What men think women want:
What women actually want:
Man, that picture's just doesn't do a good job of showing the teeth. Looks too crooked here. :P
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- Status
Man, that picture's just doesn't do a good job of showing the teeth. Looks too crooked here. :P
Jeez, dude wasn't arguing in good faith.
Bonjour o/
Bonjour o/
Have you seen Teen Wolf? I saw and enjoyed, why would I say the opposite, the first few seasons. It's obvious that I'm not the target audience of it, but whatever. But I find quite funny how Dylan O'Brian is considered to be the "average at best and geeky" friend of the main character in the show of all things. When an 8 is a 5, we poor peasants should go in a corner and cry.
I think you meant this.
You talked about Bayo before, and I've never really known what to think about her. Both the power fantasy and sexualization sides have brought good points and I honestly don't know where I stand.
I mean strict gender roles are shitty, but that just doesn't seem like the point of this thread. If there was a general feminism thread it would make sense to talk about toxic masculinity, and the expectations laid upon men in there.
That last page felt more like a what-about-this, than a general interest in discussing how Kratos and other potentially idealized masculine men could be harmful to young boys.
That last page felt more like a what-about-this, than a general interest in discussing how Kratos and other potentially idealized masculine men could be harmful to young boys.
I feel like Bayonetta is not a character designed to be sexy. She's sexualized, yes, but not the kind of sexualization male gamers usually like, it goes more like with the character, while usually it's the other way around.
At least that's how i see her.
she fab ^
also here's some black panther gorgeous arts that nail what women wants in women representations, and not just women, seeing that black panther is one of the most successful superhero movies E V E R
:D
Source: https://twitter.com/heyjenbartel
Source: https://twitter.com/cyanwhisky/status/965972146433347589
Source: https://twitter.com/_kotsukotsu_/status/965786117797658625
Source: https://twitter.com/artsyebby/status/967064004551172098
There's many, many, many, MANY more. Really, women can be represented as complex human beings, some prettier than other women, some more loyal, some more gentler, others more analytical, etc. etc. etc. No one is saying women characters should be ugly. No one is trying to take your fanservice from you, but WHY NOT PROVIDE MORE OPTIONS ON TOP OF WHAT'S CURRENTLY BEING OFFERED.
Just like other human beings of the other gender, women just want room to breathe and to be able to BE without also being mandated to ALSO be eye-candy all the time we are portrayed in fictional contents.
also here's some black panther gorgeous arts that nail what women wants in women representations, and not just women, seeing that black panther is one of the most successful superhero movies E V E R
:D
Source: https://twitter.com/heyjenbartel
Source: https://twitter.com/cyanwhisky/status/965972146433347589
Source: https://twitter.com/_kotsukotsu_/status/965786117797658625
Source: https://twitter.com/artsyebby/status/967064004551172098
There's many, many, many, MANY more. Really, women can be represented as complex human beings, some prettier than other women, some more loyal, some more gentler, others more analytical, etc. etc. etc. No one is saying women characters should be ugly. No one is trying to take your fanservice from you, but WHY NOT PROVIDE MORE OPTIONS ON TOP OF WHAT'S CURRENTLY BEING OFFERED.
Just like other human beings of the other gender, women just want room to breathe and to be able to BE without also being mandated to ALSO be eye-candy all the time we are portrayed in fictional contents.
The thing about roles is that there's a point where they become subconscious. They're so natural that posing men like women often are, "would make zero sense".
To the point though, that poses themselves are structured sexually and visualized as masculine or feminine is also itself a culture of dominance and the dominated. Personally I find it limiting that poses are structured like this. There's nothing unreasonable about posing a character any given way except that we have created a culture that ostracizes anything that isn't "normal" (though admittedly, that's a very human condition - even if it's unhealthy in a society that is no longer predicated on survival alone).
To the point though, that poses themselves are structured sexually and visualized as masculine or feminine is also itself a culture of dominance and the dominated. Personally I find it limiting that poses are structured like this. There's nothing unreasonable about posing a character any given way except that we have created a culture that ostracizes anything that isn't "normal" (though admittedly, that's a very human condition - even if it's unhealthy in a society that is no longer predicated on survival alone).
