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FIA Formula One 2018 |OT| Halo: Racing Evolved

Dan

Dan

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think in the Lewis/Max incident, they could have made it easier for both, but they're very tough racers at heart. If we were looking at, for example Alonso and Danny Ric in the same scenario, I dont think there would have been contact. Not to say they're not tough, they're just a bit more analytical.
 
Tygre

Tygre

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Oct 25, 2017
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Max mad a stupid impetuous move that didn't come off and he paid the price.

I'm not sure why that is surprising or alarming to people considering his career so far.

Anybody expecting Lewis to yield in that situation clearly hasn't been paying attention either.
 
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Aiii

Aiii

何これ
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Oct 24, 2017
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Dan said:
I think in the Lewis/Max incident, they could have made it easier for both, but they're very tough racers at heart. If we were looking at, for example Alonso and Danny Ric in the same scenario, I dont think there would have been contact. Not to say they're not tough, they're just a bit more analytical.
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Bingo.
 
softtack

softtack

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Hamilton has done the same to Rosberg time and again. Looks like he can dish it out but cannot take it when the same comes his way.
 
Moss

Moss

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Oct 27, 2017
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Some stats and facts...

Mclaren go 100 races without a win. Jenson Button scored the teams last win at the Brazil GP 2012.

HAM matched RAI's record of 27 consecutive points finishes in Bahrain. HAM aiming to go 1 better in this weekends Chinese GP.

VET's 200th GP start, marking it with a well deserved victory.

Honda's best ever finishing position in the hybrid era, the 4th place finish also means it was Toro Rosso's best result since winning the 2008 Italian GP. (Still blows my mind that a "Minardi" OK ex Minardi...won a GP.)

For more stats n stuff check here.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/04/09/2018-bahrain-grand-prix-stats-and-facts/

softtack said:
Hamilton has done the same to Rosberg time and again. Looks like he can dish it out but cannot take it when the same comes his way.
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Not really, HAM never once made contact with ROS whenever he (HAM) closed the door in his face.
 
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Fredo

Fredo

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Oct 30, 2017
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Hamilton had a signification part of his car alongside Verstappen's car (basically his whole car) and was definitely entitled to some space. Hamilton said he even tried to back out (the point where his car slumps back half a cars length) but Verstappen was still coming across.

People are confusing this situation with the classic situation of a driver behind only having part of his front wing alongside the rear wheel of the car in front. The driver in front does not need to leave a space and can take the outer line if he chooses to.
 

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Fredo said:
Hamilton had a signification part of his car alongside Verstappen's car (basically his whole car) and was definitely entitled to some space. Hamilton said he even tried to back out (the point where his car slumps back half a cars length) but Verstappen was still coming across.

People are confusing this situation with the classic situation of a driver behind only having part of his front wing alongside the rear wheel of the car in front. The driver in front does not need to leave a space and can take the outer line if he chooses to.
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Verstappen's presence is suddenly rewriting the rules for the past two decades. That isn't necessarily a bad thing per se: not long ago we had major penalties for minor racing incidents, tiny infractions, we had to regulate race lines, side-by-side action, cutting, etc.. It's not bad we're looking at a time where side-by-side, a bit of bumping and pushing around is fine, but we can not suddenly forgot the rules that have been created, the past penalties, the driving standards of most of the drivers out there. Allowing everything Verstappen is doing will change Formula 1, for better and for worse at the same time, and it's interesting how everyone looks at contacts differently when Max is involved. It was a needlessly aggressive manouver at what, lap 2? He already had the pass basically, Hamilton backed off slightly, but Max had to go on and push him off the track anyway. Lewis didn't run off the track but instead stayed on the minimal space he had left. Verstappen's car broke as a result. But the problem is, he doesn't get a reprimand, the press defends him, fans vote for his actions half the races, even when he crashes out. Everyone wants him to do these manouvers and there is very little incentive not doing them apparently, since usually he's the one benefitting and the other driver retiring. This time it went south, but FIA is still sleeping on the issue. Maybe they'll act when someone breaks a leg or worse as Verstappen cannon dives into his car.
 
Moss

Moss

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Oct 27, 2017
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I feel that most of the criticism leveled at VER, since his time in F1, has been overblown. Yes, the chopping and change of direction in the braking zones was too much, and the rules have been clarified and amended to ban such moves.

