Cornell Student Strips to Underwear for Thesis After Prof Questions Outfit

DiipuSurotu said:

The OP is selective in its quoting of the article. The professor did NOT say the "male gaze" part.

According to a statement written by 11 of the other 13 students in Maggor's class that day, the situation may have gone down a bit differently than Chai wrote on Facebook.

They wrote that while Maggor made "an error in phrasing," she had "apologized on more than one occasion." The students added that Chai's post did not "adequately represent [Maggor's] past and continued advocacy for women and minorities."

"Our intention in writing this letter is in no way to invalidate any of Letitia's experience," the statement reads. "We strongly support and identify with Letitia's fight for equality ... The majority of us are students of color, from multi-ethnic backgrounds, who very much relate to Letitia's frustration with systemic oppression that is part of the fabric of this country. We do not want to discredit her narrative. However, we feel it is important and our obligation to share our impression of Wednesday's events to provide a fair representation of the situation."

Below is an excerpt from the students' statement detailing how the conversation in question happened (scroll below to read the letter in full):

Letitia stood up to give her speech. Before she began, our professor asked Letitia if she would wear "those shorts" to her actual presentation on Saturday. Our professor regularly asks all of the students, male and female, such questions to clarify appropriate attire for public speaking. Our professor went on to say that what you wear and how you present yourself make a statement. She noted that if you were to wear jean shorts to your thesis presentation, that is a statement. Her focus on attire was a means of noting the importance of professionalism in certain public speaking situations.

Our professor acknowledged the discomfort of speaking overtly about attire and perception, especially for women, and encouraged us to share our thoughts and opinions. Students began discussing their beliefs on the matter. Letitia became visibly upset by our professor's earlier comments, and after one male international student's comment (mentioned in her post), she left the room. From the initial comments to Letitia's exit, only a few minutes had passed, and many people were speaking at once. Tensions were high, and neither our professor nor Letitia was able to adequately defend her position.

After Letitia left, our professor listened and agreed with many of the student's comments and criticisms. She wholeheartedly agreed that her initial comment was about professionalism rather than the "male gaze" mentioned in the student discussion. She also apologized for her choice of words, acknowledging that the notion of "short shorts" on women carries a lot of cultural and political baggage. Unfortunately, because Letitia was not in the room, she was not able to hear these comments, and we believe this contributed to the miscommunication.​

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Sure that might paint it as miscommunication, but how many days after that did the professor have to reach out to directly apologize and or clarify her statement. Email, the next class.

The student is clearly in the wrong here. I think the professor was trying to make a salient point, and the student then took it in a completely different direction, and unfortunately made this into a much larger and more serious issue than it had any right to be. (Mentioning the professors gender and race, I mean, really now?)

I can understand the argument that "dress shouldn't matter" in that you should only evaluate a person for who they are, but the reality is that it dress does matter if you are evaluating someone. How we dress is a matter of self-expression, it says something about ourselves. Dressing professionally and to portray a particular role is of critical importance when you are presenting yourself to strangers. That first impression is of how you look and it's imperative that you look the part. Otherwise it shows that you don't take it seriously.

Dressing in shorts for a thesis presentation is entirely unaccepable and unprofessional. If I showed up to my job in jeans, let alone shorts, patients would never take me seriously. And that is very fair. I'm not going out to hang out with friends, I'm there to give a professional opinion. And the way I dress to express that also varies as a result.

I think the fact that so many students are also challenging what seems to be a cherry picked account from the aggrieved student's Facebook account also speaks volumes about how they need to self reflect on what the actual reason for the reprimand was, and that their response, while perhaps well intentioned, was also entirely inappropriate.

NorthandSouth said:

The student is clearly in the wrong here. I think the professor was trying to make a salient point, and the student then took it in a completely different direction, and unfortunately made this into a much larger and more serious issue than it had any right to be. (Mentioning the professors gender and race, I mean, really now?)

I can understand the argument that "dress shouldn't matter" in that you should only evaluate a person for who they are, but the reality is that it dress does matter if you are evaluating someone. How we dress is a matter of self-expression, it says something about ourselves. Dressing professionally and to portray a particular role is of critical importance when you are presenting yourself to strangers. That first impression is of how you look and it's imperative that you look the part. Otherwise it shows that you don't take it seriously.