Also as a avid watcher of Worth It from buzzfeed you can tell that a lot of the audience is female and a lot of the attraction comes just the male bonding and friendship aspect of the show. Definitely won't have the same audience if it's just some angry machismo beefcakes going around eating food.
Especially this episode.
Especially this episode.
I remember MovieBob (as GameOverthinker? I don't remember) put it as her not being designed to be sexually appealing but her being designed to be sexually intimidating.
It's been my dirty secret that I love Try Guys, and it's partly because they have such great interactions and will openly admit that their other group members are attractive without "no homo!" BS.
Yes, that's another way to define her, unfortunately that's toned down on Bayonetta 2. In the first entry, Luka was used to portray Bayo like that.
Always wonder what people do when they've been banned because of this thread. Is there a secret, membership-only club out there filled with ranty young men sharing stories about their cousin's girlfriend who totally doesn't think gaming has a sexism problem, while Zangief cosplayers poledance in the background as hardcore proof that men are just as oversexualised as women?
That's when critical thinking should come across. The problem is that a lot of people outright refuse to do that and would rather enter in denial and become defensive than actually think.
Supernatural has a lot of people shipping the main cast, and even the two main characters, who are brothers (lol), and I think most of it comes from the more emotional moments in the series.
At a point the show runners became self aware of it and do all sort of (sometimes hilarious) stuff to bait those shippers.
I don't know where the series went after Season 9,though.
I'd say sexually intimidating is a good way to describe her attitude, yeah.
I pictured this in my mind and spilled my coffee, fuck xD
My bet is they go elsewhere to vent their frustration and wait patiently to come back and try again
I wonder if it is really worth it to die in that hill
I mean, c'mon, having beliefs it's fine, as it is trying to discuss them, but when even non-regulars on the thread are telling you that you're shitting the bed, just stop and get out, get some fresh air or something.
Also nowadays i'm playing the first God of War and getting pretty grossed out by. The oracle of Athens made me pause the game when my father stepped in my room to ask me something.
I know the guy has been banned, but I would still like to reply to his example of Kratos. This example has been used by many guys before, I think it would be good to explain his points:
-Kratos sleeping with women being sexy.
-The way he looks, women find attractive.
When I saw Kratos sleeping with two women, I did not think it was sexy. I thought it was disgusting. It felt like typical guy thing where they brag about how many women they sleep with and how many want them. What I find sexy is when Kratos builds a meaningful relationship with one woman and that they get to have sex because it's part of being in a relationship/part of the story, not because it's a reward or power-up!
Why would Kratos be sexy for me? His face looks angry all the time, he looks violent, he looks pale, and his body looks like he is ready to fight. Do you know what's funny? I find the newest Kratos to be more attractive with his more calm appearance, how he takes care of his son etc. I don't know if they are attempting to make Kratos more appealing for women but I feel he is definitely a bit more appealing for me.
Now, that doesn't mean there aren't women who find old Kratos appealing. There is a fetish for everything. But old Kratos is in no way intended for women. Him showing skin is only part of the package. I can't enjoy that part if the rest is so off putting. There are so many things I would change about Kratos to the point that he wouldn't be the same character anymore. I'm sure there are many women who feel the same even if there still are exceptions.
I hope that you (guys) understand a little better why Kratos cannot be used as an example. If you still have questions or are uncertain about things, then ask some more. We would like to explain to you in good faith.
-Kratos sleeping with women being sexy.
-The way he looks, women find attractive.
When I saw Kratos sleeping with two women, I did not think it was sexy. I thought it was disgusting. It felt like typical guy thing where they brag about how many women they sleep with and how many want them. What I find sexy is when Kratos builds a meaningful relationship with one woman and that they get to have sex because it's part of being in a relationship/part of the story, not because it's a reward or power-up!
Why would Kratos be sexy for me? His face looks angry all the time, he looks violent, he looks pale, and his body looks like he is ready to fight. Do you know what's funny? I find the newest Kratos to be more attractive with his more calm appearance, how he takes care of his son etc. I don't know if they are attempting to make Kratos more appealing for women but I feel he is definitely a bit more appealing for me.
