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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Hi everyone, eternal lurker of this thread here.
Finally I have something to show from my game The Grand Grimoire! I've been slowly working on it for about 2 years and just started my website, Twitter and Facebook. The game is still in very early development.

It is a 2D RPG with a turn based battle system. There are no random encounters and no separate battle screen. This allows for the player to use the environment to his advantage, either in the midst of the fight or in preparation for it. Additionally to fighting with your weapons or magic you can use Mechs (or rather Mechanical Armors - Still need a name for them) and even with your customizable airship. It's a very traditional RPG heavy influenced by SNES and PSX JRPGs combined with modern gamedesign.

tgg_01.png
tgg_02.png

tgg_05.png

tgg_03.png
tgg_04.png


And some gifs to look at in motion!





Finally no more lurking :D


You... you made all of that by yourself? In two years? O_o
 

Ark Heiral

Member
Nov 16, 2017
70
You... you made all of that by yourself? In two years? O_o

Yes, although nothing is really complete yet. For example everything I made for that town is in this screenshot. There is nothing more yet. And if look closely the NPCs running around are the main party characters. I've still got a lot of work to do!

I love the art work and theme of the game here!!! Awesome

I'm happy to hear that. :)
 

Jump_Button

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,786
Hi everyone, eternal lurker of this thread here.
Finally I have something to show from my game The Grand Grimoire! I've been slowly working on it for about 2 years and just started my website, Twitter and Facebook. The game is still in very early development.

It is a 2D RPG with a turn based battle system. There are no random encounters and no separate battle screen. This allows for the player to use the environment to his advantage, either in the midst of the fight or in preparation for it. Additionally to fighting with your weapons or magic you can use Mechs (or rather Mechanical Armors - Still need a name for them) and even with your customizable airship. It's a very traditional RPG heavy influenced by SNES and PSX JRPGs combined with modern gamedesign.

tgg_01.png
tgg_02.png

tgg_05.png

tgg_03.png
tgg_04.png


And some gifs to look at in motion!





Finally no more lurking :D


As a rule it not good to be have a character looking over they shoulder make them look shady and shifty, but love the style.
 

Donkeykwon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
113
Hi everyone, eternal lurker of this thread here.
Finally I have something to show from my game The Grand Grimoire! I've been slowly working on it for about 2 years and just started my website, Twitter and Facebook. The game is still in very early development.

It is a 2D RPG with a turn based battle system. There are no random encounters and no separate battle screen. This allows for the player to use the environment to his advantage, either in the midst of the fight or in preparation for it. Additionally to fighting with your weapons or magic you can use Mechs (or rather Mechanical Armors - Still need a name for them) and even with your customizable airship. It's a very traditional RPG heavy influenced by SNES and PSX JRPGs combined with modern gamedesign.

tgg_01.png
tgg_02.png

tgg_05.png

tgg_03.png
tgg_04.png


And some gifs to look at in motion!





Finally no more lurking :D

Are you working with any indie publishers? Any plans for platforms outside of Steam?
 

Ark Heiral

Member
Nov 16, 2017
70
As a rule it not good to be have a character looking over they shoulder make them look shady and shifty, but love the style.

Now that you mention it... In his potrait it really feels like you describes. In his full artwork he looks rather friendly but cropped you might be right. I might have to change that.

contact.png


Are you working with any indie publishers? Any plans for platforms outside of Steam?

Nope, not yet. I made this game just 2 days ago public and haven't talked with anyone about it yet. :D That is all yet to come I guess. At the moment I'm concentrating on a PC/Mac/Linux release. But I would like to see it released on other plattforms like PS4, Switch, XboxOne, as well. My next step in the near future will be a crowdfunding campaign. But first things first I need more content.
 

Donkeykwon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
113
Now that you mention it... In his potrait it really feels like you describes. In his full artwork he looks rather friendly but cropped you might be right. I might have to change that.

contact.png




Nope, not yet. I made this game just 2 days ago public and haven't talked with anyone about it yet. :D That is all yet to come I guess. At the moment I'm concentrating on a PC/Mac/Linux release. But I would like to see it released on other plattforms like PS4, Switch, XboxOne, as well. My next step in the near future will be a crowdfunding campaign. But first things first I need more content.

So excited for you! For the Switch at least, Kinda Funny and Kotaku both had great interview with Nintendo's Damon Baker about how indies can publish on the Switch. Good luck!

Kinda Funny: https://youtu.be/nQ_yS5tPnDE
Kotaku: https://kotaku.com/switchs-success-means-a-changing-nintendo-1823969115
 

Landford

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,678
A bit of an off topic question, for the expert programmers. Im starting Information Systems in college, and also starting game development on Game Maker Studo 2, so programming is still very new to me. Im following tutorials, and such, but something is bothering me a bit. Currently Im starting data structures, and the number of functions and syntaxes are growing exponentially for me to remember. The question is: through trial and repetition, you guys eventually start remembering all the functions and parameters? Or is kinda normal going after the documentation for every single thing?

EDIT: Also, Ark Heiral , this looks really amazing. That overworld, specially, its something really awesome. I plan to have my game ready in about fiveish years, but looking at this level of pixel art and remembering I`ll have to learn it from scratch makes me anxious hahaha
 
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DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,871
A bit of an off topic question, for the expert programmers. Im starting Information Systems in college, and also starting game development on Game Maker Studo 2, so programming is still very new to me. Im following tutorials, and such, but something is bothering me a bit. Currently Im starting data structures, and the number of functions and syntaxes are growing exponentially for me to remember. The question is: through trial and repetition, you guys eventually start remembering all the functions and parameters? Or is kinda normal going after the documentation for every single thing?

EDIT: Also, Ark Heiral , this looks really amazing. That overworld, specially, its something really awesome. I plan to have my game ready in about fiveish years, but looking at this level of pixel art and remembering I`ll have to learn it from scratch makes me anxious hahaha

Through repetition you can learn and remember just about anything but going back to the documentation to see how to do it is perfectly common. There are certain things you won't use often so don't feel bad if you forget syntax or have to look it up. When it comes to learning data structures, learning which ones are available, how they work, and when to use it are more important that remembering the syntax for it. This is even more true if do work in multiple languages.
 

