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kamineko

Linked the Fire
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,501
Accardi-by-the-Sea
Sounds pretty reasonable to me, TC. I agree.

Seems to me these conversations get sideways because it's hard for some folks to admit they like problematic media. So, like, instead there's this effort to prove that "problematic" isn't real. I sometimes like problematic media, most people do. It's OK.
 

Zambayoshi

Member
Nov 2, 2017
103
I'm sure you've heard the argument that if you don't like something, boycott it. Don't buy it. Get your friends and acquaintances not to buy it. If there is no market there, the product won't be produced.

What I think is a bit harsh is kink-shaming people who DO enjoy sexualised female characters. Until you can draw a definitive link between appreciation of sexualised female characters in video games and undesirable behaviour in real life, then you are kink-shaming, nothing more.

People fantasise all the time about stuff that others find perverted. Who's to say that someone who is a fine upstanding person in real life can't enjoy watching the cast of Sengan Kagura prancing around in bikinis?
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Sounds pretty reasonable to me, TC. I agree.

Seems to me these conversations get sideways because it's hard for some folks to admit they like problematic media. So, like, instead there's this effort to prove that "problematic" isn't real. I sometimes like problematic media, most people do. It's OK.

As someone who does enjoy some problematic stuff I think something someone said to me earlier explains why a lot of people act this way. I asked if because I enjoyed sexualized media it made me a bad person. They said some people see the things said and instead of taking it as being about the games they see it as about them.

They feel they are being judged. I know sometimes I feel like that. So certain people take to defend those games instead of admitting why they like it.

I admit I like Cindy and Quiet. But I'm not going to say they aren't designed to pander and nothing would change if they gave them more clothes.

I think some people have trouble admitting that. Sorry for rambling.
 

Sir Laguna

Member
Oct 27, 2017
251
THIS

ALL OF THIS.

I was reading all the thread (damn... this is long) and was gonna write about it but there's no need anymore. Everything is perfectly answered here.

I kind of feel like the thread has run its course. I will continue to respond if need be, but for the most part, I am done with discussion. I am tired, frustrated, and simply perplexed that so many people fail to sympathize or understand basic concepts of respect and human decency. I'd like to leave a few closing points, however, before I go.

1. It is not fair to simply ask women to not play games that may feature oversexualized or objectified women. Because, really, we'd have nothing left to play. The games that don't feature those themes to some degrading degree are few and far between, and in my 21 years of gaming, I have had to learn to "suck it up" and adapt to gaming culture. Because, the reality of it is, it's a man's culture. We women are treated like we don't belong in it, and if we don't belong, why should the industry cater to us? We're only SJWs anyway, and we'll complain about anything. I also refuse to tailor my interests in specific games or genres because some horny dev likes boobs and wants them in his game.

2. There is a difference between having sex in a game and oversexualizing a character for no specific reason. Sex in games is fine, so long as it is done tastefully and within the scope of the universe; in other words, it has to make sense. Having a soldier-type woman wear nothing but fishnets and a bikini top doesn't make sense. It's obvious pandering to its target male audience for the sole purpose of providing fap material. I get it, sex sells. But that doesn't make it okay, nor does it stop the trend from continuing. It's distasteful and alienates entire demographics of players based on societal norms.

3. If men were objectified just as much as women, and to the same degree, then we'd be having a different conversation. But the reality of it is, they're not. Even when it does happen, because let's be real, it does, it's not in the same way. Men are, historically, dominators. They dominate women. Women simply lack the power, both in the real world and the virtual one, to change this. We have always been sex symbols for male viewing pleasure, and that has not changed. We have been the ones at home, catering to male needs and desires. "Make yourself beautiful for your husband and put out; he's tired after working all day and it's your job as his wife to satisfy him!" The presentation of these ideals have changed, but the core themes and attitudes still exist. And you're naive and in denial if you think otherwise.

4. Video games don't cause sexist attitudes, but they foster those ideals in individuals that would otherwise not bring them to light in real life. I have experienced it firsthand; a socially awkward nerd belittles and harasses women because a video game did it in it's presentation of a character. A dev doesn't need to outright say that they don't respect women. Actions and their portrayal are enough. If a female character is portrayed as a sex object, that showcases a lack of respect for women as people, not sex symbols alone.

5. If you want to make a porn game, go for it. Advertise it as a porn game. But at least the sex is done within the scope and universe of the game. You go into it expecting a porn game. It's not added on for no apparent reason.

6. I absolutely have the right to criticize games and other artforms that I think are degrading to women or other demographics. As do you. But saying otherwise is, frankly, insulting. Don't do it. It accomplishes absolutely nothing.

7. LISTEN TO PEOPLE. You saw it firsthand with Morrigan's post; the women on this forum, much like The Site That Must Not Be Named, are tired of speaking up. Making a post and getting involved in the discussion won't change anything, because they're just going to get dismissed and mansplained. If you want to have a postive discussion, and foster a true community of civil, forward-thinking discourse, then you need to be open-minded and listen to those who have experienced this shit and have valuable insight to offer. I'm not saying that the men who participated in this thread don't have valuable things to say; rather, I think it's quite the opposite. Even if I disagreed with you, it fueled discussion. And that's the point of these threads. All I'm saying is just...try to be receptive of new perspectives. Same can be said for me, too. There were times I lost my cool (I have a temper, sorry), but I stand by everything I said.

Later gators.
 

Deleted member 26684

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
220
FF15 actually hits kinda hard because people were expecting that game to show off the male characters to that degree. When it was revealed, a lot of the usual suspects were screaming that Final Fantasy was about to be 'ruined' by this game that was clearly about close male relationships.

I personally like the idea of having games that just sexualize everybody, at least within reason. I certainly don't think simply having such games is going to solve the problem just like that, but it would certainly help to have some. I also appreciate games that generally avoid sexualizing anyone after all, just because that's its own thing that definitely should exist. Options are good! Imbalanced options are poor, whether it's a lack of games that do one or the other, or a lack of games that do either of them properly.
 

MattWilsonCSS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,349
I've always been confused by titillation in video games. Being ace, it's natural for me to not understand, I suppose. But even trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who would be titillated, all I can think is "why?". Maybe for some genres like Visual Novels, Walking Simulators, character-based RPGs.. but, if I'm playing a highly technical character action game that requires focus, or a fighting game, or anything twitchy, why would I want to be distracted or aroused? Like, my party's about to die in a jRPG and I have to put together a plan, some tactics to keep everything together and survive and beat this boss, but the devs want me instead to get turned on by the skimpy clothing? It just.. I guess I just don't get it. I don't know the mindset of people who enjoy that sort of thing and I'll probably never know.

What I do know is that sex selling seems unproven to me in the world of video games. When I grew up buying NES, SNES, and Playstation games, I never bought a game because the box art got me horny. I bought games because I read a positive review in PC Gamer, or because it was from a company I trusted like Nintendo. I've never in my life bought a game because of the possibility of seeing a video game titty or dingus. It's obviously anecdotal evidence so I can't state that this is the majority position (the original Tomb Raider was certainly marketed to horndogs), but I don't believe that I'm alone here. When I played The Witness earlier this year, I never said "this would be a lot better if I was an anime girl whose clothes are ripping apart".

I recognize that it seems to be a bonus for a lot of people who like fanservice and cheese, but if it was never there in the first place, I don't think people here would be missing it. And I know this because I play a ton of indie games that are very successful and they don't need to rely on that stuff. Stardew Valley, which even has romance options, doesn't rely on objectification or terrible wardrobes, and it outsold some AAA games last year.

So is it just a genre thing? Are there genres where people expect it? I guess I'm trying to get to the root of it, since it baffles me. Do people pause the game and grab tissues when they get too excited? Is it just an endorphin thing, like, it's just some extra sugar to sweeten things?
 

