Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Twig said:

"Just don't buy the bad stuff!"

I hope you realize how short-sighted that is.

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Well, we in the west don't pay for anime, we pay for stream. And in that case, this is my stance in that I watch what interest me and I don't watch the rest that don't interest or in that case, I completely dislike. In the same way that I dislike incest in any media and if there's something in there, my interest goes really down.

Nemesis162 said:

Well, we in the west don't pay for anime, we pay for stream. And in that case, this is my stance in that I watch what interest me and I don't watch the rest that don't interest or in that case, I completely dislike. In the same way that I dislike incest in any media and if there's something in there, my interest goes really down.

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It's difficult to find shows that are up my alley narrative-wise but not full of problematic stuff. Like, Made in Abyss is the exact kind of story/world that interests me but it's also adapted from a super gross source.

Really, this would all be a moot point if the west hadn't given up on genre that wasn't Tolkien or GoT. At least good things are still happening in print...

What. By paying for streaming services, you are paying for anime. Depending on the service you use, it might even be dished out based on the things you watch.

But that's not even the point.

Telling someone who doesn't like problematic shit to just not buy it or watch it or whatever the fuck doesn't mean that shit's gonna stop existing. and it's not about not consuming it on a personal level. If it's problematic, but still popular, it seeps into everything.

see: fighting games, which are overflowing with highly and pointlessly sexualized characters. Mostly women. It's so fucking rare to find a game that doesn't have it. The only example I can think of is Dragon Ball fighting games. but even FighterZ introduced a game-original character for the horny boys to consume.

this pedo bullshit in this show is just the most egregious example on people's minds right now. That junk finds its way into shows where it's totally out of place all the time.

Made in Abyss is a perfect example. The webcomic author made this superb setting and story (ymmv, but i liked it for the most part) and then inserts creeeeeeepy shit. Fuck that and fuck him and fuck the people who support him.

"Just don't watch it."

lol

Brian Damage said:

What's worse is "It's just American puritanism, Europeans don't care about this sort of thing".

Like, yeah we fucking do, don't drag us into your weird stuff. Too many people equate 'being sexually progressive' with 'being okay with sexual objectification'.

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It's really jarring and insulting yeah. Not only I get mistaken for an american but for a sex hating person too? I'm a sex positive guy, I just don't subscribe to the exploitation of female sexuality.

Nemesis162 said:

It's definitely part of the japanese culture and normalized as such. Idols and teenage/children Gravure idols just shows it. Pick an magazine in Japan for this and you'll see children with swimsuits and bikinis in such poses.

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Is it /important/ to their culture and identity though? That's the thing.

In our continent, reggaeton is a huge phenomenon that just won't go away, it's everywhere and a lot of countries have simply embraced it by now, but that doesn't change the fact that it's filled with overly sexual content that kids shouldn't be exposed to, heavy objectification and even sexual violence and the like, it's honestly plain gross. So it's definitely extremely influential to us (though maybe I'm being presumptuous, I dunno how big it's in Brazil), but that doesn't mean we have to embrace it yourself let alone consider it worth defending from criticism.

I handful of japanese users have spoken already about their country's problem with sexual depictions of women in their media and they pretty much agree it's a bad thing.

saintpride said:

It's difficult to find shows that are up my alley narrative-wise but not full of problematic stuff. Like, Made in Abyss is the exact kind of story/world that interests me but it's also adapted from a super gross source.

Really, this would all be a moot point if the west hadn't given up on genre that wasn't Tolkien or GoT. At least good things are still happening in print...

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I think that good things appears in every season, even the ones without such problems appears. In the end it's about search, see if the synopsis and key visual interest and give it a try for some episodes and if it's not in your liking, dropping it. It's what I've been doing since 2016 when I began to watch anime in seasons and it's been good for me so I think that this can be helpful.

Or just wait for the end of the season and ask about it for other people if such anime has those problems or not. Then you don't experience it and you can watch without any problem. If you don't know about it, I recommend the animefeminist site which while I'm not always in agreement with what is said, it's a great site about anime and in the seasons they give their impressions on the first episodes and all.

