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Thisman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,841
Some of what the documentary makers completely overlooked to "both sides" the final product

n a 1980 article in a British psychology journal called Energy and Character, an ex-Rajneesh follower named David Boadella wrote as follows:

At a well-known religious community in the East ... sannyasins are selling their bodies on the open market to secure the money to gain a home for their souls in the spiritual community. This may take the form of earnings from masturbation shows, or prostitution, and is tacitly encouraged by the community in question, where the immoral earnings are discreetly referred to as "getting sweets." At the same community there is an official policy that actively discourages or prohibits drug taking. Unofficially, however, an active drug run organized by sannyasins flourishes with or alongside the community, and people in need of money to buy a place in the community are put in touch with it covertly by high-ranking officials there. Five or six kilos of cannabis are secreted in false-bottomed suitcases and are smuggled by plane via Amsterdam and Paris to Montreal, where they are sold for £9,000 (approximately $20,000). The drug ring collects £6,000 (approximately $13,000), and the person who smuggles the drugs collects £3,000 (approximately $6,500) toward his tickets to heaven. Several sannyasins are currently serving jail sentences for participating in the drug run. Two them used "brainwashing" as a defense at their trails, in order to get a reduced sentence.

Boadella also quoted the chief inspector of the Pune police as saying: "Prostitution by the cult's girl disciples reached disgraceful proportions. It became epidemic."

And this

Professor Johannes Aagard. He gave the following testimony:

Aagard: In Pune, Bhagwan and his people, not least his group of high-ranking officers, have established an alternative world ... . He gives them a mala with his own picture on it, and they get a piece of his hair, connecting their reality with his ... . From the beginning the aim is to do away with the mind, the personality, the memory ... . You end up being nobody. You have to give up your ego. You have to empty yourself totally to surrender to Bhagwan. "Total surrender" are the key words. This is done by a series of humiliating acts where you are forced to do what you hate to do in the group. You lose the identity feeling which is connected with certain acts, certain reservations, certain sexual inhibitions. In a number of those workshops promiscuity takes place in the most rude and horrible ways. Male persons are allowed to do whatever they like with females, and vice versa, and it aims at bringing down the consciousness connected with the individual in order that a new consciousness connected with Bhagwan and his ideology take its place.

And this

Kristina had told her the following about her experiences in a Tantra group: "Kristina was commanded to have sexual intercourse with every man in the group in turn, in order to 'kill her ego.' The group leader, a woman, shouted at her: 'If you are to surrender to Bhagwan, you must surrender to anybody here, to any man although the mere thought of it makes you sick—you are not to think—just let it happen!'"

"Osho" was essentially a pimp and used the women to get money by being prostitutes

The highest money you could get In India with a prostitute was a western woman and this group used them to get the highest money they could get to fund his crime syndicate

Once they had enough money they performed a massive immigration fraud to move to US and live a comfortable life where land use laws were not as strict as India


And if that's not enough of their evil, then there is this

But that's not all. There was also discovered a top-secret research project called Moses Five, whose objective was to cultivate a live AIDS virus. Rajneesh had predicted that two thirds of the world's population would die of AIDS, and the first question was: If Puja could have produced such a virus, might Rajneesh possibly have used it to make his prediction come true? In his book on Aum Shinrikyo Destroying the World in Order to Save it, Robert Jay Lifton introduced the concept of "action prophet" to describe a cult leader who "aggressively sought to bring about whatever he predicted." "What made Asahara an action prophet," he explained, "was the inseparability of prophecy and action, of what he imagined and what he did."

In their medical lab where they built salmonella cultures, they were planning to weaponize the AIDS virus in order to fulfill their leaders "predictions" that half the world would die of aids soon
 
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GMM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,481
Just finished it, that was quite the story and I was surprised I had not heard about this incident at some point in my life.

All the people in this thing with the exception of the journalist and state attorney were absolute horrible people. The townspeople of Antelope were judgmental old farts that probably were more religious than most of the people that wasn't that high up in the cult, god forbid that people might want to have sex in way you don't condone of.