SweetNicole

The Old Guard
Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,542
I'm sure you've heard the argument that if you don't like something, boycott it. Don't buy it. Get your friends and acquaintances not to buy it. If there is no market there, the product won't be produced.

What I think is a bit harsh is kink-shaming people who DO enjoy sexualised female characters. Until you can draw a definitive link between appreciation of sexualised female characters in video games and undesirable behaviour in real life, then you are kink-shaming, nothing more.

People fantasise all the time about stuff that others find perverted. Who's to say that someone who is a fine upstanding person in real life can't enjoy watching the cast of Sengan Kagura prancing around in bikinis?

You have to be fucking kidding me with this post.
 

Coricus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,537
Sounds pretty reasonable to me, TC. I agree.

Seems to me these conversations get sideways because it's hard for some folks to admit they like problematic media. So, like, instead there's this effort to prove that "problematic" isn't real. I sometimes like problematic media, most people do. It's OK.
Sometimes I wonder if it'd be easier to have these conversations if we discussed it from the point of view of someone who very clearly loved the games they're criticising, but the more I see weird arguments in places like this thread the more I realize no one would actually be any more receptive to that and it would only serve to make me feel better.

For example on this though, I'm one of those rare people that likes modern Fire Emblem, both artstyle wise and in terms of wacky character interactions. . .but I can admit that showing off the thighs of girl Corrin when MCorrin doesn't is a double standard and in general the foreboding "bad girl" with the scanty clothing is kinda. . .eeh. The weird crushes on the main character that often tie in with that don't really do anything personality wise to distract from it either, even Nowi in her "what are you wearing put on a shirt" at least has motivations that aren't wanting to get some, even if. . .yeah taking a closer look at that outfit Nowi really needs to change out of what the people that were holding her as a glorified circus animal put her in. All of it feels like a waste of perfectly good classes that are already hard to come by as it is, because "sexy" characters bore me and tend to get left at the bottom of the barrel while I play as the funny ones (And the ones that turn into dragons and rabbits/foxes, I'll concede. Sometimes a class overrides my personal attachments. Sometimes.)

But that's the thing: Regardless of the outfits that could use work, I still like modern Fire Emblem. I'm not turning up my nose at a journey with a bunch of characters that might even be my friends by the end just because somebody wore a kinda dumb shirt, but the shirt is still dumb.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
LOL now we're at the "your game criticism is really kink-shaming" level. I thought "the critics of Quiet are the real sexists all along" wasn't gonna get beaten, but here we are!
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,898
JP
As someone who does enjoy some problematic stuff I think something someone said to me earlier explains why a lot of people act this way. I asked if because I enjoyed sexualized media it made me a bad person. They said some people see the things said and instead of taking it as being about the games they see it as about them.

They feel they are being judged. I know sometimes I feel like that. So certain people take to defend those games instead of admitting why they like it.

I admit I like Cindy and Quiet. But I'm not going to say they aren't designed to pander and nothing would change if they gave them more clothes.

I think some people have trouble admitting that. Sorry for rambling.
Why, though? As I said before, you could criticize every single aspect of my favourite games/characters and I wouldn't take it personal. I agree with you, people absolutely act as if they're being attacked, and it's a massive obstacle for the discussion. It just seems like gaming enthusiasts are not great at dealing with criticism (see: review scores outrage).
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,390
Ves is an interesting case indeed, as in both the games she appears in she's openly scolded about her choice of clothing, especially given her profession. I can't help but think that there was more planned about this aspect of her, but it was cut for whatever reason.
Alternatively, CDPR wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

I mean, Roche calls her out for her dress, and she doesn't have anything to say about it. That's right, the writers had nothing to say in defense of how the character designer outfitted her.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Why, though? As I said before, you could criticize every single aspect of my favourite games/characters and I wouldn't take it personal. I agree with you, people absolutely act as if they're being attacked, and it's a massive obstacle for the discussion. It just seems like gaming enthusiasts are not great at dealing with criticism (see: review scores outrage).

I think it's a combination of not being able to take criticism mixed with some of the more intense language used by some posters. When you here "games made for perverted manchildren" it can be taken as an insult if you like those games.

Now I'm not asking people to stop or filter their opinions for other people. Believe me I know that any uncomfortableness I feel is probably ten fold for those doing the complaints. That's just why I think some feel defensive when the topic is brought up.
 

spider

CLANG
On Break
Oct 23, 2017
973
Australia
i mean i love fran and balthier from ff12

but i can acknowledge that she's dressed like a playboy bunny. i can admit that there may be rooms for improvements with regards to her character design.

just because something that i like is criticized, it doesn't mean a personal attack against my person. how hard is it. geez louise.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,170
Why, though? As I said before, you could criticize every single aspect of my favourite games/characters and I wouldn't take it personal. I agree with you, people absolutely act as if they're being attacked, and it's a massive obstacle for the discussion. It just seems like gaming enthusiasts are not great at dealing with criticism (see: review scores outrage).
Some folks unfortunately pour all of their energy into consuming media and never fanning out to become multifaceted individuals, and thus they end up with this sense of ownership over something they really had no hand in. This is on top of many of these men often having little else to give their lives meaning or value. Gaming ends up serving as a replacement for healthier means of building their self-esteem (and given the interactive and often skill-based nature of video games, this is noticeably more effective than consuming other forms of media). Hence, attack their games, you attack their egos. I can easily see this getting far, far worse before it gets better, because a lot of these men are inherently divorced from anything resembling reality - especially if they work during the day in a space that is largely male-dominated.

Hence, my attitude is that game developers and publishers have an inherent responsibility to attempt to educate and police their communities in order to foster a population that does not resort to the horrid tactics we see with #GG and everything tangential to that. That's in addition to social media companies themselves having to do their part, because if they don't, who will? It's not like we can get through to people who fundamentally do not understand human values in the same way as the rest of us.
 
Oct 25, 2017
183
Upstate NY
This rant was inspired by bystesizeimpressions' post, but it's not especially aimed at him.

While many of your points may seem logical - "look at cosplayers, they enjoy it!" "you can choose what games to play!" let developers make what they want!" - they all show naivety regarding the subject and are insensitive of girls' and women's experiences with games.

What I want to say is, people should be free to criticize games, not just for their representation of women mind, and not have to deal with a mountain of pushback from other people immediately getting defensive (although sadly this topic seems to get way more pushback).

I mean look at your post and the post just above you by Pirate Bae, you seem to exemplify the exact kind of attitude she is decrying. I don't know whether you read it before making your post or not but I guess not because you seem to have completely missed her point. You don't have to agree with everything she said (I don't either) but for the love of god be empathetic of women gamers with similar experiences to hers and try to put yourself in their shoes.

Between the casual sexism routinely encountered by women in online games and the frankly embarrassing/demeaning depictions of women in games (and don't make the false equivalency that male characters are objectified, it's not nearly as common or icky), the gaming landscape must be far more difficult to traverse for females than straight males aka the target audience.

I'm not pleased with many depictions of women either, and absolutely we should call for more progressive depictions without completely shutting down creators who don't. That means praising things like the TLoU2 tralier IMO rather than being upset by it (I believe giving a majority-female cast so much agency in TLoU2's world is only a good thing) for example. That means praising the empowered female main characters in Persona 5 or Ciri in Witcher 3, while being able to challenge more questionable aspects of those games.

Vampire Bloodlines Masquerade is my favourite game of all time and while I love the depth of the characters including females, but while I was looking at female character models/outfits I honestly didn't know if the game wanted me to enjoy the exceptional writing or start fapping(!)

If an indie game like Undertale can be so inclusive and just be an awesome game in general, absolutely AAA games can do the same and really they don't have an excuse not to, the "sex sells" argument is paper thin and outdated, and should be abandoned along with those sexist marketing campagns for shitty mobile strategy games.