I suppose a real solution would be to find and support civil rights groups/organizations in Japan that would help change problematic elements that persist in Japanese cultures.

Twig said:

What. By paying for streaming services, you are paying for anime. Depending on the service you use, it might even be dished out based on the things you watch.

But that's not even the point.

Telling someone who doesn't like problematic shit to just not buy it or watch it or whatever the fuck doesn't mean that shit's gonna stop existing. and it's not about not consuming it on a personal level. If it's problematic, but still popular, it seeps into everything.

see: fighting games, which are overflowing with highly and pointlessly sexualized characters. Mostly women. It's so fucking rare to find a game that doesn't have it. The only example I can think of is Dragon Ball fighting games. but even FighterZ introduced a game-original character for the horny boys to consume.

this pedo bullshit in this show is just the most egregious example on people's minds right now. That junk finds its way into shows where it's totally out of place all the time.

Made in Abyss is a perfect example. The webcomic author made this superb setting and story (ymmv, but i liked it for the most part) and then inserts creeeeeeepy shit. Fuck that and fuck him and fuck the people who support him.

"Just don't watch it."

lol

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About the first point, not really. It will depend if the focus on the committee is streaming or not.
But about the rest, what's the other alternative? What do you think that can be made? Talking about it isn't going to stop it to coming and I'm not even using that point, you can talk after all.

What I meant with don't watch is just in a personal level where if a thing bother you, you don't touch on it to not suffer. I said it because that's what I do in every media, it's not to shut down anything if that's what you thought.

Opa-Pa said:

It's really jarring and insulting yeah. Not only I get mistaken for an american but for a sex hating person too? I'm a sex positive guy, I just don't subscribe to the exploitation of female sexuality.

Is it /important/ to their culture and identity though? That's the thing.

In our continent, reggaeton is a huge phenomenon that just won't go away, it's everywhere and a lot of countries have simply embraced it by now, but that doesn't change the fact that it's filled with overly sexual content that kids shouldn't be exposed to, heavy objectification and even sexual violence and the like, it's honestly plain gross. So it's definitely extremely influential to us (though maybe I'm being presumptuous, I dunno how big it's in Brazil), but that doesn't mean we have to embrace it yourself let alone consider it worth defending from criticism.

I handful of japanese users have spoken already about their country's problem with sexual depictions of women in their media and they pretty much agree it's a bad thing.

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No, it's definitely not important at least in positive way. And by culture I mean that it's something normalized and not something that would be attractive to tourists like other things part of their culture. Sorry if it was confusing.

Twig said:

"Just don't buy the bad stuff!"

I hope you realize how short-sighted that is.

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Yeah. The problem is that there's a hardcore, eh, core that will keep supporting this shit - and they happen to be the sort of people who have money to throw at it. Everyone else can abandon ship, but it won't go away because those whales will still be supporting it. That they'll have effectively devoured the medium like some kind of cancerous parasite isn't going to phase them. If anything, they'll celebrate it: the filthy casuals are gone! The hipsters and their Ghibli! All gone! We have our safe space!!

Xaszatm said:

It also doesn't help the cannibalizing nature anime (and video games) currently have with later anime being inspired by earlier ones, creating a perpetual cycle that flanderizes itself with every cycle. Both lack inspiration from outside itself, and even that does happen, it's usually still baked within the old anime tropes.

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Believe me, trying to get people to engage with anything even a short step outside of their comfort zone is a Herculean task, especially, it seems, in this day and age. Everyone just wants to wrap themselves in comfortable familiarity.

Dary said:

Yeah. The problem is that there's a hardcore, eh, core that will keep supporting this shit - and they happen to be the sort of people who have money to throw at it. Everyone else can abandon ship, but it won't go away because those whales will still be supporting it. That they'll have effectively devoured the medium like some kind of cancerous parasite isn't going to phase them. If anything, they'll celebrate it: the filthy casuals are gone! The hipsters and their Ghibli! All gone! We have our safe space!!

