Merkel Says Europe Can't Count on U.S. Military Umbrella Anymore

Zip · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
This is only missing the «reconciliate both Korea part.»

???

So...you're saying north and south Korea possibly making progress in negotiations is...another check box on the list of warning signs for rising fascism. Of which the U.S. has already checked off almost all the others.

Sounds like you agree the U.S. is in some increasingly deep shit then!

Enazrat · May 11, 2018

GAMEPROFF said:
Yes, but going the fourth reich analogy is always a sign that he person who talks that stuff has more then nonsenstical worldviews

Lot of certitudes this is amazing. Personnal attack and «cut this shit» talk are authorized only for those who side with the morally and socialy accepted opinion apparently.

Are you bringing anything to the discussion ? Unfortunately not. But you have the common accepted opinion so it does not matter, you can shitpost and attack people on the internet.

Trickster · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
At least you see how stupid those kind of lists are.

This post makes no sense, but I guess that's about what to expect

Anarion07 · May 11, 2018

O-Zips said:
???

So...you're saying north and south Korea possibly making progress in negotiations is...another check box on the list of warning signs for rising fascism. Of which the U.S. has already checked off almost all the others.

Nah. He was basically praising Trump for reconciliating. So he was being sarcastic and implying USA can't be fascist if it has that check box ticket.

Enazrat · May 11, 2018

MadJakeChurchill said:
Unless it's in a region that's geopolitically advantageous to the US, then they can be weirdly fascistic all they want and never face trial for human experiments (Japan).

Seriously. The German society of today is nothing like 75 years ago. It's a country dedicated to non-intervention wherever possible and promotion of respect for human rights. While I think the talk of Merkel as a progressive figure (Wir schaffen das) is extremely overblown, and while it is facing a crisis of populism like every country in Europe, it has learned enough lessons from history that this shit won't happen again. I guarantee it.

My concern is with the other European countries that didn't have to learn a lesson from history on how to properly behave.

Odds talk again. First you can never know and the less have WMD the better anyway.
But this is not about odds. This is about history and moral responsability.

Giving WMD to a country who did that is diluting what they did. We shall never forget and a permanent interdiction of WMD is good reminder. More efficient than museum by the way, and not hurting the country nowdays.

Zip · May 11, 2018

Anarion07 said:
Nah. He was basically praising Trump for reconciliating. So he was being sarcastic and implying USA can't be fascist if it has that check box ticket.

Oh I know what he was trying to say. I'm just pointing out how irrelevant and illogical his attempted point is.

Funky Papa · May 11, 2018

Lucc said:
It's funny considering Germany only has 4 ready for battle Eurofighter Jets, the helicopter pilots loosing their licenses because they can't renew them with broken helicopters, the Bundeswehr being equipped with rifles that supposedly overheat when used and numerous sexual humiliation and racist incidents shaking the morale and support.

Yeah, this is gonna be tricky..

IIRC the problem with the G36 wasn't with the rifle, but Germany sourcing low grade ammunition. Other countries such as Spain have yet to experience similar issues. It's the same with the A400M. Spain and France operate them in several places, including austere airfields in Africa, yet somehow it became a colossal problem for the Luftwaffe.

Germany's track record of maintenance and systems integration leaves a lot to be desired and should be one of the first things to be addressed if Merkel is being serious.

Klyka · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
Odds talk again. First you can never know and the less have WMD the better anyway.
But this is not about odds. This is about history and moral responsability.

Giving WMD to a country who did that is diluting what they did. We shall never forget and a permanent interdiction of WMD is good reminder. More efficient than museum by the way, and not hurting the country nowdays.

Which country are you from?

Red Arremer · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
Odds talk again. First you can never know and the less have WMD the better anyway.
But this is not about odds. This is about history and moral responsability.

Giving WMD to a country who did that is diluting what they did. We shall never forget and a permanent interdiction of WMD is good reminder. More efficient than museum by the way, and not hurting the country nowdays.

So I take it you are from France going by your post history.
How about this: Napoleon slaughtered millions of soldiers and civilians during the Napoleonic wars because of his megalomania. France should immediately have their nukes taken away - after all, history matters.

DryCreek · May 11, 2018

Enazrat · May 11, 2018

Anarion07 said:
Nah. He was basically praising Trump for reconciliating. So he was being sarcastic and implying USA can't be fascist if it has that check box ticket.

Lmao.
You still can't see how a check list is dumb enough to predict fascism, and now you are saying I am praising Trump.

It's ok, keep looking at reality with your premade lists that tell you what is fascist and what is not.

Reality wise, you still have to tell us how is US a fascist coutry or even becoming one. But if the lists says it is it should be.

MadJakeChurchill · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
Odds talk again. First you can never know and the less have WMD the better anyway.
But this is not about odds. This is about history and moral responsability.