I'm not going to add anything else for obvious reasons, but, I did want to thank you for approaching your response in such level headed fashion. I would have been willing to carry on and discuss and debate, if this is what I was met with in the first place. Others could and should learn from your example.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
i mean i love fran and balthier from ff12

but i can acknowledge that she's dressed like a playboy bunny. i can admit that there may be rooms for improvements with regards to her character design.

just because something that i like is criticized, it doesn't mean a personal attack against my person. how hard is it. geez louise.

Yea, I do not understand this.
My favorite franchise of recent is Yakuza. I absolutely adore the series, but that doesn't stop me from admitting that it has really awful representation of women. The idea that I would see this as an attack on me is incredibly bizarre.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
It's the same in all media. The same reason game of thrones does it. Same reason adult themed books do it.

Sex sells.

Adult themed games are no different. It would be something else if Mario Odyssey had scantily clad women throughout. But for something like mgs or similar, it's really just a selling point for horny makes. Like a sex scene in every rated R movie in existence. There's only one motivator really.

$$

I expect it to stop if the $$ ever stops coming in.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Why, though? As I said before, you could criticize every single aspect of my favourite games/characters and I wouldn't take it personal. I agree with you, people absolutely act as if they're being attacked, and it's a massive obstacle for the discussion. It just seems like gaming enthusiasts are not great at dealing with criticism (see: review scores outrage).

I think this is just how text-based discussions go. The words are all you get, not tone/inflection/facial expressions/etc. It leaves people assuming the worst when strong language is used, and it's used A LOT in these kinds of discussions. Someone intending a light-hearted tone around may come off as a holier-than-thou douche, which evokes a similarly strong reaction. The whole thing just turns into a shouting match at that point. Not to say there ARE legit ad-hominems thrown out in discussions like these, but that's something you'll see on all sides.

And this definitely isn't exclusive to gaming enthusiasts.
 

SHØGVN

Member
Oct 29, 2017
258
I'm not going to add anything else for obvious reasons, but, I did want to thank you for approaching your response in such level headed fashion. I would have been willing to carry on and discuss and debate, if this is what I was met with in the first place. Others could and should learn from your example.

I wish it was more common for people to politely disagree with each other on the internet haha, I love open debate. By all means you can continue the discussion and elaborate on your views. Also sorry if my post came off as too strongly worded or I was attacking you, I was worried about that.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
I am probably going to reply several times, since I'm coming to this rather late. I'm going to go out of order, too, because I want to start here:
We are more than happy to critique several elements of games - from UI to controls to technical accomplishment to structure to monetisation - is talking characterisation beyond reproach, because surely absolutely every element of every game is the way they want it.

This is such an important post. If someone started a thread right now to talk about the new portable bush in Fortnite Battle Royale, players and people familiar with the game would go back and forth about it, whether it was good, effective, bad, game breaking, etc. It is unlikely, however, that a significant number of responses would be "well, they can make whatever they want, and I'm glad!" Note here in the community thread where it begins to be discussed, for instance.

That difference should tell you something. I went through the threads for the Horizon Zero Dawn DLC, for CoD WWII, for the new Assassin's Creed. There's discussion of various additions, mechanics, merits, drawbacks. There's not this back and forth over well! the devs can do whatever they want! It's just that some people prefer some things while others have different preferences. That is how criticism works. That extends to story and character... and it extends as well to fans who want to talk about how characters are presented visually and in terms of personality. That difference should give everyone who's tempted to say "well, the devs can do what they want!" pause, if only for a moment, before responding. Ask yourself if you've ever criticized something in a game and expected to be able to have a reasoned conversation without someone basically replying "too bad, snowflake, that's dev freedom." Because that's what it comes down to.

Straight male content creators creating content that is their visions/likes primarily, which lines up with being interested in the opposite sex, and idealized "beauty" in the opposite sex. As it's fantasy, you can create slim models, big boobs, big butts and perfect skin very easily. No real-life actors are needed. It's like customizing a sex doll for your creation. Some good reading starting points here

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...01205/the-triggers-sexual-desire-men-vs-women

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...iggers-sexual-desire-pt-2-what-s-erotic-women
This is indeed a good starting place and it's fascinating to see how this plays out if you look even further. For instance, even male characters who are supposed to be sexy or appealing often display characteristics not in line with what people attracted to men prefer, but what heteronormative men think those attractive to men prefer. This is part of what I'm working on for my dissertation and you have to cross a lot of disciplinary research to see all the connections, but it's fascinating. The interdisciplinarity though is part of why I like studying games.

and using that as leverage in many genres that are still heavily male-dominated

https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

https://quanticfoundry.com/2016/12/15/primary-motivations/

It would be like asking why in the thousands of romance novels that exist, the male archetype is routinely financially successful, tall, dark-haired, in-shape (sometimes muscular, but at least not overweight), adventurous, risk-taking and often quite dominant/forceful. A difference between novels and gaming though is literally hardly any males read romance novels (because males prefer visual stimulus), but even with the stats/polling above, many females play games. Therefore, on the argument of sales, it can be argued why would romance novels try and be more diverse as no males would buy them anyway? They're catering almost exclusively to their target demographic and the stats back it up.

It's mainly a combination of what ticks in the male generalized creators/audiences minds, sexually/erotically, and how the target marker stacks up for potential sales/interests (is this genre heavily male dominated?). Diversity can come from creating less risk adverse content, and potentially more employment diversity in the industry. Plus, not every male dev/content creator does put out adult/sexual content, there is diversity in the market currently even if many argue it's not currently good enough.

Explanations for why above, including biology/psychology, shouldn't be mistaken for me suggesting that it should always be the case. Some people ask why, but then don't want to engage in some realities as to why.
Though as much as I like Nick Yee and his research, I do want to caution anyone from leaning too heavily on these or any other stats. Yee's project here is volunteer survey data, which is never quite the strongest and also doesn't get at some primary questions (which I'll talk about in a second). Yee's data here is very revealing and does tell us a lot about games, and players, but it also doesn't tell us as much about what might happen. No current data can. Yee himself in his book the Proteus Paradox talks about the ways women are shut out from gaming at all levels, from walking into a store to being in the industry. If we look at that in line with some of the genres his data indicates are least played by women, we can draw a lot of correlations to the space made for women in those games, from design to community. A few years ago, Julia Mason wrote this really wonderful piece about the gaps in trying to build a design ecology for games. We simply don't have the same data for games and the process as we do for other forms of media, and that means we just don't know as much as we think we know in many cases. There was a thread on twitter recently from a dev, too, about the obfuscation of the design process and how it can be purposeful to protect from toxic fan reaction. The entanglements around game development, games' affective qualities, and audience, are tangled indeed.

what about male characters? They are straight up jacked, shredded, coming out of marvel comic books.

I think this is more an issue with Japanese games. Well, they have a 'peculiar" taste, so to speak.

I picked this post because these are both common arguments and neither are wrong but they aren't a whole story. Male characters may be idealized but aren't sexualized in the same way; that's an entirely different psychological impact and while it's troubling, it can come from a similar place as female sexualization. Further, trying to write this off as only Japanese games is a bit reductive. It's different, certainly, possibly "worse" if we're assigning value in that way, but I think acting like we don't see issues in Western games is putting blinders on at best.

There's still a difference between hot characters and poorly designed characters that are made in a degrading way with improbable outfits that barely cover anything. Like, Spider-Man's ripped, but he's at least not usually presented like a piece of meat.
^^see also, this - and when we're talking about superheroes, that's a whole different ballgame altogether.