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Well, to be fair the otaku in japan already did it in a way. They created the term Wotaku because otaku became more accepted in japan and with that, more people assumed themselves as one with other people also identifying themselves as one just like what happened with nerd. Because of this, those more hardcore otaku created Wotaku as a term to differentiate themselves for the others since the "filthy normies" picked their naming.

IceFireTerry said:

the real question is WTH is wrong with her eye

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A first glance, I thought it was a button, like she was doing a half Other-Mother.

Nemesis162 said:

That's easy. Don't pick those to watch. I don't like works like that so I don't pick it in any media.

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That doesn't solve my problem of anime I want to watch constantly shrinking because they things I don't like are slowly taking over every anime percentile by percentile.

Dary said:

Yeah. The problem is that there's a hardcore, eh, core that will keep supporting this shit - and they happen to be the sort of people who have money to throw at it. Everyone else can abandon ship, but it won't go away because those whales will still be supporting it. That they'll have effectively devoured the medium like some kind of cancerous parasite isn't going to phase them. If anything, they'll celebrate it: the filthy casuals are gone! The hipsters and their Ghibli! All gone! We have our safe space!!


Believe me, trying to get people to engage with anything even a short step outside of their comfort zone is a Herculean task, especially, it seems, in this day and age. Everyone just wants to wrap themselves in comfortable familiarity.

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It's a shame because the best animes and video games are the ones that don't come from cannibalizing itself.

Forget about anime. Older Manga's is where it's at. I like to read Berserk, Blame!, Akira, Vagabond, Fist of the North star and Monster. They're all fantastic and don't have any of the bullshit that we see nowadays.

Nemesis162 said:

Well, to be fair the otaku in japan already did it in a way. They created the term Wotaku because otaku became more accepted in japan and with that, more people assumed themselves as one with other people also identifying themselves as one just like what happened with nerd. Because of this, those more hardcore otaku created Wotaku as a term to differentiate themselves for the others since the "filthy normies" picked their naming.

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Wow. Not surprising - it happens all the time - but still: wow.

Of course, an even smaller core will emerge from that one eventually. It's like the Circles of Hell, each one smaller than the last, burrowing down deep into the earth.

Part of this is a culture of repression, but a big part of that is a result of the media creating and consuming products that perpetuates and normalizes it. A vicious cycle that is a relic of a bygone era.

Dary said:

Wow. Not surprising - it happens all the time - but still: wow.

Of course, an even smaller core will emerge from that one eventually. It's like the Circles of Hell, each one smaller than the last, burrowing down deep into the earth.

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It's not surpising, but it is disgusting. A race to the bottom. Which I guess is now a meta-race to the bottom?

It's particularly ironic, given that naming yourself or your group normalizes you regardless of your intent (e.g., goth kids, prep kids, theater kids, etc.)

If they really wanted to be seen as "not normal", they'd intentionally resist labels, not simply create a new one.

CrazyHal said:

Forget about anime. Older Manga's is where it's at. I like to read Berserk, Blame!, Akira, Vagabond, Fist of the North star and Monster. They're all fantastic and don't have any of the bullshit that we see nowadays.

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Ehhhhh, that's not true. Such things existed for decades. Cutie Honey, Ranma 1/2, Urusei Yatsura, Harenchi Gakuen (the manga of Nagai that invented ecchi and popularized romcom), I"s and plenty of ecchi manga or romcom were there, be it in any demography. Just like many manga without these components had some scenes here or another or the same problem that we have today in treatment of women. And that without count manga like Dr Slump with racism, Dragon Ball with plenty of scenes sexualizing women (and Roshi), Devilman Lady with rape in every chapter for it's first 30 chapters and so many things that I saw while reading manga of the 70s, 80s and 90s. It's really not so different than what we have today.

And I'm surprised to see you using Hokuto no Ken as an example considering how women are treated in the manga.

It's funny, actually, thinking about Dragon Ball, because holy balls the series is chock-full of problematic stuff right at the outset. It's only recently, after becoming a huge worldwide franchise, that it's become somewhat "clean" of that sort of thing. Still a massive sausage fest and all, but at least they put in a bit of effort with the magical girl squad and the female saiyans. Only a bit, though. (Still hoping Pan becomes the new MC for whatever comes after the movie.)

