Does Twin Peaks: The Return get better?

CoinStarDX said:

I'll get in semi early to say the episode 8 circle jerk is overblown. It's interesting from a cinematography angle or whatever, but it's incredibly boring to watch and there's just absolutely no value to me in "crazy things" happening for the sake of it. The last little part of the episode is fantastic though, and the pure atmosphere actually comes through there. It's one of my favorite parts of the season.

I'm a huge fan of the original series (even season 2) and I think season 3 is great too, but it's not the first two seasons at all. That's fine, but if you're expecting more of that you're going to come out disappointed. Which people will say makes Lynch a genius, and you someone who just didn't get it.

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I was deeply moved by the entirety of episode 8 and my mind and heart was racing for most of the episode. I'm not being hyperbolic or buying into preconceived hype. I really felt while watching it that I was watching some sort of deep truth about our world and the nature of good and evil in an abstract art piece. For the many minutes where nothing narratively happened, I felt a lot going on inside of me. I didn't think it was crazy for the sake of it.

I think that there's just very little in television that's anything close to as adventurous as what you might see in fine art or in experimental film. I'd understand if someone doesn't like a painting that looks like this

but at the same time it should be understood that some people are moved by a painting like this if they take it in a certain way. Almost all television is realist, it's not a circlejerk to get excited about something that's for once a different type of experience. The reaction to it this show is like what you'd expect if you dropped that Richter painting into the 1800s - and I don't mean that it's somehow "better" or ahead of its time, it's just very different from everything else. For some people who watched it, perhaps their reaction was following a hype train, but I know that for many it was an honestly true emotional experience unlike anything else in the medium.

CoinStarDX said:

I'll get in semi early to say the episode 8 circle jerk is overblown. It's interesting from a cinematography angle or whatever, but it's incredibly boring to watch and there's just absolutely no value to me in "crazy things" happening for the sake of it. The last little part of the episode is fantastic though, and the pure atmosphere actually comes through there. It's one of my favorite parts of the season.

I'm a huge fan of the original series (even season 2) and I think season 3 is great too, but it's not the first two seasons at all. That's fine, but if you're expecting more of that you're going to come out disappointed. Which people will say makes Lynch a genius, and you someone who just didn't get it.

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Nah, Episode 8 is art. When I first got the blu-ray box set the first thing I did was re-watch it, and I was gripped the entire time. Even excised from the rest of the season, there's a sense of dread and terror that permeates through it.

It also manages to be an avant garde sequel to Eraserhead, while answering questions fans had about the lore of the series. I'd say its the episode that makes the most "sense" out of all of the season.

the scene where the giant lifts up and spawns that light with The Fireman playing made me weep openly the first time I saw it and I didn't know why

Episode 8 of the Return blew my mind more than any film I have seen in my life since I first saw 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Net_Wrecker said:

One of the best things I've ever had the pleasure of watching on TV. Nothing in 2017 was as good as Twin Peaks: The Return: Season 3 The Third, and I doubt I'll ever be as invested in another long form series as I was with it.

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ListeningGarden said:

Best 18 hours of television since 1991.

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Cheebo said:

In my entire life there has never been a film or movie that I truly will judge someone at a personal level based on if the like or dislike a piece of media.

Twin Peaks: The Return is the first piece of media to break that rule.

(P.S. the right answer is Twin Peaks: The Return is one of the most breathtaking and incredible seasons of television ever made)

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TheFireman said:

It's the best season of any television show ever made, and a useful tool for weeding out the plebeians from the patricians.

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Posts like this make me wonder if the people saying they like it actually like it, or if they're all just fucking with everyone.

I'm someone who likes Lynch's wankery and The Return was too much for me. It feels like he had the same issue Lucas had with the prequel trilogy, no one around him would tell him no.

8 blew my mind as I watched it live. No preconceptions or influence. It is just surreal and something triggers wonder while watching it.

Zero315 said:

Posts like this make me wonder if the people saying they like it actually like it, or if they're all just fucking with everyone.

I'm someone who likes Lynch's wankery and The Return was too much for me. It feels like he had the same issue Lucas had with the prequel trilogy, no one around him would tell him no.

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It got glowing reviews from many critics. People aren't just saying this.

Twin Peaks: The Return was pure art and some of the best television ever made. Haunting, epic, and mind altering.

I have been a Lynch fan for decades. I have seen every film of his. The Return is his best work of his career. Better than Blue Velvet. Better than Mulholland Drive. Better than Eraserhead. Better than Inland Empire.

Expect your expectations to be used against you while Lynch teases you with some of the most bizzare and interesting shit ever put on television. Even when the crazy shit doesn't "work" it's still entertaining imo.

