nazis killed people, they were still fuckin' nazis.

TyrantGuardian · May 21, 2018

Creatchee said:
This line of thinking is absolute bullshit and needs to stop.

Expressing the belief that people of certain races should be murdered or "ethnically displaced" is an action.

Tibarn · May 21, 2018

VatticWave said:
Spaniard here!

So, GameLab didn't say they canceled the event because of "harrasment": They just say he received insults.

About Vavra's political affiliation, I can guarantee Spain is not a "dangerous place" for right-winged people (it's the other way around, actually). I can understand he got offended because he thinks he can't be a nazi because of his family's past history, regardless of what he says and defends... But that doesn't mean he got harrased.

Besides, If he in fact got harrassed, It's really hard to feel sorry for him, for what a lot of other users in this thread had pointed at already.

I don't know if some other people harrassed him, but the tweets shared here are not specially harrassing IMO.
And well ,Gamelab is hosted in Barcelona, one of the Spanish regions were the righ-winged people is less welcome tbh.

Famassu · May 21, 2018

hydrophilic attack said:
why are people saying he faced death threats?

he himself said he was merely insulted, and the screens that have been posted were merely insults, not threats, as far as my limited spanish can tell

Muh precious entertainment is being attacked by evil SJWs, libtards and feminazis. Waah, waah, waah. Cue exaggerated, false statements about the evils of SJWs, libtards and feminazis.

Kinthey · May 21, 2018

TyrantGuardian said:
Expressing the belief that people of certain races should be murdered or "ethnically displaced" is an action.

If Vavra has said something like that the nazi label would absolutely be appropriate, but I don't think he has.

raterpillar · May 21, 2018

People wringing their hands about watering down the effectiveness of the term 'nazi' but it sure seems to have a powerful effect on people who have nazi sympathies or nazi-like ideals as they throw tantrums when you do.

Deleted member 1238 · May 21, 2018

nillansan said:
Go right ahead, try to educate the racists then, do it. Report back.

I'm sure your method of "just insult them and wait for them to die of old age" is a good way of solving the problem, but I personally think it will take too long so I'd rather see actual change. People usually don't respond well when they're insulted and thrown into a corner. I know it can be difficult to have a level headed discussion with someone you don't agree with, and it's even harder to convince that person that he or she is wrong, but it's a lot more effective than sending a hate mob at them. They'll just feel persecuted.

So you can continue with your method, but considering the current state of the world I don't think it's working very well.

Riviakn · May 21, 2018

Tibarn said:
one of the Spanish regions were the righ-winged people is less welcome tbh

Yeah...No. We just don't like "Spain's" Right-Winged Parties, but we keep voting "our own", and it's Catalonia's Province with more Ciudadano's Votes (""""Centre""""-Right)

TyrantGuardian said:
Expressing the belief that people of certain races should be murdered or "ethnically displaced" is an action

Yet I remember Resetera almost celebrating and supporting South Africa ANC's President when he said "We are not calling for the slaughter of white people - at least for now" refering to the mass slaughter of white farmers

Neuromancer · May 21, 2018

I'm sorry he was harassed. I'm also sorry he's an asshole.

Famassu · May 21, 2018

Kinthey said:
If Vavra has said something like that the nazi label would absolutely be appropriate, but I don't think he has.

Nazi white supremacy isn't just about killing. You can support many nazi ideals without (publicly) calling for gas chambers for certain people.

If anything, normalizing hate speech and bigotry the way modern "alt-right" (aka (neo) nazis) do it is a path that leads to more drastic measures in the long term, when it goes as unchallenged as it does nowadays.

GeoGonzo · May 21, 2018

Creatchee said:
You keep saying the current usage of Nazi is imperfect, but handwave people using it anyway. I feel that this is an oversight on your and others' parts, so let's review history...

I handwave it because it is bad, but not as bad as any behaviour that could possibly lead to anyone calling (imperfectly or not) someone a nazi. Honestly, chosing this hill to die on, defending the precise term used to label garbage behaviour ranges from foolishly misguided (because they won't return the courtesy if you aren't one of them) to slightly suspicious.

OrdinaryPrime · May 21, 2018

Peter said:
I'm sure your method of "just insult them and wait for them to die of old age" is a good way of solving the problem, but I personally think it will take too long so I'd rather see actual change. People usually don't respond well when they're insulted and thrown into a corner. I know it can be difficult to have a level headed discussion with someone you don't agree with, and it's even harder to convince that person that he or she is wrong, but it's a lot more effective than sending a hate mob at them. They'll just feel persecuted.

