Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze |OT| Donkey's Got a Brand New Funk

ryechu · May 13, 2018

ScOULaris said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

This game has the worst boss fights of any platformer. Ever. I say that without a shred of hyperbole.

They are joyless, plodding, overlong slogs that feel like they came from a different developer entirely. Awful.

DKC2's 3rd boss is worse than any boss in this game. Also, It seems to me that the biggest flaw of TF's boss design is how often it punishes blind-run players in the 3rd act. At least this is what explains why some people are so negative about the boss design in this game, while others-especially those that know the bosses nuances so as to speed run them--find them enjoyable enough upon replay. The former group is predominately composed of people who were killed in the 2nd or 3rd act. At least that's the pattern I've seen from lurking in forums.

shadowman16 · May 13, 2018

Funny that boss fights are mentioned, I was going to mention how they feel like a clear step up from DKCR bosses - which I really didn't enjoy at all. I felt the bosses in this game were designed way better and were more fun to fight, less frustrating like Returns were. Though much like Rayman Origins/Legends the bosses play second fiddle to the amazing level design of the rest of the levels.

Anyway, finished the main story just now. Absolutely loved the game, with the only real criticism I have being the swimming levels not being as fun as the other worlds - what I do appreciate about the level design throughout is that they always seem to push a cool new gimmick onto each stage, making each feel unique and fun in its own way, and there were so many that were so darn fun for me - with Stages 3-1 and 6-6 being my standout levels so far. Now back to getting the rest of the puzzle pieces/KONG letters, only got a few left on world 6.

Oh, and the soundtrack is totally amazing, not a bad tune in the entire game.

Deleted member 42484 · May 13, 2018

ScOULaris said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

This game has the worst boss fights of any platformer. Ever. I say that without a shred of hyperbole.

They are joyless, plodding, overlong slogs that feel like they came from a different developer entirely. Awful.

I can think of plenty of platformers with worse boss fights. A handful of Mario games included.

I mean, I get the complaints from some people, but saying they are the worst boss fights ever? C'mon.

Nocturnowl · May 13, 2018

Maybe it's the hard mode grind talking but I kinda like the bosses?
Creative and varied, given as much presentation as the levels themselves.
Still ways to improve and they're definitely gonna be a mission for some, but hey that's where items can even the playing field as well as a well used Dixie Kong Pow.

Both TF and Rayman Legends stepped up a lot for their bosses compared to their predecessors, especially Rayman where Origins was like an entire game of meat boys hell boss, Legends had some good ones I did not expect after that.

Gartooth · May 13, 2018

If Retro makes DKCR3, the two major improvements they can make are:

-- Limiting levels to only 1 bonus room each, or just axing the concept.

-- Reducing the length of boss fights.

I think TF's boss fights offer great presentation and challenges, and while I personally enjoy them, I agree they can go on for too long depending on player skill. The worst example is probably Fredrik, where if you miss the narrow timing of his final phase head charge you need to wait a couple rounds and dodge all his attacks again just to get another opportunity to hit him.

Mr.Fletcher · May 13, 2018

I liked how old school the bosses felt - each boss had several patterns, tells to look out for and got progressively harder.

The last two bosses just go on a tad too long. If you die, usually on the final phase, you're just going through the motions to get back to the final few hits.

I wouldn't have minded a few Meat Boy-esque platforming bosses. This game is at its best when you've built up momentum and are tearing through a level. But the bosses don't leverage that at all.

Garlic · May 13, 2018

I don't know how they can be the worst bosses ever when they aren't even the worst in the Donkey Kong Country series

Deleted member 3017 · May 13, 2018

The bosses in this game are fantastic. Yup.

Infinity Times Two · May 13, 2018

One thing I feel this game nails is world building, and it does it better than even other Nintendo games.

In other words, the Mario games are also excellent platformers but there's always this sense that the gameplay was created first and then put into the world.

