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Liquidsnake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,986
If your company matches contributions up to 8%, you are losing free money by only contributing 5%. Also your company match isn't per $100 you contribute, it's a direct match to the percentage of your income you contribute.

The way it states in in the benefits details is as follows...........Since the 2010 plan year each year the annual match has been 8% of deferrals. So, for every $100 you saved the company added another $8. In 2017, if you contributed the IRS maximum deferral of $18,000, you would have received a company contribution of $1,440.

So its not really the way you described it right?
 

Straight Edge

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
813
The way it states in in the benefits details is as follows...........Since the 2010 plan year each year the annual match has been 8% of deferrals. So, for every $100 you saved the company added another $8. In 2017, if you contributed the IRS maximum deferral of $18,000, you would have received a company contribution of $1,440.

So its not really the way you described it right?

Guess I'm wrong, I've had a 401k at 3 different companies and it was always a direct match.
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943
The way it states in in the benefits details is as follows...........Since the 2010 plan year each year the annual match has been 8% of deferrals. So, for every $100 you saved the company added another $8. In 2017, if you contributed the IRS maximum deferral of $18,000, you would have received a company contribution of $1,440.

So its not really the way you described it right?
Can't believe such a garbage match even exists. May as well not have a match at all.
 
OP
OP
TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
Seriously, that's horrible. Now you're forced to put everything in there just to get a completely shit match. I haven't done the math but if the fees on the options are bad enough it might not even be worth it.
 

JoeyJungle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
560
Alright so I'll need to ask HR about this, but I'm getting close to being eligible for the 401k at my new job and started looking at the packet they sent me. I don't see anything mentioned about an employer match for contributions (I think I just assumed it existed and never asked about the details), and it looks like the only option I have is the Fidelity Freedom 2060 Fund - Class K. It's like 60% bonds and gross expense ratio of 0.640%. I'm using Betterment right now and have no complaints, should I even bother to move money to this 401k?
 
OP
OP
TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
If that's it and there's no match then I don't see the point, might as well just keep it where it is.
But I would double check in to that. I don't know as much about American stuff, but it seems pretty unusual to have no match in the 401k.
 

Keyboard

Guest
Alright so I'll need to ask HR about this, but I'm getting close to being eligible for the 401k at my new job and started looking at the packet they sent me. I don't see anything mentioned about an employer match for contributions (I think I just assumed it existed and never asked about the details), and it looks like the only option I have is the Fidelity Freedom 2060 Fund - Class K. It's like 60% bonds and gross expense ratio of 0.640%. I'm using Betterment right now and have no complaints, should I even bother to move money to this 401k?
I see this: https://portfolios.morningstar.com/fund/summary?t=FNSFX which is almost 85+% stocks and 6% bonds, so I'm not sure where you got your details.

Expense ratio is so-so, not extremely terrible. I've seen worst funds with 3.00% and higher with front load and back load fees.

I see no huge downsides here unless you forgot to mention other fees.

If you already filled up your tIRA or roth IRA, you can put money in it. You can later roll the 401K over to a tIRA when you leave your employer and select funds you wanted.

Are you sure that's the only fund available?
 
Nov 24, 2017
41
Los Angeles
Hi friends! I invested 5.5 into my Roth IRA for 2017 last year, but my 2017 salary is just slightly over the 118 contribution limit. The page says that I still can contribute a reduced amount, but I can't find how much that is. Anyone have an idea where I can find that number?
 

Charlatan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15
Hi friends! I invested 5.5 into my Roth IRA for 2017 last year, but my 2017 salary is just slightly over the 118 contribution limit. The page says that I still can contribute a reduced amount, but I can't find how much that is. Anyone have an idea where I can find that number?

Here's a calculator that lets you determine how much you can contribute (it's on the middle of the page, entitled 'Phase Out: Reduced Contributions'): http://www.moneychimp.com/articles/rothira/contribution_limits.htm
 
Nov 24, 2017
41
Los Angeles

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,407
Thanks! I actually realized that my wages are below the limit, but that my RSU stock (which I haven't sold) is what's pushing me over the limit. Does the limit apply to stock as well?

Yes. RSUs are as treated normal income equal to their fair market value at the time they vest, regardless of whether or not you sell them after they have vested. It is no different than if they had just given you an equal amount of cash in your paycheck.
 