So you can continue with your method, but considering the current state of the world I don't think it's working very well.

It can be difficult to have a discussion with someone who thinks that certain people don't deserve to exist. You're acting like we're talking about what kind of coffee we prefer. It's disingenuous. Milo didn't deserve to be debated as if his ideas had merit. Just like debating on climate change is pointless. Certain people's ideas do not need to be agonized over, they are simply wrong and abhorrent. Nazism is one of them.

Serenity Lotus · May 21, 2018

Riviakn said:
Yet I remember Resetera almost celebrating and supporting South Africa ANC's President when he said "We are not calling for the slaughter of white people - at least for now" refering to the mass slaughter of white farmers

I remember that disaster of a topic. :/

Zacmortar · May 21, 2018

Peter said:
I'm sure your method of "just insult them and wait for them to die of old age" is a good way of solving the problem, but I personally think it will take too long so I'd rather see actual change. People usually don't respond well when they're insulted and thrown into a corner. I know it can be difficult to have a level headed discussion with someone you don't agree with, and it's even harder to convince that person that he or she is wrong, but it's a lot more effective than sending a hate mob at them. They'll just feel persecuted.

So you can continue with your method, but considering the current state of the world I don't think it's working very well.

The state of the US right now is because of "level headed" discussion, the right not giving a sit because this isn't a difference of opinion, its hate and they revel in it.

I'm done wasting time giving them the dignity when I'm still scared for my life under Trump(and especially Pence's) presidency.

It doesn't matter where in the world they live, an adult bigot is a bigot and they know it and they like it

Tibarn · May 21, 2018

Riviakn said:
Yeah...No. We just don't like "Spain's" Right-Winged Parties, but we keep voting "our own", and it's Catalonia's Province with more Ciudadano's Votes (""""Centre""""-Right)

Touche... You're right, I'm surrounded by people who don't like C's and never will vote them, so I tend to forget the numbers from the last elections... Estem fotuts...

Muffin · May 21, 2018

Creatchee said:
This line of thinking is absolute bullshit and needs to stop.

As a German, it most certainly is not. Nazis didn't become Nazis suddenly when they came into power, their core beliefs were always there. Neonazis don't have to actively hunt down minorities in the streets to be one.

The guy peddles alt-right conspiracies and retweets their personalities agreeing with them, he's at the very least a neo-nazi supporter even if he does so out of ignorance or anything else.

OrdinaryPrime · May 21, 2018

Riviakn said:
Yet I remember Resetera almost celebrating and supporting South Africa ANC's President when he said "We are not calling for the slaughter of white people - at least for now" refering to the mass slaughter of white farmers

I remember when Resetera got married. It was a good wedding. Lots of people came, like Reddit, although they got a bit too drunk for my liking.

Kappa · May 21, 2018

saenima said:
So do any of you has any links to this harassment you're talking about?

Still waiting on the receipts snowflakes

raterpillar · May 21, 2018

Riviakn said:
Yet I remember Resetera almost celebrating and supporting South Africa ANC's President when he said "We are not calling for the slaughter of white people - at least for now" refering to the mass slaughter of white farmers

I remember that thread very differently - the dominant tone was absolutely not as you describe. Feel free to dig it up if you think I'm wrong. I don't think you will though.

Tranqueris · May 21, 2018

Relaxed Muscle said:
He's a racist and a xenophobe nationalist which game tries to paint any non-czech character as villains or beasts.

I think Nazi/Fascist is a good description of him.

Cue the semantic posts about "sure he may be a racist and a gamergater but how do you know he's a Nazi tho? I'm gonna repeat this argument until everyone forgets how racist he is."

I love that all I read was the first page but I was still able to accurately predict this would happen.

Deleted member 2317 · May 21, 2018

hydrophilic attack said:
you people of colour can never understand the plight of us white men

every day, we may be called racists, misogynists or nazis for innocuous acts such as repping homicidal white power music, openly cheerleading harassment movements and wanting women to know their rightful place of subservience. this is true oppression.

how could hundreds of years of slavery or being the victims of ruthless colonialism and rampant patriarchy ever compare to that?

Can I get a concise round of applause and a whispered amen to this?

Hops · May 21, 2018

Riviakn said:
Yeah...No. We just don't like "Spain's" Right-Winged Parties, but we keep voting "our own", and it's Catalonia's Province with more Ciudadano's Votes (""""Centre""""-Right)

lmao at calling Ciudadanos a right wing party. Just because they are against radical leftists doesn't make them right wing.

