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Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Genre is irrelevant though - the counterpoint to "Why would they give things away free that competitors can and do charge money for" being "they already do that" is a pretty strong one.
And not just in consumer facing areas like their games; they literally give away a ton of services on the developer backend that they could easily charge for but don't, because it promotes their services as being good.

Hyper-aggressive monetisation - such as Pay To Win - is some straight up golden goose killing tactics. Valve have literally shown no indication of ever being that stupid or greedy, and they have no shareholders that would push that.

Show me a card game which is successful, yet doesn't receive multiple set expansions every year. You cannot, the business model is different. A card game must always introduce new elements because you don't have the mechanical mastery, so you must keep the strategy/knowledge aspect in the constant shuffle. It is a selling point, the idea that you will constantly encounter new cards and new mechanics. You will never find MTG players complain about the release of new sets, because everyone understands the positives of new sets. You might hear players complain about the quality of some cards, mechanics, calling some cards OP while other useless, but in general, a set is a huge benefit for the community. New sets keep the game alive.

What do new sets need? Staff, you cannot recycle artworks or mechanics, you must keep introducing new elements to the game, accompanied by the artworks, and sometimes even the complete stories or lore like MTG. Valve can starve CSGO or TF2 of content updates, because the game has enough mechanical mastery and player-interaction to keep it interesting. Valve has never spearheaded content in the game like other publishers, they will not be able to get away with 1set/year update model, because multiple card game developers have expressed that the golden numbers are 3-4 sets/year to keep the players engaged.

Cosmetics in card games are also harder to sell. Nobody has build a profitable card game monetizing foils/effects/avatars/card-backs. The weapon/character skins are more desirable than alternative-art or particle-effects cards. You can only show-off your items to the opponent.

Unless Artifact is going to be a loss leader, Valve will have to monetize the boosters/cards. CSGO/TF2/DOTA2 are NOT loss leaders, they have monetization models which net revenue, while the upkeep for those games is a 5-15 team of developers.

I think it is very clear that the initial package is going to be the starter pack and Valve has a full intention to monetize the extra cards/components to some degree.
 

shan780

The Fallen
Nov 2, 2017
2,566
UK
Newell says they want to stay away from "pay-to-win," but you will be able to purchase cards via the marketplace, and apparently "bargain hunting" will be a key element for strategic deck building. However, cards will not have their power tied to rarity.

if he wants to stay away from pay to win, why is he making cards purchasable via the market? if it's a fee to play game, i'd expect to at least be able to get all the cards without grinding or paying more money
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,763
Toronto, ON
Show me a card game which is successful, yet doesn't receive multiple set expansions every year. You cannot, the business model is different. A card game must always introduce new elements because you don't have the mechanical mastery, so you must keep the strategy/knowledge aspect in the constant shuffle. It is a selling point, the idea that you will constantly encounter new cards and new mechanics. You will never find MTG players complain about the release of new sets, because everyone understands the positives of new sets. You might hear players complain about the quality of some cards, mechanics, calling some cards OP while other useless, but in general, a set is a huge benefit for the community. New sets keep the game alive.

What do new sets need? Staff, you cannot recycle artworks or mechanics, you must keep introducing new elements to the game, accompanied by the artworks, and sometimes even the complete stories or lore like MTG. Valve can starve CSGO or TF2 of content updates, because the game has enough mechanical mastery and player-interaction to keep it interesting. Valve has never spearheaded content in the game like other publishers, they will not be able to get away with 1set/year update model, because multiple card game developers have expressed that the golden numbers are 3-4 sets/year to keep the players engaged.

Cosmetics in card games are also harder to sell. Nobody has build a profitable card game monetizing foils/effects/avatars/card-backs. The weapon/character skins are more desirable than alternative-art or particle-effects cards. You can only show-off your items to the opponent.

Unless Artifact is going to be a loss leader, Valve will have to monetize the boosters/cards. CSGO/TF2/DOTA2 are NOT loss leaders, they have monetization models which net revenue, while the upkeep for those games is a 5-15 team of developers.

I think it is very clear that the initial package is going to be the starter pack and Valve has a full intention to monetize the extra cards/components to some degree.

Well-argued and I think completely accurate.
 

Tagyhag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,493
Not F2P and you still gotta buy cards? Genius.