Kwigo

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,025
Hi there :) working on my first ever RPG battle system. It's turn based and uses few stats to keep it simple since it would be my first RPG.

Would love to get some input:
The stats range from 1 to 100:
- Power
- Defense
- Speed
- Accuracy

Character HP range from 1 to 999 and MP from 1 to 99. Enemy HP ranges from 1 to 9999.
The player only uses spells, enemies use spells and/or physical attacks (with or without weapons) but I want to keep it at 1 defense stat.

Basically the combat would work like this:
Turns: Every character plays in turn depending on his speed, from 100 to 1. Everyone over 80 gets a second action before the turn ends in order from 100 to 80.
Example: Char 1 has 78 speed, char 2 has 81, char 3 has 98, Enemy 1 has 87 and enemy 2 has 58.
Action order would be:
Turn 1:
- Char 3
- Enemy 1
- Char 2
- Char 1
- Enemy 2
- Char 3
- Enemy 1
- Char 2
Turn ends.

Hit calculation:
Not quite sure how to do it yet. I want to test the accuracy from the attacker to the speed (which also counts as evasion) of the defender.
I was thinking something along the lines of:
Hit % = 200 - ((atkAccuracy / defSpeed )* 100) but it seems extremely silly. I'm sure there's an easier and more intelligent way to do it, I just can't put the finger on it.

Damage calculation also should stay rather simple. I'm going with:
Damage = (Power *2 + SpellPower) - Defense
I need to test this out a lot of course, but I'm thinking of using spell power ranges from 5 to 999.

Also there will be equipment and abilities that will give more power, defense etc. to the characters, so it will be possible to get more than 100 in some stats.

What do you guys think? Would really appreciate some input from you :)
 

Landford

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,678
So, this may sound a bit silly, but I just finished my first script, to generate a "crop" from an object list when pressing a mouse buttom. So happy, hahaha. That marks my second week in game development!

giphy.gif


EDIT: I didnt saw the answers! thanks, guys. Yeah, I am currently trying to wrap my head around how exactly the functions work before trying to memorize the sintaxes for it. Trying to build a "Library" of tools in my head so I can use them easily in the future.
 
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2+2=5

Member
Oct 29, 2017
971
Are you using your own engine?
All of the above make the situation harder indeed, particularly the free camera, and the fact it's 3D (or to be technical, perspective rather than ortographic). I have the intuition that there are some black magic tricks you could use to make the sprites look pixel perfect in all situations, but it would involve some crazy math scaling the sprites in-world taking into account their depth and the camera zoom.

Fake edit: I just googled and at least in Unity, you can have the camera object do all the black magic math by itself:
https://answers.unity.com/questions/268611/with-a-perspective-camera-distance-independent-siz.html
Not sure if there'd be anything similar on your engine (what is it, BTW?), but of course, it would make things look odd if there's heavy zooming (your character would seem to become gigantic when the camera zooms out. :D).

As a thought exercise / experiment that I'm in no way advocating, for an even more black magic trick, depending on whether the following exist on your engine, one could paint the sprites as GUI images, and use pixels shaders and the stencil buffer to "crop out" the parts that would be hidden by geometry. That is, level elements would write their depth to the stencil, then character sprites' pixels would check against the stencil to decide if they're painted or not.



Again in Unity (sorry) there's a flag you can set to pixel shaders to make them render in pixel perfect mode. If you look at my game's pics above, you'll realize that although every sprite is pixel perfect, pixels of different objects aren't perfectly aligned. This is because in my game, movement and positions are also float-based (that's how it is in Unity, I don't think you can opt out of that), and I don't "clamp" coordinates of moving objects to pixels, either (this has the advantage that movement / scroll feels smoother).



Yeah, I admit I forgot about the 3D perspective (which is unforgivable considering a lot of the previous conversation and images revolved around turning it on and off). For a game where keeping the camera zoom fixed and having sprites appear at the same size regardless off camera distance (e.g. a game that has not much Z distance), it might work well. I have no examples in mind, though... which itself might make the idea suspect :D. If the 3D aspect and zoom are important like in this case, then yeah, disregard all I said about pixel perfect.

You still need a scaling method that doesn't destroy your art, though. I think you'll be OK as long as you use the same scaling method for your character as you used for the monsters. If it's not trying your patience, could you post how it looks using that scaling method for the main character?
I'm using Godot engine.

I don't know if there's some pixel perfect flag but i experimented a little and i can get a pixel perfect look in orthographic mode if one of the screen dimensions is a multiple of 64(my number of pixels per textel), that way i can use some int values for the FOV resulting in int scaling for pixels, for the other cases i still have to see.

About your "madness", if i understand it correctly you are suggesting to just stamp the sprites, but sprites are affected by lights and produce and receive shadows, so they need to "stay" inside the scene.

About the filter... sorry but i won't undergo my poor sprites to that lol.

That said some precisations:
-all that applies to the orthographic projection(the 2d-like one), in the perspective projection there will always be some deformation(unless i keep the character always at the exact same distance from the camera, i'm definitively not a fan of this solution but i guess i'll consider it) but all the images i posted come from a 1024x600 window, so low resolution hence deformations are big and evident, on a 1080p screen deformations, while still present, aren't as evident.
-i'm still veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery early in the development and i'm still experimenting things, so i'm not doing refinements and small things... At this point you may ask: "if it's so early in the development then why you are already doing trivial optional things like 2d-like and retro looks?" Well, because most of the time i code things that don't have an evident impact on the game or work on assets that aren't still ready to be in the game and so on, so sometimes i need some visual "gratification". :\
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I really need to subscribe to this thread rather than pop in once in a while and realize I have a crazy backlog to reply to. :D

Thanks for the tips, guys. I guess turn based combat could work If I follow Weltall's advice of making it superfast. My plan is to make combat "optional" if the player doesnt want to do it, as it would be limited to specific areas of the game world, like ruins and a forest, so if the player wants combat to get itens he or she could sell instead of farming, the would actually have to seek it in those areas.