Sheela is (or atleast was), a complete psychopath willing to do just about anything to keep her master happy with her, with no regard for the people that might stand in her way. She was the true evil here, Bhagwan was just a con man that broke immigration laws and gave people some seemingly extremely shitty advice at times, it's surprising that it's apparently still a thing even after he passed away.

Bhagwan had an extreme influence on the life of his followers and some probably found happiness or learned to be better people from him, but reading what others have posted in this thread it does seem like the documentary doesn't really explore the shadier sides of the cult all that much. Bhagwan fleeing was probably the best outcome the police could have hoped for, since they were able to avoid going to the heavily armed farm.

It was really messed up how the state suspended voter registration for the homeless, I understand why they felt that was the correct solution after what happened with Antelope, but it seemed like a very big violation of the rights of those homeless people. Generally people seemed pissed that the commune was using the law to their advantage and the lawyer seems right in calling out how insane it was that they were the ones being treated as criminals when nothing illegal was going on initially.

The cult drugging the homeless and poisoning the city was really infuriating stuff, especially seeing on how big a scale they did it. They abused thousands of people to seize the rights to build their holy land, Sheela got off easy for being a pivotal person in those events. I'm very surprised no one died as a direct result of the cult's actions, it had disaster written all over it.

The Australian lady was just a dumb follower of Sheela, she needed mental health treatment instead of being the patsey for attempted murders wished by Sheela. Her going back to the states to see her dying son was really something, the judge was right in his call to sentence her to time served, she had suffered enough by the hands of Sheela and Bhagwan.

I really enjoyed this documentary, super well made and a fascinating subject matter. I would however have preferred that the interviews were 16:9 instead of the ultra wide cinema aspect ratio they went with, it was super jarring since they had tons of 4:3 archive footage in this thing.

Can't wait to read some more about Bhagwan and the cult, still a lot to learn it seems.
 

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
We don't really know all the kinds of shit the town people were involved in, because the documentary only shows their bigotry, xenophobia, hostility, hypocrisy, political chicanery, and implicit threats of violence, which is plenty repulsive enough. However, since all those things you just listed (or most of them, at least) have persisted for thousands of years under the shiny veneer of white populations like this one, we can't really rule them out. The current political climate certainly demonstrates the sort of heinous shit these "good ol' country folk" are willing to stoop to with just a little encouragement from the powers that be.

You're losing me. You really want to compare hypothetical actions, based on the history of a certain demographic, against things that actually happened in the real world?

I have no doubt a lot of the opposition was bigoted, racist, xenophobic, etc. Fact of the matter is, though, in this specific situation (I understand the history of shitty behavior by whites), the conservative Antelope populace ended up justified in their fears. It's like a broken watch thing to me, honestly.
 

Thisman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,841
This is GOLD



Also this video demonstrates how much this Netflix documentary didn't tell

 
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Real Hero

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,329
I dunno, some of us don't have the luxury of seeing these old white bigots as Grandma and Grandpa. (For that matter, nearly all of my relatives are old white bigots, so I know first hand what kind of terrible people they are.)
I think it's stupid as fuck to even equate the two at all. What did they say that was so bad? They were terrified of a weird group and were correct to have that feeling. The cult was made up of even more privileged white people anyway
 

hombremalo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,959
After reading more, friendship cancelled with Sheela, and surprised there is an Osho gathering every year here in Spain, seems like a rip off, 300€ entry.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,108
I find it amusing that everyone here is able to see that the documentary is trying to make the cult sympathetic, but can't guess that the documentary might also be trying to make you think that the townspeople were stereotypical backwards racists. Both sides give their postmortems as 'The other side were pieces of shit from the start and we knew it!' because they have complete hindsight and be vindicated in whatever they say. They were obviously a cult and people at the time reacted accordingly.
 

mjc

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,879
Incredible documentary series, although I would agree that the commune was given a fair bit more sympathy than they should have been given.