As someone who is a fan of Magic and have over a thousand hours on DOTA, I couldn't care less for this game. I have no idea how they expect it to be a major player in such a market, especially with these decisions.
 

Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
As a card carrying member of Hearthstone Era and it's discord this does nothing to excite me.

The business model seems a cluster fuck of epic proportions.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
Show me a card game which is successful, yet doesn't receive multiple set expansions every year. You cannot, the business model is different. A card game must always introduce new elements because you don't have the mechanical mastery, so you must keep the strategy/knowledge aspect in the constant shuffle. It is a selling point, the idea that you will constantly encounter new cards and new mechanics. You will never find MTG players complain about the release of new sets, because everyone understands the positives of new sets. You might hear players complain about the quality of some cards, mechanics, calling some cards OP while other useless, but in general, a set is a huge benefit for the community. New sets keep the game alive.

What do new sets need? Staff, you cannot recycle artworks or mechanics, you must keep introducing new elements to the game, accompanied by the artworks, and sometimes even the complete stories or lore like MTG. Valve can starve CSGO or TF2 of content updates, because the game has enough mechanical mastery and player-interaction to keep it interesting. Valve has never spearheaded content in the game like other publishers, they will not be able to get away with 1set/year update model, because multiple card game developers have expressed that the golden numbers are 3-4 sets/year to keep the players engaged.

Cosmetics in card games are also harder to sell. Nobody has build a profitable card game monetizing foils/effects/avatars/card-backs. The weapon/character skins are more desirable than alternative-art or particle-effects cards. You can only show-off your items to the opponent.

Unless Artifact is going to be a loss leader, Valve will have to monetize the boosters/cards. CSGO/TF2/DOTA2 are NOT loss leaders, they have monetization models which net revenue, while the upkeep for those games is a 5-15 team of developers.

I think it is very clear that the initial package is going to be the starter pack and Valve has a full intention to monetize the extra cards/components to some degree.

I'm not saying they're not going to monetise it.
I'm saying I don't believe they are going to make it pay to win.

Read the quote chain.
 

Namdrater

Member
Oct 27, 2017
90
Berlin / Cape Town
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veeorvU4F1w - Good explanation of how the game works in all its parts.

I can actually see some ways that they could manage to make a fair economy for trading and that's by balancing heroes, items and spells accordingly. I imagine they will try emulate lots of things that Dota does in terms of balance and design. In Dota there's 100+ items to buy in the shop during the game, but there's no single item that is a cut above the rest in terms of abilities/stats it provides - it's completely dependent on what hero you're playing, what you're against, what the game situation is, etc. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they will aim for this type of approach for the cards. Every card can be common, but you're obviously limited to the ones you've got. If you have cards in your deck you don't want, you trade them and there's likely thousands of other people doing the same thing.

The value of cards on the market could literally rely on rarity and cosmetics only. If there's only 5 cards which have a gold outline and are signed by the first Artifact tournament winner, those are going to sell for massive amounts on the market and Valve will profit from those trades. They don't want to make the game free, because it would mean that hundreds of cards would start with a value of 0 which doesn't make sense for a trading card game.

Maybe I'm just hoping, but that makes sense to me.
 
OP
OP
Oct 27, 2017
17,441
Is Garfield a designer on the project, or the designer? Like, how much of this is coming from him as the chief vision behind it?
I forget which article said this, but he was described as the lead designer. Also he's apparently been working on the game since 2014, so he's definitely not some consultant they brought on or something. He was described similar to IceFrog with Dota.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018...hands-on-with-artifact-digital-trading-cards/ - this reiterates some points from other press at the event, obviously, but if you're hungry for more info and insight on it, plus conversations w/ other Valve staffers about game economies, knock yourself out.

Thanks for this, I'll add it to the OP.
 

DiceHands

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,638
Not F2P, being made by Richard Garfield...

Yeah.. its gonna be a huge money sink. I had to get out of MtG because of how expensive it is. I imagine theyre going for something similar here. Expansions non stop. Theres no way theyre going to give out free cards. You def will be buying packs.

I will say this though. Lately, Garfield has been creating CCG's, not TCG's. The CCG model means you buy the "chapter pack" and get 3 copies of each card in that expansion. Usually around 15 bucks for actual cards IRL.

Unsure if they have labelled this a TCG or a CCG, but considering it says you can trade, im gonna guess it is in fact a TCG with packs and RNG.
 