Without going quite literally to the extreme of that game, why don't you look a bit into Half Minute Hero for inspiration on superfast / optional combat?

Yes, although nothing is really complete yet. For example everything I made for that town is in this screenshot. There is nothing more yet. And if look closely the NPCs running around are the main party characters. I've still got a lot of work to do!

That's still crazy beautiful for the work of a single person over a couple of years. Getting strong Chrono vibes and frankly I can't think of much higher praise.

As a rule it not good to be have a character looking over they shoulder make them look shady and shifty, but love the style.

Yeah, I was going to say that that character portrait may be the only thing I didn't like, the eyes look odd / derpy to me. As a general rule character portraits should be, well, portraits, like police mugshots; artwork with dynamic poses is best used for other purposes.

A bit of an off topic question, for the expert programmers. Im starting Information Systems in college, and also starting game development on Game Maker Studo 2, so programming is still very new to me. Im following tutorials, and such, but something is bothering me a bit. Currently Im starting data structures, and the number of functions and syntaxes are growing exponentially for me to remember. The question is: through trial and repetition, you guys eventually start remembering all the functions and parameters? Or is kinda normal going after the documentation for every single thing?

I have zero memory and often can't remember the parameters for my own functions; you absolutely need not memorize any of that because any decent IDE has autocompletion and contextual help where typing a dot after an object displays a list with the functions it has, and typing a parenthesis after a function name displays all its parameters. In most IDEs you can also invoke it with ctrl+space after typing a few letters to see what objects / functions match those letters. So basically absolutely don't worry about memorizing anything, and just focus on learning what they're used for what and the differences between each structure type are.

Also you might want to check my post a few pages ago about the amazing Coursera / University of Michigan game dev courses. It's what I used to get started with Unity and they're fantastic.

I was thinking something along the lines of:
Hit % = 200 - ((atkAccuracy / defSpeed )* 100) but it seems extremely silly. I'm sure there's an easier and more intelligent way to do it, I just can't put the finger on it.

That formula seems wrong: besides the potential zero divide, unless my math is wrong, the hit chance is lower at higher accuracy and higher at higher speed of the target. I'm assuming you meant to do the division in reverse, but even so it still has issues (anyone with more accuracy than the target's speed has 100% to hit, for example).

Dividing accuracy by target evade seems intuitive but the issue is that it makes actual chance to hit fluctuate wildly at low levels (when players and enemies have 1-10 accuracy), then become almost fixed later on when everyone is in the higher range (80-100). For this reason some games simply substract them instead: the simpler solution is sometimes the best. How about this?
Hit% = 80% + (Acc - Dodge)
This makes accuracy and dodge a race that's always meaningful to stay ahead of by a few points. You can cap it between 0% and 100%, or you could use 1% and 99% (or 5% and 95%, or anything else) to always provide a chance, however small, for attacks to miss or hit.

Damage calculation also should stay rather simple. I'm going with:
Damage = (Power *2 + SpellPower) - Defense
I need to test this out a lot of course, but I'm thinking of using spell power ranges from 5 to 999.

Interestingly if I understood correctly (that SpellPower is a fixed atttibute of the specific spell), in this case I would do the opposite, i.e. multiply the character's power and the spell's power. If a character's spells do 2 and 10 damage, it makes sense that the character levels up and the first spell does 4, the second does 20, not 12. In fact as you level up powerful spells would become comparatively weaker, especially per MP.

What do you guys think? Would really appreciate some input from you :)

I love all things math-related so this was fun, I'll be glad to give more opinions on anything. :)

So, this may sound a bit silly, but I just finished my first script, to generate a "crop" from an object list when pressing a mouse buttom. So happy, hahaha. That marks my second week in game development!

giphy.gif

That's pretty cool, reminds me of one of the uses of the celestial brush in Okami. :)

I'm using Godot engine.

I don't know if there's some pixel perfect flag but i experimented a little and i can get a pixel perfect look in orthographic mode if one of the screen dimensions is a multiple of 64(my number of pixels per textel), that way i can use some int values for the FOV resulting in int scaling for pixels, for the other cases i still have to see.

That sounds promising, care to share a screenshot? It's a shame this solution only works in ortographic; the problem is perspective... I keep thinking about it.

About your "madness", if i understand it correctly you are suggesting to just stamp the sprites, but sprites are affected by lights and produce and receive shadows, so they need to "stay" inside the scene.

Of course, you're right. I don't shade my sprites (actively disable shading) to stay faithful to the arcade look, but your case is very different. It would have been a pretty crazy "solution" in any case, but yeah, you got the gist of how it'd work.

About the filter... sorry but i won't undergo my poor sprites to that lol.

You don't think the monster there looks at least better integrated / less "corrupted" than the main character? You don't need to do such extreme filtering but I personally think at least some filtering is better than having some pixels take one screen pixel and others taking four... :/

That said some precisations:
-all that applies to the orthographic projection(the 2d-like one), in the perspective projection there will always be some deformation(unless i keep the character always at the exact same distance from the camera, i'm definitively not a fan of this solution but i guess i'll consider it) but all the images i posted come from a 1024x600 window, so low resolution hence deformations are big and evident, on a 1080p screen deformations, while still present, aren't as evident.

That's also a good point. It should also depend heavily on your original sprites' resolution; I think there's a "sour spot" where deformation would be most obvious, and unfortunately your screenshot sprite / screen resolution ratios landed right there. With higher resolution sprites you wouldn't notice their individual pixels: with lower resolution sprites, their pixels would be so big that each individual one would barely get deformated.

