REgals [Women of Era] |OT| Episode I: The Female Menace

GraphicViolets · Nov 8, 2017

kliklik said:
I definitely had this perspective in the past, and I guess it just got drained out of me. At some point, I just started wondering why I felt it necessary to spend so much of my own time trying to convince rando men on the internet, like their opinion is so vitally important that it justifies a bunch of women sacrificing vast chunks of their personal time and mental health to patiently explain basic concepts over and over again that they could google if they actually cared about the answers to the questions they posed. Why is some ignorant anti-intellectual rando's opinion so incredibly important, or am I placing too much emphasis on convincing others? There was not a single step in women's progress that was achieved by convincing the majority of men that it was the right thing to do.

At the very least women can feel solidarity. Obviously its very deflating to see for all of us but when a few women are in there at least for me it feels like I'm not alone.
Also with all those things its not just the people you're arguing with who need to learn better, its also the onlookers. Ive definitely heard a bunch of people who said they learned things from watching forum arguments and personally I had my parents' idea in my mind about feminism (very angry, burn bras, radical etc) until I spent a lot more time on the internet and learned how dumb that idea was (and how even when that idea is accurate, how is women doing that bad?). Really crazy now to imagine now but thinking that way definitely was the result of very limited experiences and hearing more views really did well to realize I should try to understand what people are arguing about instead of being upset about the tone and imagery.
I need to find a way to stop getting so mad at posts so I can contribute instead of one off posts that dont lead to discussion. I managed to succeed before but idk what's different now.

And of course none of us should be expected to fix it all. Self care >>>>>>> dumb internet arguments

(not like any of this is a particularly new perspective)

RedHoodedOwl · Nov 8, 2017

HyperFerret said:
You only need a small "hey this character's bare ass is in my face and it's distracting" for the character designers to change it. Only works if the character is male though, of course.

Hey, I can't focus on finish this game, because this dude's ass is distracting me, this is so obscene.

kliklik · Nov 8, 2017

futurememory said:
Fellow petite women!! I'm usually an XXS/as small as it goes. Where do you usually shop that's not too expensive? It's pretty difficult for me to find anything, and jeans are a nightmare. I'm definitely a leggings/dresses kind of girl.

I'm really a terrible source for this cuz I'm struggling with it myself. The only jeans I've ever found that are small enough for me are Guess jeans, which aren't cheap, but they do go down to size 23 (waist). I love Loft for tops (which is a younger style than Ann Taylor) and they often have very good sales, plus discounts for students. They seem to have XS, XXS, Petite XS, and Petite XXS all in stock in store so you can try and see which one fits best.

Also, what's everyone's favourite leggings brand?

MaskedNdi · Nov 8, 2017

futurememory said:
Fellow petite women!! I'm usually an XXS/as small as it goes. Where do you usually shop that's not too expensive? It's pretty difficult for me to find anything, and jeans are a nightmare. I'm definitely a leggings/dresses kind of girl.

I do a lot of leggings/dresses too. I have a shorter torso/longer legs and getting pants to fit right is a pain. Like Pet said, it seems like it's a lot easier to get a decent fit on fit and flare dresses. I buy a lot of my clothing used, but for newer stuff, Asos has a lot of great stuff in smaller sizes.

My favorite leggings brand is J. Crew, but I wear cheaper brands like Style & Co too.

futurememory · Nov 8, 2017

I'm also in the shorter torso/longer legs camp. It's a pain, some petite stuff actually can be too cropped (even though I'm 5'1.5"). And then the stuff for regular-sized people tends to be waaaayy too long.

Fit and flare and skater dresses are my absolute favs, and I'm a really big fall/winter baggy sweater/leggings combo girl.

H&M size 2 tends to work for me (I'm in the states, our sizing is a bit bigger than other territories), but the sizing tends to be all over the place. I've also had success with ASOS and Urban Outfitters as well. Mod Cloth now has some XS sizing but it can be hit and miss. Gap's smallest petite stuff tends to still be too big on me.

mafe · Nov 8, 2017

Hello ladies! Was a lurker before, I plan on being more active c:

mafe · Nov 8, 2017

futurememory said:
I'm also in the shorter torso/longer legs camp. It's a pain, some petite stuff actually can be too cropped (even though I'm 5'1.5"). And then the stuff for regular-sized people tends to be waaaayy too long.

