funny you assume i'm a man? also you must have never played DR3?
I'm having a really hard time seeing where I assume anyone's gender here.
Also, exception that proves the rule.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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I'm having a really hard time seeing where I assume anyone's gender here.
Also, exception that proves the rule.
I guess, but being honest about having sexist attitudes doesn't make your attitudes any less sexist.
Where does it even come from outside of extreme insecurity? I remember being taught to critique texts back in high school...
I don't think enjoying the female body is in and of itself sexist.
The poster I quoted stated that they enjoy looking at digital female representations of scantily clad women. It would be sexist if they condone the widespread representation of sexualized women and that there should be no effort to do better on female representations, but they didn't. They are willing to recognize that these representations are troubling when looked at as a whole, but they also acknowledge that they, too, fall under the pandered demographic.
Man do people realize they're saying hurtful shit one they say this?
It's also weird with all the sexual assault leaks happening on Hollywood that people [men?] are still having a hard time taking women seriously about what's wrong with the current state of things.
Damn reading through this thread I can really understand OPs frustration with this issue, having to see posters again and again try to explain the same concept to others in this thread alone is a pretty annoying read, and this is on a fairly progressive forum space too. I couldn't imagine trying to do this to a wider audience, and I haven't really encountered this before (most friends only play multiplayer shooters so don't ever talk about sexualisation issues with them).
It is really disappointing how many games come out with overly sexualised female characters, and its always really off putting to me. Seeing only women put into dumb nonsensical costumes has always put me off of those games, makes them seem really childish. Hopefully by voting with my wallet, and talking to my friends who play games about this shit will contribute to normalising the costumes of women in games.
Lord knows though that this will take a long time to fix, which is really sad, because the only thing I can really say to people who care about this issue a lot is "put up with it for know, I guess it might get better in the future."
Ugh.
It is really disappointing how many games come out with overly sexualised female characters, and its always really off putting to me. Seeing only women put into dumb nonsensical costumes has always put me off of those games, makes them seem really childish. Hopefully by voting with my wallet, and talking to my friends who play games about this shit will contribute to normalising the costumes of women in games.
Lord knows though that this will take a long time to fix, which is really sad, because the only thing I can really say to people who care about this issue a lot is "put up with it for know, I guess it might get better in the future."
Ugh.
i... i donno :D
it's super defensive tho lol
also your avatar is great <3
Liking scantily clad women is simply one of many potential outcomes of being attracted to women and not inherently sexist I'd think.
Do you feel that is wrong?
Please continue to criticize. My recommendation is to always take a step back and make sure that it's coming from a place of love and kindness in your heart.
Progress needs to be made but unless it's built on a foundation of love it won't be accepted.
Progress needs to be made but unless it's built on a foundation of love it won't be accepted.
This isn't completely on topic but I wanted to address this for a few reasons...
Mostly, because these sorts of generalizations can contribute to an overall less equitable dynamic between men and women (which... is related to the topic).
The last sentence-- rape unfortunately is perpetuated mostly by men, whether it be on other men or other women. So, you're not going to read about women raping men because a) it doesn't happen as often, and b) many men are ashamed of reporting rape. Aside from that though, "the way she dressed" isn't actually a real excuse. Few men are literally just SO HORNY AND TURNED ON by a woman's outfit that they MUST rape. Rape is about power dynamics far more than just sexual urge, and the lack of understanding what consent is. The whole "the way she dressed" is used as an excuse, to try and divert the problem (rape) away from the man and to somehow blame the woman. Again, it's not about what the victim is wearing. It's about making it the victim's fault.
Next, the first sentence of yours is no longer as common in societies where men and women are equal in terms of education and careers. Both men and women, who want to have kids, will look for partners that will also be good parents. This is not a gender thing.
When women and men both earn money, financials are less important except when a woman has to give birth and take time off work. Then, the family's financials may become more important, but that's just how babies work.
Protection and visual attraction are based on society. What do women need to protect themselves from? Often, men. If women ran around committing most of the rape and assault and murder of men, and women were more afraid of what other women would do to them than what the men would do, women would no longer be looking to men for protection. Visual attraction is because for so long (and even now), women are valued primarily for their appearance (and sometimes, youth). All people are judged on their appearance but society tells everyone that a woman's appearance is the most important thing about her-- a society, btw, that is patriarchal. You're conflating the behavior learned from society with "this is how biology works," which is silly because women and men alike both care about appearance AND personality. If you actually believe that men primarily care about looks, then you are merely seeing the result of a society that treats women that way. It doesn't make it a biological truth.