I find him to be exciting to watch, he just needs to reign it in a little and clean up his behaviour. He tries too hard at times, 2017 Hungarian GP being the prime example. Poor start, tries too hard to regain lost ground, takes out his team mate from the race, as a result of his actions.

Hungary 2017 highlights.
 

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Moss said:
I feel that most of the criticism leveled at VER, since his time in F1, has been overblown. Yes, the chopping and change of direction in the braking zones was too much, and the rules have been clarified and amended to ban such moves.

I find him to be exciting to watch, he just needs to reign it in a little and clean up his behaviour. He tries too hard at times, 2017 Hungarian GP being the prime example. Poor start, tries too hard to regain lost ground, takes out his team mate from the race, as a result of his actions.
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The problem is this isn't a race every now and then, but let's look at the last 12 races or so. This weekend he binned it in qualifying, then crashed into a driver in the race. In Australia he kept driving like a madman, spun in the process too after a disappointing pace. In Mexico last year contact at the start that cost a lot to both Vettel and Hamilton in a chain reaction. In Singapore he botched the start and crashed out before turn 1. In Hungary he played destruction derby. And I'm not counting smaller infractions or minor things like errors in qualifying, hold-ups in practice, etc.. He needs to calm down a bit for sure.
 

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endlessflood said:
He's overly aggressive and prone to doing dumb things. The red mist descends way too often.

He's also super quick, and very young. Once he has a wiser head on his shoulders, look out.
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I can agree with this - if/when he becomes wiser, he'll be a threat for any championship in which he competes with any of the top 2-3 cars (depending on the gap the cars have, of course, his erratic start of the season aside the current RB can't keep up with Ferrari or Mercedes at all). But years go by, and looking at his last couple races, I'm not really seeing an improvement in race handling. He's mighty fast when everything goes his way, the moment a minor issue pops up or he needs to battle hard, he loses it. This reminds me of Vettel's early career, in a sense: he was so used to getting pushed from series to series without having to actually score results, that he didn't get used to responsible battling for championships, just race by race wheel to wheel action, and in fact up until 2012-ish Vettel would often lose his cool during battles, or fail to make relatively simple passes without doing some kind of rookie-like error. Vettel's luck, back then, was that all those issues and errors were compensated by Red Bull's shocking dominance, and his opponents' unluck got to his advantage (Ferrari botching the SC strategy in Abu Dhabi 2010, Alonso losing 40 or so points after Grosjean and Raikkonen take him out in two consecutive races in 2012, etc.). With how F1 is looking, it's hard to expect Verstappen will be in an easily dominant car anytime soon, so he needs to learn to battle with his brain turned on. He can't make or break every single pass he does at all times, it may be spectacular but very unproductive when your teammate scores more than you every season.
 
Moss

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Aiii

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FairyEmpire said:
The problem is this isn't a race every now and then, but let's look at the last 12 races or so. This weekend he binned it in qualifying, then crashed into a driver in the race. In Australia he kept driving like a madman, spun in the process too after a disappointing pace. In Mexico last year contact at the start that cost a lot to both Vettel and Hamilton in a chain reaction. In Singapore he botched the start and crashed out before turn 1. In Hungary he played destruction derby. And I'm not counting smaller infractions or minor things like errors in qualifying, hold-ups in practice, etc.. He needs to calm down a bit for sure.
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So Max is now responsible for Mexico (hit in the back), Singapore (sandwiched by Vettel cutting across him and Kimi), he should be shamed for spinning due to a damaged floor and a crash in qualy is often just unlucky (Maybe check out Brazil 2017 for Hamilton, or Ricciardo Australia 2017. I guess they're young and inexperienced, too).

If you want examples, perhaps Massa in Italy and indeed other then that Hungary applies. Other then that your examples are stretching a lot. Plus, I'd argue being eager in Hungary might have shown his impatience, but the follow-up off the track showed a maturity a 20-year-old rarily displays.
 
Theorry

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Aiii said:
So Max is now responsible for Mexico (hit in the back), Singapore (sandwiched by Vettel cutting across him and Kimi), he should be shamed for spinning due to a damaged floor and a crash in qualy is often just unlucky (Maybe check out Brazil 2017 for Hamilton, or Ricciardo Australia 2017. I guess they're young and inexperienced, too).