Fit and flare and skater dresses are my absolute favs, and I'm a really big fall/winter baggy sweater/leggings combo girl.

H&M size 2 tends to work for me (I'm in the states, our sizing is a bit bigger than other territories), but the sizing tends to be all over the place. I've also had success with ASOS and Urban Outfitters as well. Mod Cloth now has some XS sizing but it can be hit and miss. Gap's smallest petite stuff tends to still be too big on me.

Petite here. Skater dresses/skirts are the way to go. I'm more of an apple shape so I tend to get bigger sized pants...I usually get whatever fits best and just get alterations...usually the hem.

I'm probably a size 4/6 bottoms. I'm still trying to invest money in nice petite clothes, since I'm too used to getting cheap stuff that never quite fits.

kliklik · Nov 8, 2017

GraphicViolets said:
At the very least women can feel solidarity. Obviously its very deflating to see for all of us but when a few women are in there at least for me it feels like I'm not alone.
Also with all those things its not just the people you're arguing with who need to learn better, its also the onlookers. Ive definitely heard a bunch of people who said they learned things from watching forum arguments and personally I had my parents' idea in my mind about feminism (very angry, burn bras, radical etc) until I spent a lot more time on the internet and learned how dumb that idea was (and how even when that idea is accurate, how is women doing that bad?). Really crazy now to imagine now but thinking that way definitely was the result of very limited experiences and hearing more views really did well to realize I should try to understand what people are arguing about instead of being upset about the tone and imagery.
I need to find a way to stop getting so mad at posts so I can contribute instead of one off posts that dont lead to discussion. I managed to succeed before but idk what's different now.

And of course none of us should be expected to fix it all. Self care >>>>>>> dumb internet arguments

(not like any of this is a particularly new perspective)

Ya, I definitely recall that I combatted the feeling of self-induced insanity when engaging in internet debates by telling myself that I wasn't arguing to convince my interlocutor, but the people reading our debate. And there's merit to that like you say – I definitely had onlookers comment on it back in the day.

I'm starting to think that the key to contributing without getting mad and flipping tables is to either: 1) pick common objections that people are raising and address those without addressing any specific person, or, 2) ignore everyone else and pick out a specific person to respond to who seems like they're intelligent and open to discussion, even though they hold an opposite opinion or even a very wrong-headed view.

Surprisingly, #2 isn't all that hard to do. I think we're all experienced enough that we can tell a closed-minded guy who's just in there to spout off his opinion ("guys have muscles in games! Ha, checkmate, ladies!" These guys are really medical marvels – how do they manage to type while plugging their ears at the same time?!) The only trick is being able to differentiate people with wrong-headed views who are open vs. those who aren't. I think the differentiator is their politeness and the amount of consideration they give to others when they post. It's amazing how shockingly wrong-headed people can be and yet still be open to what you have to say. It's also hard to fight the compulsion to respond to everyone who responds to you, even when they don't deserve your attention.

GallianGeneral · Nov 8, 2017

Orio said:
Artistic integrity only applies when it's things you want, obviously.

That reminds me about how Dontnod had trouble getting both Remember Me and Life is Strange funded due to companies wanting them to change to male protagonists. If you bring that up, however, they argue that it makes sense in that case to change their "vision" because of the market and how companies have a right to make money.

As an artist and a developer, the "artistic integrity" argument makes me want to scream the most.

This! The whole "artistic integrity" shtick is bullshit. I only ever see it used to deflect criticisms from minorities. People have no problem criticizing someone's work in regards to narrative or gameplay elements that they don't like but when it's minority representation? Nope, let the creator do what they want, don't criticize them!!1!11!

Anyways, this idea that all men love gratuitously sexualized women isn't even true. Lots of men think it's degrading and juvenile and there were def men who agreed that things need to be changed. And this whole "what did you expect?" line of thinking is dumb. Most minorities expect biases and prejudice against them by the default, but we would never have gotten where we are if we didn't try and have a conversation.

JRoth · Nov 8, 2017

weemadarthur said:
You too, girl. You, too.
But women have gotten attention from a number of devs recently, and collections of women who game are a valuable resource for them. I've seen a few start conversations (not in the women's OT of course!) to collect data for their own use and expansion as artists.