-i'm still veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery early in the development and i'm still experimenting things, so i'm not doing refinements and small things... At this point you may ask: "if it's so early in the development then why you are already doing trivial optional things like 2d-like and retro looks?" Well, because most of the time i code things that don't have an evident impact on the game or work on assets that aren't still ready to be in the game and so on, so sometimes i need some visual "gratification". :\

I don't think anyone in this thread would ask anyone else why they're doing something before something else, we're all doing stuff in weird order as we feel like doing them. :D My only advice is to try to have a fully working slice of the game as soon as possible; a prototype if you will. This is extremely useful both for checking what is fun and what isn't before you're too far committed to your design to change anything, and also to show the game to people (and even let them play them for feedback). Hell, use placeholder / ripped assets if you have to. You seem right on track with that already, so you're good!
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
-i'm still veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery early in the development and i'm still experimenting things, so i'm not doing refinements and small things... At this point you may ask: "if it's so early in the development then why you are already doing trivial optional things like 2d-like and retro looks?" Well, because most of the time i code things that don't have an evident impact on the game or work on assets that aren't still ready to be in the game and so on, so sometimes i need some visual "gratification". :\
This is extremely understandable and relatable. Obviously everyone's going to operate a bit differently here, but I personally think that aesthetic touches feed VERY deeply into how fun an end experience is. I'm not doing production assets first and mechanics last, but I do spend a bit of time on "first-draft" assets to get cool visuals/animation/sound effects etc into the game and that usually winds up helping my motivation a ton.
 

DaveB

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,513
New Hampshire, USA
A bit of an off topic question, for the expert programmers. Im starting Information Systems in college, and also starting game development on Game Maker Studo 2, so programming is still very new to me. Im following tutorials, and such, but something is bothering me a bit. Currently Im starting data structures, and the number of functions and syntaxes are growing exponentially for me to remember. The question is: through trial and repetition, you guys eventually start remembering all the functions and parameters? Or is kinda normal going after the documentation for every single thing?
If it wasn't for code completion in my IDE (Xcode for Mac), I probably wouldn't remember a good portion of the various framework's functions and their parameter lists. When you write certain function calls enough, they're inevitably going to "stick" and you won't need reference materials, but I wouldn't get discouraged by having to look stuff up a lot when you're starting out. Hell, I'm writing my own game engine right now and I am frequently opening up header files to remind myself what parameters the methods need; I don't have them doc'ed in a way that Xcode will automatically provide completion.

You're either brave or crazy for choosing game dev as a way to cut your teeth on programming though. My first experience with programming was BASIC on a TI-83 Graphing Calculator, and later down the line, Perl and eventually PHP. These days I'm working mainly in Objective-C/Swift for my job, and C++ for my game engine outside of work.
 

Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,849
The Hundred Acre Wood
EDIT: I didnt saw the answers! thanks, guys. Yeah, I am currently trying to wrap my head around how exactly the functions work before trying to memorize the sintaxes for it. Trying to build a "Library" of tools in my head so I can use them easily in the future.

Here's what you should focus on memorizing:

CODING TOOLS
- The concept of what object-oriented means
- The types of loops that exist and when/why to use them (for loops, while loops)
- Conceptual difference between arrays, lists, and stacks and when/why to use them

CODING RULES
- Order of math operations
- Equation and assignment operators
- How variable scope works (global vs local)

If you have those down you should be good in pretty much any language.
 

Landford

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,678
Wow, thanks a lot for all the answers, guys. You have no idea how awesome it is to receive such good advice. Im using gml at home while Im learning Java at college, so it helps me a lot to fixate the functions in my head and try to picture more clearly its applications, since College is a lot more theoretical. So far its working, doing my classes and watching GML tutorials while at home. Ill do my best to follow your tips!

EDIT: After 12 hours straight looking at code and following tutorials, I was able to set the crops to be chosen with the mouse wheel, snapping to a grid, and only be plantable in a specific tileset. Also, sorry for crowding the thread by posting too much, hahahaha

giphy.gif
 
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Kwigo

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,025
Thank you, that was very helpful !

So as I'm starting my project, I realized that I'm just not as advanced yet with my programming skills to build everything from scratch using only java.
What would be the best engine for a 2D RPG?
I own Game Maker 2 through humble bundle and I don't want to use RPG Maker since this project is a way to increase my programming skills.
Just wondering if you folks had better alternatives. Thanks!
 

K Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
278
This week I finally did the final bit of optimisation for the existing scenes so its playable on Xbox One. This part is the House HUB.

3PjbwfG.gif




Took me a while to get here but its now complete which means I can now get back to creating new content for the rest of the game. Now with the new knowledge on the limitations and better practices, the rest of the new content should be more straight forward.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Here's what you should focus on memorizing:

CODING TOOLS
- The concept of what object-oriented means
- The types of loops that exist and when/why to use them (for loops, while loops)
- Conceptual difference between arrays, lists, and stacks and when/why to use them

CODING RULES
- Order of math operations
- Equation and assignment operators
- How variable scope works (global vs local)

If you have those down you should be good in pretty much any language.

Yep. Then the next level stuff is learning about best practices and design patterns; there's an entire world of knowledge there.

Also, sorry for crowding the thread by posting too much, hahahaha

You are 100% not doing that, don't worry! Keep it coming!

Thank you, that was very helpful !

So as I'm starting my project, I realized that I'm just not as advanced yet with my programming skills to build everything from scratch using only java.
What would be the best engine for a 2D RPG?
I own Game Maker 2 through humble bundle and I don't want to use RPG Maker since this project is a way to increase my programming skills.
Just wondering if you folks had better alternatives. Thanks!

This is an extremely personal choice and you're going to get a different answer from everone in this thread. My tips would be:

1) Choose according to where in the scale of generality vs specificity you want to be. For a 2D RPG the most specific choice would be RPG Maker (specifically for 2D RPGs), then Game Maker (for 2D games), then something like Unity or Unreal (for any kind of game). The more general your choice, the more applicable your learning will be to other fields; e.g. Unity uses C# which is used for tons of commercial, non-gaming projects. I personally chose Unity because of its high portability to any platform, and because of the amazing online Coursera / University of Michigan courses I mentioned a few pages back.