If you want examples, perhaps Massa in Italy and indeed other then that Hungary applies. Other then that your examples are stretching a lot. Plus, I'd argue being eager in Hungary might have shown his impatience, but the follow-up off the track showed a maturity a 20-year-old rarily displays.
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Yeah that post is baffeling really.
 
Overdoziz

Overdoziz

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Oct 26, 2017
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FairyEmpire said:
The problem is this isn't a race every now and then, but let's look at the last 12 races or so. This weekend he binned it in qualifying, then crashed into a driver in the race. In Australia he kept driving like a madman, spun in the process too after a disappointing pace. In Mexico last year contact at the start that cost a lot to both Vettel and Hamilton in a chain reaction. In Singapore he botched the start and crashed out before turn 1. In Hungary he played destruction derby. And I'm not counting smaller infractions or minor things like errors in qualifying, hold-ups in practice, etc.. He needs to calm down a bit for sure.
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I'm all for VER needing to reflect more on how he races, but this is definitely a hot take lol
 
Rolfgang

Rolfgang

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Yeah, blaming Max for Mexico and Singapore is... reaching. Especially since nearly everybody said that Max wasn't at fault in those incidents. That was both on Vettel.
 
Spades

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Maybe they should get VER to sit out one race to reflect, replaced in the RBR by KVY, then come back to a sure victory?
 

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Aiii said:
So Max is now responsible for Mexico (hit in the back), Singapore (sandwiched by Vettel cutting across him and Kimi), he should be shamed for spinning due to a damaged floor and a crash in qualy is often just unlucky (Maybe check out Brazil 2017 for Hamilton, or Ricciardo Australia 2017. I guess they're young and inexperienced, too).

If you want examples, perhaps Massa in Italy and indeed other then that Hungary applies. Other then that your examples are stretching a lot. Plus, I'd argue being eager in Hungary might have shown his impatience, but the follow-up off the track showed a maturity a 20-year-old rarily displays.
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We can play the blame game all we want, it's by far the top driver with most contacts out there, be them small or big. A crash doesn't even have to be 100% your fault, but most of the cases I mentioned have had Verstappen dive in hard or not back off when a lot of other drivers would have done so. Two of the best overtakes ever according to most are Alonso on Schumacher in Suzuka from the outside, and Webber on Alonso at Spa on the outside as well. Do you know how these passes came to be? Both times the defending driver backed off instead of forcing the other driver to brake or to crash into him. Sometimes, that pays off, and that is where Verstappen needs to improve. He is involved in far too many borderline incidents that are taking away a lot of points from himself and others as well. If we go into individual blames, Bianchi's second last season in GP2 was also one frequently remembered for dumb crashes. Sure, he wasn't always at fault directly or entirely, but when you DNF half the races you sure gotta think about your approach.
 
Rolfgang

Rolfgang

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FairyEmpire said:
We can play the blame game all we want, it's by far the top driver with most contacts out there, be them small or big. A crash doesn't even have to be 100% your fault, but most of the cases I mentioned have had Verstappen dive in hard or not back off when a lot of other drivers would have done so. Two of the best overtakes ever according to most are Alonso on Schumacher in Suzuka from the outside, and Webber on Alonso at Spa on the outside as well. Do you know how these passes came to be? Both times the defending driver backed off instead of forcing the other driver to brake or to crash into him. Sometimes, that pays off, and that is where Verstappen needs to improve. He is involved in far too many borderline incidents that are taking away a lot of points from himself and others as well. If we go into individual blames, Bianchi's second last season in GP2 was also one frequently remembered for dumb crashes. Sure, he wasn't always at fault directly or entirely, but when you DNF half the races you sure gotta think about your approach.
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So now you're saying that Hamilton should have backed off, by your logic.
 

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Rolfgang said:
So now you're saying that Hamilton should have backed off, by your logic.
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He did back off, he was almost behind by the car's entire lenght when Verstappen closed the door completely, hence why Lewis' front wing touched Max's rear tire. But this is besides the point, all I wanted to say is that Max is continously involved in crashes, pushes, contacts. Fault doesn't always fall on him and he didn't deserve to be punished every single time. But when this happens every second race or so, I'd think about his approach a bit.
 