Dressing in shorts for a thesis presentation is entirely unaccepable and unprofessional. If I showed up to my job in jeans, let alone shorts, patients would never take me seriously. And that is very fair. I'm not going out to hang out with friends, I'm there to give a professional opinion. And the way I dress to express that also varies as a result.

I think the fact that so many students are also challenging what seems to be a cherry picked account from the aggrieved student's Facebook account also speaks volumes about how they need to self reflect on what the actual reason for the reprimand was, and that their response, while perhaps well intentioned, was also entirely inappropriate.

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I agree. However, it's not just about how your present yourself but also about showing respect to your coworkers. Showing skin is a sign of dominance, and showing up like that in a situation where everyone has agreed to dress neutrally as possible is disrespectful. I'm sure a woman wouldn't feel comfortable if their male coworker showed up wearing a tank top and showing off their ripped biceps. It comes off as aggressive and domineering.

This kinda rubs me the wrong way after reading the other students' version. Seems like she has some issues and the professor wasn't doing anything wrong.

Turning that small comment into some kind of "protest" seems excessive.

"The professor proceeded to tell me, in front of my whole class, that I was inviting the male gaze away from the content of my presentation and onto my body"

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I dont' think stripping almost nude uninvites the male gaze, actually does the opposite but good for her.

This archaic people needs to dress professionally in a professional setting is bunch of old wife's tale baloney. I knew a ceo wore jeans and sneakers in meetings with clients and guess what? It didn't matter one bit. In the end, money talks and if your company is providing services people wanted to do business with, deals will be made. Wearing monkey suits and tie a noose around your necks is something some crazy fuck came up with and everyone blindly followed thinking it mattered.

NorthandSouth said:

The student is clearly in the wrong here. I think the professor was trying to make a salient point, and the student then took it in a completely different direction, and unfortunately made this into a much larger and more serious issue than it had any right to be. (Mentioning the professors gender and race, I mean, really now?)

I can understand the argument that "dress shouldn't matter" in that you should only evaluate a person for who they are, but the reality is that it dress does matter if you are evaluating someone. How we dress is a matter of self-expression, it says something about ourselves. Dressing professionally and to portray a particular role is of critical importance when you are presenting yourself to strangers. That first impression is of how you look and it's imperative that you look the part. Otherwise it shows that you don't take it seriously.

Dressing in shorts for a thesis presentation is entirely unaccepable and unprofessional. If I showed up to my job in jeans, let alone shorts, patients would never take me seriously. And that is very fair. I'm not going out to hang out with friends, I'm there to give a professional opinion. And the way I dress to express that also varies as a result.

I think the fact that so many students are also challenging what seems to be a cherry picked account from the aggrieved student's Facebook account also speaks volumes about how they need to self reflect on what the actual reason for the reprimand was, and that their response, while perhaps well intentioned, was also entirely inappropriate.

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Well said. I completely agree. My problem is that there was nothing being "challenged" here. No oppressive societal structure or misogyny or something. What was it, the right to wear jean shorts to work? If a dude showed up presenting his thesis looking like fucking Richard Simmons, the reaction from anyone (let alone professor) wouldnt be any different.

By the way, the students' letter was signed by 11 of the 14 students in class. The remaining 3 classmates are Chai herself, the international student mentioned in her post, and one student who was absent on the day of the incident.

Shin Bobo Dakes said:

Sure that might paint it as miscommunication, but how many days after that did the professor have to reach out to directly apologize and or clarify her statement. Email, the next class.

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It says the other students in the class came out.

Their response reads like we like what she is doing, but she is turning this into something its not.

cgcg said:

This archaic people needs to dress professionally in a professional setting is bunch of old wife's tale baloney. I knew a ceo wore jeans and sneakers in meetings with clients and guess what? It didn't matter one bit. In the end, money talks and if your company is providing services people wanted to do business with, deals will be made. Wearing monkey suits and tie a noose around your necks is something some crazy fuck came up with and everyone blindly followed thinking it mattered.

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If you run the company, you can do whatever you please. If you're directed to dress professionally and you don't, guess what, you're probably getting written up or sent home.

shintoki said:

It says the other students in the class came out.

Their response reads like we like what she is doing, but she is turning this into something its not.