Most of the time, it's because writers and designers just don't know how to create a female character. They aren't friends with women, they don't work with women, they don't speak extensively with women, and their most regular exposure to women and femininity comes from media written by other men designed for men to consume. This happens a lot in male-dominated societies. When the only women you speak to extensively are the ones you're sleeping with, you become unable to portray or even understand women in any other context beyond your attraction to them.

So when writers start laying out a story, they automatically write characters as male. They don't even think about it. When the story needs a best friend or a manager or a shopkeeper or police officer, they are automatically male whether the author is consciously creating them as such or not. This is how entire stories get written without a single female character (Lawrence of Arabia, for example, features no speaking female characters whatsoever). But most writers are conscious enough to realize they haven't written any women, so they add one. Because the only way they understand female characters is in relation to the male ones they've already created, the female character usually becomes an accessory. A wife, a daughter, a love interest, etc. This is why, famously, most women who have won Oscars win them for playing wives. This is also why women often don't talk to each other or share scenes with each other because they're only there for male characters to talk to. This is how their roles are written.

And since the first thing male writers usually think about women is how hot they may or may not be, it comes through in the writing almost immediately. There is a funny, and also sad, Vogue article about this phenomenon here that mostly focuses on an entire Twitter dedicated to female character intros in scripts written by men. Here is an example:



Even men capable of writing terrific, complex, and interesting characters fall into this trap of writing shitty women because they so strongly associate them with sex that they don't know any other way to introduce them.

When it comes to video games, which are often designed independently from a legitimately ambitious story, characters are designed with even less connective tissue. The player becomes the stand-in for a male main character, even when a male main character exists, so the designers write roles for how they relate to an assumed male player. This is why they are disproportionately young girls who need protecting or sex objects for lusting over (or both).

Truthfully, female character designs and legitimate female characterizations have gotten way better over the last few years. But the problems they've always faced, in every medium, still persist. There are sexualized female characters that are still good and interesting leads (Bayonetta, 2B) and there is absolutely a place for characters like this. The issue is proportion, or more accurately disproportion, and how frequently overly objectified female are there specifically to ellicit erections instead of emotions.


I like that you bring out that Twitter - that's such a great example. And there's research that indicates games are on a curve that is providing better visuals and characterizations, at least. But sometimes we only see improvements in the most simplistic ways. Choice between a male and female avatar, for instance, but no real change. Slightly less exaggerated body but still tropish in terms of role. There was an interesting piece recently on First Person Scholar that talked about the problems with voice, for instance.

While I understand the issues it can present, I like that people like Kojima can make the games they want to make, and I can play them

I hope that we see a positive change in the number of female developers having creative control which leads to plenty of options for female representation that is not objectified, and I believe we are definitely making progress

10 years ago you wouldn't have seen a AAA game headed up by a character like Ellie

I also hope we still get characters like Cindy or Quiet. Sometimes you just want that kind of entertainment
No one is saying they can't happen. What the OP is doing is criticizing. Same as with any other element of a game or piece of media that is seen by some as subpar. We can't move ahead if we don't stop seeing criticism as some kind of threat.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
I'm not going to add anything else for obvious reasons, but, I did want to thank you for approaching your response in such level headed fashion. I would have been willing to carry on and discuss and debate, if this is what I was met with in the first place. Others could and should learn from your example.
Okay, okay, please hear me out. Maybe you have a point. Maybe this "recreational outrage" thing is true. But if you were truly coming into the discussion with good faith, maybe it's not a good idea to just casually suggest that the feelings of the people involved on the matter might not be genuine? I mean, I hope it's obvious why people would home in that point in particular and react negatively.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
I'm sure you've heard the argument that if you don't like something, boycott it. Don't buy it. Get your friends and acquaintances not to buy it. If there is no market there, the product won't be produced.

What I think is a bit harsh is kink-shaming people who DO enjoy sexualised female characters. Until you can draw a definitive link between appreciation of sexualised female characters in video games and undesirable behaviour in real life, then you are kink-shaming, nothing more.

People fantasise all the time about stuff that others find perverted. Who's to say that someone who is a fine upstanding person in real life can't enjoy watching the cast of Sengan Kagura prancing around in bikinis?

Do you know what kink shaming is?

I invite you to step into the Kinky OT thread. Please feel free to come and talk about your kinks or ask questions about what kink is. Especially, feel free to ask me any questions as I wrote the kink section. <3
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,214
Canada
I've been seeing that. Just curious about the FF15 defenses if there has been any.

It makes me sad that 'Stella' was this non-exitent entity people preferred over Luna was revealed, and they showed Luna with a trident in one scene and we had to 'give her a chance' but it turned out the worst was true: She was shown off and shown off and did...like nothing. It was Jihl Nabaat but even more "vital" to the plot.
 

PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,020
Add me to the "list of women that will never be long enough".

Just gotta say, the "then don't buy/play it" arguments are really grating. Anyone who recognizes me, probably remembers me from Digimon related threads. I, along with a few other posters, pushed Cyber Sleuth hard when it was announced for the West. Not only was it the first Digimon game to release here in a long time, it was a really good game in its own right. I spent hours playing the Japanese version, taking screenshots of every awesome Digimon model I could. I bought it again when it released here. You could say I am a big fan of Digimon and want to see it succeed.

Unfortunately, the game's designs for its female characters is atrocious. Not only do their outfits make no practical sense, they don't even represent some of the characters well at all:
rsEGzAa.jpg

What is this woman's job? What's her personality? If you didn't know anything about the game, you couldn't get close with a guess.

And yet, people are telling me it's my problem. I shouldn't play this game if I have issues with the female character designs, because fuck me for wanting to see more good Digimon games, right?
 

GraphicViolets

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
985
I'm not going to add anything else for obvious reasons, but, I did want to thank you for approaching your response in such level headed fashion. I would have been willing to carry on and discuss and debate, if this is what I was met with in the first place. Others could and should learn from your example.
That's really rude and sexist. Speaking over the heads of women to use the one post you felt comfortable with to tone police them. It might read like a compliment but its very adversarial.
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
US
For many publishers teenage boys are main target and what sells games to them better than boobs. This is sad and I don't think it will end soon. It's all about money
You could make a culture where people didn't jump to cater to teen boys and teen boys alone, but maybe that's just too haaaaaard
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,898
JP
Add me to the "list of women that will never be long enough".

Just gotta say, the "then don't buy/play it" arguments are really grating. Anyone who recognizes me, probably remembers me from Digimon related threads. I, along with a few other posters, pushed Cyber Sleuth hard when it was announced for the West. Not only was it the first Digimon game to release here in a long time, it was a really good game in its own right. I spent hours playing the Japanese version, taking screenshots of every awesome Digimon model I could. I bought it again when it released here. You could say I am a big fan of Digimon and want to see it succeed.

Unfortunately, the game's designs for its female characters is atrocious. Not only do their outfits make no practical sense, they don't even represent some of the characters well at all:
rsEGzAa.jpg

What is this woman's job? What's her personality? If you didn't know anything about the game, you couldn't get close with a guess.

And yet, people are telling me it's my problem. I shouldn't play this game if I have issues with the female character designs, because fuck me for wanting to see more good Digimon games, right?
You would think Japan is this super liberal, sex-positive utopia going by their otaku entertainment, lol. I don't use otaku entertainment in a derogatory way here - this is absolutely limited to anime/games. You're not going to see any cleavage if you come to Tokyo, or if you consume mainstream Japanese media.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,588
I'm not going to add anything else for obvious reasons, but, I did want to thank you for approaching your response in such level headed fashion. I would have been willing to carry on and discuss and debate, if this is what I was met with in the first place. Others could and should learn from your example.
Do I take this to mean that you are leaving this thread, and all others regarding criticism by and for women?
 

SHØGVN

Member
Oct 29, 2017
258
Add me to the "list of women that will never be long enough".