With positive attention comes negative a long with it. Developers are taking very big steps with these female leads. There are risks and uncertainties that come with the direction that the game goes in and how the game goes about telling it. In the case of Ellie being gay in TLOU, I believe that Naughty Dog is in a prime position to talk about their decisions with the character. They have the story telling techniques and the careful writing shown in previous titles that I believe this is a good time to take that next step forward for their studio. As much as I wanted to post in that thread, it didn't make sense to. Game isn't out yet. I want to see how the writers and game developer teams go about handling her story. Because I'm positive they have things they want to say through Ellie and the supporting characters that show up around her.

From my experience, I have seen other sexual oriented characters in many games in minor roles, and still have successful story telling. It's just not been put front in center in the way ND is doing.

Gonna be honest, I am more fascinated to play the game due to her sexual orientation, then I was before. I do want to try to see the world through her eyes.

Deleted member 8583 · Nov 8, 2017

Hello, discovered this thread thanks to the other one...

Anyway, hope you all are having a better time.

Just saw the OP and the books recommendations and just wanted to ask what do you all think about Monique Wittig radical material feminism / lesbianism and her book "The Straight Mind"?

After reading that collection of essays my perception about heterosexuality and the material consequences it haves changed drastically. Made me more aware about how everything is made for the consumption of white straight men. Also, I like her critic about how science and western thought in general created this type of reality that oppresses / exploits everyone that does not have the privileged categories that are men, white, rich, "body-able", an so on. I also like reading Silvia Federici and Sudaca philosopher Leonor Silvestri.

I would appreciate if anyone could share their thoughts on those thinkers or could recommend me more on radical material feminism.

Thanks!!!

SHØGVN · Nov 8, 2017

Hey I hate to bring up that thread that you're all probably sick of, but I wanted to share my post with y'all and hope it spreads some positivity on the subject if you feel frustrated: https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...ed-character-designs.4483/page-28#post-720831

Like there are guys out there who are fighting in the same corner, I'm not trying to gain brownie points I just genuinely had to vent after reading through that thread.

Also shout out to Pirate Bae for your awesome post if you're here :)

spider · Nov 8, 2017

hey, all positivity is appreciated :>

and tbh, i think most of the girls on this thread just wants open forum to discuss things. we're not here to jam our opinions down people's throats, we know doing that will not win hearts over. we're .... most of us are functioning adults who understand that change doesnt happen overnight. i personally value most earnest dialogs when they do occur :>

Pau · Nov 8, 2017

Devenir Ácrata said:
Hello, discovered this thread thanks to the other one...

Anyway, hope you all are having a better time.

Just saw the OP and the books recommendations and just wanted to ask what do you all think about Monique Wittig radical material feminism / lesbianism and her book "The Straight Mind"?

After reading that collection of essays my perception about heterosexuality and the material consequences it haves changed drastically. Made me more aware about how everything is made for the consumption of white straight men. Also, I like her critic about how science and western thought in general created this type of reality that oppresses / exploits everyone that does not have the privileged categories that are men, white, rich, "body-able", an so on. I also like reading Silvia Federici and Sudaca philosopher Leonor Silvestri.

I would appreciate if anyone could share their thoughts on those thinkers or could recommend me more on radical material feminism.

Thanks!!!

I don't have any recommendations unfortunately. :( But I did like the little I read of Caliban and the Witch and your post reminded me that I need to go back and read all of it.

SHØGVN · Nov 8, 2017

Open dialog between functioning adults...That's all we could ever hope for :P

GraphicViolets · Nov 8, 2017

kliklik said:
Ya, I definitely recall that I combatted the feeling of self-induced insanity when engaging in internet debates by telling myself that I wasn't arguing to convince my interlocutor, but the people reading our debate. And there's merit to that like you say – I definitely had onlookers comment on it back in the day.

I'm starting to think that the key to contributing without getting mad and flipping tables is to either: 1) pick common objections that people are raising and address those without addressing any specific person, or, 2) ignore everyone else and pick out a specific person to respond to who seems like they're intelligent and open to discussion, even though they hold an opposite opinion or even a very wrong-headed view.