But then you look at stuff like My Hero Academia and realize that, dammit man, even within a huge world-spanning franchise you're still gonna get crap like "cougar" jokes and shots of the female cast naked (while the guys are all wearing towels, at that) and that stupid pervert character drawing way too much attention and screen time. Can never win.

CrazyHal said:

Fist of the North star

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Read it again.

I love it but FotNS is really problematic.

I was thinking and Japan government doesn't really want to do something about it because anime, manga, games, dorama and japanese entertainment culture in general attracts a huge bunch of tourists to japan and therefore, makes money. Now it makes more sense, I never thought about it before. lol

spider said:

lolicon and moe ruins everything :(

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I don't really see a problem in moe. It's just a artstyle after all. Even if moe for you means "Cute girls doing cute things", there's plenty of them being really good and without such problems. Last season for example Yuru Camp was something that you could call moe and it's even based on a manga from Houbunsha's Manga Time Kirara which is the house of a bunch of those type of slice of life series called CGDCT.

Nemesis162 said:

Ehhhhh, that's not true. Such things existed for decades. Cutie Honey, Ranma 1/2, Urusei Yatsura, Harenchi Gakuen (the manga of Nagai that invented ecchi and popularized romcom), I"s and plenty of ecchi manga or romcom were there, be it in any demography. Just like many manga without these components had some scenes here or another or the same problem that we have today in treatment of women. And that without count manga like Dr Slump with racism, Dragon Ball with plenty of scenes sexualizing women (and Roshi), Devilman Lady with rape in every chapter for it's first 30 chapters and so many things that I saw while reading manga of the 70s, 80s and 90s. It's really not so different than what we have today.

And I'm surprised to see you using Hokuto no Ken as an example considering how women are treated in the manga.

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I didn't mean every older Manga, just the ones that i read. As for Fist of the North star, the manga was during the 80's so you know, the world was different back then. Even so, it's not even close to be as bad as some of the stuff that we see today.

I read FoTNS recently and its gender politics are just terrible, I'd say even in the context of the 80s. It's not as in your face as fanservicey stuff, but still outrageously sexist.

Nemesis162 said:

No, it's definitely not important at least in positive way. And by culture I mean that it's something normalized and not something that would be attractive to tourists like other things part of their culture. Sorry if it was confusing.

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It's fine! Thanks for clarifying.

esserius said:

Part of this is a culture of repression, but a big part of that is a result of the media creating and consuming products that perpetuates and normalizes it. A vicious cycle that is a relic of a bygone era.

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Yeah this is key and I wish more people that think you can just ignore problematic content would realize it.

How much discussion of Fire Emblem's female characters happened in this thread? Because it seems like there is a weird evolution of female designs over time in that series.

ShadowSwordmaster said:

How much discussion of Fire Emblem's female characters happened in this thread? Because it seems like there is a weird evolution of female designs over time in that series.

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About...half of us give or take are really hoping that FE Switch dials down on some of the worse designs from the last few games (and Heroes). There was plenty of talk earlier but with no update lately discussion for that topic has quieted down.

I guess Hidari would be the best option. Though I could see them going with the gatcha-esque multiple artists designing each of the characters this time around.

Xaszatm said:

About...half of us give or take are really hoping that FE Switch dials down on some of the worse designs from the last few games (and Heroes). There was plenty of talk earlier but with no update lately discussion for that topic has quieted down.

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Thank you for telling me this.

ShadowSwordmaster said:

How much discussion of Fire Emblem's female characters happened in this thread? Because it seems like there is a weird evolution of female designs over time in that series.

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There was a lot of that at the beginning, before Xenoblade 2 came out...

Syril said:

There was a lot of that at the beginning, before Xenoblade 2 came out...

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Before the Dark Times. Before the EmPyra.

Dary said:

Before the Dark Times. Before the EmPyra.

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But then, everything changed when the Rare Blades attacked.