Giving WMD to a country who did that is diluting what they did. We shall never forget and a permanent interdiction of WMD is good reminder. More efficient than museum by the way, and not hurting the country nowdays.

If you are from Western Europe, you have zero ground to stand on.
And Trump did precisely FA on the Korean issue. That was all domestic effort with Chinese blessing.

Zip · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
Lmao.
You still can't see how a check list is dumb enough to predict fascism, and now you are saying I am praising Trump.

It's ok, keep looking at reality with your premade lists that tell you what is fascist and what is not.

Reality wise, you still have to tell us how is US a fascist coutry or even becoming one. But if the lists says it is it should be.

You're right - no reason to be alarmed! Back to lives of pure relaxation everyone! Don't bother being cautious of potential dangers. Here, let's go take some selfies with those bears over there...

Enazrat · May 11, 2018

Red Arremer said:
So I take it you are from France going by your post history.
How about this: Napoleon slaughtered millions of soldiers and civilians during the Napoleonic wars because of his megalomania. France should immediately have their nukes taken away - after all, history matters.

«Napoleon slaughtered civilians because megalomania.»
Hmm, which kind of history classes did you attend to ?

Do you feel confortable comparing mass extermination based on ethnicity and casualties of war of the XIX century between very debatable government on both sides ?

Lmao this is sad. Between this and the list guy, one could wish History was so simple. But it is not.

Funky Papa · May 11, 2018

The debate about American toying with fascism is kind of moot. The fact is that it no longer is a reliable ally and it's currently veering towards the kind of authoritarianism that would spell trouble if it weren't for a virtually even political split.

The EU values stability and predictability above everything else. Trump's America is precisely the contrary and that's the reason we should be moving away from it. Not just in terms of defence.

Red Arremer · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
Lmao.
You still can't see how a check list is dumb enough to predict fascism, and now you are saying I am praising Trump.

It's ok, keep looking at reality with your premade lists that tell you what is fascist and what is not.

Reality wise, you still have to tell us how is US a fascist coutry or even becoming one. But if the lists says it is it should be.

A few indicators that Trump is veering the US towards authoritarianism:
* Trump said just last night that he wants to ignore the 22nd amendment of the US constitution, and is considering extending the length of the presidency
* Trump stands for nationalism, and has empowered racists across the US to be openly racist
* Trump has directly targeted minorities such as transgender people or immigrants/dreamers
* Trump constantly tries to discredit the media ("fake news") and deflecting blame onto the political opponents
* Trump gives important political positions to cronies and family members

Enazrat said:
«Napoleon slaughtered civilians because megalomania.»
Hmm, which kind of history classes did you attend to ?

Do you feel confortable comparing mass extermination based on ethnicity and casualties of war of the XIX century between very debatable government on both sides ?

Lmao this is sad. Between this and the list guy, one could wish History was so simple. But it is not.

Out of all the countries in Europe, Germany is by far one of the most stable governments. There is far less danger from Germany sliding back into fascism than there is from the Visegrad bloc or yes, even France. After all, the French barely scraped by having Marine Le Pen as president. Meanwhile, the nationalist AfD in Germany only has around 10% of the parliament seats.

I don't want Germany to have WMDs, in the same vein that I don't want anybody to have WMDs, but to go "Yeah well Hitler happened so obviously Germany will start making a Fourth Reich the second they get a nuke" and disregarding the last over 70 years of German development politically, economically and socially is being completely ignorant. Honestly, if anyone should "lmao" and say anything is sad, then it should be us, because clearly you have an absolutely delusional image of Germany.

Trickster · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
Lmao.
You still can't see how a check list is dumb enough to predict fascism, and now you are saying I am praising Trump.

It's ok, keep looking at reality with your premade lists that tell you what is fascist and what is not.

Reality wise, you still have to tell us how is US a fascist coutry or even becoming one. But if the lists says it is it should be.

I guess history only matters selectively to you then.

I also find it pretty hilarious how you seem to have taken that list, as me thinking I have posted some absolute proof that the US is totally becoming a fascist state. It's like you are completely unaware of what you said in the post I responded to with the list, and how the two relate.

entremet · May 11, 2018

It's a sweet setup for the EU. Merkel is just saying this because Trump is a wildcard idiot. Once we get a sensible President, it will be back to business.

artemis · May 11, 2018

What happened to this thread?

Deleted member 28564 · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
Odds talk again. First you can never know and the less have WMD the better anyway.
But this is not about odds. This is about history and moral responsability.

Giving WMD to a country who did that is diluting what they did.

What odds? By what metric are you calculating the odds of Germany resurrecting fascist policies? Furthermore, there are an innumerable amount of tragedies committed by the world over. France's colonisation of Africa can be used as an example. Should France henceforth be penalised in perpetuity for this?

artemis said:
What happened to this thread?