GK86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,767
What is the best robo-advisor mutual fund? I want to open a mutual fund and don't really want to deal with it. Just have the robo do all the work. Thanks.
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,875
Metro Detroit
What is the best robo-advisor mutual fund? I want to open a mutual fund and don't really want to deal with it. Just have the robo do all the work. Thanks.
The robot is just going to cost you money for no added value. Spend an hour going though the OT and reading the thread. Ask any questions you might have and follow our advice. :)
 
OP
OP
TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
What is the best robo-advisor mutual fund? I want to open a mutual fund and don't really want to deal with it. Just have the robo do all the work. Thanks.

Also if you find the OP overwhelming, let me know what could help soften the blow. There's a lot of information to convey and I've been trying to find the best way to edit it up to get to the meat of the situation more quickly.
 

Dali

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,184
I realize one of the benefits of my retirement plan is how I don't really miss the money the way it's deducted. My take home pay is directly deposited into my checking account but i was thinking of having a portion diverted into another account so I can "not miss it" either and have a separate savings account that is more flexible than a 401k should I need to dip into it. My question is what would be a good bank or type of account to use for this? This wouldn't necessarily be for retirement savings. Just money set to the side that I would accrue some internet and be flexible if a withdrawal is needed.
 

BigWeather

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,426
I realize one of the benefits of my retirement plan is how I don't really miss the money the way it's deducted. My take home pay is directly deposited into my checking account but i was thinking of having a portion diverted into another account so I can "not miss it" either and have a separate savings account that is more flexible than a 401k should I need to dip into it. My question is what would be a good bank or type of account to use for this? This wouldn't necessarily be for retirement savings. Just money set to the side that I would accrue some internet and be flexible if a withdrawal is needed.
Sadly not many good options here. Bank accounts (checking nor saving) yield absurdly low interest right now. I think the best with our credit union is around 1%. Back-in-the-day I set up 5yr CDs that expired on a rolling basis every 6mo or so but rates for those are bad now too (2.25%) and made it not worth it. Still, I have a percentage of my income go to a savings account -- even though the interest is terrible it at least isn't subject to the market ups and downs and I can get to it when I want, and don't miss it since it is automatically sent there, so it's OK.
 

RoKKeR

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,385
Sadly not many good options here. Bank accounts (checking nor saving) yield absurdly low interest right now. I think the best with our credit union is around 1%. Back-in-the-day I set up 5yr CDs that expired on a rolling basis every 6mo or so but rates for those are bad now too (2.25%) and made it not worth it. Still, I have a percentage of my income go to a savings account -- even though the interest is terrible it at least isn't subject to the market ups and downs and I can get to it when I want, and don't miss it since it is automatically sent there, so it's OK.
Yeah, I use an Amex Personal Savings account for my emergency fund, I think the APY is 1.45% right now. (it was 1.35% when I opened it two months ago, FWIW) At least it's better than nothing and I won't be doing anything with that money unless I do have an emergency to deal with.
 

Chaosblade

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,596
Yeah, I use an Amex Personal Savings account for my emergency fund, I think the APY is 1.45% right now. (it was 1.35% when I opened it two months ago, FWIW) At least it's better than nothing and I won't be doing anything with that money unless I do have an emergency to deal with.

Savings interest rates have been going up. My Ally savings account has gone from 1% to 1.45% in under a year.
 

RBH

Official ERA expert on Third Party Football
Member
Nov 2, 2017
32,914
I realize one of the benefits of my retirement plan is how I don't really miss the money the way it's deducted. My take home pay is directly deposited into my checking account but i was thinking of having a portion diverted into another account so I can "not miss it" either and have a separate savings account that is more flexible than a 401k should I need to dip into it. My question is what would be a good bank or type of account to use for this? This wouldn't necessarily be for retirement savings. Just money set to the side that I would accrue some internet and be flexible if a withdrawal is needed.
You could possibly do an online savings account. The interest rates have actually increased for a few of those within the past month, such as with Ally (as mentioned in the post above me).


http://www.magnifymoney.com/blog/earning-interest/best-online-savings-accounts275921001/
 
