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Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Great NYT piece on how same-sex couples both mirror and differ from heterosexual couples when it comes to childcare and assigning responsibilities.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/...ch-more-evenly-until-they-become-parents.html

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When straight couples divide up the chores of daily life — who cooks dinner and who mows the lawn, who schedules the children's activities and who takes out the trash — the duties are often determined by gender.

Same-sex couples, research has consistently found, divide up chores more equally.

But recent research has uncovered a twist. When gay and lesbian couples have children, they often begin to divide things as heterosexual couples do, according to new data for larger, more representative samples of the gay population. Though the couples are still more equitable, one partner often has higher earnings, and one a greater share of household chores and child care. It shows these roles are not just about gender: Work and much of society are still built for single-earner families.

"Once you have children, it starts to almost pressure the couple into this kind of division of labor, and we're seeing this now even in same-sex couples," said Robert-Jay Green, professor emeritus at the California School of Professional Psychology in San Francisco. "Circumstances conspire on every level to get you to fall back in this traditional role."
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"For, me, the choice to stay home seems easier than us both working and both stressing about who's going to do what," said Sarah Pruis, who is raising five children with her wife, who works full time, in Cheyenne, Wyo. "That just seems impossible."

Gary Becker, the Nobel-winning economist, proposed a theory that marriage was about efficiency: Husbands specialized in earning and wives in homemaking and child rearing. But in recent decades, as women have gained reproductive rights and a foothold in the labor force, marriage has become more about companionship.

Yet women married to men — even when they work and earn as much as or more than their husbands — still do more domestic work, and social scientists have found that the duties are gendered. Feminine chores are mainly indoor and done frequently: cooking, cleaning, laundry and child care. Masculine chores are mostly outdoor and less frequent: taking out the trash, mowing the lawn or washing the car.

Dozens of studies of gay and lesbian couples have found that they divide unpaid labor in a more egalitarian way. They don't have traditional gender roles to fall back on, and they tend to be more committed to equality.

They don't automatically have different earning potential because they don't face the gender pay gap, and they're both likely to work. Before same-sex marriage was legalized, it was financially riskier for one partner to stop working because that person would have few rights to the couple's joint property in the case of a breakup or death.
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Dorian Kendal and Jared Hunt, who live in San Francisco and have been married four years, said they had divided household chores based on their personal preferences.

"I hate to cook, so Dorian always does the cooking," said Mr. Hunt, 38.

"Jared should not ever cook," confirmed Mr. Kendal, 43. "And I hate laundry — laundry is the worst thing, and Jared gets mad at me when I do my own laundry. This is how I knew I was in love, when I found someone who got mad at me for doing something I hated most."

But when they adopted a baby, they decided Mr. Hunt would stop working and stay home for a year. His career was in transition, from ballet to interior design, and Mr. Kendal, a tech executive, earned significantly more.

"It's not a masculine or a feminine thing; it is just what we do to function as a couple and have our family work," Mr. Hunt said.
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One study comparing two large surveys of couples at two points in time found heterosexual couples reported increased equality in the division of chores in 2000 compared with 1975, but same-sex couples reported less. Mr. Green, one of the co-authors of the study, said the change was probably because more same-sex couples in 2000 had married and become parents.

Many factors seem to push same-sex couples toward specializing in different tasks after parenthood — especially long work hours, found Abbie Goldberg, a psychology professor at Clark University. People were more likely to share domestic labor when both had flexible work schedules, she found, or when they earned enough to hire help.

"The egalitarian utopia is overly simplified, because that is not people's reality," she said. "The truth is, same-sex couples wrestle with the same dynamics as heterosexuals. Things are humming along and then you have a baby or adopt a child, and all of a sudden there's an uncountable amount of work."
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Even when gay and lesbian parents took on different roles, they still generally felt it was equitable — which is not true as often in heterosexual relationships, and suggests a different model for achieving equality.

Couples said it was because they communicated; because the parent not doing the bulk of the child care took on other chores; or because the division of labor didn't carry the baggage of gender.
 

Cup O' Tea?

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,603
One of the most common things I hear from parents is "don't have children". They say it like they are joking but you can tell they aren't.
 

WaffleTaco

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,908
User Banned (3 Days): Inflammatory commentary across multiple topics
Straights are a disease of patriarchy. Once it is cleansed from the world, we will finally have peace.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
I mean the "it's a gender thing" was always about how society pays men more and expects women to stay home.

That one works and one stays home is not necessarily meaningful. It's that men are expected to work and women are expected to stay home is where the gender thing comes in.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Reminds of me of people getting more conservative once they have kids.

Suddenly safety and schools become a lot more important and virtue signaling less important.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,661
Reminds of me of people getting more conservative once they have kids.

Suddenly safety and schools become a lot more important and virtue signaling less important.
So you're saying people who aren't conservative hold virtue signaling in great importance by nature of not being conservative, either that or you see non-conservative "values" as inherently virtue signaling... okay?

What is going on in this thread
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
Reminds of me of people getting more conservative once they have kids.