In TF there's seemingly always an explanation why a platforming obstacle is there. A giant blade that cuts the fruit being processed that was picked from the jungle, you name it.

tenderbrew · May 13, 2018

Boss fights are great and definitely get better as you do. Like the rest of the game. Brilliant imo.

Deleted member 33 · May 13, 2018

Purchased this game earlier this morning.

Re-playing Tropical Freeze reminded me of just how talented Retro Studios really is. There's so many little details in each of the levels and worlds.

Phendrift · May 13, 2018

Love the boss fights. They're really satisfying to learn all of the shortcuts to

kickz · May 13, 2018

Finally beat the damn ninja baboon boss

Peleo · May 13, 2018

Is there a way to play as Funky in the multiplayer?

David Sr. · May 13, 2018

Rayman Legends definitely had better bosses than Origins but ironically I think they are too easy and too short to be memorable. They also prove that having checkpoints during the battle completely ruins the flow of the combat and eradicates every sense of accomplishment.

I get why there are people that dislike DKCR and TF bosses but I find them amazing. They have an incredible presentation and are the most challenging part of the game without any doubt. In addition they are as deep as the rest of the level design, with multiple points where you can break their routines and take shortcuts to anticipate their defeat.

Maybe the way to improve the bosses is designing them in order to always be vulnerable and rely less on scripted weaknesses and more on hard-to-reach spots. The way they are designed now, with each death you learn better to survive their attacks, but not necessarily to cause them more damage and faster (you learn to do that on the time trials, though), so if you lose 2 minutes in the battle, you'll probably have to wait 2 minutes to get where you were before dying.

The perfect Dark · May 13, 2018

The boss fights are just too long. That's my only complaint. They aren't frustrating or unfair, they need to be shorter.

Charlie0108 · May 13, 2018

Reading through some of the last few pages and I feel like I'm going crazy with all the Bopopolis rage. It's the easiest of the K levels by far in my opinion.

Calamari41 · May 13, 2018

I find the boss fight discussion kind of amusing, because they are set up basically like Cuphead bosses.

They're really good fights. The problem is that they keep you from getting to more platforming, which is what people signed up for. Kind of like the platforming levels in Cuphead, just flipped.

Tricky I Shadow · May 13, 2018

ScOULaris said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

This game has the worst boss fights of any platformer. Ever. I say that without a shred of hyperbole.

They are joyless, plodding, overlong slogs that feel like they came from a different developer entirely. Awful.

Without a shred of hyperbole?

Neiteio · May 13, 2018

I like the bosses in this game. I just did the World 3 boss and it was great. Lots of ducking and weaving, then swooping in to bop or bomb the enemy. Keeps me on my toes.

ScOULaris · May 13, 2018

Tricky I Shadow said:
Without a shred of hyperbole?

Yeah, I'm serious. I haven't personally played a 2D platformer with worse bosses. I absolutely loathe their design in Tropical Freeze.

There are probably worse bosses out there, of course, but this has got to be the biggest discrepancy between the quality of normal platforming levels and boss fights. It reminds me of the bosses in Deus Ex: Human Revolution. They were handled by a different dev team and totally broke the flow of the main gameplay. Much like with Human Revolution, many reviews for Tropical Freeze criticized the game's boss fights as a low point.

David Sr. · May 13, 2018

To be honest I personally haven't played a lot of 2D platformers with better bosses than DKCTF. In terms of complexity, routines and presentation (and nailing the three aspects simultaneously) nothing comes to my mind. Maybe Wario Land 4 and, if we are counting it as a platformer, Samus Returns.