2) If this is your first game, don't dive into your dream game right off the bat. Consider making a clone of a simple, existing game like Tetris of Pac-Man as a warm up / test of your skills. Again, the Coursera courses have you create a simple 2D platformer and a couple even simpler 3D games during them: do NOT underestimate how useful this is in terms of what you'll learn and the confidence boost it will give you.

3) Even when you start on your actual game, scope the hell down. There are many reasons for this:
a) You will grossly underestimate how much your game is going to take. What you estimate in months will balloon into years. This is a fact of game development that is best assumed early.
b) As you develop you will naturally want to include more things you hadn't thought before (feature creep). That is, your scope will grow organically as you develop, and again there's nothing you can do about it. The smaller scope you begin with, the more leeway you'll have to add that fantastic idea for a mechanic that will make your game 200% better.

4) As I mentioned before, try to have a fully playable slice of your game as soon as possible (if you're making an RPG, which is kind of a tall order for a first game, make a room with some dialogue and a single encounter). This is again crucial for many reasons:
a) The sooner you have your systems in place and see how they interact, the earlier you can make changes without impacting the rest of your game.
b) The earlier you have something for others to play, the earlier you can start collecting feedback. In my opinion feedback is a good game's lifeblood, especially if you're developing on your own. You will learn to value it like gold. :D
c) Again, confidence boost. Working on all your party's characters sprites without knowing if you'll be able to make an actual game engine to bring them to live is going to crush you with uncertainty.

Ths turned out way longer than I intended and somewhat off-topic, sorry. :D
 

Kwigo

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,025
Ths turned out way longer than I intended and somewhat off-topic, sorry. :D
This was exactly what I needed!
I'll use Unity (which I saw got a fancy tileset thingy) and follow the coursera you mentioned as a start.
Regarding the playable slice, that's what I was planning, at least to test out interactions and the maths behind the battle system.

The scale of my project is already heavy as hell, guess it's time to strip it down to the core essentials :)
 

OllyOllyBennett

BizDev & PR at Cardboard Sword
Verified
Nov 10, 2017
40
North East, UK
Any UK (or others) devs here going to be at EGX Rezzed? If so, I'll be exhibiting The Siege and the Sandfox there. Would be cool to say hi and come see your games too.

https://www.egx.net/rezzed/2018/show-floor

Hi everyone, eternal lurker of this thread here.
Finally I have something to show from my game The Grand Grimoire! I've been slowly working on it for about 2 years and just started my website, Twitter and Facebook. The game is still in very early development.

It is a 2D RPG with a turn based battle system. There are no random encounters and no separate battle screen. This allows for the player to use the environment to his advantage, either in the midst of the fight or in preparation for it. Additionally to fighting with your weapons or magic you can use Mechs (or rather Mechanical Armors - Still need a name for them) and even with your customizable airship. It's a very traditional RPG heavy influenced by SNES and PSX JRPGs combined with modern gamedesign.

tgg_01.png
tgg_02.png

tgg_05.png

tgg_03.png
tgg_04.png


And some gifs to look at in motion!





Finally no more lurking :D

This looks great, and for only one person over two years! Keep up the good work.
 

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,871
Thank you, that was very helpful !

So as I'm starting my project, I realized that I'm just not as advanced yet with my programming skills to build everything from scratch using only java.
What would be the best engine for a 2D RPG?
I own Game Maker 2 through humble bundle and I don't want to use RPG Maker since this project is a way to increase my programming skills.
Just wondering if you folks had better alternatives. Thanks!

Having built a game in Java for a class, definitely don't reccomend it starting out. Unity will probably be the best choice if you want to gain skills coding. Java and C# feel pretty similar so the jump isn't bad.
 

DaveB

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,513
New Hampshire, USA
Thank you, that was very helpful !

So as I'm starting my project, I realized that I'm just not as advanced yet with my programming skills to build everything from scratch using only java.
What would be the best engine for a 2D RPG?
I own Game Maker 2 through humble bundle and I don't want to use RPG Maker since this project is a way to increase my programming skills.
Just wondering if you folks had better alternatives. Thanks!
An RPG feels like a tremendous undertaking for working on your programming skills. If you want my opinion, I'd start smaller scale. Do something like a basic card game (MEMORY) or the quintessential first game, Breakout.

If you're dead set on throwing yourself into the deep end, then as others have said, Unity is a good avenue. IIRC, it includes a handful of pre-configured sample games, so maybe you could find one of those and modify it to something of your choosing. That'd give you the chance to kind of wrap your head around the concepts by applying changes to little bits and getting a feel for how everything is tied together.

BUT, keep in mind that Unity does all of the heavy lifting for you. You're essentially just adding your own stuff to a compiled program. If your goal is to build a true understanding of game programming, Unity's not going to do that.
 

Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,849
The Hundred Acre Wood
Thank you, that was very helpful !

So as I'm starting my project, I realized that I'm just not as advanced yet with my programming skills to build everything from scratch using only java.
What would be the best engine for a 2D RPG?
I own Game Maker 2 through humble bundle and I don't want to use RPG Maker since this project is a way to increase my programming skills.
Just wondering if you folks had better alternatives. Thanks!

Weltall gave you great advice and I'm not going to contradict him on anything, just add my two cents.

1. In your situation I'd recommend using Gamemaker because it will ease you into required programming at a nicer curve than Unity will.

2. Scale down. Read what Weltall said again and again. Reduce your scope aggressively, down to literally the minimum requirements to what makes your game unique or important to you. If your core aspiration is to tell a story, maybe you don't need a full on Final Fantasy style battle system with 50 stats. Instead, look at the first couple Ys games, which are fantastic games where battling is literally just bumping into enemies on the regular map. There's a surprising amount of depth you can get Fromm even the most basic systems.