Surprisingly, #2 isn't all that hard to do. I think we're all experienced enough that we can tell a closed-minded guy who's just in there to spout off his opinion ("guys have muscles in games! Ha, checkmate, ladies!" These guys are really medical marvels – how do they manage to type while plugging their ears at the same time?!) The only trick is being able to differentiate people with wrong-headed views who are open vs. those who aren't. I think the differentiator is their politeness and the amount of consideration they give to others when they post. It's amazing how shockingly wrong-headed people can be and yet still be open to what you have to say. It's also hard to fight the compulsion to respond to everyone who responds to you, even when they don't deserve your attention.

I definitely felt like (on other forums at least) that the rules requiring you to respond to posts made me anxious not to avoid people who might try to argue on a topic I brought up or something they quoted me on. also similar rules feel like they limit the ability to talk more broadly cause it would often be considered thread shitting.

I really need to do a better job at your #2 though. I often get caught up by the people who are wordy but willfully ignorant though talking to friends about it helps to learn who has a history of that before I waste my time. Its also hard to argue with someone who thinks they're openminded but just falls for fallacies constantly. So many ways to be frustrating and wrong :(

Orio · Nov 8, 2017

It's sometimes hard not posting in that thread, but I just want to point out that sometimes you see people think they're going to fight fire with fire and use "their words" against them, but then it turns out they have no idea what those words mean and it unintentionally becomes hilarious.

Carry on.

Suede · Nov 8, 2017

Welcome to all the new peeps.

Dark3nergy said:
Gonna be honest, I am more fascinated to play the game due to her sexual orientation, then I was before. I do want to try to see the world through her eyes.

Ellie is so cool. I'm also always happy to have more queer girls in games, but I'm biased. :P I also really like the look of the woman in the newest trailer for Part II, There needs to be more buff girls in games, never makes sense when women are fighters and are very skinny and have no muscle definition to them (I also find it really attractive haha), Also, the negative reaction to her body from some people was what I expected, but it's still lame.

Pet · Nov 9, 2017

futurememory said:
Fellow petite women!! I'm usually an XXS/as small as it goes. Where do you usually shop that's not too expensive? It's pretty difficult for me to find anything, and jeans are a nightmare. I'm definitely a leggings/dresses kind of girl.

Paige jeans are great and run true to size / even a bit small. At least, that was the case ~8 years ago. Not sure now.

kliklik said:
I'm really a terrible source for this cuz I'm struggling with it myself. The only jeans I've ever found that are small enough for me are Guess jeans, which aren't cheap, but they do go down to size 23 (waist). I love Loft for tops (which is a younger style than Ann Taylor) and they often have very good sales, plus discounts for students. They seem to have XS, XXS, Petite XS, and Petite XXS all in stock in store so you can try and see which one fits best.

Also, what's everyone's favourite leggings brand?

What I told future - Paige jeans! They fit beautifully on petite women if you're not packing much in the trunk (haha). That's all I wore when I wore jeans. Now I wear Express jeans, size 0 fits me well. I always felt like Loft vanity sized TBH.

Dr. Monkey · Nov 9, 2017

Devenir Ácrata said:
Hello, discovered this thread thanks to the other one...

Anyway, hope you all are having a better time.

Just saw the OP and the books recommendations and just wanted to ask what do you all think about Monique Wittig radical material feminism / lesbianism and her book "The Straight Mind"?

After reading that collection of essays my perception about heterosexuality and the material consequences it haves changed drastically. Made me more aware about how everything is made for the consumption of white straight men. Also, I like her critic about how science and western thought in general created this type of reality that oppresses / exploits everyone that does not have the privileged categories that are men, white, rich, "body-able", an so on. I also like reading Silvia Federici and Sudaca philosopher Leonor Silvestri.

I would appreciate if anyone could share their thoughts on those thinkers or could recommend me more on radical material feminism.

Thanks!!!

Probably not as radical as you'd like - the first of these certainly stops short for me in a lot of places - but if you're looking for materialist theory with feminist angles, really most things in the New Materialism school will probably tickle your fancy. If you're into games-related stuff, too, there's a couple I can recommend, but for the first, look into Sara Ahmed (like her recent Living a Feminist Life) and she also has an essay in Samantha Frost and Diana Coole's collection on New Materialisms, which is the one that doesn't really go quite far enough for me in places but is still overall a good read. Depending on your other interests, you might like Nina Lykke... oh, Patricia Hill Collins, always. And of course Judith Butler. I'm also a huge fan of Donna Haraway, who is a fucking international treasure, obviously.