Horror · May 21, 2018

Daniel Vavra threads are like meatgrinders. All these bans.

Cap G · May 21, 2018

Famassu said:
Nazi white supremacy isn't just about killing. You can support many nazi ideals without (publicly) calling for gas chambers for certain people.

If anything, normalizing hate speech and bigotry the way modern "alt-right" (aka (neo) nazis) do it is a path that leads to more drastic measures in the long term, when it goes as unchallenged as it does nowadays.

So let me follow this conversatiom

-Vavra gets called a Nazi
-Upon investigation, he has never called for a group to be exterminated or displaced
-Nazism becomes something ephemeral and fluid rather than a specific belief set, anything that you percieve as behaviour that normalizes hate speech, bigotry, or the alt right
-therefore, Vavra is still a Nazi/White supremacist

What has Vavra done to normalize the right, racism, etc to deserve the title of Nazi? He's a dumbfuck, but posting shit on twitter isn't solely normalization. Normalization means to move those opinions to a format where they would be more palatable, and he hasnt done that

Killyoh · May 21, 2018

Peter said:
I'm sure your method of "just insult them and wait for them to die of old age" is a good way of solving the problem, but I personally think it will take too long so I'd rather see actual change. People usually don't respond well when they're insulted and thrown into a corner. I know it can be difficult to have a level headed discussion with someone you don't agree with, and it's even harder to convince that person that he or she is wrong, but it's a lot more effective than sending a hate mob at them. They'll just feel persecuted.

So you can continue with your method, but considering the current state of the world I don't think it's working very well.

Insulting never resolves anything but treating political adversaries like children who don't understand what are they saying or doing is unfortunately not a solution.

I used to think too that you can reason with this kind of people (I'm talking about far-right to be clear), and sometimes it works. Mostly with misinformed people (like, a some of Trump electors I guess) . But most of the time they have a clear agenda, know exactly where they want to get to, have a strategy and will not drastically change over a discussion because they too will try to make you adhere to their ideas.

So what's the solution at this point ? Insulting is of course not one but I get how you can lose your cool when you feel like talking to a wall. The only remaining thing to do is to make sure that racist, sexist and xenophobic ideas don't spread so you make your best to make understand why these ideas don't even deserve a place in the public discussion.
I know this clashes with some visions of freedom of speech but hard criticism is expression too.

Coloursheep · May 21, 2018

Tarot Deck said:
Calling someone a Nazi is heavy stuff, but it was normalized recently, especially in this board.

I agree, all the nazis coming out of the woodwork recently meant we had to start calling people nazis with a much higher frequency. I wish it was not so normalised but all these nazis kept popping up and won't go away, so you do what you have to do and call them out for who and what they are.

Like you I hope we can soon return to a simpler time when there are not so many open nazis that we have to call nazis, but that time unfortunately has not come yet.

raterpillar · May 21, 2018

Coloursheep said:
I agree, all the nazis coming out of the woodwork recently meant we had to start calling people nazis with a much higher frequency. I wish it was not so normalised but all these nazis kept popping up and won't go away, so you do what you have to do and call them out for who and what they are.

Like you I hope we can soon return to a simpler time when there are not so many open nazis that we have to call nazis, but that time unfortunately has not come yet.

Thank you.

Tibarn · May 21, 2018

Hops said:
lmao at calling Ciudadanos a right wing party. Just because they are against radical leftists doesn't make them right wing.

If something, they are the "disguised" right wing, but it's easy to tell that they are not better than PP or other right wing parties.
Luckily nobody wants to pact with them in Catalonia, so we're safe for now.

BernardoOne · May 21, 2018

steviejd1 said:
Is that why someone as horrible as Trump is President right now? Is that why us in the UK stupidly voted to leave the EU? It doesn't always work and sometime can make things worse.

? Nobody made Trump shup up. Hell, the motherfucking issue was much time people gave him to talk and spread his shit.

Kilic95 · May 21, 2018

The Horror the Horror said:
Daniel Vavra threads are like meatgrinders. All these bans.

It's beautiful, props to the moderators!

nillansan · May 21, 2018

Peter said:
I'm sure your method of "just insult them and wait for them to die of old age" is a good way of solving the problem, but I personally think it will take too long so I'd rather see actual change. People usually don't respond well when they're insulted and thrown into a corner. I know it can be difficult to have a level headed discussion with someone you don't agree with, and it's even harder to convince that person that he or she is wrong, but it's a lot more effective than sending a hate mob at them. They'll just feel persecuted.

So you can continue with your method, but considering the current state of

All this talk, but no proof of your qualifications as a Nazi whisperer.