3. Scale down. I know I'm repeating myself but this is THAT important.

4. Don't reinvent the wheel. If somebody has written a cool system you can plug in to your game, use it! Especially if it's open-source, as then you can read their code and learn a ton from it, and then modify it for your purposes while saving you a ton of time.

5. Scale down.

Hope this helps!
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Weltall gave you great advice and I'm not going to contradict him on anything, just add my two cents.

1. In your situation I'd recommend using Gamemaker because it will ease you into required programming at a nicer curve than Unity will.

2. Scale down. Read what Weltall said again and again. Reduce your scope aggressively, down to literally the minimum requirements to what makes your game unique or important to you. If your core aspiration is to tell a story, maybe you don't need a full on Final Fantasy style battle system with 50 stats. Instead, look at the first couple Ys games, which are fantastic games where battling is literally just bumping into enemies on the regular map. There's a surprising amount of depth you can get Fromm even the most basic systems.

3. Scale down. I know I'm repeating myself but this is THAT important.

4. Don't reinvent the wheel. If somebody has written a cool system you can plug in to your game, use it! Especially if it's open-source, as then you can read their code and learn a ton from it, and then modify it for your purposes while saving you a ton of time.

5. Scale down.

Hope this helps!

The hilarious thing is that I would have stressed "scale down" more. I'm not even joking. That sentence about your project's scale being "heavy as hell" nearly deafened me with the blaring sirens it triggered. It's a guaranteed recipe for giving up on your project halfway through after wasting years with nothing to show for it.

Story time: it is said that in software development, to estimate a project's duration, first calculate it, then turn it into the next time unit and add two: so, if a project seems like it will take two weeks, it will actually take four months. Well, in 20 years of non-gaming development I'm consistently the only one able to more or less correctly estimate (and even overestimate) project times (by virtue of being a ridiculous pessimist), to the initial disbelief, eventual "you were right" of my work associates. I knew going into game development that it has even more of a tendency to spiral out of control, so I even adjusted accordingly. And even then, I'm a year and two months into a game I estimated to take about ten months, and I don't think I'm halfway done by a long shot.

My point is: you will ridiculously underestimate how long it takes to make your game. You will do so even after all we're repeating over and over right now. You will even if you take this very paragraph into account. Aim for something that you feel you will complete in a couple of months: that way you'll have a chance to seeing it done in your lifetime.

I also second Pooh's suggestion of using Game Maker or even RPG Maker to start; they will save you a lot of headaches, especially if you're going for a retro / pixel aesthetic. The flexibility of open ended systems like Unity ends up working against them for simpler games if you want them to be pixel-perfect (see the discussion above). I've never used Game Maker but you can't go wrong with an engine that can make stuff like Spelunky and Maldita Castilla. I sometimes wonder if I should have gone with that for my own game...
 

2+2=5

Member
Oct 29, 2017
971
That sounds promising, care to share a screenshot? It's a shame this solution only works in ortographic; the problem is perspective... I keep thinking about it.

Of course, you're right. I don't shade my sprites (actively disable shading) to stay faithful to the arcade look, but your case is very different. It would have been a pretty crazy "solution" in any case, but yeah, you got the gist of how it'd work.

You don't think the monster there looks at least better integrated / less "corrupted" than the main character? You don't need to do such extreme filtering but I personally think at least some filtering is better than having some pixels take one screen pixel and others taking four... :/

That's also a good point. It should also depend heavily on your original sprites' resolution; I think there's a "sour spot" where deformation would be most obvious, and unfortunately your screenshot sprite / screen resolution ratios landed right there. With higher resolution sprites you wouldn't notice their individual pixels: with lower resolution sprites, their pixels would be so big that each individual one would barely get deformated.

I don't think anyone in this thread would ask anyone else why they're doing something before something else, we're all doing stuff in weird order as we feel like doing them. :D My only advice is to try to have a fully working slice of the game as soon as possible; a prototype if you will. This is extremely useful both for checking what is fun and what isn't before you're too far committed to your design to change anything, and also to show the game to people (and even let them play them for feedback). Hell, use placeholder / ripped assets if you have to. You seem right on track with that already, so you're good!
In the meantime i made some changes at the camera angle and position and the semi-billboard function so now it's a little different, this is how it looks at 1080p, ortho and persp:
Untitled.png


This is extremely understandable and relatable. Obviously everyone's going to operate a bit differently here, but I personally think that aesthetic touches feed VERY deeply into how fun an end experience is. I'm not doing production assets first and mechanics last, but I do spend a bit of time on "first-draft" assets to get cool visuals/animation/sound effects etc into the game and that usually winds up helping my motivation a ton.
I think i'll do the same :)
 

Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,849
The Hundred Acre Wood
The hilarious thing is that I would have stressed "scale down" more. I'm not even joking. That sentence about your project's scale being "heavy as hell" nearly deafened me with the blaring sirens it triggered. It's a guaranteed recipe for giving up on your project halfway through after wasting years with nothing to show for it.

Story time: it is said that in software development, to estimate a project's duration, first calculate it, then turn it into the next time unit and add two: so, if a project seems like it will take two weeks, it will actually take four months. Well, in 20 years of non-gaming development I'm consistently the only one able to more or less correctly estimate (and even overestimate) project times (by virtue of being a ridiculous pessimist), to the initial disbelief, eventual "you were right" of my work associates. I knew going into game development that it has even more of a tendency to spiral out of control, so I even adjusted accordingly. And even then, I'm a year and two months into a game I estimated to take about ten months, and I don't think I'm halfway done by a long shot.

My point is: you will ridiculously underestimate how long it takes to make your game. You will do so even after all we're repeating over and over right now. You will even if you take this very paragraph into account. Aim for something that you feel you will complete in a couple of months: that way you'll have a chance to seeing it done in your lifetime.