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Of course they do.

Sure, it's a protest, but I'm not gonna act like I didn't raise both eyebrows when I saw the picture.

Again, who took those?

cj_iwakura said:

If you run the company, you can do whatever you please. If you're directed to dress professionally and you don't, guess what, you're probably getting written up or sent home.

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Yeah, it's up to the company, but the default "you NEED to dress professionally to be taken seriously" is super archaic. There are people much much much much smarter and more successful than any of us who only ever wear jeans.

What was sexual about her outfit in the first ? It looks normal

DiipuSurotu said:

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I cannot stop laughing at this. First time seeing it - haha.

This will be used so much during E3 won't it?

Edit: concerning the argument/protest... professional attire is a strange definition to begin with. It's a norm that is seldom questioned.

The best thing Silicon Valley has done is normalize casual workplace clothing tbh.

What a thoroughly fabricated "protest" and "outrage". I guess the student is going to use the "right to forget" feature in a few years once it becomes apparent the past is going to haunt her professional life (and possibly personnal, although I hope it doesn't)

Some businesses after seeing this,
aren't gonna hire her.

Some businesses will though...

The student should punished under Title IX.

Sexy Fish said:

Yeah, but in the OP the last two quotes seems like "she said she said" when in actuality the professor has almost all of Chai's classmates backing her perspective up. It allows initial dogpiling and pitchforking, and we know plenty of people only read the first post to get a reaction in.

But you're right, it'll definitely weed out people.

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It's not the majority of the students backing up the teacher; it's the majority of those who didn't strip. There were 44 people in the room (students plus teacher and Letitia), and 28 of the students joined in the protest. Afterwards 11 out of remaining 13 students wrote a letter. The majority of the students in the class stripped alongside Letitia.

Why didn't she have the courage to go naked? Defecate on the projector? Who is making all these archaic "rules" about proper etiquette? Bring down the patriarchy!

Ogodei said:

"Then 28 of the 44 people in the room also took off their clothes"

Both inspiring and deeply hilarious.

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I can imagine being one of the 16 going.

"Look, I'm with y'all, but you guys clearly have your summer bodies ready, whereas I'm like not there yet, you don't want my shirt off, it's just better."

Heshinsi said:

It's not the majority of the students backing up the teacher; it's the majority of those who didn't strip. There were 44 people in the room (students plus teacher and Letitia), and 28 of the students joined in the protest. Afterwards 11 out of remaining 13 students wrote a letter. The majority of the students in the class stripped alongside Letitia.

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No, you misread.

Then 28 of the 44 people in the room also took off their clothes, The Cornell Sun reported. Although Chai's protest happened last week, her story didn't hit national news until Thursday.

The protest came just days after Chai was presenting a trial run of her thesis in her class "Acting in Public: Performance in Everyday Life" on May 2. When Chai went to give her trial run presentation, professor Rebekah Maggor questioned the student's outfit choice.

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The students from the trial run wrote it and were the majority. She only stripped during the actual presentation.

A.By said:

Her protest, regardless of the inciting incident, is entirely valid.

There seems to be more animosity for the student by people on Era than there is between the student and professor.

It also reminds of Mark Wahlberg holding the production of that one movie hostage. So many people talk about his moxie to extort money from the production company. Here, a student is using this as a platform to make a point that is valid regardless of any potential miscommunication, and it legitimately seems to cause offense. No one's getting fired, and no one seems to be seeking her dismissal.

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Sadly, on Era, most aren't ready to have this discussion. I've learned that the hard way.

For some reason, dudes get mad when you try to tell them that women shouldn't be held accountable for how men react to their attire.

Sexy Fish said:

No, you misread.


The students from the trial run was the majority.

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But it says:

"According to a statement written by 11 of the other 13 students in Maggor's class that day,"

What's this in reference to if not the 28 who protested. 44 people in the room (it doesn't say they're all students), 28 strip, and you're left with 16 people. Take out prof, Letitia, and one more non student person, and you have your 13 other students. Of which 11 then wrote a letter. I'm confused lol.

Oops

Heshinsi said:

But it says:

"According to a statement written by 11 of the other 13 students in Maggor's class that day,"

What's this in reference to if not the 28 who protested. 44 people in the room (it doesn't say they're all students), 28 strip, and you're left with 16 people. Take out prof, Letitia, and one more non student person, and you have your 13 other students. Of which 11 then wrote a letter. I'm confused lol.