Just realised when the marketing ramps up for Fire Emblem Switch it's gonna be like XC2 pre-release threads (or I guess all XC2 threads) all over again.

Dmax3901 said:

Just realised when the marketing ramps up for Fire Emblem Switch it's gonna be like XC2 pre-release threads (or I guess all XC2 threads) all over again.

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Can't wait for the people to fall on their sword screaming how their big titty waifus are so much more important than anything else, then screaming that if you liked the game, or even bought it, then you must actually like said big titty waifus...

Nemesis162 said:

About the first point, not really. It will depend if the focus on the committee is streaming or not.
But about the rest, what's the other alternative? What do you think that can be made? Talking about it isn't going to stop it to coming and I'm not even using that point, you can talk after all.

What I meant with don't watch is just in a personal level where if a thing bother you, you don't touch on it to not suffer. I said it because that's what I do in every media, it's not to shut down anything if that's what you thought.

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Because you can't fucking avoid it when so many series that look like they'd be completely innocent end up with utter fucking BULLSHIT. It fucking comes out of nowhere. Again: See goddamn Made in Abyss. (EDIT: lol this came off real angry - i'm mad at made in abyss, i guess, but not at you, even if i'm disagreeing very strongly :P)

And if talking about shit didn't work, nothing would ever change. But we see change all over, because we don't shut up and give in. Japan will listen when the voices get loud enough. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've seen examples of Japanese developers listening. It's rare, but it happens. And it'll keep happening. Anime's gonna be harder, but just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not worth it.

This is why I'm saying that the attitude of "if you don't like it don't do it" is short-sighted and naive. You're utterly missing the point if you think that's the beginning and end of it.

Also you're wrong about how the streaming stuff works. The license is paid for. It doesn't come free. Things don't get licensed if nobody's going to watch them. So that money effectively comes from our continued support. Or... someone's continued support. And some services actually do what I said - pay to the licencors based on what you watch. Crunchyroll is one of them. (Or used to be. The situation may have changed when they got bought out.)

Dary said:

Yeah. The problem is that there's a hardcore, eh, core that will keep supporting this shit - and they happen to be the sort of people who have money to throw at it. Everyone else can abandon ship, but it won't go away because those whales will still be supporting it. That they'll have effectively devoured the medium like some kind of cancerous parasite isn't going to phase them. If anything, they'll celebrate it: the filthy casuals are gone! The hipsters and their Ghibli! All gone! We have our safe space!!

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Pretty much lol

Hell, let's take a look at more favorite JRPG Franchises and see if I feel like things are getting better:

Fire Emblem: Nope
Shining Series: Nope
Disgaea: Nope
Final Fantasy Tactics: Last game was HOW long ago?

Notice a pattern here? "Just play the games that don't have them" isn't an excuse when EVERY game practically has them.

Gets even worse when you look at MMORPGs.

Blade & Soul? lol. PSO2? LOL. Black Desert? I can't even laugh at this point. It's just too much. Shit, some of the costumes in these games I can't even post on Era because they're so ridiculously risque. (Especially any costumes that expose the "smart inner wear" in PSO2...)

Between gender locked classes (Black Desert), ridiculously sexist dimorphic costume design (all of the above), and hilariously sexist animation choices (again, all of the above), there's a lot you have to put up with if you want to play Asian MMOs and play a female character that doesn't look like she exists purely to pander to horny dudes. Hell, I'm gettin' kinda scared that even by the time we have some semblance of full-immersion VR (say, fifteen years from now) we'll still be putting up with this shit despite the fact that, by all rights, we should be seeing devs treat women with the same sort of respect they treat the men. Instead, at most, I can only hope that they have at least one or two costumes I don't roll my eyes at and ignore all the rest. It's... seriously pathetic.

I need to go play more Dark Souls now to scrub these bad memories from my mind.

Dmax3901 said:

Just realised when the marketing ramps up for Fire Emblem Switch it's gonna be like XC2 pre-release threads (or I guess all XC2 threads) all over again.

