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lashman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
161
The Belgian Gaming Commission (BGC) has suggested that criminal prosecution should be undertaken against Electronic Arts, Valve, and Activision Blizzard over loot boxes in their respective games.

(...)

Although the BGC has suggested criminal prosecution first and foremost, it will not proceed until Belgian minister of justice Koen Geens has met with industry stakeholders to begin a dialogue on the issue.

(...)

Other recommendations from the BGC include developing specific permits for video games that feature loot boxes, and marking them accordingly. This is coupled with the suggestion of age verification in stores when purchasing codes or gift cards, and a principal ban on minors being able to purchase games featuring the mechanic.

Regarding distributors and operators, the BGC recommended that a clear indication of winning odds be provided and that its technical assessment team be granted complete control over the random number generators used for loot boxes.

Additional provisions over player data and payments were recommended, along with the introduction of a user spending limit.

License holders such as FIFA and Disney were also pulled up by the BGC, which suggested such companies pay closer attention to the sort of mechanics appearing in their games.

(...)

Taking Overwatch as an example: using real money, players can purchase loot boxes containing random collectable items, which constitutes a wager. The chance of a win or a loss concerns the wager itself versus the value of the items in the box. Despite being entirely aesthetic and not tradeable outside of the game, the items have player-ascribed value that is altered by artificial scarcity, limited edition items, and the four categories of rarity.

As Blizzard does not allow players to purchase credits directly, they are encouraged to purchase loot boxes containing in-game currency in order to obtain items faster than they would by just playing the game.

"The chance of losing your wager (the cost of the loot box) is, of course, ever-present now that testimonies and research have shown that players have a substantial chance of obtaining an object or item that they already own," the report reads.

The BGC calculated that, should a player wish to collect every item, they would have to open somewhere between 1,300 and 1,600 loot boxes.

(...)

"Both in the purchase of loot boxes and in the entire operation of the game, all of this can lead to pure manipulation of individuals or groups of players," the report reads. "The line between encouragement and manipulation is sometimes difficult to differentiate in an online environment where one party (game manufacturer/game platform) records almost everything and the consumer who plays the game rather passively from this perspective."

(...)

Many within the games industry have criticised the assumption that loot boxes which do not contain items of monetary value outside of the game constitute gambling, drawing comparisons to collectible card games such as Pokémon or Magic the Gathering.

"It might be considered as gambling, but in our legislation there is an exception for it," Naessens told GamesIndustry.biz. "So Pokémon cards, if they are going to introduce a wheel of fortune, roulette, or a blackjack game in order to determine the contents, it will also be problematic and we will examine it as well.

"But in our legislation, card or party games are exempt from gambling [legislation]. If Pokémon cards were to introduce the gambling element to their game, it would be very problematic as well."

Essentially, the BGC argues that players are "lured into betting money through loot boxes with a range of techniques".

(...)

Tying into this point is the use of limited edition items to drive loot box sales, and the use of game-specific currencies that are "psychologically very sophisticated" and fully disconnect the value of real money from the value of in-game currency.

Game operators failing to enforce a spending limit, combined with readily giving away free loot boxes in order to attract players was also considered a dangerous aspect of the mechanic.

Belgian Gaming Commission recommends criminal prosecution over illegal loot boxes
 

SaberVS7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,258
Yeah unless these kinds of laws cover the whole EU, EA and other publishers will just cut-off Belgium and other territories that are too small to make a real dent in the margins if excluded.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
"But in our legislation, card or party games are exempt from gambling [legislation]. If Pokémon cards were to introduce the gambling element to their game, it would be very problematic as well."

This doesn't make any sense. The gambling element is already present in Pokémon by nature of the packs itself.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,147
This doesn't make any sense. The gambling element is already present in Pokémon by nature of the packs itself.
Not technically. Like with MTG if you're willing to wait and then do the leg work you can actually know what's in every pack before opening a single one.

Very few people are going to actually bother with this, but that it's possible means it's not gambling.
 

Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
This doesn't make any sense. The gambling element is already present in Pokémon by nature of the packs itself.
The playing card industry successfully lobbied a legal exemption from gambling legislation, is what he's explaining, so they can't enforce against what would otherwise be illegal gambling.