Nah, OP is making good points. You can see the absurdity of sexualization of women via those character designs where they're fighters in a hostile fantasy world or something and require armor to live, but their middrift, legs and cleavage are exposed lol. As a dude who has no problem with ass ass titties titties, it's still tasteless and insults the intelligence of the gamer. I just want an immersive setting and a good story sometimes, if I want to ogle over women I'll watch porn. There seems to be a significant amount of game designers who still think most male gamers are the types of dudes who need their booth babes at e3 instead of interesting content. Relic ideas of a bygone era when nerdy males, white or otherwise, were still kind of the punching bag of society and were not commonly viewed as people who were capable of being masculine or boss enough to deserve dating attractive women. I grew up in that era myself, and can confirm that some of the sexualization stems from a desire to achieve some kind of sexual prowess when living in a society where you are often viewed as sexually worthless. That's also a big part of where the power fantasies of living vicariously through muscley superheros and action stars come from. A yearning of being powerful due to completely lacking those qualities and the ability to reap some of the social benefits they can afford you.
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I confess I'm disappointed that you've not only refused to engage with my argument, but you've apparently dismissed it completely.
Excuse me, what?
Love for what? You talking love for games? Sure. Respect for creations? Sure. Loving kindness for racist/sexist/transphobic stereotypes that plague the industry just because? Nah. I'm gonna hit those with a hammer and it's not powered with love.
How about you critique in your way and I'll just keep doing what I do.
I confess I'm disappointed some of y'all keep bringing up the same stale points like that particular one hasn't been debated to death.
I dunno about you, my dude, but I will pick my battles and where and how I spend my time. You don't have a right to anyone's time or argument.
This is why I still love Japanese studios and games like the Yakuza series, they don't even care about being "PC." Seriously, they give no fucks.
Progress built through anger is fleeting in the current culture. Anger is a majority of what we consume through media and the focus is ever changing. Love sticks. It is unarguably the right course of action where possible. And I fully believe that progress in female representation in games is something that can be achieved through love and thoughtfulness.
When we yell back and become hostile we don't change anyones opinion, we reinforce them. I don't want to derail this thread by bringing this subject matter up but I do want to assist in making sure that we keep clear minds so we can have the most beneficial conversations possible and come to mutual understandings and companionship.
Do you have a statement about progressing in female representation in games, that comes from a place of love and kindness, to share with the whole class?
Or are you just here to tone police other posts? The report button for such posts is right over there ------------>
People who claim that all argument should divorce emotion first are fundamentally misunderstanding the human race. Humanity is an emotional species, and expressing emotion in words is one data point to contribute to an argument.
"Silly women asking to be represented equally! How dare they!"
Ah well, let's sit back and have a chortle:
They truly don't care about PC. They only release their games on consoles!
?
didnt we agree that what we had disagreed on was semantics?
i swear i clipped your post as "semantic argument"
or are you really arguing that censure isn't censorship and criticism IS censorship????
PLS SEND HELP I AM SO CONFUSED
"Silly women asking to be represented equally! How dare they!"
Ah well, let's sit back and have a chortle:
This almost works as well as "Terrible gamers, how dare they want to have their fun! tsk, tsk." but whatevs.
Which is actually tremendously detrimental to their society.
See: falling birth rates, unwillingness to marry, problems due to gender expectations, idol culture, xenophobia
To expand on this:
Due to gender roles with the man being the provider and the woman giving up their careers to quit their job and raise kids, many women no longer want to have kids. The men are also increasingly upset about being forced to work all the time to provide for the family, so they turn instead to idol worship - lusting after teens and paying money to talk to them or hold their hands. Men and women alike have no interest in buying homes and settling down. They live with their parents. No babies, and the fear/dislike of foreigners (and no pressure to be "PC") means no new blood coming in to work and sustain the older folks.
I mean, all in all, Japan's in some biggggggg shit that will soon explode horribly. Not really the society you want to point to as emulating, ya know?
You can take it casually but funnily enough, the lack of a "PC" culture is going to be part of Japan's eventual implosion.
Uh, I also love the Yakuza games. Could you stop making the fanbase look awful.
Only if you stop trying to turn videogames into some kind of militant, left-wing hug box that the majority of gamers don't actually want, kthxbye.