Doomguy Fieri

Member
Nov 3, 2017
5,265
If Artifact is a collectible card game it will be "pay 2 win" in some fashion. If you need to buy the cards, and certain cards are what drive the meta, you need to buy those cards.

The Ars article makes it seem like a typical $ packs of cards collection process. Trading cards on Steam is a cool feature but I played Magic as a kid and could "trade" my money for specific cards at the comic book store.

I'll also say, the screenshots are busy. Closed beta Artifact looks like GOTY edition cover compared to Hearthstone. The simplicity of a Hearthstone board is a big part of why it works so well on mobile. Will be interested in how the UI develops. Right now it looks like something that would crowd my phone (which is a big!)
 

chaostrophy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,378
I don't know if I'm just old fashioned or the idea of digital assets being "collectible" is genuinely absurd. Either way, this model is a big turnoff. Why not just sell a $60 game that includes all the cards? Maybe assign cards market valuations in an in-game currency and put limits on the total values of decks in that currency for the "bargain-hunting" element?
 

Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
I don't know if I'm just old fashioned or the idea of digital assets being "collectible" is genuinely absurd. Either way, this model is a big turnoff. Why not just sell a $60 game that includes all the cards? Maybe assign cards market valuations in an in-game currency and put limits on the total values of decks in that currency for the "bargain-hunting" element?

I mean I'm fine with that. I'm ok with paying for a card game.

I'm ok with f2p and buying packs.

I'm not ok with paying for the game then having to grind for packs or having to buy the shit I want on the marketplace after I paid for the game already.
 

Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
I don't know why you quoted me, but if you don't think somethings worth your money don't buy it problem solved end of story everyones happy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's still about monitization hence why I quoted you.

Plus I'm their target market. I play CCGs. I have a Pokemon TCG account. I have an Eternal account. I actively play Hearthstone. I bought the DotP games back in the day.

I'm the person that this is for, but I'm trying to find out the upside here. Cosmetic things being extra beyond me paying to get in can be fine depending upon the buy in. Cards aren't cosmetic though as it's the core part of the game.

It feels like Valve is trying to have their cake and eat it too.
 
Feb 16, 2018
2,685
according to the article, the mode where you build your own decks with your cards is a trading card game. if there's a decent marketplace, that means you can basically switch decks whenever you want instead of being tied to whatever you invested in.

that's a decent model. but sometimes what that really means is "we have no idea how to balance this game. we hope that a scarcity-based economy will cause everyone to play different decks and then the metagame will be more diverse than what the card balance would allow by itself"

is there a draft mode where you play against the same people you draft with?
that would be welcome news. i'm not seeing anything novel in the constructed mode
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
It's still about monitization hence why I quoted you.

Plus I'm their target market. I play CCGs. I have a Pokemon TCG account. I have an Eternal account. I actively play Hearthstone. I bought the DotP games back in the day.

I'm the person that this is for, but I'm trying to find out the upside here. Cosmetic things being extra beyond me paying to get in can be fine depending upon the buy in. Cards aren't cosmetic though as it's the core part of the game.

It feels like Valve is trying to have their cake and eat it too.

I mean... it seems premature to get mad about their monetisation when there are literally zero details, but what I suspect will be the case is it will be something like;
- base game buy has a number of viable premade decks, which logic suggests must be at least 3 just for balance reasons and to fit differing playstyles, so lets assume a rush deck, a control deck and a stall deck as obvious playstyle archetypes as a bare minimum base game purchase include.
- 'booster packs' of different flavours to match those base game archetype decks, which would be random cards and if you get dupes you can trade them with friends for free or sell on the marketplace / buy specifics on the marketplace (and its very likely there will be third party sites using the steam APIs to let you trade 1 for 1 similar rarity cards with strangers)
- larger expansion type purchases which would be a premade archetype deck, with associated boosters with those expansions also introduced
 

DigitalTravis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
290
So Blizzard makes Warcraft III, and someone mods DOTA. Valve cops that and makes DOTA 2.

Valve sitting on TF2 hat success and proud of their DOTA steal, they go to sleep.

Blizzard are like ok, our Moba is HOTS, and we will go ahead and yoink that TF2 from you and make Overwatch.

Overwatch wakes Valve back up and they decide to rip off Hearthstone.

Competition is good.
 