The dichotomy of Sheela's personality disturbs me too. She was so frank and set on harming people when necessary, then she develops a desire to care for those in need later in life. I suppose people can change..but I don't think that kind of darkness ever leaves.
 
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Thisman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,841
I find it amusing that everyone here is able to see that the documentary is trying to make the cult sympathetic, but can't guess that the documentary might also be trying to make you think that the townspeople were stereotypical backwards racists. Both sides give their postmortems as 'The other side were pieces of shit from the start and we knew it!' because they have complete hindsight and be vindicated in whatever they say. They were obviously a cult and people at the time reacted accordingly.

"Both sides"

One side acting like nazis and one are fearful.

Looking at this and other news from the time and article, the townfolks fear was only ramped up when they reneged their promise to be a farming only community and changed to a religion with town takeover attempts

The majority of rajneeshi were white folks so the racial charge on townfolks doesn't really count.
 

TheRagnCajun

Member
Oct 29, 2017
590
I find it amusing that everyone here is able to see that the documentary is trying to make the cult sympathetic, but can't guess that the documentary might also be trying to make you think that the townspeople were stereotypical backwards racists. Both sides give their postmortems as 'The other side were pieces of shit from the start and we knew it!' because they have complete hindsight and be vindicated in whatever they say. They were obviously a cult and people at the time reacted accordingly.

The cult was full of white people from what I could see.

Its not really a story about Antelope. The conflict between the cult and Antelope pretty quickly became irrelevant. Antelope residents became the minority and the cult had their way with the town.

The real conflict is between the cult and the state of Oregon. Its hard to see how the cult unfairly characterized, because the whole ordeal never went to trial. We have an AG saying "we have tonnes of evidence" and a cult lawyer saying "they had no evidence". In the end Osho plead guilty, so there's that.

For me the most interesting story here is between Sheela and Osho. There is so much left unsaid about what happened between them. Why did Sheela wire tap everyone? Why did she have hidden rooms? Why did she have an escape tunnel? Why did Osho turn on Sheela? She definitely comes off as a psychopath. I wonder if she was really protecting Osho when she conspired to have his doctor poisoned.
 

Lady Murasaki

Scary Shiny Glasses
Member
Oct 25, 2017
680

I laughed at this, but this shows how indeed the cult was designed to attract young, educated (and preferentially rich) people. The liberal dogmas are very seducing, especially considering the academic and cultural climate at the time.

The way that documentary shows the cult doesn't help either - it has clearly a positive light except in the most obvious moments (like the poisoning and the planning of the murders). You can even see it in the soundtrack - the ominous, country tunes when talking with the Antelope people and the luminous guitar tunes when showing the Rajneeshees. It also paints Sheela as a crazy psychopath but with tons of charm and appeal, but also dismisses the particularities of what was really the daily life at the ranch, and at the end is clear that the doc blames Bagwan's downfall on the ''Hollywood Crowd'' (which I believe was guilty - because of them with their Inner Circle that the cult managed to survive as a business as it is today).

The nomenclatures are one of the key points that show how it was really a cult - calling himself ''The Bagwan'' already is a red flag. And the twist on the sannyasin concept too. The footage of him being followed and surrounded by young women creeped me out at the very beginning.

When it comes to The New Republic's article I have my doubts (especially since he says he is basing it on his own texts and can't provide all the necessary documentation) but a lot of what he says makes sense, especially the way that sex was used and about the cash flow. I wondered how they could sustain all those people, plus the structures, plus the luxuries that Bhagwan was such fan. It didn't seem like the community was auto sustainable, even in Oregon. People stopped working to be on the ashram/ranch. Also, it isn't surprising the abuse of minors - it as a common variable in any cult, including the ones who repress sex. And unfortunately, we are talking about a decade when it was ok for a film like ''Pretty Baby'' to be released.

About the Antelope citizens, it is clear how ignorant they are - even when their fear was justified. It was primarily a fear of the different, and they were pretty hostile even before knowing what was going on at the cult. It is funny how things like the red clothes and the Rolls Royces became obsessive points for all of those who were against the Rajneeshees. I felt like most of the townspeople were even excited about having a strange situation in their lives (especially Silvertooth and Bowerman). I also doubt that things would move so quickly if the Bowermans weren't so influent (even he recognizes that the investigation started as a favor).