Suddenly safety and schools become a lot more important and virtue signaling less important.

Wow nice. Virtue signaling lol.

Btw it's not kids, it's having legal marriage .

Turns out when your relationship is stabilized by legal protections you can afford to opt to stay homem
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
So you're saying people who aren't conservative hold virtue signaling in great importance by nature of not being conservative, either that or you see non-conservative "values" as inherently virtue signaling, okay

What is up with this thread
What?

I am saying that for a lot of parents theirs kids perceived safety and future takes on increased importance and anything else takes on lesser importance.

Including signaling that you hold specific views, whatever they may be.
 
OP
OP
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Equality is a lot easier on paper and a lot harder in the real world when it comes to work/time management logistics.

Doubly so for hetero couples who have to deal with the physical effects of pregnancy.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
Also one parent working, one at home isn't conservative it's the gendered expectations of who will do what and the uneven maternity/paternity leave pay outs that are conservative
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
What?

I am saying that for a lot of parents theirs kids perceived safety and future takes on increased importance and anything else takes on lesser importance.

Including signaling that you hold specific views, whatever they may be.

You dropped virtue signaling in there for no real reason (it literally read like a non sequitur). It didn't add anything to your post except to come off as a snipe at not conservatives
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,661
What?

I am saying that for a lot of parents theirs kids perceived safety and future takes on increased importance and anything else takes on lesser importance.

Including signaling that you hold specific views, whatever they may be.
Dude you equated growing more conservative with less "virtue signaling". What did you have in mind exactly when you formed that comment in your head as far as examples of virtue signaling, and how would being a parent preclude one from whatever that may be?

I have two kids and I'm able to volunteer and go to protests and marches and fundraisers and I haven't compromised on my virtues just because I'm a parent
 

Veggen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,246
That one works and one stays home is not necessarily meaningful.
Why not? A top-down approach (equal parental leave etc) combats that, and could mitigate change in unpaid labor resulting from kids.
Reminds of me of people getting more conservative once they have kids.

Suddenly safety and schools become a lot more important and virtue signaling less important.
The change of circumstances is probably the best criticism against Marslow's hierarchy of needs.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
Equality is a lot easier on paper and a lot harder in the real world when it comes to work/time management logistics.

Doubly so for hetero couples who have to deal with the physical effects of pregnancy.

Equality is different when choices are allowed to be made

One employed, one at home can be a form of equality when it's freed from societal gendered expectations.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
Why not? A top-down approach (equal parental leave etc) combats that, and could mitigate change in unpaid labor resulting from kids.

Because having a parent be at home to look after a young child can be a great thing. It's when who stays home gets decided by your gender that things get messy
 
OP
OP
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Equality is different when choices are allowed to be made

One employed, one at home can be a form of equality when it's freed from societal gendered expectations.
You're never going to be free of the nature of reproduction and its imbalance in workload distribution between the genders w/ newborns though. It's always going to slant/warp things, even if all else is equal.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Yeah, I don't really see the correlation with a same sex couple getting a kid and starting to assign specific tasks for each person with becoming conservative.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
You're never going to be free of the nature of reproduction and its imbalance in workload distribution between the genders w/ newborns though. It's always going to slant/warp things, even if all else is equal.

1 to 1 equal distribution is probably unlikely period.

Really though the report speaks for itself that same sex couples report feeling less unequal because they got to sit down and really truly choose free from societal expectations and norms.

And given that gay men seem to pull of stay at home Dad... I think more straight men can too.
 

Veggen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,246
Because having a parent be at home to look after a young child can be a great thing. It's when who stays home gets decided by your gender that things get messy
Which is what I meant by top-down approach. The OP also indicates that it'd be helpful for gay couples with children as well, furthering my point.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Maybe my mistake was using the word 'conservative' which has a specific political meaning in the US.

A better word may have been 'traditional'. As in caring about your own home to a greater degree now that you have a kid which needs a secure future. And what your social group thinks becomes less important.
 

hodayathink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,055
Maybe my mistake was using the word 'conservative' which has a specific political meaning in the US.

A better word may have been 'traditional'. As in caring about your own home to a greater degree now that you have a kid which needs a secure future. And what your social group thinks becomes less important.

Nah, you're mistake is in thinking that the primary reason people espouse or follow their beliefs is because of their social groups. People's priorities changing doesn't mean they were "virtue signaling" before.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
Maybe my mistake was using the word 'conservative' which has a specific political meaning in the US.

A better word may have been 'traditional'. As in caring about your own home to a greater degree now that you have a kid which needs a secure future. And what your social group thinks becomes less important.

Traditional just feels like another word for conservative here lol especially because you're still talking weirdly about it in contrast to virtue signaling for no real reason...
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,086
Arkansas, USA
I'm a heterosexual married man with two young kids that works full-time. I also do all of the outdoor chores and about half of the indoor chores (I do all of the cleaning). It's exhausting, my heart goes out to the people that do even more than that.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
Just to make sure I'm not missing anything... this study discovered that in a relationship, when a person starts working fewer hours, they do more household chores?