OP
OP
Oct 27, 2017
17,441
So Blizzard makes Warcraft III, and someone mods DOTA. Valve cops that and makes DOTA 2.

Valve sitting on TF2 hat success and proud of their DOTA steal, they go to sleep.

Blizzard are like ok, our Moba is HOTS, and we will go ahead and yoink that TF2 from you and make Overwatch.

Overwatch wakes Valve back up and they decide to rip off Hearthstone.

Competition is good.
Apparently they were working on this before Hearthstone, but it's still pretty funny when you lay it out like that.
 

forrest

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,522
Aw man, I'm not sure if it was known prior, but I had no clue this was going to be a card game. Incredibly bummed as I'm just not interested in them at all. Hope for those that are, this turns out to be great.
 

708

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,358
So Blizzard makes Warcraft III, and someone mods DOTA. Valve cops that and makes DOTA 2.

Valve sitting on TF2 hat success and proud of their DOTA steal, they go to sleep.

Blizzard are like ok, our Moba is HOTS, and we will go ahead and yoink that TF2 from you and make Overwatch.

Overwatch wakes Valve back up and they decide to rip off Hearthstone.

Competition is good.
Can't wait for Valve's Diablo and Blizzard's Half-Life.
Seriously though, I'm surprised Valve has never made a loot game, either FPS-TPS MMO-Lite or isometric arpg. It's the perfect GaaS for Valve.
Also unrelated but I want Valve's take on Smash with DOTA characters.
 

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
As a card carrying member of Hearthstone Era and it's discord this does nothing to excite me.

The business model seems a cluster fuck of epic proportions.
If they are smart they are going to go after the whales that fund Dota 2.
It's also logical for their esports business as extensions of Dota esports IE have a LAN tournament with Artifact and Dota 2 at the same event. Or have Artifact matches in between Dota 2 matches as time filler.

It might not go over well with the F2P/casual gamers and the non-Dota community, but I think if they go about it in the right way they can create a worthy side-game for the Valve community.

As a mass market product idk how well it work at all. They would have been better off doing something else if they thought it would appeal to everyone and make a bajillion dollars.
 

catvonpee

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,822
I guess it is a start. But I'd rather have something innovative like Portal, or Left 4 Dead, or you know, Half Like 3.
 
OP
OP
Oct 27, 2017
17,441
If they are smart they are going to go after the whales that fund Dota 2.
It's also logical for their esports business as extensions of Dota esports IE have a LAN tournament with Artifact and Dota 2 at the same event. Or have Artifact matches in between Dota 2 matches as time filler.

It might not go over well with the F2P/casual gamers and the non-Dota community, but I think if they go about it in the right way they can create a worthy side-game for the Valve community.

As a mass market product idk how well it work at all. They would have been better off doing something else if they thought it would appeal to everyone and make a bajillion dollars.
Based on the gameplay videos, I definitely don't think they're going for the super casual crowd.
 

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
IMG_2725.jpg

Kinda want
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,137
I feel like I'm the only person that sees not FTP and ability to sell and buy cards individually and is instantly more interested than any FTP options.

I haven't gotten back into Hearthstone for so long because any time I try to figure out what to get into I either have to get some of the single player content and get the cards from them or buy packs and piece together what I can. Or a huge deal but buying a starter deck and a couple individual cards to jump in and plays sounds much more open to me.

I've jumped in and gotten back into MTG way more times and more than I've successfully jumped back into Hearthstone.
 

Vanillalite

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,709
If they are smart they are going to go after the whales that fund Dota 2.
It's also logical for their esports business as extensions of Dota esports IE have a LAN tournament with Artifact and Dota 2 at the same event. Or have Artifact matches in between Dota 2 matches as time filler.

It might not go over well with the F2P/casual gamers and the non-Dota community, but I think if they go about it in the right way they can create a worthy side-game for the Valve community.

As a mass market product idk how well it work at all. They would have been better off doing something else if they thought it would appeal to everyone and make a bajillion dollars.

DOTA2 IS F2P though.
 

Tim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
441
I feel like I'm the only person that sees not FTP and ability to sell and buy cards individually and is instantly more interested than any FTP options.

I haven't gotten back into Hearthstone for so long because any time I try to figure out what to get into I either have to get some of the single player content and get the cards from them or buy packs and piece together what I can. Or a huge deal but buying a starter deck and a couple individual cards to jump in and plays sounds much more open to me.