ViewtifulJC · May 13, 2018

nobody's got anything on hating TF boss fights compared to this guy:

SavoryTruffle said:
I once claimed that Returns had the eight worst boss fights of all time. Immediately I had to ask myself how much hyperbole was contained within that statement. The answer? Surprisingly little. I could not find bosses in any game that I hate more than Returns bosses. I don't think any differently of the bosses in this game. Not a single attack in the first two phases of every boss in this game (the sole exception being the somewhat difficult to land bop during the final boss charge attack) was ever going to hit me even a single time. Like, I am falling asleep midfight in a way that I have not in any other game in the hundreds of games I have played in my entire life. This is not hyperbole. I went out of my way to try and find something that worked my mind less than Retro DK boss fights prior to the final phase. The easiest games and the easiest individual moments I could think of still demanded significantly more mental effort, even if they were so forgiving that the player couldn't possibly fail. It really cannot be overstated how above and beyond the simplicity of these patterns are. The irony is that they're so aggressively boring I end up being pretty bad at them, especially when I go down at the very end and have to redo it. I got stuck in the world 4 boss hitbox during the final phase and was effectively instantly killed. The frustration of having to sit through something I hated that much got to me and I went on to die a couple more times. Asking the player to take risks and create difficulty (in my case desperately find ways to maintain minimal attention) is not an acceptable answer to bad design.

LordByron28 · May 13, 2018

If/whenever there is another DKC, I think they could do better boss sequences. Imagine a boss level like TF but is broken up in between platforming segments. There are three boss phases with a checkpoint after each. Level is structured similar to Irate Eight with the boss appearing and creating hazards then you defeat its first phase. Then there is another platforming segment with a checkpoint at the start of it. You face off against the 2nd phase. Pass a checkpoint and reach the final platforming segment and final boss phase at the end.

For example, World 2 boss could've had a rocket barrel level chasing after the owl from one nest to another dividing the boss and rocket barrel phases. World 3 boss could've featured a minecart level with the monkey phases intermixed. Likewise a level like Irate Eight with Fugu's Boss phases intermixed.

Xtortion · May 13, 2018

TF's boss fights are a wash for me. They don't detract from the game, but I don't particularly enjoy them either. Most of them are pretty easy, but also are very slow and don't pose a consistent risk. The baboons and Bashmaster fair the best with some relatively fast paced hazards to keep track of imo. Pompy is pretty slow and easy, and Skowl and Frederik don't heat up until round 3. Fugu can be a bit slow but there's a constant sense of tension there that the other fights don't share.

Actual battles in run n' jump games like TF, 2D Mario, Rayman, etc etc just don't work all that well because they do away with the core appeal of those games (great level design and mastery of the character's mobility). Something like Irate Eight or Crowded Cavern from DKCR would fair better as a boss level, even it wouldn't be as much of a boss "fight". I guess Sonic makes it out a bit better because those bosses tend to be absurdly short, and the longer ones (Heavy Gunner, etc) incorporate more platforming elements.

SavoryTruffle · May 13, 2018

ViewtifulJC said:
nobody's got anything on hating TF boss fights compared to this guy:

Thanks.

Finished the K stages and the bonus world. I totally want a full game of nothing but K stages. They're the best part of both Retro DK games and more than just one are goat platforming caliber.

Datajoy · May 13, 2018

I died a lot to the owl and monkey bosses, but I don't see where all the complaints come from. I died way more to regular levels than the bosses.

EDIT: NVM I think I misunderstood why people were complaining about the bosses.

legend166 · May 13, 2018

Getting gold on Bopopolis was really, really satisfying.

Equanimity · May 13, 2018

What a delightful platformer. I finished the first level in world/island 3 about an hour ago and I love it so far.

DioDaMando · May 13, 2018

Xtortion said:
TF's boss fights are a wash for me. They don't detract from the game, but I don't particularly enjoy them either. Most of them are pretty easy, but also are very slow and don't pose a consistent risk. The baboons and Bashmaster fair the best with some relatively fast paced hazards to keep track of imo. Pompy is pretty slow and easy, and Skowl and Frederik don't heat up until round 3. Fugu can be a bit slow but there's a constant sense of tension there that the other fights don't share.

Actual battles in run n' jump games like TF, 2D Mario, Rayman, etc etc just don't work all that well because they do away with the core appeal of those games (great level design and mastery of the character's mobility). Something like Irate Eight or Crowded Cavern from DKCR would fair better as a boss level, even it wouldn't be as much of a boss "fight". I guess Sonic makes it out a bit better because those bosses tend to be absurdly short, and the longer ones (Heavy Gunner, etc) incorporate more platforming elements.