Muffin · May 21, 2018

Cap G said:
So let me follow this conversatiom

-Vavra gets called a Nazi
-Upon investigation, he has never called for a group to be exterminated or displaced
-Nazism becomes something ephemeral and fluid rather than a specific belief set, anything that you percieve as behaviour that normalizes hate speech, bigotry, or the alt right
-therefore, Vavra is still a Nazi/White supremacist

What has Vavra done to normalize the right, racism, etc to deserve the title of Nazi?

The alt right is almost synonymous with neonazism. They couldn't be any more obvious with what they believe and act for. I still remember the time we had video of some of them doing the damn Hitler salute, but it really doesn't need that to understand what they are and what they want with a tiny bit of reading through their stuff.

Vavra agrees with these people and makes jokes with them on his public Twitter account. He's at the very least supportive of them.

Cap G · May 21, 2018

Muffin said:
The alt right is almost synonymous with neonazism. They couldn't be any more obvious with what they believe and act for. I still remember the time we had video of some of them doing the damn Hitler salute, but it really doesn't need that to understand what they are and what they want with a tiny bit of reading through their stuff.

Vavra agrees with these people and makes jokes with them on his public Twitter account. He's at the very least supportive of them.

How is that normalization? That sounds like just the opposite, that he speaks with them on their terms.

OrdinaryPrime · May 21, 2018

Cap G said:
So let me follow this conversatiom

-Vavra gets called a Nazi
-Upon investigation, he has never called for a group to be exterminated or displaced
-Nazism becomes something ephemeral and fluid rather than a specific belief set, anything that you percieve as behaviour that normalizes hate speech, bigotry, or the alt right
-therefore, Vavra is still a Nazi/White supremacist

What has Vavra done to normalize the right, racism, etc to deserve the title of Nazi? He's a dumbfuck, but posting shit on twitter isn't solely normalization. Normalization means to move those opinions to a format where they would be more palatable, and he hasnt done that

Yeah that's not what happened. Vavra has done tons to promote horrible opinions on Twitter, which is normalization. Twitter is how people get their news, propagating terrible GG misogynistic type shit on there is absolutely normalizing.

Cap G said:
How is that normalization? That sounds like just the opposite, that he speaks with them on their terms.

Huh, it must be really important to you that every single aspect of every single argument is iron-clad. This is like when gun fetishists go crazy when you call an AR-15 an assault rifle. "It's an armalite rifle!" smh

Riviakn · May 21, 2018

raterpillar said:
I remember that thread very differently - the dominant tone was absolutely not as you describe. Feel free to dig it up if you think I'm wrong. I don't think you will though.

Maybe it wasn't that a lot of people supported it and just that the ones doing it were very vocal? You might be right.
But the problem here is that they weren't banned, not even issued a warning, yet everyone is always talking about The Paradox of Tolerance when it suits their needs

Hops · May 21, 2018

Tibarn said:
If something, they are the "disguised" right wing, but it's easy to tell that they are not better than PP or other right wing parties.
Luckily nobody wants to pact with them in Catalonia, so we're safe for now.

you clearly have no idea what right wing is. if you say ciudadanos is "right wing" then the catalonian goverment is right wing, PDeCAT is right wing according to your shitty standards.

Muffin · May 21, 2018

Cap G said:
How is that normalization? That sounds like just the opposite, that he speaks with them on their terms.

What the hell is the difference? He spreads their stuff, peddles their conspiracies like Pizzagate. How is he not supportive of what they do and are? How is he not normalizing their stuff to people who might follow him because of his status as a director? How is the label you for some reason think isn't appropriate not exactly what he supports?

nillansan · May 21, 2018

Kilic95 said:
It's beautiful, props to the moderators!

+1.

OrdinaryPrime · May 21, 2018

Riviakn said:
Maybe it wasn't that a lot of people supported it and just that the ones doing it were very vocal? You might be right.
But the problem here is that they weren't banned, not even issued a warning, yet everyone is always talking about The Paradox of Tolerance when it suits their needs

Flag the post for moderation and contact the moderators if you have an issue with how things are moderated in a completely different thread. It has nothing to do with this one, and your post acting like Resetera is a hivemind, when it's clear from just this very thread that's not true, is silly.

Riviakn · May 21, 2018

Hops said:
you clearly have no idea what right wing is. if you say ciudadanos is "right wing" then the catalonian goverment is right wing, PDeCAT is right wing according to your shitty standards.

And who said PDeCAT is not Right-Wing?