Septimus Prime · Nov 9, 2017

kierwynn said:
Thanks for the suggestion! That's actually one I haven't heard of before. I'll check them out for sure.

Here are some pics of the book we have from Zno.

Look know thick the pages are, and there is no branding or watermark anywhere.

And this was just the free sample! They have even better stuff that you can pay for.

Deleted member 8583 · Nov 9, 2017

Dr. Monkey said:
Probably not as radical as you'd like - the first of these certainly stops short for me in a lot of places - but if you're looking for materialist theory with feminist angles, really most things in the New Materialism school will probably tickle your fancy. If you're into games-related stuff, too, there's a couple I can recommend, but for the first, look into Sara Ahmed (like her recent Living a Feminist Life) and she also has an essay in Samantha Frost and Diana Coole's collection on New Materialisms, which is the one that doesn't really go quite far enough for me in places but is still overall a good read. Depending on your other interests, you might like Nina Lykke... oh, Patricia Hill Collins, always. And of course Judith Butler. I'm also a huge fan of Donna Haraway, who is a fucking international treasure, obviously.

Thanks!

I really like Haraway radical critic of western thought, shame some of her work is hard to find in Mexico and even harder to find translations of her books / papers.

I went to a seminary of the New Materialism school and I did not like their theories too much, as you, I found them to be a bit tame.

Going to check the other recommendations.

Anyone else follows the women movement in Rojava? I really like their jineology proposition.

Asukui · Nov 9, 2017

Hello all! I've been lurking this thread for a little but and you all seem wonderful ♥

HyperFerret said:
It was there, that's why they changed it.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/mobius-mevius-final-fantasy-hero-too-sexy

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...ts-too-sexy-male-star-of-mobius-final-fantasy

Oh, so THIS character was showing too much skin, but Kuja from FF9 was JUST FINE.

But see, Kuja is a villain so it's totally fine for him to be mostly naked and effeminate but not a Main Character! blah blah. Kuja is actually one of my favorite designs though xD And his theme song is incredibly soothing~

Leeness · Nov 9, 2017

Asukui said:
Hello all! I've been lurking this thread for a little but and you all seem wonderful ♥

But see, Kuja is a villain so it's totally fine for him to be mostly naked and effeminate but not a Main Character! blah blah. Kuja is actually one of my favorite designs though xD And his theme song is incredibly soothing~

Hello to all new people, but especially to you because Kuja sistas. ❤️ My absolute most loved.

spider · Nov 9, 2017

cuz you can beat down kuja

so is ok

is like you dont have to be him, ysee. instead you get to dish out his defeat.

but if you HAVE TO BE ff mobius guy, then it wont do. the penii will not stand for it.

Septimus Prime · Nov 9, 2017

spider said:
penii

penes*

/mansplain

Dr. Monkey · Nov 9, 2017

that one thread has me eighteen kinds of riled up. I could breathe actual fucking fire right now.

Suede · Nov 9, 2017

I played through FFIX for the first time last year and Kuja's outfit was definitely something lol. Defo the cutest male FF villain I've seen so far.

sabrina · Nov 9, 2017

Dr. Monkey said:
that one thread has me eighteen kinds of riled up. I could breathe actual fucking fire right now.

Would it rile you up further if I asked why your avatar is a chimpanzee?

Dr. Monkey · Nov 9, 2017

It was the best "doctor"/judgy ape-face I could find. Felt like I probably look right before I'm about to respond to some bullshit.

sabrina · Nov 9, 2017

lol I'm just playing. Because monkeys aren't apes. It's a fun picture though

Leeness · Nov 9, 2017

Kuja, my love!

Dr. Monkey · Nov 9, 2017

Septimus Prime said:
penes*

/mansplain

That's usually considered the second, less common plural form; the more common plural form is simply "penises." Though according to Strunk and White's classic text, rules fall before what we think sounds good and in common vernacular on a forum, "penii" is fine.

/languagesplain

I can do this all day. And will.