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What do you mean, it is actually totally super empowering to have a harem of girls whose chests fall out of their clothes! (Gosh, I hated people arguing that elsewhere on the net)

I couldn't get through Xeno 2 due to that. When the only character I liked constantly has other characters tell her she dresses "like a guy", and almost every other female characer is in lingerie, just no.

It would be nice if every single thread about the new Fire Emblem isn't hijacked, like XC2 threads were.

What happened with XC2 threads it's something that has been already discussed here, but i wouldn't mind to go back in my post history and remind why it is something to be frowned upon

They won't have to be, it'll only happen if it has garbage designs... So it's 100% Intelligent Systems' responsibility.

Xaszatm said:

Can't wait for the people to fall on their sword screaming how their big titty waifus are so much more important than anything else, then screaming that if you liked the game, or even bought it, then you must actually like said big titty waifus...

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I've always been really amused by how often people yell about how waifus saved Fire Emblem.
If the only possible explanation for people giving Awakening a chance are the waifus, then maybe Fire Emblem should have died.

I think it's important to keep in mind, that to a degree the anime that we consume anime in a "distorted" way compared to Japan.

The argument that it's part of their culture is flawed. Most of these shows that are considered the biggest offenders are late night shows. Stuff that airs at 1am and beyond, which drastically limits any potential cultural impact they may have. The schedule used for series kind of "regulates" what becomes popular and what doesn't. If you go to Japan, 99.98% of the population wouldn't know what that shitty show is.

Streaming sites just lump everything in the same place, erasing these barriers of entry and putting those series in the same ground as Naruto or Dragon Ball Super.

Plus, the licenses for this kind of crap must be cheap to grab, so getting those shows gives the impression that their catalogue is bigger than it actually is. And subbing a show honestly isn't that expensive.

The problem isn't only that these shows exist, which itself is a big problem, but the fact that their existence have been normalized to a lot of people in the West due to the factors I mentioned above.

Opa-Pa said:

They won't have to be, it'll only happen if it has garbage designs... So it's 100% Intelligent Systems' responsibility.

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Even if the designs are garbage, this is something to avoid, for the sake of having a nice discussion

I'll quote myself

Amiibola said:

I already explained the situation, every single discussion was, effectively, hijacked, users that didn't take part on XBC2 suddendly became very active, and trying to talk about anything else was impossible. Suddendly, what was about the 30 or 40% became the 99% with no breathing room. Want to talk about the gameplay? tough luck, soundtrack? Nuh-huh, tech details? Go elsewere.

All of this while having the same discussion in this thread anyway.

I remember it too vividly, and it really left me a bad impression.

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As someone who loved XC and XCX, and wanted to talk about and get information of XC2 here in era, it was a goddamn nightmare.

Tough luck. I agree with the mods' take on the situation - nobody stopped you from talking about any of those things. I personally thought the incessant whining about people complaining about the designs was infinitely more annoying.

MochaKoffee said:

I've always been really amused by how often people yell about how waifus saved Fire Emblem.
If the only possible explanation for people giving Awakening a chance are the waifus, then maybe Fire Emblem should have died.

Spoiler

Awakening's success clearly had nothing to do with being a much more accessible game with a big marketing push on a console begging for more games like it. Nope. All waifus.

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It's the same nonsense with XBC2, CLEARLY it's the waifus that was why XBC2 is the most successful of the three XBC games. Definitely not because the first two had troubled circumstances that made selling well a challenge while XBC2 was heavily pushed on a successful console. NOPE! It's all because people get hard-ons when they see the characters. Apparently their nether regions do most of the thinking...

It's as if, in most Japanese games, a female character dared to wear pants she'd be considered a boy or a tomboy, like "but you're a girl, you need to show your thighs!!"
I hate it.

