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Hearthstone |OT1| New Era, Same Meta
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Regarding Sunkeeper : This being a 3/7 minion on top of the effect is too much imo. I would make it 2/7 so trading your weakened minions into Tarim wont kill them. Other possible nerf would be to make it 3/6 or 3/5, so you only need two minions to effectively stomp their face into Tarim to kill it.
Dark pact being 2 mana: I think this is a buff lol, since it dodges Geist. It is true that turn 6 lackey+pact is gone but still...
I would never touch Doomguard, it will be equivalent of touching Fireball, it is too iconic to change it now.
Voidlord is fine IMO. Lackey could see a mana increase to delay the combo.
No easy solution for Spiteful. Maybe nerfing it to 1/1 stats or something very very weak?
Dark pact being 2 mana: I think this is a buff lol, since it dodges Geist. It is true that turn 6 lackey+pact is gone but still...
I would never touch Doomguard, it will be equivalent of touching Fireball, it is too iconic to change it now.
Voidlord is fine IMO. Lackey could see a mana increase to delay the combo.
No easy solution for Spiteful. Maybe nerfing it to 1/1 stats or something very very weak?
Rogue does okay vs warlocks. Odd rogue with double owl, other rogue lists with double sap.
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I also had a bunch of games as odd rogue where owl never came into play. Turn 5-6 kills feelsgoodman. Playing around hellfire is pretty key.
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Tess Rouge and Glinda Warlock are the ones I enjoy, and I posted about them in the past. Their more refined cousins obviously have better win rates, and are more played, but I like fun so play these.
I think I've had the most fun with Tess Rogue, though it's obviously not great. I'm slowly laddering with Tempo Mage, though only a few games a day makes for slow going. Once I get back to 5 I'll play more Tess.
Whenever I get super frustrated I play Tempo mage. It's weak against Druid right now, so it's not ideal, but it's pretty good against everyone else, even warlocks as long as you can finish them pretty early.
Thanks, I replaced the Stonehills with Thugs since the deck has too much card draw with Valeera :b
That would be really unfortunate. I'd hate for them to just eliminate the deck.
Call to Arms - Summon 4 minions that cost (1) or less or make it 6 mana and Summon 3 minions that cost (2) or less.
Spiteful Summoner - Make Spiteful a 1/1. Honestly, I don't think Spiteful needs a nerf. There are a ton of ways to deal with it already.
Quest Rogue - All minions have 5 attack
Dark Pact - 2 mana or 1 mana silence a minion, destroy it and restore 8hp.
or Lackey - Can't be targeted by spells or hero powers.
Baku Paladin - 2/2 Silver Knight
Reasonable nerfs imo. Obviously don't need all of them.
Spiteful Summoner - Make Spiteful a 1/1. Honestly, I don't think Spiteful needs a nerf. There are a ton of ways to deal with it already.
Quest Rogue - All minions have 5 attack
Dark Pact - 2 mana or 1 mana silence a minion, destroy it and restore 8hp.
or Lackey - Can't be targeted by spells or hero powers.
Baku Paladin - 2/2 Silver Knight
Reasonable nerfs imo. Obviously don't need all of them.
Really dislike the fact that we're forced to wait for nerfs because of e-sports. Couldn't they just set up a different client without the nerfs or something for them to play on?
Never understood why games prioritize their e-sports over the general player base.
Never understood why games prioritize their e-sports over the general player base.
Well, unlike other games.. its became radically different games than what people watching
technically its same too for those MOBA/FPS but you still see the same shooting and shit, not different cards
Setting up old servers is so they can play the old patch is the worst solution even though it's suggested a lot. Card games aren't MOBA and FPS in that way where recently passed metas aren't fun to play or watch.
But they're also not like MOBA and FPS where the biggest draw to watching them is highly practiced and clean play. It's actually pretty boring to watch them play the same matchups we've already all seen a million times online.
Instead, they shouldn't worry about throwing a kink in the meta in the middle of a tournament, and make players having to adjust quickly a part of the competition, both for the good of the game and the competition.