One thing though that the doc shows and people ignored when saying who was guilty of starting the hostilities is that the townspeople who started the gun stuff threatening people with shotguns. And the Rajneeshees weren't any better afterward.
 

malingenie

Member
Oct 29, 2017
197
I also found it pretty telling that the devotees were disgusted by the chaos in India, but loved it when they were able to cross the doors to the Ashram. A curated version of mystical India. It's like an obscene version of cultural appropriation in which they embraced just the parts they liked and were made specially for them.
 

Lady Murasaki

Scary Shiny Glasses
Member
Oct 25, 2017
680
I also found it pretty telling that the devotees were disgusted by the chaos in India, but loved it when they were able to cross the doors to the Ashram. A curated version of mystical India. It's like an obscene version of cultural appropriation in which they embraced just the parts they liked and were made specially for them.

This! The cool version, perfectly designed for the foreign taste. It is curious that I didn't see anyone who was Indian except Rajneesh and Sheela (and Laxmi, but they never touch her name or whereabouts again). Everyone else was white, rich, Westerners. They show a few Japanese sannyasins once. And you only see Black people when the homeless people were brought in.

I liked the lawyer, Niren, a lot - he seemed so sincere, the only one among all the Rajneesh interviewees and other figures like KD, the doctor, and Hasya. But I wonder if he was aware of these atrocities that supposedly happened inside the ranch and this would make him a complete piece of shit (or someone extremely brainwashed).

Another thing I found odd is how Sheela never mention any of the other key figures, specially Niren, while they mention her all the time. If I am right she only mentions KD and that's all.
 

TheRagnCajun

Member
Oct 29, 2017
590
I liked the lawyer, Niren, a lot - he seemed so sincere, the only one among all the Rajneesh interviewees and other figures like KD, the doctor, and Hasya. But I wonder if he was aware of these atrocities that supposedly happened inside the ranch and this would make him a complete piece of shit (or someone extremely brainwashed).
.

As the de facto cult lawyer, and later mayor, he was aware of the allegations and the evidence.
 

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
Learning about "bhagwan" and what it translates to, is just another thing I'm frustrated with the documentary over. I don't think they ever explain the translation, do they? It's bizarre.

The hypocrisy when they proclaim Rhajneeshism to be dead, getting rid of "this color only" rules, etc. is laid on really thick when they get back to India and are tripping over themselves for what to call Rhajneesh. And it looked like they immediately just switched to white robes (although the red is still a thing nowadays?).

It's like Simpsons-level comedy.

I also found it pretty telling that the devotees were disgusted by the chaos in India, but loved it when they were able to cross the doors to the Ashram. A curated version of mystical India. It's like an obscene version of cultural appropriation in which they embraced just the parts they liked and were made specially for them.

Hahaha, yeah, I did turn to my girlfriend at that point and roll my eyes. The ashram was described/shown as so beautiful, so idyllic when it was mentioned it was in the middle of a poor district/neighborhood. It's telling that Bhagwan rarely left it--I can't imagine all the rich, white "sennyasins" often left their paradise, either.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
I am only on episode 2 so far, man Sheela is really bout it bout it. Everyone needs an Episode 1 & 2 Sheela in their life. Hahaha lets see what happens next.
 

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
Check out Welcome to Leith on Netflix, as well. Production values aren't nearly as high, but it's a 1.5 hour (or less, I think) documentary about a group of neo-Nazis who tried to take over a small (25 person) town. It doesn't reach the highs of Wild Wild Country but is almost more disturbing as it honestly portrays these white supremacists. The supremacists themselves are also completely open about what they want, as opposed to the smoke-and-mirrors of the Rhajneeshees.
 