Just gotta say, the "then don't buy/play it" arguments are really grating. Anyone who recognizes me, probably remembers me from Digimon related threads. I, along with a few other posters, pushed Cyber Sleuth hard when it was announced for the West. Not only was it the first Digimon game to release here in a long time, it was a really good game in its own right. I spent hours playing the Japanese version, taking screenshots of every awesome Digimon model I could. I bought it again when it released here. You could say I am a big fan of Digimon and want to see it succeed.

Unfortunately, the game's designs for its female characters is atrocious. Not only do their outfits make no practical sense, they don't even represent some of the characters well at all:
rsEGzAa.jpg

What is this woman's job? What's her personality? If you didn't know anything about the game, you couldn't get close with a guess.

And yet, people are telling me it's my problem. I shouldn't play this game if I have issues with the female character designs, because fuck me for wanting to see more good Digimon games, right?

Yeah her's and Nokia's outfits really are more than a little risque. I just ended up putting it to the back of my mind because I was enjoying the game so much...at least they are actually well written characters.

I've just come to expect those kind of outfits in Japanese games...am I bad by becoming numb to it and not letting it affect my enjoyment? I don't know. Off-topic but are you hyped for Cyber Sleuth 2, regardless? :D
 

Chocobo115

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,311
Sweden
I'm sure you've heard the argument that if you don't like something, boycott it. Don't buy it. Get your friends and acquaintances not to buy it. If there is no market there, the product won't be produced.

What I think is a bit harsh is kink-shaming people who DO enjoy sexualised female characters. Until you can draw a definitive link between appreciation of sexualised female characters in video games and undesirable behaviour in real life, then you are kink-shaming, nothing more.

People fantasise all the time about stuff that others find perverted. Who's to say that someone who is a fine upstanding person in real life can't enjoy watching the cast of Sengan Kagura prancing around in bikinis?

But how should people know it is a problem if you're silent about it? We started to see the issues around the Gamergate incident (at least I did). Before that I wasn't that aware of it besides finding the potrayal of Bayonetta problematic.

We're seeing more varity in characters and Stories. And thanks to the Videos Anita Sarkelsteen (sp?) I'm more aware of the issues in gaming.

Anyways how is anything supposed to change/improve if you're staying quiet. I don't think just staying silent admist all the fatal shooting in the US will lead to any change in American gun laws.
 

Jotakori

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,182
I'm not going to add anything else for obvious reasons, but, I did want to thank you for approaching your response in such level headed fashion. I would have been willing to carry on and discuss and debate, if this is what I was met with in the first place. Others could and should learn from your example.

Okay, I just want to say this kind of post comes across incredibly condescending. Like GraphicViolets said, you're effectively trying to tone police others because you don't feel they were being polite enough with your opinions, but you need to realize a lot of your opinions come across as extremely impolite to others to begin with. Trying to brush the feelings of women off as recreational outrage or telling us "well just don't play those games" or trying to both sides the sexualization completely misses the point and only works to invalidate all the women trying to speak up about why these are problems for us. It's no wonder people are reacting so harshly, and maybe you need to take that as an opportunity to reflect on why people are acting that way towards you.
 

PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,020
Yeah her's and Nokia's outfits really are more than a little risque. I just ended up putting it to the back of my mind because I was enjoying the game so much...at least they are actually well written characters.

I've just come to expect those kind of outfits in Japanese games...am I bad by becoming numb to it and not letting it affect my enjoyment? I don't know. Off-topic but are you hyped for Cyber Sleuth 2, regardless? :D
I try to ignore these types of outfits in Japanese games for my sanity. I think the fact that it was Digimon is what made it feel more jarring than usual. (At least it didn't get the Medabots treatment.) It's too bad, because, like you said, they are actually well-written characters. The weird attire completely undermines them.

As for the OT comment: Of course! KuwabaraTheMan and I are collaborating on the OT.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
For those thinking "only a few internet radical feminists have a problem with this", well, not only this is not true as we can see with the multiple women talking about this here and largely agreeing on major points, but here are some voices from women left unheard simply because defending these ideas are too exhausting, annoying, or frustrating for them (posted these quotes from the REgals OT with their permission):
edit: whoops, forgot: this is key. this is important. we are tired. many of us have been doing this all our lives. and all we want is some consideration as gamers.

I think it is important to fight sexism, but don't games exist to do what you couldn't or shouldn't do in real life? I could never drive a car through pedestrians or kill nazis or watch a half-naked sniper girl in her prison cell in reality. I like to do those things in games because it is a fantasy. I think using games as an education on how to morally behave is wrong and I have doubts that it even would work: After all we don't have a million serial killer kids even though games "teach" that way of thinking. So apparantly players can already tell reality and fantasy apart. But then what should be wrong with sexism in games?

Because if we take that as a real issue, shouldn't we fight all games where people shoot people as well? Or where reckless driving is promoted? No gamer , male or female, wants that, right? So let games be games and let us fight sexism and racism and violence where it matters, the real world.
Someone's already said it, but if you are a woman who likes the kind of games that aren't as heavily populated by women as per data in Yee's survey, say - sports games, tactical shooters, action games, etc. - there's often not a lot that allows the same kind of escapism. Of course "women" is not a monolithic idea, but it would be great if I had more chances to be a woman blowing shit up and going on crime sprees and driving my car through walls and slapping fools. Even games that purportedly feature strong female protagonists tend to fall into some traps.

People need to realize that advocating for more positive and diverse character representation in games doesn't mean that's how they want every game to be, they just advocate for more of it. That's a good thing. We can have games that titillate as well as games that take their subject matter seriously. It doesn't particularly matter to me if some of it is out of place as long as we have the diversity of representation, frankly.
^^^yes. This. And we can have games that make sense and don't try to do all the things at once. Not every game necessarily needs to titillate... or if it must, it sure would be glad to see some equal opportunity titillation. I mean, I like a big ol' round ass as much as the next woman with a great deal of sexual fluidity but it doesn't have to be the only thing dropped into a game that's supposed to get the heart pumping.

Of course, this brushes up against a much bigger issue wherein women in many Western cultures are encouraged to have some sexual fluidity while men are not.

Good stuff, again, thanks for that. Total of 56% married/unmarried living together and 42% female ownership, interesting.
I wonder how this data handles people like my husband and I, who own one Xbox One and share it, as well as the Live account. I believe it's in my name. But I know hetero couples who are the reverse; maybe the Live account is in his name but she also plays. These are the issues with such data - also sometimes the buyer isn't the player, etc., etc. and since a lot of data we have deals with buyers... ehhh, who really knows?

Seems to me like society has always valued women's beauty more than men's, and that this is the reason why we see more sexualised designs of women in the media. It feels like a symptom of our cultural relationship between male sexuality and female beauty, not a cause. Would taking sexualised designs out of all video games really change the different way we see and judge male and females bodies? I can't see it. I don't think this is something you can actually legislate out of the human condition, to be honest. I think it's a natural difference in the genders. Men are more visual and value physical attractiveness higher than women do, thus women are heavily pressured to be attractive. Media reflects that pressure, it doesn't create it, though it can increase its reach or effect on a girl I suppose.
Yo, hold up. What society? What's always? We're not talking about one monolithic society and "always" doesn't even apply here. Generalizations tend to introduce issues into discussions like these; best to avoid when we can, you know? It's further reductive to say media only reflects culture; it's more of a cycle, media reflecting and feeding in and helping to create and reinforce and then media reflecting... and on and on and on. These are entanglements rather than a simple one-way flow.

As for censorship, from wikipedia: "Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or "inconvenient" as determined by government authorities or by community consensus.

This is how I define it, and it's close enough for me to say that this kind of criticism IS related to censorship - bearing in mind the community consensus part of the definition. Trying to create a community consensus whereby people can't or won't make certain types of art - that's absolutely censorship.
Back to something I said earlier: why does this keep happening? With games specifically? Is it the element of embodiment that makes so many men in particular defensive about the status quo?