But they're also not like MOBA and FPS where the biggest draw to watching them is highly practiced and clean play. It's actually pretty boring to watch them play the same matchups we've already all seen a million times online.
Instead, they shouldn't worry about throwing a kink in the meta in the middle of a tournament, and make players having to adjust quickly a part of the competition, both for the good of the game and the competition.
I like frodans idea for quest rogue . Make the reward a minion like quest druid so you cant prep it out.
I don't know, they should figure something out. Punishing the player base with this trash meta for the sake of a tiny sliver of e-sports players sucks ass.
It shouldn't be like this.
It shouldn't be like this.
Sounds like they don't even know what they're nerfing yet, regardless of esports.
here ya go https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/8eerjd/how_to_hit_face_with_oddrogue_to_legend/
there are a few changes that can be made to the list in the OP though. read the thread. im running tar creepers now, i think they are better in the list than a few other choices.
Ahh, I queued against kripp while playing stupid decks at the rank floor and I didn't even know he was playing wild. Not a good time to be in front of so many viewers.
Edit: Oh wow, I won. My double Deathlord specifically for druids worked out this time. Don't know how common that will be. Didn't think about him trying to draw his full combo before killing it until that turn he did nothing but draw a billion cards.
Edit2: I did have azalina in my deck weirdly enough, toggwaggle + nourish actually might have worked. Not even from malchezaar. Figured maybe it fits in a no-mill fatigue deck.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/259325017?t=02h34m40s
Edit: Oh wow, I won. My double Deathlord specifically for druids worked out this time. Don't know how common that will be. Didn't think about him trying to draw his full combo before killing it until that turn he did nothing but draw a billion cards.
Edit2: I did have azalina in my deck weirdly enough, toggwaggle + nourish actually might have worked. Not even from malchezaar. Figured maybe it fits in a no-mill fatigue deck.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/259325017?t=02h34m40s
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I'm not sure it's as bad as some of the Cubelock cards, you'll still banking on a few levels of RNG to swing in your favour, and then that's if you've still got Ultimate Infestation in your deck, if you draw Ultimate(s) early, Spitefull is just a waste of a card.
Not defending cubelock, but with that deck it's not really a single card that's the problem.
Also this Blizzard way of balancing "but sometimes it's not so good!" is pretty awful. I don't care that in a previous game my opponent's summoner RNG pulled some mediocre minion or that in the match before that he happened to have drawn both his ultimate infestations. I care about the current match I'm playing and that my opponent just summoned 2 Tyrantus back to back on turn 6 and 7. With a bit of luck I could deal with one, but not a second. And if I could have, I would be playing the overpowered deck. A single card (or rather random dice roll) not only dictated the whole match, it ended it right there. That's no fun. The card wasn't any fun right from the start.
Also this Blizzard way of balancing "but sometimes it's not so good!" is pretty awful. I don't care that in a previous game my opponent's summoner RNG pulled some mediocre minion or that in the match before that he happened to have drawn both his ultimate infestations. I care about the current match I'm playing and that my opponent just summoned 2 Tyrantus back to back on turn 6 and 7. With a bit of luck I could deal with one, but not a second. And if I could have, I would be playing the overpowered deck. A single card (or rather random dice roll) not only dictated the whole match, it ended it right there. That's no fun. The card wasn't any fun right from the start.
I don't think it really needs defending, it's a strong card for sure but also not that bad. They certainly don't balance the game around the back to back tyrantus games though. Also I disagree with you saying if you can deal with that you're playing an OP deck. That's pretty presumptuous. I don't think spiteful dictates the entire match. There are at least 5 turns leading up to it, that if used efficiently can crush spiteful decks.
Spiteful RNG atm isn't even that much of a problem. The variance isn't high like it used to be. There are no 6/6s in the 10 slot anymore. And usually if you can deal with the spiteful turn, they don't have many other large threats or ways to close the game out at least. So they get to play 1-2 large threats earlier than normal, which if you can deal with you can often win. They have few spells as well so if they fall behind on board they're super reliant on spiteful to even stand a chance.