Now, that doesn't mean there aren't women who find old Kratos appealing. There is a fetish for everything. But old Kratos is in no way intended for women. Him showing skin is only part of the package. I can't enjoy that part if the rest is so off putting. There are so many things I would change about Kratos to the point that he wouldn't be the same character anymore. I'm sure there are many women who feel the same even if there still are exceptions.
I hope that you (guys) understand a little better why Kratos cannot be used as an example. If you still have questions or are uncertain about things, then ask some more. We would like to explain to you in good faith.
I used to work with a co-worker who had the biggest crush on him (this was 10 years ago, but still). She even had a poster of him in her office.
That said, I don't know many women who think Kratos is attractive, and if they do, they typically lose that attraction because Kratos is such an insufferable douche anyway. :P
Shit, no. I'll take Kain over Anne Rice's shitty vampires any day (or night).What men think women want:
What women actually want:
Hell, I'll take Kain over any other fictional character. That voice.... *_*
I do think "assertive muscle heads get all the girls" is a phenomenon worth discussing. Is it a perception thing based on popularity? Is it the confidence taking precedent with looks not mattering at all? Is this just a high school mindset? Is it purely social conditioning which ends up being a feedback loop as the generations go on? But if so, doesn't it stand to reason that attraction in the east with men having more traditionally feminine qualities is similarly based on social conditioning and thus nothing innate?
I think it's an interesting discussion and I don't know if it's something we'd get a definitive answer to on a video game message board as I feel like the "popular people" would have a different answer than enthusiasts.
I think it's an interesting discussion and I don't know if it's something we'd get a definitive answer to on a video game message board as I feel like the "popular people" would have a different answer than enthusiasts.
It's arguable whether Bayonetta is a male or female power fantasy (or both, which is my opinion), but can there be any doubt that she is one? As a rule of thumb you're not going to find many character action protagonists that aren't power fantasies.
It's no coincidence that the ones who push men to "get ripped" are, more often than not, other men.
It's also no coincidence that far-right groups deliberately target and recruit insecure nerds using these toxic ideas of "manliness".
I finally got a bit further in Ys VIII (took a break from that game because Monster Hunter took all my time recently, oops), and got to the part that was mentioned earlier in this thread, with Dana and those under-dressed little girls and... goddamn, these outfits make my eyes bleed. They look so goddamn dumb and not even cool. It's not as blatantly exploitative or objectifying as some other designs we've seen (you can tell the intent behind that design was more "sexy and cool" rather than "booooooobs", but it fails at even that, so w/e), but seriously, why is the Great Maiden and the High Priestess and literally everyone else (except the, um, older women and most of the men of that same city/culture, of course!) strutting around in little more than underwear?
Meanwhile, pretty much all the male party members are dressed like you'd expect sailors, adventurers and warriors to be dressed. You know, with flat-heeled footwear, pants, and shirts. And all the female characters, even the underage ones, are dressed more like they're going to do a belly-dancing performance at the beach. Sigh. Even the female blacksmith NPC has blatant cleavage, for some reason. (???)
Apparently it's too much to ask to have female adventurers, warriors, and explorers, to be wearing... walking boots, pants, and shirts just like the guys. I mean the guys can look stylish and "cool" even within those guidelines, after all, so there's no "but that's boooring" excuse. Or so you'd think.
Meanwhile, pretty much all the male party members are dressed like you'd expect sailors, adventurers and warriors to be dressed. You know, with flat-heeled footwear, pants, and shirts. And all the female characters, even the underage ones, are dressed more like they're going to do a belly-dancing performance at the beach. Sigh. Even the female blacksmith NPC has blatant cleavage, for some reason. (???)
Apparently it's too much to ask to have female adventurers, warriors, and explorers, to be wearing... walking boots, pants, and shirts just like the guys. I mean the guys can look stylish and "cool" even within those guidelines, after all, so there's no "but that's boooring" excuse. Or so you'd think.
OP
OP
I get that, but my observation is about the women going along with it. Is it that confidence and other aspects is a byproduct of "getting ripped" and is thus the more important aspect (meaning there's widespread misinformation for an "attractive" consensus), or has society as a whole just bought into toxic masculinity which has influenced people's tastes, which creates the loop that feeds into the perception of popularity? If it's the latter, then that's entirely nurture rather than nature, which means any attempts to remedy that would put us at the cross-section of a generational fight against social conditioning.