About Fist of the North Star, I read it some years ago and even if I enjoyed it, it's still misogynistic.
What made me sad was how Mamiya was treated. She always tried to fight and defend herself, but she always ended up being a damsel in distress saved by the male protagonists. Then Rei basically telling her "you're a woman so don't do those things" after he tore up her clothes to prove to her she's a woman, excuse me but what the hell lmao. And there was also the fact that she "stopped being a woman" to become a warrior, and later in the manga: "To respect Rei's last wishes, she gives up her life as a warrior and embraces her womanhood." (from the Hokuto wikia). What's that supposed to mean...?
Sometimes I hear people say "but it's a post-apocalyptic world, characters don't care about gender equality, there is no morality". I mean, I'd be okay if the villains were depicted as misogynistic assholes but in FotNS even the good guys are sexist lmao (like Rei, which is unfortunate because I like the character).
So yeah, and there are more examples of misogyny. Despite that shit, I enjoyed FotNS, but jeez, there were moments when I felt very annoyed.

MochaKoffee said:

I've always been really amused by how often people yell about how waifus saved Fire Emblem.
If the only possible explanation for people giving Awakening a chance are the waifus, then maybe Fire Emblem should have died.

Spoiler

Awakening's success clearly had nothing to do with being a much more accessible game with a big marketing push on a console begging for more games like it. Nope. All waifus.

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The waifu/husbando thing is reductive, but I think there's some truth to it. In the sense that Fire Emblem is a series that's about getting attached to your units/characters and Awakening placing more emphasis on them with the Marriage system plus with the Avatar made it more appealing. Like Persona is more character focused than mainline SMT and it's more appealing for it. People talk about waifus and husbandos because they get attached to the characters but jokingly express it in this memey(?) way that makes discussion incredibly off putting.

Welp, CONGRATULATIONS EVERYONE! We made it to 150 pages!

Oddish1 said:

The waifu/husbando thing is reductive, but I think there's some truth to it. In the sense that Fire Emblem is a series that's about getting attached to your units/characters and Awakening placing more emphasis on them with the Marriage system plus with the Avatar made it more appealing. Like Persona is more character focused than mainline SMT and it's more appealing for it. People talk about waifus and husbandos because they get attached to the characters but jokingly express it in this memey(?) way that makes discussion incredibly off putting.

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Relationships helping sure, but there is this weird subset of people determined to say that it was waifus that was the single most important thing and not like, it being the most newcomer friendly FE out there.

Xaszatm said:

Welp, CONGRATULATIONS EVERYONE! We made it to 150 pages!

Relationships helping sure, but there is this weird subset of people determined to say that it was waifus that was the single most important thing and not like, it being the most newcomer friendly FE out there.

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Oh sure, I think I know what you mean. They're either being ignorant or overly defensive of the newer games. I would say that there probably isn't one singular reason why Awakening did as well as it did. It's a combination of things, some more talked about than others. Like no one talks about 8-4's excellent localization for it.

CrazyHal said:

Forget about anime. Older Manga's is where it's at. I like to read Berserk, Blame!, Akira, Vagabond, Fist of the North star and Monster. They're all fantastic and don't have any of the bullshit that we see nowadays.

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Berserk have a ton of loli/moe character lately.

MochaKoffee said:

I've always been really amused by how often people yell about how waifus saved Fire Emblem.
If the only possible explanation for people giving Awakening a chance are the waifus, then maybe Fire Emblem should have died.

Spoiler

Awakening's success clearly had nothing to do with being a much more accessible game with a big marketing push on a console begging for more games like it. Nope. All waifus.

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I still think that all the waifu thing on Awakening is all fans fault and wasn't planned at all.

War3333 said:

I still think that all the waifu thing on Awakening is all fans fault and wasn't planned at all.

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It was definetly planned in the way that people like shipping characters they care about. And raising their kids.

The support conversations and character achetypes are written in a way to serve that, especially the male-female ones. (with some exeptions).

lastly, the self-insert is much more involved than in previous titles where you were mostly a non-descript "tactitian" if the game adressed you at all.

The game itself being more accessible is also a big factor obviously, but i genuinley think that the expanded relationship aspects (as part of expanded RPG aspects in general) helped it's appeal among new (and some old) players.

The series could easily keep doing that without the worst aspects of "waifu/husbando" crap. If it was competently done it could be fun to engage with instead of being actively annoying.