They would have to add a mechanic that would get outside of that technicality.
 

TheWordyGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,623
I want to see this happen. The Belgian Gaming Commission thinks it can tell EA how to run its business.... that's ridiculous.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Not technically. Like with MTG if you're willing to wait and then do the leg work you can actually know what's in every pack before opening a single one.

Very few people are going to actually bother with this, but that it's possible means it's not gambling.
How does this work?
The playing card industry successfully lobbied a legal exemption from gambling legislation, is what he's explaining, so they can't enforce against what would otherwise be illegal gambling.

They would have to add a mechanic that would get outside of that technicality.
The legal exception makes sense to me, I was more referring to the bit about "introducing" gamlbing elements since that implies that they're already there. Could be a mistranslation though.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
The most important part is them speaking directly to FIFA and Disney

Neither organisation/company wants to be associated with criminal prosecution
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Audioboxer is from Belgium.

Coincidence?

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The BGC calculated that, should a player wish to collect every item, they would have to open somewhere between 1,300 and 1,600 loot boxes.

Not that anyone needs to collect everything, but yeah, this is why drop rate odds need to be transparent.
 

TheBaldwin

Member
Feb 25, 2018
8,291
Don't have much a problem with these

Make them clearer on the box, and make devs have to go through proper checks, and reveal the unlock percentages.
 

Brat-Sampson

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,469
User Warned: Don't call people paid trolls or shills
Good. Push harder. I hope more countries start pushing too.

I'm somehow still always surprised at the number of posts in these topics that seem to come from the corporate equivalent of a Russian troll farm.
 

Won

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,428
I like what I read there. They seem to have a good grasp on all the potential problems this current lootbox craze hold for the customer, without the fallacies some people here always want the discussion be about.
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,031
Good. Push harder. I hope more countries start pushing too.

I'm somehow still always surprised at the number of posts in these topics that seem to come from the corporate equivalent of a Russian troll farm.
BuT oVeRwAtCh WoNt GeT uPdAtEs WiThOuT lOoT cRaTeS aNd ExPlOiTiNg MiNoRs
I like what I read there. They seem to have a good grasp on all the potential problems this current lootbox craze hold for the customer, without the fallacies some people here always want the discussion be about.
yeah, the "but trading cards" line is the endless rebuttal to loot boxes
 

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,978
Not technically. Like with MTG if you're willing to wait and then do the leg work you can actually know what's in every pack before opening a single one.

Very few people are going to actually bother with this, but that it's possible means it's not gambling.
MtG boxes haven't been mappable for a long time.
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
Shouldn't the onus be on the consumer to not buy the illegal games?

They're not illegal anywhere else.
 

Deleted member 24118

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,920
Last played in Kahns where they were still getting mapped.

And 'haven't been mappable' or 'no one's figured out how to map them again yet'?

Whether or not they're mappable is irrelevant. MtG is exempted because the TCG industry got an exemption written into law, not because the government thinks they Aren't Technically Gambling.

"It might be considered as gambling, but in our legislation there is an exception for it...in our legislation, card or party games are exempt from gambling [legislation]
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
Are you suggesting grandma should be litigated because she bought little Bobby a game she didn't know was illegal in her country, yet EA was still allowed to ship the gane there and have it be sold on store shelves, because 'the onus is on the consumer'?
I mean like a website can sell fireworks, cannabis seeds, or any number of products that are legal in their area online, but if you order them to a place where they're illegal it's your problem? Games don't exist in a vacuum.

With they way you are thinking, if someone in Europe ships a can of beer to someone in Dubai, they should be arrested?
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I want to see this happen. The Belgian Gaming Commission thinks it can tell EA how to run its business.... that's ridiculous.

Actually it can. It's called law. If EA doesn't like it then they can fuck off out of Belgium.


I like everything i'm reading here and there's a lot in those measures that tells me the BGC knows exactly how these corporations manipulate these systems, which is a good place to start from.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,291
yeah, the "but trading cards" line is the endless rebuttal to loot boxes

Well, because it's accurate? The trading card industry in Belgium lobbied to get themselves immune to this particular law. If EA does the same (and they've said they'll try), does that get them off the hook in your eyes like trading cards are?