At the very least spiteful decks are strong in a different way. They give up some very strong cards to be this way. I haven't even played a spiteful deck yet but I hope they don't nerf it because it actually promotes a different style of play that hearthstone always benefits from that, imo, they are sometimes too quick to nerf.
And yet, once again, here you are.
This was obviously just an example to point out that balancing through randomness is generally a bad idea. It also actually happened.
Seeing as Tyrantus cannot be targeted by spells (so no hexes/polymorphs), the usual way of dealing with this would be to do ((12+4)x2) damage across 2 minions. That's a LOT of damage to be able to do back to back on turn 6 and 7. It would mean that I could've ended the game instead if I had that. It would mean that spiteful summoner pulling Tyrantus would not be a problem if I could consistently do that much damage that early. But it is and I can't. Unless I happen to play Warrior and gamble a 50/50 brawl or maybe tech Big Game Hunter in all my decks...
What? Because spiteful summoner decks do nothing for 5 turns? Now that's presumptuous. They are tempo decks and generally you have to deal with whatever they put down right away. I also said that it dictated that match.
Not only is that beside the point, it's actually made the card stronger in standard.
That's a pretty big fucking IF though. But it's not about the number of big threats. It's about cheating big threats out on top of your small threats. It's a tempo deck. Not to mention that cards like Grand Archvist, Free from Amber and Mind Control can generate additional big threats themselves. Ultimate Infestation is also a very problematic card by the way, perhaps even more so.
And decks dropping every spell in favor of spiteful summoner shows exactly how powerful it is.
You seem to be the only one thinking that. We had to deal with Patches for more than a year before Blizzard finally admitted it was a problem.
I'm all for cards promoting different styles of play, but spiteful does not do that. At least not well. It's a tempo deck that wins through high-rolling. That's no fun for anyone.
Right, but my point is they don't really need defending since there is no OP spiteful deck.
So what if it happened? Sometimes you draw the nuts. They don't balance the game around extraordinary luck and they never will.
There are silences, there are taunts, there is vilespine slayer, tarim, poisonous minions, vanish, psychic scream and those are just some of the reactive ways to beat a tyrantus which is only one of the possible summons.
You said the spiteful dictated the entire game which is simply not true. You have at least 5 turns before spiteful which can determine the game easily. If you're ahead, which often you will be because they have limited ways to swing the game due to a lack of spells and proactive minions, they you can snowball past their spiteful turn assuming they even have drawn it.
You mentioned it's a single roll. I mentioned that single roll is fairly consistent anyway. The RNG on the card is not a problem because it is not high variance. Yes, it's stronger because it's more consistent, but you can't complain about the RNG then.
So set up to be able to deal with the spiteful, that is my point. Because if you do, you probably can easily win from there. Like damn, they warp their deck to get this one big strong minion of course it cannot be very easy to deal with otherwise it'd never be ran. It comes off like you're just complaining that it's strong but most things decks do are strong especially if they warp what they do to do it.
We're back to complaining about UI? After rotation UI isn't a big deal. Clearly a good enough card to run but not nearly as strong as it used to be last year and it wasn't touched then and correctly so. I think most of the criticism of UI at the time it was released was surrounding the fact that they had so much fast ramp they could UI too soon, in addition to jades that made it an extremely strong deck.
No, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Also, bringing up patches is not relevant towards that point. And yet, patches was nerfed because they didn't want it to be that strong in wild forever yet it lasted in it's released form all throughout 90% of it's time in standard. BTW, I was for nerfing patches. Patches didn't promote unique deck building, patches was just near an auto-include level for certain decks. Spiteful is the opposite. Spiteful requires you to not add many staple spells, including wild growth in druid for perhaps the first time outside of an aggro deck. It doesn't even run plague. So spiteful definitely promotes a different style of deck.
Spiteful has like 4 or 5 10 cost cards atm. Whatever the count it is very low. RNG is not a problem there since the variance is not high.