Let's look at television. In the last few years, we see this plethora of shows featuring more diverse characters. And yet there's still a billion police procedurals and sitcoms and all sorts of stuff that was popular ten, fifteen years ago. It didn't go away. New opportunities were simply offered to capitalize on markets that were finally realized. And I get that the data isn't there for games - and it's harder to get because often when we get games that have strong female protags that aren't games women tend to traditionally play, they're poorly marketed or they're dumbed down in some way. Makes studios less likely to take risks. Sure. But we do have data that indicates that some adjustments, some space for different games, could lead to success. Space for different games, for different characters, isn't censorship. It's evolution.

Many times either the journalist/critic speaks over the dev and tries to make him change his work with words and humiliation and other times the dev are the ones being pieces of shit. Women have gotten the worse of it for sure, but it is still an issue for both ends.
This line gets pushed a lot. Rarely is it backed up with clear evidence.

While it's great to have input from women here, it would be kind of foolish to think that they speak for all women. That's something that goes both ways, if a woman would post here that she's not bothered by it it wouldn't be representative either. Add to that, that the women who we're talking about are the ones who wouldn't post on a gaming forum. The opinion of the general audience is something you can only really back up with studies or surveys which I haven't seen so far (but good chance that I missed it)
I don't even know where to begin with this, to be honest. For one, there are surveys and studies in this thread. For two, I'm a researcher myself and I know more studies and surveys. For three, surveys aren't always great data, period. For four, no one's saying the women in this thread are the end-all but if we're not going to start by listening to them, where are we gonna start?
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,823
Jesus...this thread shouldn't be almost 30 fuckin' pages long...
Look I'm Bi, I love lookin' at sexy ladies as much as straight boys do.
As a storyteller and cartoonist myself I've got plenty of sexualized lady characters in my own science-fantasy comic running around in bodycon dresses and 6 inch pumps fighting ghosts n' whatnot (though that's partly due to my love of feminine fashion as a gender-nonconforming queer guy, but that's neither here nor there)
I will never feel bad or be embarrased about enjoying sexualized, hyper feminine female character designs or even creating them.
BUT the women who do have issues with this alarmingly rampant practice are coming at this thing from a very reasonable place, from a place of marginalization and exhaustion (which trust me, I understand), there really shouldn't be such a vehement backlash to this kind of criticism.
Because at the end of the day it's really not hard me to love the Bayonettas of the world but also agree that maybe some big mainstream devs/creators should absolutely rethink the way they approach designing female characters, and that for every____themed pin-up girl like Samara, Camilla, Cindy Aurum, or Widowmaker there should probably be 4 Cassandra Pentaghast, Lucenia, or Ana Amari-esque characters in the spotlight.

And good lord, it's just CRI-TI-CISM...nobody's forcing these folks to immediately change their characters right this second, and absolutely nobody's calling them awful or evil people who need to be kicked out of the industry because they like plunging necklines and cleavage.
It's not like some successful contracted industry artist is just sobbing into his pillow right now because a few chicks on a forum somewhere don't like his design choices and have applied basic feminist critique to it.
Like it's fine to disagree and defend what you like, but geez louis calm down fellas. Everything will be fine.
 
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Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Just gonna keep chugging along here....

https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/ This actually says that 48% of the Dragon Age Inquistion player base was female. And BioWare MMO, SWTOR, also has alot higher % of female gamers then are normal in that genre(3 times higher if you exclude SWTOR from the average). That would suggest if you design for women, they will come. You just have to actually design for them first. And Dragon Age Inquisition was actually BioWare's fastest selling title, so including women in the design demographic clearly didn't hurt them (Including Women, also doesn't mean excluding guys- there's nothing really objectionable to guys in DAI)

I'd also like to point out that I play SWTOR and have encountered a number of other women that also play it online. Despite this, and despite using a female avater, people still think I'm dude.

If I had a dollar for every time I have been assumed male while gaming...

I'm glad you brought this back. And rather than quoting the dude who was all THE WIMMIN LIKE ROMANCE!! I'll just point out that this is in keeping with Yee's data about the types of games women like and their motivations. I may not think the data is the end-all, but it's some of the best we have on this and it tells a particular story about what people are playing that exists now. And it's not just because lolromance.

Leather, plate and chain armour with equivalent, similar designs for both men and women?

/seamlessly back on topic
Quoting this just to say it's really nice in a game when I have a female avatar, which is always my preference, and I don't have to worry about her ass cheeks hanging out of her "heavy" armor.

Again with the nerd gatekeeping. Women have to constantly prove that they're "real fans," how is this any different? Do you want all of the women on ResetERA to come in here and tell you what their gaming habits are? I don't think any of us on this forum should have to justify why we play the video games we do.
This is such an insidious issue. We are continually challenged and when we answer, we're trying to censor. It's hard to even have conversations. Heaven forbid we get heated, too; then we're hysterical or we are not engaging correctly.

I thought the romances were boring and dumb
ALSO SAME

The only game where I've gotten into the romance aspect at all was Stardew Valley, which I never wanted to play until I played it, and I decried the romance options until suddenly I found myself pursuing my lovely wife Penny. Usually I find the pursuit of romance in games boring and poorly written. Much like many romance novels, actually.

The point is to have a diversity of media such that each party partaking in the media have options that represent their interests. You don't need to remove one option to enable another option. They are not mutually exclusive. It's about making the pool bigger, not eliminating parts of it.

You can't please all audiences with singular products. It's not possible, and attempts at doing so are usually poorly designed.
Excuse me, though: who is asking for all games to appeal to all audiences? This is just another attempt at silencing the discussion. And listen, I'm not saying you mean to. I'm saying this is something we hear a lot. It's how our input gets shunted aside. Can't do it. Not possible. Human nature. More men than women. Not realistic. It's the same shit all the time and all it does is tell us we are not valued in this community or industry.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
I'm tired of this "games cater to teenage boys" falsehood. The statistics show that the average age of a gamer is WELL beyond the teenage years with men in their late 20s and early 30s being the largest gamer demographic on consoles and PCs (source: the ESA). So unless you're going to argue that when you say "catering to teenage boys" you actually mean "catering to grown men who either should know better or never mentally developed past puberty", I think we need to put this falsehood to bed.

EDIT: Even if you say that only applies in Japan, well... from what little I've seen of the CESA Games White Papers (which I can't cite because the reports are gated behind paywalls), the trend is not much different and is less relevant when talking about games released to international markets.
 
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Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
I get conflicted because I can see the harm that female stereotyping can have on women but I find it tough to pin sexual content in games as any kind of concrete cause of those stereotypes and thus struggle to see a specific causal link to specific harm done.
I totally agree about the way young women see their bodies being a crisis, I just don't know what the main cause of it is. That's the kind of thing where I'd need to see some studies. I've never thought that a sexualised gaming character could contribute to that, but maybe I've been mistaken. I read the Guardian daily and I've seen articles like this which show that 36% of girls believe looks to be paramount but I'm not exactly educated about it.

...if only there was a way to hear from those most directly affected....

Yes, sarcasm, but I mean, honestly. We can let the affected lead those conversations and spend more time listening.

I just gave my point of view of the situation as I have seen it from growing up being a gamer. A lot of the geeks that thought/think themselves as rejects of society used to be the main audience for gaming in the 80s/90s and when gaming became mainstream they started getting called out and even humiliated by people like Anita Sarkeesian that came in to criticize and not contribute. Instead of having a conversation is was basically her and some other people like her telling them to be ashamed of their work because of sexualized characters.

It all boils down to:
"Instead of trying to see my point you attacked it."