It doesn't get better, but you have to ride it to the end

cervanky said:

I was deeply moved by the entirety of episode 8 and my mind and heart was racing for most of the episode. I'm not being hyperbolic or buying into preconceived hype. I really felt while watching it that I was watching some sort of deep truth about our world and the nature of good and evil in an abstract art piece. For the many minutes where nothing narratively happened, I felt a lot going on inside of me. I didn't think it was crazy for the sake of it.

I think that there's just very little in television that's anything close to as adventurous as what you might see in fine art or in experimental film. I'd understand if someone doesn't like a painting that looks like this

but at the same time it should be understood that some people are moved by a painting like this if they take it in a certain way. Almost all television is realist, it's not a circlejerk to get excited about something that's for once a different type of experience. The reaction to it this show is like what you'd expect if you dropped that Richter painting into the 1800s - and I don't mean that it's somehow "better" or ahead of its time, it's just very different from everything else. For some people who watched it, perhaps their reaction was following a hype train, but I know that for many it was an honestly true emotional experience unlike anything else in the medium.

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The thing is, I love abstract art and experimental media.
The problem with being experimental and abstract is you run the risk of it hitting Moreno with some people than others, and episode 8 of the return was a hard miss from me. That's okay, and it's okay to like it, but I keep getting told i just didn't get it, or can't appreciate the vision and a bunch of other things.
I got it, and what it was going for but I just dind't like it. It's okay that I didn't. It's okay that a lot of people did. I just know how the internet culture works and I hate that there's forever going to be a "hype train" or whatever you want to call it for Episode 8 of the return, and anyone that thinks it isn't good is going to unequivocally wrong, no exceptions.
That and the assertion i constantly see that Lynch WANTED you to hate it drives me insane. Lynch wasn't trolling people, he was creating a work of (mostly fantastic) art. He's not giggling like a mad man the way people act like he is when they see someone saying they didn't understand or like it.

Zero315 said:

Posts like this make me wonder if the people saying they like it actually like it, or if they're all just fucking with everyone.

I'm someone who likes Lynch's wankery and The Return was too much for me. It feels like he had the same issue Lucas had with the prequel trilogy, no one around him would tell him no.

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I don't say these things lightly. I've watched a lot of shows/movies- a lot of them good, a lot of them crap- but enough to know that when something grabs me on a visceral level the way so much of Twin Peaks S3 did, it's not a small thing, and I'm not just saying things to make other people who may not have connected with it feel crazy.

Inland Empire is David Lynch at peak nonsense, and it's terrible. Twin Peaks S3 is two artists throwing thier full creative weight into a late career behemoth, backed, indeed, by a network that did not tell them no, and it's frequently as brilliant as it is frustrating, gripping, bewildering, and haunting. It gave me numerous sequences that I'll likely never see replicated on a weekly cable show again, and yes Part 8 is incredible.

You didn't like it, and that's ok. Nobody is trolling you.

ya blew it

Zero315 said:

Posts like this make me wonder if the people saying they like it actually like it, or if they're all just fucking with everyone.

I'm someone who likes Lynch's wankery and The Return was too much for me. It feels like he had the same issue Lucas had with the prequel trilogy, no one around him would tell him no.

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Most of them come off as people afraid to admit the emperor has no clothes to me. That was certainly the case for many of the reviews of the show I read by television critics. Oh, and episode 8 was just as bad the rest of the season.

^ owned

I do remember only getting truly into it after episode 4. It's pretty amazing.

It is frustrating and opaque but watching it was always exciting and thrilling, all the way to the end. never seen anything quite like it and I missed watching it weekly as soon as it finished. super interesting show

I thought the first half was frustrating since it could have been cut short.

I feel like a tight 13 episode season would have worked much better. However, it does get interesting towards the end.

It's almost like a reverse season two?

NEXT STOP, WENDY'S

only problem i had was all the the side plot arcs that went absolutely nowhere. even by lynchian standards it just wasted your time with so much non sequitur stuff

but i always wanted a conclusion to TP and it delivered. yeah the ending was completely wtf but it wouldn't be twin peaks otherwise

ArmsofSleep said:

Small brain: Twin Peaks is bad, it's just weird pretentious garbage

Medium brain: The original series is good, just skip some season 2 episodes and the movie is sort of disappointing. Some parts of Season 3 are good

Large brain: The whole thing is worthwhile, some parts are just really frustrating

Galaxy brain: The Original series is great, Fire Walk With Me is the best Lynch film, The Return is the greatest television season of all time


be on the right side of history folks

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The funny thing is that that meme is sarcastic so the small brain part is usually the truth


so....

blame space said:

^ owned

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Stating "I didn't like it so everybody else is wrong" isn't exactly 'owning' the debate.