Selective application of history.

Deleted member 36937 · May 11, 2018

Red Arremer said:
Trump said just last night that he wants to ignore the 22nd amendment of the US constitution, and is considering extending the length of the presidency

I already know this a total lie, but I will ask you to please provide this quote if him SAYING "he wants to ignore the 22nd amendment and is CONSIDERING extending the length of the Presidency."

You are not talking in truths. Just twisting words to get what you want to support your argument.

He made a joke about the media and how they would be thrilled if his presidency somehow got extended. He said nothing that you just expressed. You are either misinformed or outright twisting words to argue in bad faith.

Hazzuh · May 11, 2018

entremet said:
It's a sweet setup for the EU. Merkel is just saying this because Trump is a wildcard idiot. Once we get a sensible President, it will be back to business.

No it won't. The USA is now totally unpredictable on a timescale longer than 4 years. Even if the next president is reliable the USA isn't trustworthy anymore.

Red Arremer · May 11, 2018

Corrik said:
I already know this a total lie, but I will ask you to please provide this quote if him SAYING "he wants to ignore the 22nd amendment and is CONSIDERING extending the length of the Presidency."

You are not talking in truths. Just twisting words to get what you want to support your argument.

He made a joke about the media and how they would be thrilled if his presidency somehow got extended. He said nothing that you just expressed. You are either misinformed or outright twisting words to argue in bad faith.

Here you go:

He didn't literally say that he wants to ignore the 22nd amendment, sure, but if he got the suggested extension past 8 years, he would be.
And I want you to please provide solid proof that it was a joke, and not serious.

Wamb0wneD · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
At least you see how stupid those kind of lists are.

So you think someone made that list after he saw those signs in the US? Did it occur to you that those are actually signs of fascism and that they just happen to apply to the US? No? Ok.

entremet · May 11, 2018

Hazzuh said:
No it won't. The USA is now totally unpredictable on a timescale longer than 4 years. Even if the next president is reliable the USA isn't trustworthy anymore.

Hyperbole. US Military policy is extremely predictable. Protect white countries and turn a blind eye or invade black and brown countries. I say this as a realist and critic of US Military policy. The US Military policy since Vietnam has not changed much.

Feral · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
I think Germany could show some signs towards its partners that it's not using euros and EU rules only for its own interest therefore creating an economical reich.

holy shit, lol
I find this post too funny to report it

BlackLagoon · May 11, 2018

entremet said:
It's a sweet setup for the EU. Merkel is just saying this because Trump is a wildcard idiot. Once we get a sensible President, it will be back to business.

That's what we thought after Bush put significant strains on the relaitonship. And Obama was very nice, but the Republican party shows no sign of getting back to business. They and their electorate seems to want this shit, the bullying head of state, the authoritarianism, and there's been reports of congressional Republicans realining themselves in support of him as the old guard is retning.

Even when another sensible democrat is presumably elected after Trump, there's every reason to believe that voters will become disillusioned with the Democrats once they realize all their problems haven't magically been solved and want to try the other guys again. And god only knows what that will look like.

Deleted member 36937 · May 11, 2018

Red Arremer said:
Here you go:

He didn't literally say that he wants to ignore the 22nd amendment, sure, but if he got the suggested extension past 8 years, he would be.
And I want you to please provide solid proof that it was a joke, and not serious.

Maybe you should be getting your sources from actually where it came from and not from people who spin it on Twitter. The actual context is in the ResetERA thread regarding it. He was just making a joking jab at the media about all their fake news and negative attention and how they wish he could get an extension because he is driving their ratings.

I mean, you seem to be unsure of what is actually said, so making such a sweeping claim of authoritativism from it is not wise until you are sure of what you are talking about, especially when you lead with it. Whether any of your points further or true or not, you have casted doubt already into your sincerity or bias based on taking such an obvious spin right off the lead.

What I mean is, you may be making good arguments, but you debased them by making a wild accusation at the start to make your credibility be questioned.

Frankfurter · May 11, 2018

Where did this Germany getting nukes thing come from lol? It's such a useless debate. Germany is signatory of the NPT, has repeatedly stated that it does not wish to ever get nukes and has also declined offers from France in participating on their nukes.

DryCreek · May 11, 2018

Kthulhu · May 11, 2018

ChryZ said:
Putin: "I love it when a plan comes together!", while rubbing his hands.

Pretty sure a competent EU military is the last thing he wants.

tuxfool · May 11, 2018

Corrik said:
He made a joke about the media and how they would be thrilled if his presidency somehow got extended. He said nothing that you just expressed. You are either misinformed or outright twisting words to argue in bad faith.

Given his other "Jokes", he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.