These VILE,AWFUL, TEDIOUS boss fights could be made better if they were at least brief. These terrible bosses spit on my religion and shove my happiness face first into a broken glass infested sandbox of despair.

Calamari41 · May 13, 2018

I'd pay to be able to watch some of you guys play Cuphead, if you think these bosses are worth getting upset over.

Mary Celeste · May 13, 2018

I hated the bosses during my Wii U run of the game but I've been having a blast with them this go around. Nearing the end of World 4 now. I was worried going in because I remembered that they were water levels so I was expecting some slogs, but man these levels are all a ton of fun. even Shoal Atoll

ScOULaris · May 13, 2018

Calamari41 said:
I'd pay to be able to watch some of you guys play Cuphead, if you think these bosses are worth getting upset over.

I've 100%'ed Cuphead and loved it. Many of the bosses in Cuphead I cleared on the first try. This isn't a matter of difficulty. I think that the boss fights in Tropical Freeze are poorly designed, mainly because of how long and tedious they can be when one screw-up in the third phase can mean going through the motions all over again due to the lack of checkpoints. They'd be better designed if they offered more challenge but with checkpoints between phases. That way they would be more engaging without wasting the player's time.

This is all subjective, of course. I understand that not everyone hates them. I just really do, especially compared to the far superior platforming levels.

Calamari41 · May 13, 2018

ScOULaris said:
I've 100%'ed Cuphead and loved it. Many of the bosses in Cuphead I cleared on the first try. This isn't a matter of difficulty. I think that the boss fights in Tropical Freeze are poorly designed, mainly because of how long and tedious they can be when one screw-up in the third phase can mean going through the motions all over again due to the lack of checkpoints. They'd be better designed if they offered more challenge but with checkpoints between phases. That way they would be more engaging without wasting the player's time.

This is all subjective, of course. I understand that not everyone hates them. I just really do, especially compared to the far superior platforming levels.

I get what you're saying, and it's true that they're too difficult for the average player who is in the market for a Donkey Kong Country game. But, what you posted here also applies to Cuphead, which was the point I was making.

I was also able to beat some bosses on the first or second try, but there are also many bosses where there is a third phase attack where you don't know what it does or how to avoid it until you've already died from it.

ScOULaris · May 13, 2018

Calamari41 said:
I get what you're saying, and it's true that they're too difficult for the average player who is in the market for a Donkey Kong Country game. But, what you posted here also applies to Cuphead, which was the point I was making.

I was also able to beat some bosses on the first or second try, but there are also many bosses where there is a third phase attack where you don't know what it does or how to avoid it until you've already died from it.

Yeah, I see the comparison you're drawing with both games having bosses with multiple phases and no checkpoints. The difference, at least in my eyes, is that Cuphead boss fights are consistently engaging and fast-paced while the bosses in Tropical Freeze are slow, plodding, and oftentimes annoying. Cuphead bosses evoke that "one more try" impulse while Tropical Freeze bosses just make me go, "Fuck, I have to do this again?"

Calamari41 · May 13, 2018

ScOULaris said:
Yeah, I see the comparison you're drawing with both games having bosses with multiple phases and no checkpoints. The difference, at least in my eyes, is that Cuphead boss fights are consistently engaging and fast-paced while the bosses in Tropical Freeze are slow, plodding, and oftentimes annoying. Cuphead bosses evoke that "one more try" impulse while Tropical Freeze bosses just make me go, "Fuck, I have to do this again?"

Yeah, I see your point there, but the fights in this game kind of have to be slower than those in Cuphead because of the physics involved with playing as Donkey Kong.

One thing Cuphead has over this game is that if you're good enough in the former, you can sneak in hits at almost any point in the fight and not just when the boss is in a telegraphed "open to damage" pose.

Neiteio · May 14, 2018

Left off at World 4, which means I'm a few levels away from the majesty that is Amiss Abyss, and one world away from the GOAT Juicy Jungle.