TheZynster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,285
Check out Welcome to Leith on Netflix, as well. Production values aren't nearly as high, but it's a 1.5 hour (or less, I think) documentary about a group of neo-Nazis who tried to take over a small (25 person) town. It doesn't reach the highs of Wild Wild Country but is almost more disturbing as it honestly portrays these white supremacists. The supremacists themselves are also completely open about what they want, as opposed to the smoke-and-mirrors of the Rhajneeshees.


going to mark this down too. Holy shit, so much good stuff to watch on netflix
 

meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,611
You're losing me. You really want to compare hypothetical actions, based on the history of a certain demographic, against things that actually happened in the real world?
Hypothetical actions? Their behaviors already showed the town folk to be awful people. I'm simply pointing out that there could be even worse stuff going on in the lives of awful people that are fueled by bigoted, hateful views, as history has proven.

And I'm not comparing them. The cult was horrifying evil on a scale and degree unmatched by the town folk. Simply observing that the "original" citizens of Antelope were no angels either is not by any stretch an equivalence.

I have no doubt a lot of the opposition was bigoted, racist, xenophobic, etc. Fact of the matter is, though, in this specific situation (I understand the history of shitty behavior by whites), the conservative Antelope populace ended up justified in their fears. It's like a broken watch thing to me, honestly.
Not disagreeing with that at all.

I think it's stupid as fuck to even equate the two at all. What did they say that was so bad? They were terrified of a weird group and were correct to have that feeling. The cult was made up of even more privileged white people anyway
Since when does being "right" absolve a group from being assholes? Since when is saying the people of Antelope were bigoted, xenophobic cowards (some of whom were on camera saying the wanted to shoot cult members) the same as saying that they were as bad as a manipulative cult that tried to poison an entire town, abused members, and attempted to engineer biological genocide? Nuance is dead, it seems.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,460
What a wild story. Just finished episode 3 and while I'm sympathetic to the concerns and worries of the anti-rajneesh people I'm mostly just impressed and amused by their cunning.

Also, am I the only one with a massive crush on Sheela. Jesus what a badass.
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,091
Finished this last night with my wife. The last half of the last episode is extremely poor and meandering, but overall I don't see how this documentary seems particularly tilted toward the Rajneeshees. The oblique way with which each of them discusses their time with, participation in and opinion of the Rajneesh movement is as frustrating as it is arrogant and self-serving. You have this woman (Shanti B) sitting in a quaint, cozy, library, seemingly living the life she wanted, calmly discussing how she was repeatedly involved in attempts to murder another human being and then in the same session crying over how happy she was that an entire courtroom of people were happy for her to see her dying son.

Swami Prem Niren (the lawyer/2nd mayor) can jump off a cliff too. It's beyond clear he was as cunning, manipulative, and in it for the ego boost as Bhagwan or the "Hollywood People".

Miss me with that victimization narrative; garbage people.

The residents of Antelope, guided by fear of the outsider, were unfortunately justified in their paranoia, and that's sad, because it only seems to have re-affirmed whatever pre-conceived notions they had about what it means to be 'American' or 'Christian'. I don't think I have any particularly strong emotion toward them either way.
 

Paz

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,148
Brisbane, Australia
About half way through this doco so far, and as someone who grew up knowing those that followed Rajneesh and knowing about the shit that went down the biggest shock to me is how utterly incapable of self reflection the Oregon locals were and still are, they keep harping on about the cult doing stuff that was terrifying but it's all stuff they at one point wish they themselves were doing to the cult!??

Middle america is really fucked up.

But damn Rajneesh was way more fucked up. Sorta weird to see it all play out in this doco and mesh with my memories of what folks told me had happened.

Also I grew up a Hare Krsna and the Rajneesh fucked up-ness really gave people a dim view on any spiritual movement that came out of India, in my experience. Everything religious that's not related to the big three was and kinda still is considered a cult.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,865
Just finished this. Really don't know where to fall in the end. Stupid fanatics for a cult leader who is clearly a conman. Old rural white folk who don't like anything different. Sheela
being a psychopath but admitting it's a con but then also in the present day still having some sort of admiration and spiritual respect for Bhagwan?