Feb 23, 2018
200
How much do you recommend to keep in an emergency fund/money in the bank? Im quite risk averse (kept out of crypto and would rather buy land/property) and im thinking of having 50k to 100k in the bank before doing any investing. I see entering investments as money that i must be ok with losing everything...i can probably hit 50k saved in about 3 - 5 years or shld i be starting in etf now (i can buy min $100 per month each in 2 seperate indexes with my bank easily)? Current status: Single, late 20s, staying with parents, 20% goes directly to retirement fund (its a government thing), 20% to parents for rent/contribution, i can save 50% of remaining easily but i might be taking on some extra educational expenses for a second degree (projecting around 20 to 30k over 4 years)
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,407
How much do you recommend to keep in an emergency fund/money in the bank? Im quite risk averse (kept out of crypto and would rather buy land/property) and im thinking of having 50k to 100k in the bank before doing any investing. I see entering investments as money that i must be ok with losing everything...i can probably hit 50k saved in about 3 - 5 years or shld i be starting in etf now (i can buy min $100 per month each in 2 seperate indexes with my bank easily)? Current status: Single, late 20s, staying with parents, 20% goes directly to retirement fund (its a government thing), 20% to parents for rent/contribution, i can save 50% of remaining easily but i might be taking on some extra educational expenses for a second degree (projecting around 20 to 30k over 4 years)

Ultimately it is up to individuals to determine their own risk tolerance. That said, I think the majority view would be that keeping such a large amount of money in a cash emergency fund is too conservative for someone in their 20s. The reason that young people are usually advised to have a lot of stock is that even though the stock market has huge ups and downs over short periods, it has (so far) always done well over long periods. This chart of nominal 30-year returns is instructive.

iZTZrHR.png


Someone who invested in 1986 and kept their money in the market for 30 years had to go through three major crashes: Black Monday, The Dotcom bubble burst, and the Financial Crisis - yet they still averaged a 10% nominal return. That's the power of long-term investment, and it is what sets retirement investing apart from playing the stock market over short periods. Keeping $100K in cash generates a huge opportunity cost, since you are missing out on these returns. According to https://dqydj.com/sp-500-historical-return-calculator/ the best, median, and worst 40-year real annualized returns have been 10.3%, 6.4%, and 3.2%. Here is the opportunity cost of keeping $100K in cash for 40 years with those returns (in today's dollars):

3.2%: $240K
6.4%: $1.1M
10.3%: $4.9M
 

asdad123

Member
Oct 25, 2017
217
I'm currently 26. I happen to be lucky and have a job where I'm making enough to save and do what I want.

Last year I made the most I have yet, yet while claiming single 0 i still owed $4000 in taxes. I'm guessing it's from the OT I did. I was told by an older co worker to put my retirement into a Roth contribution rather than pretax due to there not being taxes in the future. If I went to pretax going forward, it would knock down my income so hopefully less taxes in the future.

Any suggestions what I should do? Stick with the Roth, go pretax, or a combination of both?

I was contributing 7% last year, and plan to go up to 10% this year.

I'd like to not owe so much next year haha.
 

ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
Sadly not many good options here. Bank accounts (checking nor saving) yield absurdly low interest right now. I think the best with our credit union is around 1%. Back-in-the-day I set up 5yr CDs that expired on a rolling basis every 6mo or so but rates for those are bad now too (2.25%) and made it not worth it. Still, I have a percentage of my income go to a savings account -- even though the interest is terrible it at least isn't subject to the market ups and downs and I can get to it when I want, and don't miss it since it is automatically sent there, so it's OK.
This post reminded me of a guy in one of the other savings-related threads who has like $300k in a regular ass savings account. So crazy.
 
Feb 23, 2018
200
Someone who invested in 1986 and kept their money in the market for 30 years had to go through three major crashes: Black Monday, The Dotcom bubble burst, and the Financial Crisis - yet they still averaged a 10% nominal return. That's the power of long-term investment, and it is what sets retirement investing apart from playing the stock market over short periods. Keeping $100K in cash generates a huge opportunity cost, since you are missing out on these returns. According to https://dqydj.com/sp-500-historical-return-calculator/ the best, median, and worst 40-year real annualized returns have been 10.3%, 6.4%, and 3.2%. Here is the opportunity cost of keeping $100K in cash for 40 years with those returns (in today's dollars):

3.2%: $240K
6.4%: $1.1M
10.3%: $4.9M

Wow thanks for the detailed view! I'm probably just anxious because i had a long period of having low cash and scraping by (the 'romance' of owning your own small business), i think 50% in etf and 50% in savings will be the way to go for me till next year and then i'll re-evalate again.
 
OP
OP
TheTrinity

TheTrinity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
713
I'm currently 26. I happen to be lucky and have a job where I'm making enough to save and do what I want.