Rolfgang

Rolfgang

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FairyEmpire said:
He did back off, he was almost behind by the car's entire lenght when Verstappen closed the door completely, hence why Lewis' front wing touched Max's rear tire. But this is besides the point, all I wanted to say is that Max is continously involved in crashes, pushes, contacts. Fault doesn't always fall on him and he didn't deserve to be punished every single time. But when this happens every second race or so, I'd think about his approach a bit.
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But Max did try to back off in Singapore, the telemetry showed he lifted. But he stood no chance between both Ferraris. And I can't remember Mexico so clearly, but the real damage started when he was way ahead of Vettel and gave him enough space. He certainly isn't always blameless but certain situations can't be avoided when you are racing at the front.
 
Tygre

Tygre

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Okay, look, I don't think the incident was worth a penalty, but anyone arguing it wasn't Max's fault, or that somehow Lewis was in the wrong, is off their head.
 
chuckddd

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Look who's getting thrown under the bus. Again.

While Horner shrugged off Verstappen's Bahrain GP exit as a racing incident after sustaining damage from a collision with Hamilton, the Red Bull boss says Ricciardo's exit was out of his team's control after suffering an electrical shutdown of the car.

"Unfortunately we have given a lot of points away, which is ultimately frustrating," Horner said. "An energy store issue is under investigation, but if that is the root cause that is the second one we have had this year. One preseason one, and potentially here. That is an element beyond our control."
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FriskyCanuck

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Italian edition of motorsport.com is reporting that things at Williams are getting tense.

Lawrence Stroll is expressing doubts about Paddy Lowe's ability. High expectations from the team and Lowe delivers a dud. Paddy Lowe went back to Grove to analyse data and engineers are suggesting putting Kubica in for FP1 at China.
 

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FriskyCanuck said:
Italian edition of motorsport.com is reporting that things at Williams are getting tense.

Lawrence Stroll is expressing doubts about Paddy Lowe's ability. High expectations from the team and Lowe delivers a dud. Paddy Lowe went back to Grove to analyse data and engineers are suggesting putting Kubica in for FP1 at China.
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Who could have seen this coming.
 
OP
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Aiii

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FriskyCanuck said:
Italian edition of motorsport.com is reporting that things at Williams are getting tense.

Lawrence Stroll is expressing doubts about Paddy Lowe's ability. High expectations from the team and Lowe delivers a dud. Paddy Lowe went back to Grove to analyse data and engineers are suggesting putting Kubica in for FP1 at China.
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So this is why Daddy wanted Massa out so badly and Sirotkin had to come in instead. This way when his son didn't make it out of Q1 like he didn't do several times last year, there is at least not another Williams making Q3.
 
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MortosDer

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That being said, if they went for paydrivers and still managed to build a shit car, then they can go rot in last place for all I care.
Yeah, I'm still salty about Kubica
 

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The worst in that, for me, is Paddy saying things suggesting they don't know how to proceed yet and don't have a clear path to recovery, they are not on top of their game and the boat is rocking hard.
My bet is that by removing material to overly-compensate for the halo and anchor requirements, "overly" in order to be able to put well placed extra weights low on chassis to lower the center of gravity, they introduced a too flexing structure that they compensate by stiff suspensions (hello wheel lifting) ... reducing the mechanical grip.
Even if i am dead wrong it's a mess anyway...

edit: Paddy loves Lawrance, well placed finger xD

lawrence-stroll-talks-with-paddy-lowe-chief-technical-officer-of-f1-picture-id943320290
 
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Torro

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I think Williams' main problem is that you cannot properly develop and set up a car with all the input and feedback coming from two mediocre rookie drivers.
 

AlsoZ

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Oct 29, 2017
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It's not looking so hot for Paddy's "Make Williams great again" career project. I don't know what kind of declining mess he took over from but the way forward is going to be difficult.
 

AlsoZ

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FriskyCanuck said:
Don't be so harsh on Sirotkin. He isn't a wunderkind like Verstappen or Leclerc, but he certainly isn't mediocre.
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He's a complete rookie at a team that doesn't seem to value their drivers beyond the size of their wallet, with a teammate who is only slightly less inexperienced than he is, driving a car that the team's engineers don't even seem to remotely understand.
I'm willing to cut him some slack there.
 
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