ZiggyPalffyLA · May 14, 2018

Charlie0108 said:
Reading through some of the last few pages and I feel like I'm going crazy with all the Bopopolis rage. It's the easiest of the K levels by far in my opinion.

Nah the pendulum one is much easier. Bopopolis has less room for error, especially once you get to the final section. You can't sit back and wait to see what's ahead, you have to go go go

FutureLarking · May 14, 2018

Emily said:
Purchased this game earlier this morning.

Re-playing Tropical Freeze reminded me of just how talented Retro Studios really is. There's so many little details in each of the levels and worlds.

Let's not forget Monster Games too! Still hoping they can claw them back to work on DKCR 3 by themselves whilst Retro works on something else. (Or if Monster could work on F-Zero...)

Mary Celeste · May 14, 2018

World 4 is KONGplete. Best water world in gaming, easily. and I don't get the complaints about Fugu, that fight is really fun and really easy too (although wtf is going on with his resolution). Loved the K level too!

I remember World 5 being something truly special and so far it's been delivering. Reckless Ride is just incredible.

DragonKeeper · May 14, 2018

I like the bosses. I liked them in Returns too. Were there check points? If not, my suggestion to making them more palatable would be checkpoints. If you finish boss stage one then die on boss stage two, start back at stage two.

Datajoy · May 14, 2018

God damn, finally found the secret exit in

4-1 Deep Keep

I feel like an idiot for taking so long to find it (it seemed like something weird was going on with that part of the level), but still, that was an incredibly devious way to hide the exit lol. I hope the secret exits in subsequent worlds aren't this tricky.

TheMoon · May 14, 2018

ScOULaris said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

This game has the worst boss fights of any platformer. Ever. I say that without a shred of hyperbole.

They are joyless, plodding, overlong slogs that feel like they came from a different developer entirely. Awful.

But you're wrong so it's fine. :)

whatsinaname · May 14, 2018

Wtf!? I can't seem to figure out any way to hurt the W2 boss!? I am pulling my hair out and I feel so damned incompetent. I am resisting the urge to look up the solution online.

WestEgg · May 14, 2018

whatsinaname said:
Wtf!? I can't seem to figure out any way to hurt the W2 boss!? I am pulling my hair out and I feel so damned incompetent. I am resisting the urge to look up the solution online.

Throw the birds with egg shells on their heads at him.

ViewtifulJC · May 14, 2018

whatsinaname said:
Wtf!? I can't seem to figure out any way to hurt the W2 boss!? I am pulling my hair out and I feel so damned incompetent. I am resisting the urge to look up the solution online.

well you cant jump on it. or roll into it, clearly. So what other way can you attack enemies in this game besides physically coming into contact with them?

whatsinaname · May 14, 2018

WestEgg said:
Throw the birds with egg shells on their heads at him.

I really want to click this.

ViewtifulJC said:
well you cant jump on it. or roll into it, clearly. So what other way can you attack enemies in this game besides physically coming into contact with them?

Ah, I feel a little dumb now. I was trying to use cranky so I didn't think of what other actions were possible. Thanks for the hint!

super etrian odyssey · May 14, 2018

Up to World 6. For some reason, I stopped somewhere in World 3 on the Wii U when it came out, but I can't stop playing it now.

Fantastic game. I'm getting weirdly emotionally attached to it as I near the end. Part of me hopes Retro makes another DKC, be it their next game or the game after that -- I really want the Returns series to be a trilogy.

ShinobiBk · May 14, 2018

Couldn't hold out any longer and picked this up.
Is the first would supposed to be super easy? I haven't even reached the boss yet and I have 78 lives

NeonStars · May 14, 2018

ShinobiBk said:
Couldn't hold out any longer and picked this up.
Is the first would supposed to be super easy? I haven't even reached the boss yet and I have 78 lives

The lives are pointless. I wouldn't put too much stock into how many you have since the game gives you so many of them. But yeah the 1st world is considerably easier than the rest of the game, which doesn't really ramp up until world 3 or so.

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