Yeah TV critics mean absolutely fucking nothing though

I like a lot of Lynch and I watched the original series but I couldn't connect to series three. I found it to be self indulgent. There are a lot of better series today.

I think I watched around 6 episodes before dropping it. The whole series feels like a huge scam, we gave Lynch a lot of money and he was glad to fuck around with his old gang and laugh at the test audiences. I'd rather watch the James sub-plot from S2 than this crap.

For what is worth the season is consistent. It doesn't change. What you are watching is what you are going to get. It is going to get weirder, but the style and tone is going to be the same. You are going to get more of the things you dislike and the ones you like. If you are enjoying it in some way keep watching but don't expect it to become a different thing.

I'm not going to comment of the quality of the show. There are some people that absolutely love and some other that despise it. For me it just wasn't worth it.

Shyranui said:

For what is worth the season is consistent. It doesn't change. What you are watching is what you are going to get. It is going to get weirder, but the style and tone is going to be the same. You are going to get more of the things you dislike and the ones you like. If you are enjoying it in some way keep watching but don't expect it to become a different thing.

I'm not going to comment of the quality of the show. There are some people that absolutely love and some other that despise it. For me it just wasn't worth it.

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Pretty much took the words out of my mouth. I held out hope it was building towards something or that it would change, but in retrospect it just set me up for disappointed. Let's just say if the credits said "written and directed by Neil Breen", I wouldn't have questioned it.

I absolutely loved it but don't take it as within the same series as the first two seasons which is highlighted by how it is "The Return" rather than "Season 3". Some of it I didn't enjoy but I loved most of it and it was such a breathe of fresh air from every other TV show. It was so exciting literally not knowing what was going to happen each episode and getting almost every suggestion I had for what I thought was going to happen to be wrong. It was fucking awesome.

SnakeyHips said:

I absolutely loved it but don't take it as within the same series as the first two seasons which is highlighted by how it is "The Return" rather than "Season 3".

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That was a Showtime construct though. It's the third season to Lynch & Frost, although I agree it's a different beast in many ways.

Personally, I adore it and find it an incredibly powerful work - it's not for everyone and requires not only the original series but also Fire Walk With Me to work best, but at the very least, it's an experience worth sampling.

dead souls said:

Most of them come off as people afraid to admit the emperor has no clothes to me. That was certainly the case for many of the reviews of the show I read by television critics. Oh, and episode 8 was just as bad the rest of the season.

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I went into it afraid to watch. I didn't have faith Lynch had it in him to do something great after so much time away from film/tv. So no I didn't go in with some some sort of mindset of denial to believe it could be bad. It was the opposite.

Lynch shocked me with how amazing it was, I NEVER expected it to be amazing let alone the best season if television ever made which it ended up being.

JadeGiveTwoRides said:

That was a Showtime construct though. It's the third season to Lynch & Frost, although I agree it's a different beast in many ways.

Personally, I adore it and find it an incredibly powerful work - it's not for everyone and requires not only the original series but also Fire Walk With Me to work best, but at the very least, it's an experience worth sampling.

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Oh sorry didn't know that but yeah I still take it as it being separate from the rest.

The "cultural vegetables" arguments that are bubbling up in here are super gross. Some folks honestly, genuinely, authentically like Lynch's work even if it doesn't meet the exacting, Olympian standards of the MCU audience.

There's nothing else like it for sure.

Net_Wrecker said:

I don't say these things lightly. I've watched a lot of shows/movies- a lot of them good, a lot of them crap- but enough to know that when something grabs me on a visceral level the way so much of Twin Peaks S3 did, it's not a small thing, and I'm not just saying things to make other people who may not have connected with it feel crazy.

Inland Empire is David Lynch at peak nonsense, and it's terrible. Twin Peaks S3 is two artists throwing thier full creative weight into a late career behemoth, backed, indeed, by a network that did not tell them no, and it's frequently as brilliant as it is frustrating, gripping, bewildering, and haunting. It gave me numerous sequences that I'll likely never see replicated on a weekly cable show again, and yes Part 8 is incredible.

You didn't like it, and that's ok. Nobody is trolling you.

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Agreed with everything BUT Inland Empire is brilliant.

I'm on episode 13 now, and by far, episode 11 was my absolute favorite of the entire series so far.

It's one of the most frustrating TV watching experiences I've ever had, and I'm pretty sure some of it is frustrating on purpose.