I've jumped in and gotten back into MTG way more times and more than I've successfully jumped back into Hearthstone.
I personally agree. This game not being F2P is fine if it's fun. Most free card games I've tried are a tedious grind. Here's hoping no daily quests either.
 

zeknurn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,270
Can't wait for Valve's Diablo and Blizzard's Half-Life.
Seriously though, I'm surprised Valve has never made a loot game, either FPS-TPS MMO-Lite or isometric arpg. It's the perfect GaaS for Valve.
Also unrelated but I want Valve's take on Smash with DOTA characters.

Funnily enough, Valve was working on a Diablo style game a while ago but they canned it and concept artist posted the art.
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/09/25/valve-artist-portfolio-shows-fantasy-game/
 

Deleted member 2945

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
454
I'm really stupid, how does a card become available to be sold on the market? Are there going to be drops? Or packs that users can buy and sell their duplicates?
 

MGPanda

Member
Feb 25, 2018
2,479
I don't want to be a Negative Nancy and jump into the "hurr durr it's not Half-Life 3" but man I totally see this becoming the new Lawbreakers. Obviously with a bigger playerbase at the beginning because it's Valve, but with Hearthstone and other card games in the market, I don't see how a paid DotA card spin-off could ever do well on this market.
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,742
I'm really stupid, how does a card become available to be sold on the market? Are there going to be drops? Or packs that users can buy and sell their duplicates?
Probably both. I see them having different "quality cards" like the same cards but one is travel worn and the other is in perfect condition or a diamond outline or something and they sell based on that. (cuz they said all card rarity is the same)
I don't want to be a Negative Nancy and jump into the "hurr durr it's not Half-Life 3" but man I totally see this becoming the new Lawbreakers. Obviously with a bigger playerbase at the beginning because it's Valve, but with Hearthstone and other card games in the market, I don't see how a paid DotA card spin-off could ever do well on this market.
There is absolutely zero chance this ever becomes the next Lawbreakeres, it's gonna have wild success if nowhere else then in Russia and will probably be bigger than 1st party console exclusives.
 

zeknurn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,270
I don't want to be a Negative Nancy and jump into the "hurr durr it's not Half-Life 3" but man I totally see this becoming the new Lawbreakers. Obviously with a bigger playerbase at the beginning because it's Valve, but with Hearthstone and other card games in the market, I don't see how a paid DotA card spin-off could ever do well on this market.

I wasn't that hot on the game before but now I'm of the complete opposite opinion following this infodump. I was expecting a casual free to play Hearthstone clone with loot boxes but instead they're making a complex skill based trading card game that won't be ruined by a free to play model.
As long as the game isn't too complex for a wide enough audience I see this becoming wildly popular and the esport scene is going to snipe pro players from Hearthstone who have become fed up with that game.
 

kanuuna

Member
Oct 26, 2017
726
I'm still waiting for a game where a hundred cards with quirky personalities & unique abilities that define their role drop down to an island (equipped with nothing but a rock) with the objective being to progress through a series of lanes, toppling towers along the way to a magic pool structure that must be destroyed the players in order to win and be rewarded with the non-paid currency for loot boxes that drop items with real world monetary value associated with them.

I'm sure Valve would be the one to do it.
 

Boddy

User Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,160
It's a valve game, therefore it is going to do well.
Shouldn't take long for some rare foils or something to be sold for several hundred dollars.
Bots could be a huge problem if that happens.
 

GUMDROP

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
375
If Richard Garfield is working on it, then they have me on board the hype train. Aside from creating MtG in the first place, most of the best sets in recent history - Innistrad, Ravnica, the new Dominaria - have all been worked on by him. King of Tokyo and Netrunner are also great examples of his work.

Its a shame to see what happened to valve...they now develop card games for pc and mobile? :(

The Valve Thread Binary Tree

What is Valve doing:
Releasing a new game > Shame to see what Valve has become
Not releasing a new game > I remember when Valve use to make games
 
Last edited:

DGS

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,289
Tyrol
Wow, really original... a card game. Easy money, huh.

Let's see what else is coming, but apparently games like CS:GO, Dota 2 and now a card game are in the spotlight, because there is endless money to earn. Perhapes a new engine opens the door to push old brands or new gaming experiences.