Dr. Monkey · Nov 9, 2017

sabrina said:
lol I'm just playing. Because monkeys aren't apes. It's a fun picture though

Oh, I know, but it's what was there! it was the best I could do! /cryface

Septimus Prime · Nov 9, 2017

Dr. Monkey said:
That's usually considered the second, less common plural form; the more common plural form is simply "penises." Though according to Strunk and White's classic text, rules fall before what we think sounds good and in common vernacular on a forum, "penii" is fine.

/languagesplain

I can do this all day. And will.

Okay. You're the doctor.

HyperFerret · Nov 9, 2017

Leeness said:
Kuja, my love!

You never beat Kuja in a single fight that entire game. Fact.

Best FF villain.

Asukui · Nov 9, 2017

Leeness said:
Hello to all new people, but especially to you because Kuja sistas. ❤️ My absolute most loved.

Selina said:
I played through FFIX for the first time last year and Kuja's outfit was definitely something lol. Defo the cutest male FF villain I've seen so far.

I love the Kuja love!~

Septimus Prime · Nov 9, 2017

Dude is the only person in that world who can cast Ultima. He can wear what he wants.

Suede · Nov 9, 2017

He also gets a badass fight theme at the end. Seriously one of the best tracks in the series.

dee_activate · Nov 9, 2017

my, i'm trying to read through that thread. I'm not gonna mention much but Pirate Bae I have a huge girl crush on you now. I wish i could articulate myslef on the topic as well as you. and for a bit of fun, this skit kinda covers my experience in games :)

https://youtu.be/-vI5tdORhC0?t=5

On another topic, i'm getting into a lot of true crime podcasts lately. I've gone through Serial, Somebody knows something, Who killed Alberta Williams, In the Dark and (currently listening to) Real crime Profile

Any other true crime fans that can recommend me another?

Also has anyone listed to 'My dad wrote a porno' podcast. I only found it a few months back. It is hysterical and highly recommend it.

edit: typo

Pirate Bae · Nov 9, 2017

Thanks sunshine <3

JRoth · Nov 9, 2017

Selina said:
Welcome to all the new peeps.
Ellie is so cool. I'm also always happy to have more queer girls in games, but I'm biased. :P I also really like the look of the woman in the newest trailer for Part II, There needs to be more buff girls in games, never makes sense when women are fighters and are very skinny and have no muscle definition to them (I also find it really attractive haha), Also, the negative reaction to her body from some people was what I expected, but it's still lame.

Capcom's Chun-Li character has some exaggerated features on her legs as part of her artistic style, but her arms definitely look skinnier compared to male counterparts. Doesn't mean she doesn't pack a punch though.

Overall having a change of pace in women physically looking stronger is something I welcome. It helps to reinforce the part the girl would take.

Aiustis · Nov 9, 2017

I have huge eye boogers.

spider · Nov 9, 2017

i just cut my own bangs

it is perf

$$$$$ saved tbh

Decarbia · Nov 9, 2017

I love Chun Li though, her thighs. She also has rarely been oversexualized, minus the film, her Alpha outfit I love in particular.

Pirate Bae · Nov 9, 2017

spider said:
i just cut my own bangs

it is perf

$$$$$ saved tbh

I haven't gotten my hair cut in a year. I'm gonna get it colored and trimmed when I get back to civilization.

spider · Nov 9, 2017

Pirate Bae said:
I haven't gotten my hair cut in a year. I'm gonna get it colored and trimmed when I get back to civilization.

wow a year

definitely u deserve to treat urself when u are back, gurl

Lady Murasaki · Nov 9, 2017

I am glad I found this thread!

Read it almost completely, great tips.

Pirate Bae · Nov 9, 2017

spider said:
wow a year

definitely u deserve to treat urself when u are back, gurl

It's very long and annoying cause I have to put it up and blast it with hairspray every day

I don't want a super short haircut, but at least a few inches off. My getting ready routine will be so much easier

Deleted member 1287 · Nov 9, 2017

Asukui said:
Hello all! I've been lurking this thread for a little but and you all seem wonderful ♥

But see, Kuja is a villain so it's totally fine for him to be mostly naked and effeminate but not a Main Character! blah blah. Kuja is actually one of my favorite designs though xD And his theme song is incredibly soothing~

Hello and welcome! Thanks for posting so many lovely foods in my thread

REgals [Women of Era] |OT| Episode I: The Female Menace

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