I really think your opinion of it completely depends on why you liked the original Twin Peaks in the first place. Some people adore the Lynchian surrealism and aesthetics. Some people were in it for the lore hunt. Me, I loved the quirky anti-humor and the weird and wacky characters. I loved the charms and bizarreness of that town.

I think if you're my type of viewer, you're going to have a hard time with the show. I feel like I'm pleading with my TV half the time. Episode 11 definitely nails the old Twin Peaks vibe the best.

Zero315 said:

Posts like this make me wonder if the people saying they like it actually like it, or if they're all just fucking with everyone.

I'm someone who likes Lynch's wankery and The Return was too much for me. It feels like he had the same issue Lucas had with the prequel trilogy, no one around him would tell him no.

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This is definitely it for me. People always say how Twin Peaks was ruined by executive meddling and such but the wheels were definitely spinning early on in S2. The offbeat charm was wearing off and the mystery less interesting. S1 was a great blend of Lychian weirdness and also tight plotting which is kind of an important thing to keep momentum in a serial.

It got good again when they brought closure to the Laura stuff and ended really well in the S2 finale, even if accidentally. I think the narrative that ABC or whoever it was 'ruined'/'killed' TP is wrong. It would have been worse had Lynch's vision not gotten a bit disciplined by those around him

S3 has its moments but I've never been convinced by the arguments put forward in its defence. Stuff like "it's about the degeneracy or moral decline in modern society as Coop is just like a paralyzed witness to it all". Yeah I don't buy that type of thing or a lot of these flimsy projected meanings cause the whole thing is too big and messy to support any real interpretations of it.

Also I don't think Lynch particularly cares to signify anything by it. I don't think that is something he has cared about in most of his work. But what makes most of his work marvellous is how they can sometimes suggest their own meaning almost by themselves. That way that as director he weaves together the weird and banal and walks away and then you get these almost Fruedian insights that emerge out of it all.

But TP season 3 is like a really long nightmare or fever dream that doesn't lend itself to the kinds of fun interpretations as does Mul Dr. or Lost Highway because it just overflows and becomes too hard to pin down. Putting it more simply, I just think it was way too long.

But I do like how it spits in your face in the finale and the final moments of the penultimate episode in the forest. Almost redeems it all. Almost.


edit: I also really love David Foster Wallace's essay on Lost Highway which I'd recommend reading: http://www.lynchnet.com/lh/lhpremiere.html

His writing is pretty Lynchian also.

JadeGiveTwoRides said:

That was a Showtime construct though. It's the third season to Lynch & Frost, although I agree it's a different beast in many ways.

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It's not the third season either, they only really call it "Twin Peaks." It's its own thing.

Net_Wrecker said:

Inland Empire is David Lynch at peak nonsense, and it's terrible. Twin Peaks S3 is two artists throwing thier full creative weight into a late career behemoth, backed, indeed, by a network that did not tell them no, and it's frequently as brilliant as it is frustrating, gripping, bewildering, and haunting. It gave me numerous sequences that I'll likely never see replicated on a weekly cable show again, and yes Part 8 is incredible.

You didn't like it, and that's ok. Nobody is trolling you.

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Inland Empire is more cohesive than the new Twin Peaks and that movie was filmed without a screenplay and assembled by incorporating unrelated experimental footage.
THAT is Lynch "throwing his full creative weight" into a project, not one where they wrote a disjointed behemoth of a script on-and-off over 4 years, over Skype, which Lynch was then forced to follow almost to the letter with no room to experiment. He bemoaned being creatively restricted by this production and some of the best material came from the few times he was able to deviate from the screenplay.
I mean, geez, the Woodsman poem wasn't even in the script. Can you imagine what we could have gotten if he was actually allowed to make up more of his "nonsense?"

I think Twin Peaks season one gets way too much praise considering the fact that all the greatest episodes of the OG show are in season 2. Not to mention Fire Walk With Me, without which, Twin Peaks would be nothing.

based goth said:

I think Twin Peaks season one gets way too much praise especially when the all the greatest episodes of the OG show are in season 2. Not to mention Fire Walk With Me, without which, Twin Peaks would be nothing.

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Sorry, find this to be a bit bananas.

Some of the greatest are in S2 I would agree. Catching the killer, Coop getting trapped. But all the bad undermines it.

The only episode of S1 I don't really like is the pilot oddly. It's just a scenario I've seen too much now. Girl gets murdered and the fallout of it. Everything afterwards is better imo.

Movie does sound funky tho. Thread theme

based goth said:

I think Twin Peaks season one gets way too much praise considering the fact that all the greatest episodes of the OG show are in season 2. Not to mention Fire Walk With Me, without which, Twin Peaks would be nothing.