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Cornell University student Letitia Chai stripped down to her underwear while delivering a presentation this week after a professor reportedly told her that her shorts were "too short" just days earlier.

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It was the trial run where she didn't strip. Those students made a statement about the trial run where the miscommunication happened. 11 of the other 13 students in class THAT DAY. There were 14 including Chai.

Sexy Fish said:

It was the trial run where she didn't strip. Those students made a statement about the trial run where the miscommunication happened. 11 of the other 13 students in class THAT DAY. There were 14 including Chai.

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Oh ok now I understand. I was thinking it was a constant class size. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

Fuu said:

People thinking the professor was just telling her to "dress professionally" aren't reading the OP.

Cornell University student Letitia Chai stripped down to her underwear while delivering a presentation this week after a professor reportedly told her that her shorts were "too short" just days earlier. About two dozen of Chai's fellow students joined in.

Letitia Chai:
"The professor proceeded to tell me, in front of my whole class, that I was inviting the male gaze away from the content of my presentation and onto my body," she wrote on Facebook, noting that her professor is a white woman. "She said I was making a statement by wearing my outfit. I told her that I sure as hell wouldn't change my statement to make her or anyone else feel more comfortable."

Rebekah Maggor:
"I do not tell my students what to wear, nor do I define for them what constitutes appropriate dress," she said. "I ask them to reflect for themselves and make their own decisions."​

It was specifically about her shorts being too short and making men horny.

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This is completely fine. Most workplaces would not allow shorts, let alone short shorts. "Professional attire" isn't supposed to be sexy, and that's true for both sexes.

SegFault said:

We should all go back to wearing suits for everything again.

Fuck being comfortable! It's how it was in the good ol days!

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Because clearly the only two possible options are "everybody always wears a suit with everything" and "people go to work in their underwear." If only there were a happy medium someplace that society could establish as a norm.

cgcg said:

This archaic people needs to dress professionally in a professional setting is bunch of old wife's tale baloney. I knew a ceo wore jeans and sneakers in meetings with clients and guess what? It didn't matter one bit. In the end, money talks and if your company is providing services people wanted to do business with, deals will be made. Wearing monkey suits and tie a noose around your necks is something some crazy fuck came up with and everyone blindly followed thinking it mattered.

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I'm not one for formalities, but if I was going to the doctor and he walked in wearing JNCOs and an ICP tank top, I'm finding a new doctor

Here's a drawing with the girl and the male gazer

TheIlliterati said:

Why didn't she have the courage to go naked? Defecate on the projector? Who is making all these archaic "rules" about proper etiquette? Bring down the patriarchy!

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This thread is fucking embarassing.

There really is a Simpsons gif for everything.

I'm all for the woman's stance against being viewed as a sex object or being judged differently based on her gender, but it seems her reaction was based on a misunderstanding of what the professor was saying.

But if some positive change comes from her speaking out, good on her.

ehf said:

I dont' think stripping almost nude uninvites the male gaze, actually does the opposite but good for her.

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The sentiment is quite the opposite- it's "Objectify if you fucking dare. Whether my attire distracts the males in this classroom is their problem and not mine, and I won't follow norms that demand me to police how I behave so that I don't inconvenience people. Actually, screw you, I'll do the exact opposite and strip down into my fucking underwear and it's none of your fucking business, none of my problem."

Whether the professor is right is something else- "What you wear makes a statement" can be interpreted both as pointing out the need for formal attire (a justified comment, especially if the prof. has a history with it), and as veiled shaming of how the student dresses (fucking unacceptable). There appear to be conflicting accounts of just what the professor meant, so I don't think I can come to a judgment on that front.

But I am glad that this has spun off into a larger discussion about double standards in dress codes and how women's attire is judged.

In past experiences, there's been a massive double standard regarding acceptable work attire between genders. Women would dress downright trashy at an office I worked at, but would get away with it because calling them out on it could be seen as harassment.

Wrapped in Black said:

This thread is fucking embarassing.