You attacked my point because you didn't understand it instead of asking about it you falsely made an assumption to criticize that point ( I am mad a people criticizing devs?) you failed to understand.

I guess you kind of prove my point that you got angry focusing on one thing I said you didn't agree with, instead of having a conversation to understand it. It is what happens with critics a lot.
First: This is some awfully gamergatey discourse here.
Second:
Criticism is contribution. Criticizing a work for having sexist elements is not the same thing as criticizing a designer for being a sexist.
Third: will follow after this:
Not quoting every reply but speaking to a point everyone brought up.

Criticism as a contribution.

I totally get your points, but I think the criticism is not contribution when the person that criticizes allows no space for the person that he/she is criticizing to contribute to the conversation or to speak the reasoning behind his position( wrong or not). When they do not allow space to understand their opposite viewpoints then I see it as an attack on the person's livelihood.

This is what I am speaking of and the thing I saw. It is plain criticism vs constructive criticism.

I see it as humiliating because, as I said before, she did not let the person in the case I was speaking of to show their side of things or even contribute to the conversation.

Maybe I am wrong, but I guess that kind of criticism rubs me the wrong way sometimes because some people criticizing could easily get involved and make change happen instead of making change happen by pressuring other to change their vision( right or wrong vision of course).
Let me explain two things to you that may make clear the underlying issue with what you're saying here. First, critics, reviewers, and academics are not shutting down the possibility for response. Dialogue is possible. Studio makes games. Players play games, Player-critics/scholars respond to games; fan-players respond to games. Studio responds as they wish or not at all. There's no shutdown or erasure here. If one element in that equation chooses to be shitty about it, well, that can happen. But response is response.

Then sometimes we have an example like one of Ian Bogost's recent articles, in which he danced all around his colleague Janet Murray's work without ever mentioning her or giving credit to work she had done in the area, and hey, he's also blocked her - his colleague - on social media, and he did not bother to respond to anyone who said anything about that erasure. Bogost, unlike Sarkeesian (who for whatever faults you want to ascribe to her, does credit the work of others and does engage, though I cannot blame femfreq for not wanting to police comments, I mean, god), just rolls on without a care in the world and is celebrated for it. He says games shouldn't bother with stories or characters, and he's not subjected to the same attacks, with people yelling that devs should be allowed their creative freedom, either.

Wonder why that is.

Critics do all sorts of work. Scholars, too. Reviewers same. But those who push for inclusivity are attacked much more frequently than those who critique other aspects.
glorious post was indeed glorious; go visit it for yourself

Human beings are sexual creatures,
sigh
this is just so lazy.
and the gaming industry, as well as music, film, advertising, you name it, all take advantage of this in order to sell product. It's not done because there's some gross misunderstanding of what a certain sex is supposed to represent… it's done because people have an 'oh, shiny!' mentality that can be exploited time and time again. Some people take this extremely personally and I don't think they should. We all have a 'basic' nature within us, and industries the world over will cater to that... because it sells.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with those baser instincts. Is having a scantily clad character in a video game actually 'disrespectful' and 'degrading', or is there an aspect of recreational outrage at play lately? I mean, how about all the cosplayers that dress up as some of the offending characters? They enjoy the costumes. They appreciate the design. Are they ignorant or just having fun?

I appreciate that the OP is looking at this more realistically, and is expressing disappointment in sex being used when it doesn't serve a game narratively. I agree with that one hundred percent. I don't think sex or flesh need to be used gratuitously. I don't complain if there's fan service in my games, but I'd much rather that content serve an actual purpose. There's nothing wrong with skimpy clothing or sex or the human body, and such portrayals aren't inherently bad just because some people don't like them.

I hate to be 'that guy', but more often than not, we know what we're getting into. We know which games have fan service in them. It's clear by the designs we see in all the marketing material. If you're offended by certain outfits or exaggerations of the body, people should stay away from those games. It's like that old saying... there's a knob on the radio if you don't like the station, you know?

Anyway, selling sex is no more disgusting than selling us microtransactions or loot boxes. All of these things are meant to appeal to baser instincts of human behavior, and although we complain about such practices, people still feed into them by buying season passes in advance without knowing what content they'll ultimately receive, or without knowing what they'll get in that next loot box. Sex is just another tool that's utilized to sell copies of a game and make more money for investors.

It's also worth pointing out that men - not nearly as much as women, I understand - are also often hyper sexualized in video games. Everyone either looks like Neo from the Matrix, an emo dude, or Fabio with impossible body ratio muscle mass. Can we also complain about how it's degrading and giving a bad representation of men? In Conan, dudes can run around in the buff. Hell, there's an actual slider for endowment. How often do we see conversations about this?

Take it all in as a bit of fun, or don't. That's the power we have as consumers. Exercise purchasing power as freely as you'd like. Freedom of speech is great, too, but this air of 'something has to be done' lately is off the mark. Let designers design what they want... speak with your wallet later.
yes, yes, we'll just let the market work out it... which is great if, y'know, you're the majority and okay for the minority if people listen, but for everyone else, well, fuck off I guess, too bad for you!
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I'm sure you've heard the argument that if you don't like something, boycott it. Don't buy it. Get your friends and acquaintances not to buy it. If there is no market there, the product won't be produced.

What I think is a bit harsh is kink-shaming people who DO enjoy sexualised female characters. Until you can draw a definitive link between appreciation of sexualised female characters in video games and undesirable behaviour in real life, then you are kink-shaming, nothing more.

People fantasise all the time about stuff that others find perverted. Who's to say that someone who is a fine upstanding person in real life can't enjoy watching the cast of Sengan Kagura prancing around in bikinis?
I'm aware of what kink shaming is. Asking for a more balanced depiction of characters representing half of society across the medium in general is not kink shaming. Crap female outfits are way out of balance with what would be a niche 'kink'. If people want to protect their niche kink of cartoon schoolgirl ninjas with big tits then have at it, it's when treating female characters like sex objects is still pervasive across series that have been running for decades and are pretty much mainstream in that anyone who plays games is aware of them that it's ridiculous. Nobody wants to take those niche games away, in the same way that I find shit female character depiction in a superhero film aimed at kids more annoying in its pervasive influence than one in a porn film or erotic novel where it's only purpose is to titilate.
 
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Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Recreational outrage is sort of this phenomonon we've been seeing in recent years where people are getting overly sensitive about things they don't really care about as much as they think they do. They care so much and express it so much because that's where culture is at right now. It's blame culture and a lot of stuff is getting thrown under the bus because people get swept up in the momentum of being a part of these righteous conversations. People love to feel right and to be validated.

You're wrong about some new surge of "outrage." What you see are more platforms and amplified voices.

You're wrong that people don't really care, and that's a condescending assumption. It's as ridiculous as the people who think critics and scholars aren't really gamers, and man, let me tell you, it's not worth the time or effort to do critical work on games unless you care. It's incredibly time consuming and not exactly a fun ride when it comes with threats and rage.

I was stating my opinion. I don't think there was anything actually oversensitive about my post. And rage culture is very much a thing these days. I'm not sure how that's deniable and an idea worthy of being demoted to a 'word salad', but if you're not willing to engage seriously about it, our conversation is over.
"It's very much a thing these days because I said so," is what I'm seeing here. What is it exactly that you're engaging seriously? All I'm seeing from you are assumptions under the guide of "your opinion," which is as empty as the purported notion of outrage culture. Do you want to discuss framing backed by evidence? Examples? Theory? Or do you just want to tell women, as you later did, how they should respond to you if they don't want you to take your toys and go home? I mean, much of what you're saying here:

I don't know. I basically stated that I respect where the OP is coming from... sexuality for gratuity's sake is less appealing than having some narrative base, but at the same time, if fan service is in a game, I don't think it's the end of the world, you know? Not -every- product out there has to be entirely inclusive. Certain things are made for certain audiences all the time. Are men the target audience by AAA developers and studios more often than not? I suppose so, but the hyper sexualization out there isn't just a one way street. There's also plenty of designs which portray men in a weird and unrealistic light, too. And I also went on to state that the main reason why this happens in the first place is because it's just common sense from a marketing and sales point perspective.