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Season 2 sure had some of the greatest episodes but it also has all of the shit too.

Just skip to episode 8, soak it in and then move on with your life. You're not going to enjoy it if you're not already.

This is the water
And this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes
And dark within

This is the water
And this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes
And dark within

This is the water
And this is the well
Drink full and descend
The horse is the white of the eyes
And dark within

snausages said:

Sorry, find this to be a bit bananas.

Some of the greatest are in S2 I would agree. Catching the killer, Coop getting trapped. But all the bad undermines it.

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The movie is essential for my subjective Deeper Appreciation™ of the show and its world. In fact it saves Twin Peaks from the damage that the cathing the killer episodes and what comes after managed to cause.

I personally think the first two episodes of the season two and the finale are the greatest in the series sans maybe Parts 11 or 18 of the Return.

As a Twin Peaks fan, Dougie is the worst fucking garbage I've ever seen in a TV show. To believe the critics, it takes a master actor to shuffle around for 15 episodes and say "coffeeee?" Fucking please...

That being said, there was quite a bit of good in the Return, albeit in between a lot of bad.

Gronnd said:

As a Twin Peaks fan, Dougie is the worst fucking garbage I've ever seen in a TV show. To believe the critics it takes a master actor to shuffle around for 15 episodes and say "coffeeee?" Fucking please...

That being said, there was quite a bit of good in the Return, albeit in between a lot of bad.

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He had to play three versions of the same character. I'd say that's pretty impressive.

Flipyap said:

Inland Empire is more cohesive than the new Twin Peaks and that movie was filmed without a screenplay and assembled by incorporating unrelated experimental footage.
THAT is Lynch "throwing his full creative weight" into a project, not one where they wrote a disjointed behemoth of a script on-and-off over 4 years, over Skype, which Lynch was then forced to follow almost to the letter with no room to experiment. He bemoaned being creatively restricted by this production and some of the best material came from the few times he was able to deviate from the screenplay.
I mean, geez, the Woodsman poem wasn't even in the script. Can you imagine what we could have gotten if he was actually allowed to make up more of his "nonsense?"

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Inland Empire is more cohesive by virtue of being a 3 hour stream of crap with little variance in tone or volume. Lynch may bemoan structure, but he's at his best with a script in front of him, which allows him the opportunity to detour and do things like the Woodsman poem without completely losing sight of the shoreline. Hitting a self imposed wall and using that structure to do something that wasn't penned in an early draft of the story is just as much a part of the creative process as blind experimentation.

Watching it weekly id be lying if I didnt say I was disappointed, but on reflection as a whole and now that its over its some of the best TV ive ever seen.

I think about it all a lot. Really profound shit.

Gronnd said:

As a Twin Peaks fan, Dougie is the worst fucking garbage I've ever seen in a TV show. To believe the critics, it takes a master actor to shuffle around for 15 episodes and say "coffeeee?" Fucking please...

That being said, there was quite a bit of good in the Return, albeit in between a lot of bad.

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Apologise to Dougie

It's one of the greatest things I have ever seen on television.
It can be long in some places though, but it's definitely worth it for all the highs.
I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea and you need to be in certain state of mind to enjoy it,
but straight out calling it bad is disingenuous.

HeeeelllllooooooOOOOOOoooo

Net_Wrecker said:

Inland Empire is more cohesive by virtue of being a 3 hour stream of crap with little variance in tone or volume. Lynch may bemoan structure, but he's at his best with a script in front of him, which allows him the opportunity to detour and do things like the Woodsman poem without completely losing sight of the shoreline. Hitting a self imposed wall and using that structure to do something that wasn't penned in an early draft of the story is just as much a part of the creative process as blind experimentation.

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I'd just like to point out that you're saying this in a thread about Twin Peaks, the show whose troubled second season was redeemed by Lynch throwing out most of its finale's screenplay and replacing it with an entirely unscripted experiment that ended up keeping the show relevant for over two decades.

It's insane, and frustrating if you want og twin peaks. But it's also magical and will stick with you for months. It got under my skin like few other works of fiction have.

Gronnd said:

As a Twin Peaks fan, Dougie is the worst fucking garbage I've ever seen in a TV show. To believe the critics, it takes a master actor to shuffle around for 15 episodes and say "coffeeee?" Fucking please...

That being said, there was quite a bit of good in the Return, albeit in between a lot of bad.

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Don't like it is just the critics who adored Dougie and Kyle's performance of him.

Check out pretty much every Twin Peaks forum out or the Twin Peaks Reddit.

I'd say EASILY over 90% of Twin Peaks fans adored the Dougie stuff.