As a woman, I'm sorry if I don't like seeing my sex put belittled and made ridiculous for your entertainment and I'm being """too PC""" for you.
stay classy
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I would never claim that arguments should be divorced from emotion. Love is an emotion and it's desperately needed. It's also very difficult. I had to delete a few versions of this post until I settled on this one.
My example of a statement that comes from a place of love and kindness would be how beneficial it is for young women to see role models in games that they can look up to. Having female characters that aren't solely based on sex appeal builds depth within the medium and expands the levels of maturity that can be achieved. It will assist in creating healthy perspectives for young women or any woman that happens to come across media with these focuses in mind. It helps with body image issues created by the ludicrous depiction of impossibly proportioned women in games and everyday entertainment.
The benefits of accepting and pushing for better depictions of women in games and media is staggering in it's amount and impossible to ignore.
Sure, but you understand that not all gamers think this kind of stuff is fun.
I like cheesecake stuff from time to time, but I also understand empathy because my little sister really doesn't like gratuitous sexualization in her games, and when she explained it to me, I began to understand why others may find that kind of stuff off putting, because it can be really awkward(my mom walked in on her playing MGSV while Quiet was...I don't even know.)
Don't be selfish and try to shut down other women who are trying to speak up on stuff they care about, just have a little empathy.
Yakuza, the most Dad game ever made? The game where the main character is a staunch feminist? The game where the main character meets a trans woman and immediately accepts her gender identity?
Kiryu is a dude who's staunchly about accepting people as people, and rejecting the boxes society forces them into. That's pretty goddamn PC.
Thanks for ignoring my post where I actually point out why a lack of a "PC" culture is literally destroying the country it's not a part of.
Well don't play it then, simple. You do realise how many games there are out there, don't you? and you do realise that not everyone of them has to be specifically taylored to your exact taste.
Nice to see we got some of this type in ERA's ranks.
Feels like the old GG thread on the old site where it was the same run around bullshit ad nauseum, punctuated by the occasional dude looking to drop an account suicide. I'd say to read at least some of the thread, but you've already cut and run and are too chickenshit to actually let your reasoning be criticized.
Why don't you look at the arguments in this thread? Women want to not be sexualized in games. How hard can that be to understand? And using Japan as a paragon is a hilariously false statement. They aren't a paragon when it comes to treating women without being sexualized. At all.
Why is basic respect for people who aren't straight white dudes a thing that has to be tailored, rather than something you'd expect in any work of media?
Because straight white men hold all the cards, duh. And these peeps will probably die at their keyboards to make sure that stays as the status quo.
User has been banned for 3 days trolling and admitting that he enjoys trolling.
Uh-oh, I seem to have activated the hivemind...
lel.
lel.
You do realize how many games out there contain sexualization of women, don't you? And how few games we'd be able to play if we only played games tailored to our "tastes" -- where our "tastes" in this context just mean women treated like human beings instead of solely objects for men to ogle?
Seems to me like you came here to just to shit things up.
I mean, read the OP again if you are having trouble keeping up. Yes, the widespread depiction of women in scantily clad ways in games that are otherwise not about being sexy is sexist and if you enjoy that and think it's proliferation throughout gaming is a good thing then you are a sexist. It objectifies women and it reinforces the idea that gaming is a Boys Club to the exclusion of all others.
If you want to look at cartoon tits there are plenty of avenues where you can do that without being sexist.
Reading the posts between you two I'm actually confused what is going on. It looks like they have a problem with you not having the same reaction. There doesn't seem to be a disagreement overall.
I mean, a direct quote from his post was "I enjoy seeing characters like quiet in my games", which to me says they like the widespread representation of sexualised women. Feel free to disagree, but I don't really see any other way of interpreting that statement.
There are a couple of problems with that line of thinking.
1.You can't tell whether you'll like a game or not until you play it. Even if you watch the entirety of a game with explanations of the mechanics and the story, you're not going to know for sure if you like it or not without playing it.
2. If you don't buy something, that doesn't give any meaningful feed back, since you are not part of the customer base.
3. You can dislike aspects of a game. I think Dark Souls 1 covenant system is trash, but I still love the rest of the game.
4. Most of these are suppose to be mass appeal games, meaning they are trying to appeal to the most people in other to make a profit.
If you aren't, then surely you must understand the prejudice that comes from that ignorance. Why do you want other people to suffer something you have as well?
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