I also second Pooh's suggestion of using Game Maker or even RPG Maker to start; they will save you a lot of headaches, especially if you're going for a retro / pixel aesthetic. The flexibility of open ended systems like Unity ends up working against them for simpler games if you want them to be pixel-perfect (see the discussion above). I've never used Game Maker but you can't go wrong with an engine that can make stuff like Spelunky and Maldita Castilla. I sometimes wonder if I should have gone with that for my own game...

I was gonna put "SCALE DOWN" in bold and colors and all that stuff but I wrote it on my phone and didn't want to deal with it :P

That's a great way to estimate a project duration, for sure. I always did the x4 version but I think it's probably more accurate to do it your way.

And I do the same thing about wondering if I should've used GameMaker XD But I wanted to do 3D voxels and that kind of made the decision for me.
 

AbysmallyTall

Member
Oct 26, 2017
211
Annapolis, MD, USA

I remember spotting this for a post I put under my steam filtering project. (my friend and I spend an ~ 1 hour per day filtering the new releases since Valve refuses to, cuts into my game playing (not game dev) time, but it's fun and informative for me) https://twitter.com/NotableReleases/status/978688173319557120

If so, I'll be exhibiting The Siege and the Sandfox there. Would be cool to say hi and come see your games too.

I won't be there, but I just wanted to mention that I'm getting very excited for your game.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
In the meantime i made some changes at the camera angle and position and the semi-billboard function so now it's a little different, this is how it looks at 1080p, ortho and persp:
Untitled.png

Wow, that looks great in both of them. Now you're talking!

Mind if I share a tip that I took an embarrassingly long time to figure out? (it might be obvious to you but you just haven't gotten around to it; if so, disregard). Strategically placed darker pixels help make diagonal surfaces that are in contact with a hard / black edge look a lot smoother. Like this:

651NVea.gif

I was gonna put "SCALE DOWN" in bold and colors and all that stuff but I wrote it on my phone and didn't want to deal with it :P

That's a great way to estimate a project duration, for sure. I always did the x4 version but I think it's probably more accurate to do it your way.

Actually I quoted it wrongly from memory, it's multiply by two, then convert to the next time unit. Since the typically given example is 2 weeks -> 4 months, either would result in the same, which I guess is why I remembered wrong. :)
http://www.anvari.org/fortune/Laws/...-estimate-the-time-it-takes-to-do-a-task.html

And I do the same thing about wondering if I should've used GameMaker XD But I wanted to do 3D voxels and that kind of made the decision for me.

Yeah, if you intend to use 3D in any way, shape or form, Unity or Unreal seem like the ways to go.

I guess I should share a bit too. This is what I've been working on all week... a freaking menu (for the new module system I'm implementing). Today I implemented confirmation menus. Since Unity has no support at all for multiplayer menus, I have to code everything by hand; quite tedious, but I'm nearly done.

y6Il31K.png
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,290
Minnesota
I remember spotting this for a post I put under my steam filtering project. (my friend and I spend an ~ 1 hour per day filtering the new releases since Valve refuses to, cuts into my game playing (not game dev) time, but it's fun and informative for me) https://twitter.com/NotableReleases/status/978688173319557120
Saw the tweet! Much appreciated.

I'm learning that Valve sucks and Steam is pretty awful and it's all a bucket of shite.

Gonna get a jump on trying for Switch this weekend.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Saw the tweet! Much appreciated.

I'm learning that Valve sucks and Steam is pretty awful and it's all a bucket of shite.

Could you elaborate? I think a lot of people here would love to hear about your experience, considering many may be in your situation in the future (including myself). Lackluster sales? Lack of front page visibility? Support issues?
 

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,871
Finally actually building areas that will be in the game, rather than doing something in a test room. I'm actually super happy about that man. Spent quite a bit today doing first pass tilesets and something I will interact with in that room.
c81153b7311d85c6e75d73329d9e1866.gif


Art is not final( I'm going to be saying that a lot) but that dialogue line sure is.
 

Finjitzu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
119
SK Canada
Does anyone know if IAPs on IOS are allowed to happen with early-access promo codes for the game?

I tested all my IAPs in the TestFlight environment and they worked fine. But now, after everything is approved for release, I tried using a promo code on the GFs phone and the game can't connect to the store.
 

DaveB

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,513
New Hampshire, USA
Does anyone know if IAPs on IOS are allowed to happen with early-access promo codes for the game?

I tested all my IAPs in the TestFlight environment and they worked fine. But now, after everything is approved for release, I tried using a promo code on the GFs phone and the game can't connect to the store.
I don't know if I totally understand the scenario, but if the App isn't ready for sale on the App Store, then no, the IAPs wouldn't work with a real App Store account.
 

Finjitzu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
119
SK Canada
I don't know if I totally understand the scenario, but if the App isn't ready for sale on the App Store, then no, the IAPs wouldn't work with a real App Store account.

Thanks for the reply.

The game is at Pending Developer Release state, and the IAPs are all in the Approved state. When I tried a promo code to try it outside the Testflight environment, a real use case, the IAPs aren't loading. Even though they worked fine in the TestFlight env.
 

Finjitzu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
119
SK Canada
It needs to be "Ready for Sale" for promo codes to work.

While your app is in the "Pending Developer Release" state, you can give out promotional codes, continue TestFlight Beta Testing, or reject the release and submit a new build. Whichever of these you choose, we have to process your app before it's made available on the App Store. While your app is in the "Processing for App Store" state, you can't get new promotional codes, invite new testers, or reject your app.

Is "Ready for Sale" the state between Pending Developer Release and it being available on the AppStore?

Looks like I found my answer:

Promo codes can only be tested in the production store. Only the production store recoginzes the redeemed promo codes. What you can do -

Submit your app for App Review.

Set the release date of the App sometime in the future so that once App Review approves the app, it's not avaialble to the general user. However, it will still work with promo codes

Use an app promo code to install the app

Use the in app promo code. (BTW, immediately after app review approval, the in app identifiers may not be validated using the SKProductsRequest command. Give things 48 hours for the in app purchase identifiers to be activated on the store.)
 