Of course it can work both ways. Don't take my generalized statement for an all encompassing blanket statement. Rage culture is very real, and it certainly has shaped this conversation online to a certain degree. TIn fact, in addressing the OP, I stated that I was happy that they were taking a more level headed approach to the situation and expressing more of a disgust or disappointment in sexuality when it's overtly gratuitous just for the sake of being so. So many others have a 'zero tolerance' policy in regards to hyper sexualisation, and that's when I think the conversation takes a weird turn. Case in point, I feel my entire point that was made was compartmentalized into a box and a small component is now being taken out of context. Take the post in its entirety into consideration instead of a sound byte.

The rage culture component does exist, and it tends to carry gross exaggerations. Someone earlier said that if women were to avoid playing games that over sexualised them there'd be nothing left to play. I mean, off the top of my head I can think of Hellblade, Uncharted, The Last of Us, Mario, Ratchet and Clank, Inside, Resident Evil VII, Splatoon, Cuphead, Gears of War 4, Halo 5, The Division, etc. That's only off the top of my head. I'm sure there'd be plenty of games left to play. Hyper sexualisation exists but it doesn't seep its way into every single product. That's one of the gross exaggerations I'm talking about.

It honestly makes entering conversations like this a scary thing to do. You feel like no matter how you express yourself, you're bound to step on a mine. I've expressed myself clearly and articulately, and yet here we are.

I'll bow out of the conversation now because it seems nobody wants to engage me here realistically.

has already been addressed in the thread. Perhaps then the person not engaging realistically is you?

Sometimes I wonder if it'd be easier to have these conversations if we discussed it from the point of view of someone who very clearly loved the games they're criticising, but the more I see weird arguments in places like this thread the more I realize no one would actually be any more receptive to that and it would only serve to make me feel better.
I played MGSV for months. I will happily discuss the ridiculous nature of Quiet at length (and have).
I played loads of Dead Island. I will be more than happy to discuss the troubling stereotypes in the game, the treatment of sexual assault, and the presentation of the characters.
I could continue. I mean, do I have to wear my gamerscore on my forehead? I don't know if that's what you mean but that's how it feels, for sure.
 
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Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I love how just 3 posts after the awesome Pirate_bae post we had another one with the "what about cosplays" and "humans are sexual creatures" like if we were some kind of mindless animals.
And of course the post up here about "kink shaming".

Pirate is true, the thread has run it's course, people just do whatever it takes to spin the situation so they'are able to brush the problems or even make themselves the victims. I understand how some people think it's not worth anymore.
 
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Abominuz

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,550
Netherlands
There is no solution or justification, sex sells. And as long as some woman use there womanhood for it in the media it will never change. Just open Instagram and see how many woman objectify themselves.
I am with you on this, but sometimes the problem is being pointed at men but the problem lies with both. As long as people buy these games where woman are overly sexualised, it wont go away.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
With a view to a better thread next time, honestly, I feel like these threads need a beginners guide.
1) nobody wants to remove the cartoon titties. If you like a particularly niche otaku game, it's probably not one of the ones being talked about here, which is why characters in multi-million sellers like Quiet pops up more than schoolgirl ninjas in these discussions.
2) criticism is not censorship. We criticise some aspects of games all day long without demanding their expulsion from the industry. There are loads of recurring topics on game design here that address aspects of the final product, rather than demanding for the product to stop being made.
3) Better character design includes better sexy character design too.
4) Better approach to romance and relationships means better writing and ultimately better intimacy/sex in games.
5) criticism of characters in combat lingerie isn't kink shaming. Loads of people have kinks. You like what you like, that's cool. However, understand the effect on society in general if mainstream games often depict women as sex objects with regard to the fact that its a primary media source for a shitload of women and girls who buy a shitload of games and make up half the audience.
 
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Yam's

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,029
For what it's worth, it's thanks to threads like this one that for the last years I've been thinking about the issues raised in these threads and made aware of things I wasn't thinking about in my games (and other medias too).

I normally don't engage in these threads, as in my opinion there's nothing to debate, but I read everything women have to say about this subject and appreciate they're sharing it.

I can understand how this must feel frustrating and meaningless with some of the answers you get in these threads, but I hope most of you will continue sharing your thoughts as they've changed my views over the year and I'm certainly not the only one.
 

PunkMilitia

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
278
I want to get out of the way that I am a sex positive feminist, and when I criticise sexualized female character designs, it has nothing to do with prudishness or slut-shaming or anything like that; instead, it comes from a place of frustration, because how the hell are we supposed to combat sexism in gaming when one of the biggest examples of that--that serves to both reinforce and reflect sexist viewpoints--is consistently let slide?

Because yes, if you have a game where all the dudes are covered from head to toe and your one female character is running around in a trash bag bikini and looking thoroughly uncomfortable about it, it's sexist. It reinforces the (already widespread, particularly in gaming "culture") idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure. It's not "puritanism", it's wanting to be treated like goddamn people.

There's nothing wrong with a female character wearing a bikini if, for example, a game is set on a beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. Complaining about that would be prudishness, and a little ridiculous. But it often seems like developers are so desperate for boobs that they're willing to break the audience's suspension of disbelief and hurt their own narrative in the process, and it's like, wow, do you really want to objectify women that badly? Can't you just leave us alone for five fucking minutes? Because Quiet breathing through her skin is not a compelling reason for a trash bag bikini, within the narrative or outside of it. If you really, really want to stick with the skin-breathing, fuck, just dress her in a sports bra and running shorts. At least that would be practical, and not grossly out of character. Cindy is a mechanic in the fucking desert who walks around in hot pants and a bikini top, because she has grease-repelling skin that never burns, I guess. Meanwhile, Noctis and co. roll up in jeans and t-shirts. It's like, okay, we get it, this game is for dudes and the women are there for eye candy. Can we stop now, please? We're just so fucking tired of this. And then we get steamrolled by dudes who barge in and try to insist that this shit is actually empowering and we're just prudes, and, like, we get it, you don't want anyone to take your boobs away, stop pretending it's some righteous cause, thanks.

(I've talked about objectified female characters in gaming before, and I have received some amazing responses: I'm jealous because I'm a fat ugly loser; I have no idea what I'm talking about and Quiet wearing a trash bag bikini is actually empowering and feminist; "ohmygod why are you trying to take away my BEWBS"... you get the idea. Still, hopefully this time will go a little better.)
Hello.

First of all, I'd like to point out it would be awesome if you broke down your post with more paragraphs, I almost didn't bother reading it.

Secondly - yes. I agree 100%. Even though I am a white heterosexual male(Married and bought up children for years on my own when she was ill, mind), I also dislike seeing woman portrayed like this all the time.

When you're in an immersive world against serious monsters, like the FFXV scenario - it breaks immersion when someone just has a bra and pants on. I suppose it wasn't so bad in FFX, sure you had 1 scantly dressed girl(Riku), but at least there was a decently dressed female to kinda counter it(Pain).

Sure, I do get it. When I was a teenager I just couldn't stop thinking about lust and nudity. It's to do with hormones. I'd hope feminist would understand male and female hormones are different. Back then I loved seeing woman like this.

Now, I am older and less hormonal, I look back and think WTF. Clearly these woman are being added for the teenage boys, or perhaps older single men who haven't experienced the real world and love. Either way, I agree with you. Didn't expect to say that to a feminist.

Edit: https://www.resetera.com/posts/726697/
 
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