Pulp · May 11, 2018

As long as the US want to sell military equipment to NATO countries they have to be a part of it. It's not a deal you just pull out of even if Trump thinks it.

moonknight93 · May 11, 2018

An EU Army is unfeasible. Under whose authority would they operate, with what objectives and with what rules of engagement? Each country in Europe have their own areas of interests. Baltic and eastern european are interested in the border with Russia, Greece is worried with Turkey, Italy's interest is the Mediterrean, France's interests are Mali and Niger, etc...

moonknight93 · May 11, 2018

Innidaros said:
As long as the US want to sell military equipment to NATO countries they have to be a part of it. It's not a deal you just pull out of even if Trump thinks it.

The US is not the only country inside NATO who sells weapons. And they also buy.

https://www.fincantieri.com/en/medi...act-to-fincantieri-to-evolve-fremm-into-ffgx/

Riboflavin · May 11, 2018

Nice try, Germany.

Twice in one century was more than enough.

Pulp · May 11, 2018

moonknight93 said:
The US is not the only country inside NATO who sells weapons. And they also buy.

https://www.fincantieri.com/en/medi...act-to-fincantieri-to-evolve-fremm-into-ffgx/

Yes, I know. The whole buying and selling weapons within NATO is what makes the whole alliance pretty hard to just leave.

Deleted member 15933 · May 11, 2018

Enazrat said:
Cut that shit ? No. It's my opinion. Deal with it.

History matters.

And more recent history matters more. Undoubtedly, France has had a more troublesome history after WW2 than Germany, culminating in the almost election of LePen. So... are you arguing in favor of handing over French nukes to Germany, or what?

Obviously I'm facetious here, but your concern trolling is too unbearable to stay silent to.

Erik Twice · May 11, 2018

moonknight93 said:
Under whose authority would they operate with what objectives and with what rules of engagement?

Under the authority of the High Representative of the Union of Foreignen Affairs and Security Policy, following the objectives listed on the European Union Global Strategy or current equivalent. Rules of engagement are established after a request by the EU Operation Commander is approved unanimously by the Council.

Not making it up, it's how it's already is. The EU army, like Europol has existed in an embrionary state for years and has evolved over time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy#History

Deleted member 9305 · May 11, 2018

Kthulhu said:
Pretty sure a competent EU military is the last thing he wants.

What do you think is a bigger problem in his eyes, a competent EU military or stable trans-pacific alliance of US and EU?

witchedwiz · May 11, 2018

I'm not thrilled from this but if it's needed, it's needed..
i'm a bit unsure that nowdays germany has the mindset to be "coordinating" a war apparatus...
tell what you want about the us, but their upper echelon belligerant attitude has made it so that their "military department" is solid, if migsuided at times..
eu states individual "conflict buffer" (so machinery, experienced military and whatnot) is usually a bit lacking, either if not in training, in terms of real experience and in terms of instruments..
take germany and their navy//tanks... It was fine under the assumption that us loved their big brother role (and they DID have some perk out of this deal, let's be honest.. there are few countries in the NATO that could go into "no fuck was given" attitude like the US did with little to no consequences), but without them, EU technically needs an alternative..
imho clearly..

mael · May 11, 2018

i love the "OMG BEWARE OF FASCIST GERMANY!!!!" when the US have a sitting president praising nazis.

Brown Intruder · May 11, 2018

Hodgy said:
The US also asks from help from EU members too you know....

What, begging for help when Germany was banging on the door or defense from the Soviets?

Europe couldn't even stop the genocide in the balkans. It's time that Europe paid its dues in regard to defense.

Anarion07 · May 11, 2018

Riboflavin said:
Nice try, Germany.

Twice in one century was more than enough.

What are you trying to say here?

Where is all this Germanophobia coming from?

mael · May 11, 2018

Anarion07 said:
What are you trying to say here?

Where is all this Germanophobia coming from?

It's the shitty "ALL GERMANS ARE NAZIS" jokes that weren't even funny 10 years ago.

sprinkles · May 11, 2018

Anarion07 said:
What are you trying to say here?

Where is all this Germanophobia coming from?

It's getting ridiculous in here.

Kyougar · May 11, 2018

Germany could be the last bastion of democracy in the world and some people would still say we are all nazis.

Muffin · May 11, 2018

Riboflavin said:
Nice try, Germany.

Twice in one century was more than enough.

Not only keeping up this kind of shitposting, but even equating WW1 and WW2 in terms of responsibility. Quality trolling.

GSG · May 11, 2018

Germany with a competent military would be a legitimate superpower.

I'm all for the EU growing some teeth, the US's foreign policy is obviously not working and I find that European policy makers are generally more level headed and logical than American ones.

DryCreek · May 11, 2018

Merkel Says Europe Can't Count on U.S. Military Umbrella Anymore

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge

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