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For the record, I don't think spiteful in general is automatically tempo or midrange, though I think most spiteful decks are slanted towards midrange. For example, spiteful druid often runs MCT... clearly not a tempo card. Spiteful priest is even more midrange imo. I frankly would define the popular decks as midrange, not tempo. I mean, if you're playing a 3 mana 3/1, you're probably not tempo.
I think if they nerf spiteful summoner it'll be because the other nerfs make it too strong. Sort of domino effect.
I'll reiterate it once more because you seem to conveniently ignore every point I make. As I stated before I think that balancing through randomness (as Blizzard is doing with many cards) is extremely iffy. So sometimes Spiteful Summoner can't summon anything because you unluckily drew your spells first and sometimes it'll spew out a Tyrantus. There's no decision making here, no strategy involved by trying to play around it or making the best trades you can. It takes the fun out of the game. And yes games are thus decided by a single card. It was definitely the case in the match I played that I was referring to before. Both players were at even grounds until spiteful (+tyrantus) showed up and ended the game and there was nothing I could do. But apparently you've played this very match yourself and clearly know better. First you admit that back to back Tyrantus is "the nuts" and then you say there's ample ways of easily dealing with it? Which is it? The randomness of which minion spiteful can pull is very clearly not the (main) problem and I never stated that, but you can keep arguing that point if you like. In fact you keep on repeating it which makes me think you read nothing I said. By the way, even just getting a 6/6 + 4/4 for 6 is quite insane. There's a reason the card has been so popular since its release. And yes I find Ultimate Infestation very problematic for numerous reasons that I have no interest delving into with you. I've seen your posts over the years and you always seem intent on arguing against the grain just for the sake of it. Even the patches example was just to show that Blizzard isn't nerfing too quickly as you seem to think but you turned it into something else completely.
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Seeing as how paladin is their only counter, leaving spiteful intact would be hilarously stupid.
Assuming other archetypes don't fill the gap created by a warlock/paladin/quest rogue nerf, sure. But that is something that is hard to predict and they'll likely test for it.
I've given in to the dirty netdecking life and... it has not paid off at all. I'm rolling the odd pally, I keep winning one and then losing 3 or 4 in a row.
I swear I know how to the pilot the deck. Not that anyone will believe me. But I'm constantly up against Spiteful Druid or Cubelock that seem to always have the only answer in their deck for everything my particular hand can throw at them. Is Odd Rogue a better matchup against Spiteful and Control decks than Odd Pally?
I'm losing my shit not being able to dig out of rank 20 when I've been at 13 or 14 in the past seasons with a mid-range hunter deck.
I swear I know how to the pilot the deck. Not that anyone will believe me. But I'm constantly up against Spiteful Druid or Cubelock that seem to always have the only answer in their deck for everything my particular hand can throw at them. Is Odd Rogue a better matchup against Spiteful and Control decks than Odd Pally?
I'm losing my shit not being able to dig out of rank 20 when I've been at 13 or 14 in the past seasons with a mid-range hunter deck.
Just focus on learning, you'll get a hang of it eventually.
I don't know about counters but my Big Spell Mage and Control Warlock both have 6-4 and 7-3 win/lost rates to Spiteful Druid. They never loss to Spiteful Priest.
It's about having the tech cards ready and understanding the matchup. This is Rank 5-Legend.
I'm all about nerfing super crazy cards but really the meta isn't that bad at all. Every class have some representation. Every class have a deck that can go to Legend.
The meta is definitely pretty solid and varied atm. Worst I've seen were streaks of warlocks and that was in top 500 legend and again in rank5-legend this season.
No worries man, I don't take it personally and value your opinion. Since then I am leaning a bit heavier towards it needing to be nerfed, especially if paladin gets hit hard.
Yeah this brawl is....god awful.
Edit: Okay this might be legit the worst brawl they've ever put out. How did they even playtest this and think it was even remotely playable? They should just give everyone the classic pack and not force them to play this garbage.
Edit: Okay this might be legit the worst brawl they've ever put out. How did they even playtest this and think it was even remotely playable? They should just give everyone the classic pack and not force them to play this garbage.
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