Riviakn said:
Yeah...No. We just don't like "Spain's" Right-Winged Parties, but we keep voting "our own", and it's Catalonia's Province with more Ciudadano's Votes (""""Centre""""-Right)

Tibarn · May 21, 2018

Hops said:
you clearly have no idea what right wing is. if you say ciudadanos is "right wing" then the catalonian goverment is right wing, PDeCAT is right wing according to your shitty standards.

PDeCAT is right wing like C's yeah, and we better stop this derailing conversation.

Cap G · May 21, 2018

OrdinaryPrime said:
Yeah that's not what happened. Vavra has done tons to promote horrible opinions on Twitter, which is normalization. Twitter is how people get their news, propagating terrible GG misogynistic type shit on there is absolutely normalizing.

Huh, it must be really important to you that every single aspect of every single argument is iron-clad. This is like when gun fetishists go crazy when you call an AR-15 an assault rifle. "It's an armalite rifle!" smh

When the conversation is about the watering down and misapplication of extremely heavy, weighty terms, of course it matters that that particular line of thinking doesn't track with the terms used.

It's literally the only thing I replied to this thread for. There are many posters ITT who think that words don't matter, and that someone is to be condemned in the harshest possible terms, rather than the harshest applicable. It's an easy case to say that Vavra is a shithead, not so that he is a normalizer or a Nazi.

TyrantGuardian · May 21, 2018

Riviakn said:
Yet I remember Resetera almost celebrating and supporting South Africa ANC's President when he said "We are not calling for the slaughter of white people - at least for now" refering to the mass slaughter of white farmers

???

What does that have to do with anything?

lolilolailo · May 21, 2018

Tibarn said:
If something, they are the "disguised" right wing, but it's easy to tell that they are not better than PP or other right wing parties.
Luckily nobody wants to pact with them in Catalonia, so we're safe for now.

Tbh PdeCat is the same right-wing shit (if not worse) and they're in the government now, with an openly xenophobe as a president, backed by the left and the "anti-capitalists" (lmao).

But I don't think this is the place to discuss this.

negative-space · May 21, 2018

Jim2point0 said:
Lol. Love how high and mighty some people on this board seem to be... and then they condone death threads.

What ever happened to taking the high road? Being the better person? Not "stooping to their level?"

There are some sick posts in here. You are no better than this guy if you think he should be receiving death threats.

I was being sarcastic and yes, I agree completely.

OrdinaryPrime · May 21, 2018

Cap G said:
When the conversation is about the watering down and misapplication of extremely heavy, weighty terms, of course it matters that that particular line of thinking doesn't track with the terms used.

It's literally the only thing I replied to this thread for. There are many posters ITT who think that words don't matter, and that someone is to be condemned in the harshest possible terms, rather than the harshest applicable. It's an easy case to say that Vavra is a shithead, not so that he is a normalizer or a Nazi.

Word choice is more worth condemning than a racist shitbag. That's what I'm getting from your post.

Adryuu · May 21, 2018

I just love how this conversation has derived on talk about Ciutadans and Spanish/Catalonian politics, in some instances.

Man, the organisation can invite whoever they want. If you don't like the guests you explain why to the organizers, if it doesn't get sorted out for you then you politely and respectfully express discomfort (publicly if you want) and don't attend. You don't insult, but honestly, I also don't think it's been real harassment in the quoted tweets at least. I have no further comment on anyone's actions/decisions/ideas due mostly to lack of further information, so I'll keep further opinion to myself.

I love that Burzum tee though. Shame about the man behind the band.

Tibarn · May 21, 2018

lolilolailo said:
Tbh PdeCat is the same right-wing shit (if not worse) and they're in the government now, with an openly xenophobe as a president, backed by the left and the "anti-capitalists" (lmao).

But I don't think this is the place to discuss this.

I never said anything about PDeCAT, I fully know that Torras is xenophobe and that is a right wing party. But that doesn't make C's better.

Muffin · May 21, 2018

Cap G said:
When the conversation is about the watering down and misapplication of extremely heavy, weighty terms, of course it matters that that particular line of thinking doesn't track with the terms used.

It's literally the only thing I replied to this thread for. There are many posters ITT who think that words don't matter, and that someone is to be condemned in the harshest possible terms, rather than the harshest applicable. It's an easy case to say that Vavra is a shithead, not so that he is a normalizer or a Nazi.

Is neonazi supporter alright with you? And of course he's normalizing that shit, do you not know what the word means?

Daniel Vavra (Kingdom Come Deliverance) cancels his visit to Gamelab; Spanish development conference

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