Last edited:
Oct 29, 2017
5,290
Minnesota
Could you elaborate? I think a lot of people here would love to hear about your experience, considering many may be in your situation in the future (including myself). Lackluster sales? Lack of front page visibility? Support issues?
Pretty much all of the above. Well, support's been fine but we haven't needed it. Valve have a lot of tutorial stuff available on that end.

But like, our game released the 27th alongside three pages worth of other stuff. Most of it was DLC and rando shite uploaded in bulk, but it drove ours way down as far as visibility goes. Store pages, or at least mine, are more filtered by "most popular" and "best selling" instead of "new" so I don't know if our game is popping up anywhere. I mean hell, even if I type in the name in the search bar I don't always go to it. It'll autocomplete with something else that maybe has the word "land" in the title.

Steam's bandaid fix is the curator connect, where users become curators and review games for free and tell people if they're good or not. I like that, I've submitted mine to curators, but the relationship doesn't feel 50:50. No one has to play it, and even if they do, they don't have to review it. It's a bandaid fix to quality control, where we the buyers have to QA the product with our own money.

I had hoped sheer numbers would help, because we really don't need to sell that many copies to break even, but with little exposure right now (waiting on reviews, twitch streamers, and youtubers), it really means no sales.

I'm also still salty at Valve because we did get greenlit once upon a time, but the change in how this works killed that status, so I had to fork over another $100 to get our game up. I emailed them to try and explain myself, but a robot told me no. Valve is almost all robots unless you have specific emails to specific people. I do, but those point me to videos and tutorial work.
 

Slixshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
701
So today was my first time drawing pixel art ever and same with drawing sprite animations.. here's what I got!

 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,622
Yes, although nothing is really complete yet. For example everything I made for that town is in this screenshot. There is nothing more yet. And if look closely the NPCs running around are the main party characters. I've still got a lot of work to do!

Man see stuff like this makes me so happy to hear but I always get stuck on everything. Like you I'm making a 2D JRPG-esque game... and it's like I can program the stuff but I want it to look good as I'm programming and therefore I get into loops where nothing gets done as a result of that. I begin with making a bunch of progress and then fall so quickly. I've even downscaled it in the sense of not wanting to make some massive game and yet progress still stalls. :(
 

DaveB

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,513
New Hampshire, USA
Is "Ready for Sale" the state between Pending Developer Release and it being available on the AppStore?

Looks like I found my answer:
Sorry, was AFK for a bit. "Ready for Sale" is the last stop. "Processing for App Store" is the step that happens before it goes up on the App Store. The most basic sequence of states for your App goes like this:

- Preparing Submission
- Waiting for Review
- In Review
- Pending Developer Release - If you don't mark it to be made available immediately
- Processing for App Store
- Ready for Sale

There is also "Developer Rejected" which is when you change your mind and choose to pull it out of the review queue, or the regular rejection where Apple Review team kicks it back to you.
 

WishyWaters

Member
Oct 26, 2017
94
Finally putting together a very early level to shake out the problems. It's all tiles put together in Tiled except for the door, the dude, and the rat. We're hoping to iron out kinks in our workflow and find any big tiling problems. I am hesitant to share because I immediately see some ugly stuff now, that I didn't see when putting it together. This is one of my first few tilemaps so I have some learning to do.

Let me know what you think, any feedback is appreciated, even the harsh kind.

9ehWI9V.png


OgKrt3D.png


4NxTHqq.png
 

Finjitzu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
119
SK Canada
Sorry, was AFK for a bit. "Ready for Sale" is the last stop. "Processing for App Store" is the step that happens before it goes up on the App Store. The most basic sequence of states for your App goes like this:

- Preparing Submission
- Waiting for Review
- In Review
- Pending Developer Release - If you don't mark it to be made available immediately
- Processing for App Store
- Ready for Sale

There is also "Developer Rejected" which is when you change your mind and choose to pull it out of the review queue, or the regular rejection where Apple Review team kicks it back to you.

Fuck I accidentally released it...
 

Slixshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
701
Ok! I thought that it needed a little more work and now I am super happy with the outcome. BTW, Hyper Light Drifter is one of my fave games and I'm going for that art style for my own game.



Really happy with how this turned out. Day 1 of pixel art a success!
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Pretty much all of the above. Well, support's been fine but we haven't needed it. Valve have a lot of tutorial stuff available on that end.

But like, our game released the 27th alongside three pages worth of other stuff. Most of it was DLC and rando shite uploaded in bulk, but it drove ours way down as far as visibility goes. Store pages, or at least mine, are more filtered by "most popular" and "best selling" instead of "new" so I don't know if our game is popping up anywhere. I mean hell, even if I type in the name in the search bar I don't always go to it. It'll autocomplete with something else that maybe has the word "land" in the title.

Steam's bandaid fix is the curator connect, where users become curators and review games for free and tell people if they're good or not. I like that, I've submitted mine to curators, but the relationship doesn't feel 50:50. No one has to play it, and even if they do, they don't have to review it. It's a bandaid fix to quality control, where we the buyers have to QA the product with our own money.

I had hoped sheer numbers would help, because we really don't need to sell that many copies to break even, but with little exposure right now (waiting on reviews, twitch streamers, and youtubers), it really means no sales.

I'm also still salty at Valve because we did get greenlit once upon a time, but the change in how this works killed that status, so I had to fork over another $100 to get our game up. I emailed them to try and explain myself, but a robot told me no. Valve is almost all robots unless you have specific emails to specific people. I do, but those point me to videos and tutorial work.

It's such a catch-22 when games only become visible when curators recommend them, but curators can't even get to review games if they aren't visible to them. :( Also it sucks that being greenlit doesn't spare you from the $100 fee, I didn't know it worked that way.

I'm assuming you won't want to share specific numbers, but in case you have nothing against it, how many copies did you need to sell to break even, and how many have you sold thus far? Nobody ever discloses these numbers and it'd be great to know what ballpark to expect and plan for.
 
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