- "Why do women love ripped guys?"
- "Er, as a rule of thumb, they don't..."
- "I get that, but why do they?"
OK then... :/
Some muscle is hot, you get too much then you get into the "God, this guy could easily crush me" territory. Which is why i find the idea that a character like Kratos is seen as being sexy to women as really weird, as he's a terrifying dude.
Dary didn't say they don't, rather that it's men that decide that. In my anecdotal experience, women go along with it. In high school, the 5 most popular guys in the school were these bald buff guys and like 80% of the girls in our class were either hanging all over them or constantly talking about them. That's why I'm wondering if it was social conditioning rather than any genuine look at tastes. The perception of popularity and the feeling of needing to fit into that mold, even if the ones outwardly showing attraction don't truly feel that way, especially in such a volatile mental time as high school. Or is it just that that's a work-required status quo, and is thus desirable?
Maybe there was other reasons they were popular? Specially as bald is not exactly known as being a trait thats particularly attractive to women. (I mean there is a niche for it, it's still more of a niche)
Really? Then my anecdotal experience is way outside the norm it seems. Couldn't go one day without hearing girls talking at lunch about how hot shaved heads were back in both middle school and high school.
lol who were these burly bald teenagers? They sound like a Russian Boy Band.
They definitely looked nothing like a stereotypical boy band. They were just buff football players.
Shaved heads can be but in general only in younger men, mainly cus I think it's cus they make them look older/mature. In high school, bulking up would also be a similar effect. You kind of have to look outside teenage girls to see in general what women are attracted to - girls at that age tend to be pushed to be more mature then they are (at least me and my friends defo did, part of the reason why I think young girls tend to be such easy victims of predators, they want to be seen as adults)
Edit: I'll note that bald is not generally viewed the same as shaved as well.
This is awesome! Thanks for sharing. While problematic issues need to be discussed, it's always cool to see someone take a more positive approach and create more of what they want to see.she fab ^
also here's some black panther gorgeous arts that nail what women wants in women representations, and not just women, seeing that black panther is one of the most successful superhero movies E V E R
:D
Source: https://twitter.com/heyjenbartel
Source: https://twitter.com/cyanwhisky/status/965972146433347589
Source: https://twitter.com/_kotsukotsu_/status/965786117797658625
Source: https://twitter.com/artsyebby/status/967064004551172098
There's many, many, many, MANY more. Really, women can be represented as complex human beings, some prettier than other women, some more loyal, some more gentler, others more analytical, etc. etc. etc. No one is saying women characters should be ugly. No one is trying to take your fanservice from you, but WHY NOT PROVIDE MORE OPTIONS ON TOP OF WHAT'S CURRENTLY BEING OFFERED.
Just like other human beings of the other gender, women just want room to breathe and to be able to BE without also being mandated to ALSO be eye-candy all the time we are portrayed in fictional contents.
You're in Canada, right? I feel like this is more a phenomenon in America than most anywhere else. Could just be a byproduct of the country being overly competitive and treating everything from politics to the industrial military complex like a team sport.
I was about to mention the ol' long haired guitar players!
It really depends on the person. The idea that all women go for beefcakes is as absurd as the idea that all men lust after big tits. As is the idea that every girl in high school wanted to shag the football captain.
It is, however, a convenient narrative.
I've been using the terms interchangeably since non-shaved bald hasn't really been an issue among anyone in any of my circles except for one guy that's since gotten hair plugs. Of course those guys back in school were the same and they shaved their heads.
I'm an American and have never really seen this phenomenon of shaved heads being considered especially attractive beyond individuals' preferences.
Do you mean short hair, like buzzcuts? Those definitely went around.
Do you mean short hair, like buzzcuts? Those definitely went around.
Yeah, I'll be honest that I am kinda confused how he somehow knew how all the girls in his high school were interested in 5 guys. maybe it's just me, but as a teenage girl we didn't go around discussing who we found hot with the guys and there tended to be more variation than 5 guys - also tended to talk more about celebrities than people who were actually in our school but that's besides the point.
Your anecdotal experience is that men decide what women are attracted to? O_o
- Status