I think Shanti was the most likeable, in the end.
 

MC-MC

Member
Dec 15, 2017
520
The craziest thing about this documentary was Jonestown; WTF???!!?!? Didn't realise that many people committed suicide!!! And all those murdered children? Harrowing stuff. Are there any good documentaries about this?
 

moblin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,107
Москва
The craziest thing about this documentary was Jonestown; WTF???!!?!? Didn't realise that many people committed suicide!!! And all those murdered children? Harrowing stuff. Are there any good documentaries about this?
These two are pretty good, lots of footage, audio, and interviews:







People also like Paradise Lost but it's actors reconstructing real events.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
So I'm almost done watching this. Amazed I had never heard of this organization prior to this popping up on Netflix. That being said, I understand the criticism posted here, but I think that itself is missing some context. There was that New Republic article that was posted, and the guy who was basically an expert on the Rajneeshees said it was still the most fair assessment of what happened. I think the important thing to note, is that a lot of the people interviewed are pretty secretive. They aren't out writing books and giving lectures, so the best you can do is get them to tell their story. Documentaries fall apart when you try and focus on a specific narrative, and I think this one would have been seen similarly if they hadn't gotten Sheela and Niren to talk about their experiences in depth (partially because some of these folks have been waiting to capitalize on their experiences, Niren has a bio of Osho coming out and Shanti B has been teasing a book herself). I think there was a huge failure on the part of the prosecutors and residents to sell their case. They could have gone into detail about the information they learned about the Poona commune, but it seems like they really didn't bother, choosing to focus on the (admittedly awful) crimes and activities in the United States from 1981-1985.

I enjoyed it. Was an interesting watch about a shockingly undermentioned incident in American history.
 

JetSetSoul

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,185
Taken aback by how unapologetic and self aggrandizing Sheela had been, comes off like a psychopath I thought.

The local Antelope man in suspenders is my hero.
 
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PixelBastard

Banned
Jan 7, 2018
232
All the violence started after the towns people bombed one of the cults buildings, then it snowballed.

Watched the whole thing and the documentary was pretty biased toward the Rajneeshis in my opinion. Blatantly. They never even explain why the homeless people were drugged or what happened afterwards. Sheela never talks about any of the bad shit. There's overt stuff too like playing a sombre or uplifting tone while talking about the commune and then playing a dark, ominous music when talking about the government authorities. They go to great lengths to establish why the commune became militarized. I believe what the old dude (silvertooth?) at the end said about Rajneesh was entirely correct, that Rajneesh was a scam artist and duped soulless westerners looking for eastern mysticism (and free sex and drugs) into his cult and raked in millions. He loved living like a king, and he loved adoration. He figured out that if you convince enough idiots, they will give cash hand over fist. 20 fucking Rolls Royce-es, $10m Rolex watch, sparkly ass clothes. Good lord. While his followers were forced to wear cheap tjmaxx maroon pajamas and not wear any jewelery. His followers emptied their pockets for him while he reveled in riches. Also no one talked about this, but Bhagwan means God in Hindi. So the guy thought of himself as a God.

There were number of new age movements after the war ended and this was simply the biggest one.

I kind of feel for antelope though, speaking as an immigrant minority myself who the Antelope residents would probably want deported in an instant, I wouldn't ever want to disturb a community with my ways or just cause unnecessary hardship. Just because the Constitution says it's ok does not mean you can strut around anywhere you want and disturb existing peace. I mean you can, but you'll need to be a real asshat (which the Rajneeshis were). Sheela did a horrible job. She should have picked a spot in a desert patch somewhere and the commune would still be thriving today. She picked it too close to a town and they didn't want any of it.

They did explain. They drugged the homeless after one went berserk in public and started to choke that crazy secretary bitch, so they decided to sedate the lot of them.
 

MarioW

PikPok
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,155
New Zealand
Finished watching this last night after a couple of nights.