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There are social norms for a reason. Its not that women should police themselves and men should have free reign. The teacher pointed out a fundamental truth that would not be changed no matter how much anyone would desire it to be so. You think wearing your underwear at a business meeting is a powerful statement of how men shouldn't notice that and judge you on your work only? Guess what, you're living in a fantasy, no matter how right you are.

I don't get nor follow her line of thinking but I respect her for being brave.

Making one of the students a case study in a class called "Acting in Public: Performance in Everyday Life" while the all attention is fixated on her is extremely stupid, especially when the initial trigger for the discussion is a statement with ambiguous intent.

It appears the professor also doubled down with a terse meaningless statement.

Kudos to the student for not wilting at the face of perceived injustice from an authoritative figure and in the process sparking a needed discussion about sex inequality but I wish she hadn't muddled the message by trying to tie it to racism.

I think it's funny whenever there's a story about a grad student going outside the box for their thesis, it usually ends with the professor respecting what they did and passing them, but that won't stop all these guys on the Internet explaining why it was wrong!

SegFault said:

We should all go back to wearing suits for everything again.

Fuck being comfortable! It's how it was in the good ol days!

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It's a shame men get the most comfortable option of jeans and a t-shirt.

You're expected to dress professionally during a formal presentation, that should be a no brainer, but I do think the professor handled things wrong.

Dress codes are so wack. Nothing but sweatpants and sneakers to all classes and any presentations.

cgcg said:

This archaic people needs to dress professionally in a professional setting is bunch of old wife's tale baloney. I knew a ceo wore jeans and sneakers in meetings with clients and guess what? It didn't matter one bit. In the end, money talks and if your company is providing services people wanted to do business with, deals will be made. Wearing monkey suits and tie a noose around your necks is something some crazy fuck came up with and everyone blindly followed thinking it mattered.

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There's a ton of research that disagrees with this.

Aaron said:

I think it's funny whenever there's a story about a grad student going outside the box for their thesis, it usually ends with the professor respecting what they did and passing them, but that won't stop all these guys on the Internet explaining why it was wrong!

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Because those professors are one wrong sentence away from having their life's work go up in flames in this era.

Aaron said:

I think it's funny whenever there's a story about a grad student going outside the box for their thesis, it usually ends with the professor respecting what they did and passing them, but that won't stop all these guys on the Internet explaining why it was wrong!

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I think many people are drawing a separation between what she did in the class and how she should expect to present herself in the real world.

If she wants to make this statement at school, more power to her. If she wants to do this at a job interview to make a point about not being judged on how she presents herself...well, let's just say I hope her parents don't mind her moving back into their house while she remains unemployed.

I would have undermined her point by wolf whistling and shouting HUBBA HUBBA

Chai's point is fantastic but that wasn't the time to make it.

Real Hero said:

I would have undermined her point by wolf whistling and shouting HUBBA HUBBA

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That says a lot about your character. Nothing great either, I'm afraid.

Of course people can wear whatever they like, but sometimes it feels men have engineered a kind Stockholm Syndrome effect.

Be free women from the shackles and oppression of man, be free! But wear something sexy!!

I'm often left wondering why women wear knickers on the pole vault, running and other sports.
Surely if there was an advantage men would be wearing them as well.

And don't get me started on the lack of bum coverage on modern female
Ice skaters.

As a gentlemen I just find I don't know where to look!!

NorthandSouth said:

The student is clearly in the wrong here. I think the professor was trying to make a salient point, and the student then took it in a completely different direction, and unfortunately made this into a much larger and more serious issue than it had any right to be. (Mentioning the professors gender and race, I mean, really now?)

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That's my take as well.

But whatever. Some people go apeshit when they feel like they've been rebuffed or disrespected.

Dress better, feel better

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dress-for-success-how-clothes-influence-our-performance/

If you want to be a big-ideas person at work, suit up. A paper in August 2015 in Social Psychological and Personality Science asked subjects to change into formal or casual clothing before cognitive tests. Wearing formal business attire increased abstract thinking—an important aspect of creativity and long-term strategizing. The experiments suggest the effect is related to feelings of power.

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The article says its not about the actual clothes, but for the empowerment from seeing yourself look good.

Real Hero said:

I would have undermined her point by wolf whistling and shouting HUBBA HUBBA

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That's crass.

I'd just take a seat in pervert's row.