I didn't find it overly sympathetic to the cult as some suggest, so much as almost everybody involved just having their bad traits come out (though the doco did move past the criminal activity pretty quickly). The Antelope townspeople over-reacted to "change" right out of the gate, lacked any kind of understanding, were very judgemental, and advocating violence. The cult for their part developed a massive persecution complex, exaggerated the nature of every challenge to their efforts e.g. "they are trying to destroy us", and developed egos and power trips which ultimately manifested in attempted murder and mass poisoning. Hard to say whether the cult would have ended up where they did in terms of militarization and criminal activity without them and the townspeople (and the State) feeding back and forth off each other and escalating the situation. I suspect yes, eventually, but it wouldn't have been as fast. Was good at least that all those guns on both sides didn't amount to any deaths.

My favourite was the jokey (ex?) mayor of Antelope who approached the whole thing with a sense of amusement. If more people involved had his attitude I think things would have been a lot smoother.

I felt kind of sorry for the cult lawyer. He was still drinking the kool aid today. He seemed like he just needed to be hugged more often.
 

JetSetSoul

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,185
90 Rolls Royces. Didn't sympathize with anyone in the cult after hearing that. Like, that's your amazing dude, huh?

Plus there's court transcript of a discussion he had with Sheela saying it would be okay to kill people. On the same tape he says he's a Hitler fan too apparently, but I guess that's no surprise. I put the link to the transcript below in case anyone is interested.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/73907-ava-avalos-trial-testimony.html#document/p53/a14420
"Hitler had great vision."

And he claimed Sheela was the fascist lol!
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,634
Tel Aviv
Just finished watching this. What a ride. I knew Osho from way back, read some of his books and my mom used to be hardcore into him when I was little. I knew nothing of the Oregon commune though, and this whole thing caught me 100% by surprise. I really could sympathize with both sides by the end.
What surprised me the most was just how fucking badass Sheela was. I mean, I don't condone anything she did but my god she's the best character I've seen on TV all year.
 

JoduanER2

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
110
Just finished the last episode. Putting aside the poisoning, eventual attempted murder and assassination plots, I think what ultimately led to the Rajneeshpuram's downfall was how aggressive and greedy they got. Sheela in particular's gleeful antagonism towards the residents of Antelope certainly didn't help the group gain any favor among the populace. She practically signed the group's death warrant the moment she openly proclaimed they want to take over the local, county, and state government and practically told people who don't like that to go fuck themselves. Were the residents judging the group without knowing a single thing about them? Absolutely. There was a lot of "I don't understand them so I don't trust them" kind of attitudes going around based on the interviews. It definitely played into the stereotype of the small-town white country folk who get scared by anyone who doesn't fit their mold of what is "normal" (ie white and Christian).

But when I think about it - if a religious group came into my small town and suddenly started buying up huge swaths of land and property within a span of months or a couple years, began taking over the local government, renamed the town/streets after their group or messiah, and even started taking over local businesses, yeah, I'd probably freak out a little too. Of course there is no excuse for the vandalism and bombing of the hotel - thankfully none one was killed. If Rajneeshpuram had been slower and more methodical with regards to integrating themselves into the community instead of literally taking it over within a span of a couple of years while Sheela gave the locals the finger every step of the way, there's a decent chance that the group would have had a slightly easier time being accepted. Of course, not poisoning the whole town probably would have helped to :P

I'm amazed that I had never ever heard of this story before, it was utterly fascinating.

What an experience this people must have had. Im truly amazed by this story, its so surreal. As you say that was their downfall, rapid expansion, and the confrontational attitude of Sheela and the others.
 

Loxley

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,607

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,317
Just finished watching this. What a ride. I knew Osho from way back, read some of his books and my mom used to be hardcore into him when I was little. I knew nothing of the Oregon commune though, and this whole thing caught me 100% by surprise. I really could sympathize with both sides by the end.
What surprised me the most was just how fucking badass Sheela was. I mean, I don't condone anything she did but my god she's the best character I've seen on TV all year.
Sheela was something to be sure. She's like those caricatures of cult leaders you see on television except she's real. After watching the whole documentary, I can totally see how someone could be lured in by her passion, especially those yuppie white people who probably felt disillusioned by corporate America.
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,558
While I don't mind the cult being portrayed slight sympathetically Sheela needed to be fucking called out for wanting to murder so many people
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
I liked the lawyer, Niren, a lot - he seemed so sincere, the only one among all the Rajneesh interviewees and other figures like KD, the doctor, and Hasya. But I wonder if he was aware of these atrocities that supposedly happened inside the ranch and this would make him a complete piece of shit (or someone extremely brainwashed).
He was the most brainwashed of anyone interviewed. The man could not keep from crying every time he mentioned Osho's name. He was still entwined in the cult hivemind 30 years later. There were points during the last episode where I would just blurt out, "then go to church, god damn" every time he mentioned not having that "togetherness" or whatever it was he had with the people in Oregon. He could not separate his reverence of Osho with reality.

The Australian lady was my personal favorite. The story of the judge at her trial was legit heartwarming.
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,354
Will put some thoughts in spoilers even though this is a documentary but lol

Sheela's insane. Blatantly drunk on power and actively tried to murder people, terrorize Antelope, and sedate masses of homeless people because they couldn't treat them like cattle.

One thing that stood out was the incident that brought about the mass sedation of the homeless: the guy who was violent and tried to strangle Sheela.

First off, that's entirely off sheela's account so that's just her viewpoint. The only reason why I call that into question was because she claims her security detail "sedated" the guy to stop him from strangling her. But that's not how sedatives work. Even really strong sedatives used in zoos and shit take minutes on end to neutralize someone.

Just what the hell did they actually do to the guy? "They sedated him" as he was about to kill her? Nah, not that simple. They either shot the dude and killed him, or this is a made up/embellished incident to justify the mass sedation of the homeless population in Rajneesh. Something's extremely fishy there and I'm surprised the documentary just glossed over that.
 

Lady Murasaki

Scary Shiny Glasses
Member
Oct 25, 2017
680
Will put some thoughts in spoilers even though this is a documentary but lol

Sheela's insane. Blatantly drunk on power and actively tried to murder people, terrorize Antelope, and sedate masses of homeless people because they couldn't treat them like cattle.

One thing that stood out was the incident that brought about the mass sedation of the homeless: the guy who was violent and tried to strangle Sheela.

First off, that's entirely off sheela's account so that's just her viewpoint. The only reason why I call that into question was because she claims her security detail "sedated" the guy to stop him from strangling her. But that's not how sedatives work. Even really strong sedatives used in zoos and shit take minutes on end to neutralize someone.

Just what the hell did they actually do to the guy? "They sedated him" as he was about to kill her? Nah, not that simple. They either shot the dude and killed him, or this is a made up/embellished incident to justify the mass sedation of the homeless population in Rajneesh. Something's extremely fishy there and I'm surprised the documentary just glossed over that.

I didn't notice this detail, very good point. I bet on the latter. I was kinda under the Rajneeshee spell as I finished this doc, but I searched stuff about them afterwards and it doesn't look good. It doesn't seem implausible they got scared after the tension between the two groups started in the commune - it was a really poorly planned move (and the ''solution'' is even worse).
 

BLOODED_hands

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,931
Lol. I'm now on the part where Sheela's getting jealous of Bhagwan being courted by the Hollywood People. Uh hello, the dude was probably all in it for the shiny and material things from the jump, Sheela!
 

Lady Murasaki

Scary Shiny Glasses
Member
Oct 25, 2017
680
Lol. I'm now on the part where Sheela's getting jealous of Bhagwan being courted by the Hollywood People. Uh hello, the dude was probably all in it for the shiny and material things from the jump, Sheela!

And she was in for the power, that's why they worked so well together and reached this fantastic wealth and power as a community. Unlike Lakshimi she was bold and loved to command and finally he could enjoy the pleasures and riches of his position without getting his hands dirty anymore.

But then the Hollywood Crowd appeared, Sheela wanted even more power [the accusations that she aspired to be a high priestess make a lot of sense] and other people were interested in it too, so things started to derail.