Last year I made the most I have yet, yet while claiming single 0 i still owed $4000 in taxes. I'm guessing it's from the OT I did. I was told by an older co worker to put my retirement into a Roth contribution rather than pretax due to there not being taxes in the future. If I went to pretax going forward, it would knock down my income so hopefully less taxes in the future.

Any suggestions what I should do? Stick with the Roth, go pretax, or a combination of both?

I was contributing 7% last year, and plan to go up to 10% this year.

I'd like to not owe so much next year haha.

Need more info to properly determine this but here's some points.

You shouldn't really care that you owe money once taxes comes around. All it means is that you were paid some income in an untaxed form (not unusual with OT or bonuses) and now you're evening it up. In a way, you can think of it like you got a short-term interest-free loan from the government.
Just make sure you know WHY you owe the money, just so you can be confident no mistakes have been made. When you get paid untaxed you should at least roughly calculate what the tax will be so you can set that amount aside and not be surprised come tax time.

The sort-of standard for deciding which tax shelter is: Will income in retirement be higher than income now? If yes do post-tax, if no do pre-tax.
But it's such a wishy-washy rule, I don't know how useful it is. You also have to be able to tell the future to determine what the tax brackets will be when you retire, but hey, it's what we have.
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,407
You shouldn't really care that you owe money once taxes comes around. All it means is that you were paid some income in an untaxed form (not unusual with OT or bonuses) and now you're evening it up. In a way, you can think of it like you got a short-term interest-free loan from the government.

To an extent. I almost hit the underpayment penalty this year. And the IRS charges 12% interest, compounded quarterly.

I'm not sure how I will do under the new tax system, so I asked for some extra withholding just in case.
 

JEKKI

Member
Oct 27, 2017
214
ok someone please help me understand this...

I posted in here before, basically my story was I want a house but can't afford a down payment, but I also have a number of odd IRA accounts from old employer 401Ks, so I wanted to consolidate them all and find a way to use that sum to get me a house.

I spoke with a financial adviser and he said the only way to do this is to roll them all up into your current employer's 401K account. The bad thing about this is that the investment isnt as strong, I'll be missing out on a lot of potential earning if I left them in their own IRA. But the good thing is I can borrow from my 401K which is great because it'll give me the money I need.

so far so cool... but my problem I'm having now is what does this mean:

3GJR5TI.jpg


this is from my current 401K's account page that gives you the option to borrow.

How the hell does a 6-year $30K loan reduce my retirement balance by over $500K?!?! that makes no sense, and I'm genuinely angry reading something like this.

am I not borrowing from myself? am I not paying myself back? at this point, wouldnt it just be wiser to not take the loan out as the lower down payment / extra mortgage payment would be less than a $500K loss?
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,407
How the hell does a 6-year $30K loan reduce my retirement balance by over $500K?!?! that makes no sense, and I'm genuinely angry reading something like this.

am I not borrowing from myself? am I not paying myself back? at this point, wouldnt it just be wiser to not take the loan out as the lower down payment / extra mortgage payment would be less than a $500K loss?

The calculation is not unreasonable if you are young. The fact that the number is high simply reflects the enormous power of compound interest over long periods of time. If you are 40 years away from retirement and you assume a real return rate of 7% (which is close to the historical average for stocks), then $1 invested today is worth $15 in retirement.

This isn't really unique to a 401K loan. The same sort of opportunity cost would be present if you were taking a normal bank loan or paying in cash. As long as you had the option of putting that money in the stock market instead, it can have a tremendous opportunity cost. This is a point I often try to make with people who think you are "throwing your money away" by renting instead of buying because you are not building equity. In fact the opportunity cost of buying a house is very high, so it is often possible to be financially better off if you keep renting and invest the money instead.
 

meow

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,094
NYC
Just want to do a quick sanity check and hoping the people here could help. I switched jobs earlier this year and just got all of my 401k stuff. I reread through a few of the past pages again and it seems I should roll my prior 401k into something else. My new employer offers what seems like all good/decent options: VIIIX, VEXAX, VTIAX, and VBTLX (and these seem pretty much better than what I could get doing my own IRA). They also offer their own target funds (I would be in the 2050 pool if I went that way) but I don't see any reason to use them, as the expense ratios are around 0.60%. They also have other stock and bond offerings, but is there any reason to use them (or even research them more) over the Vanguard options? The other expense ratios are all 0.33%-1.03% (and most are 0.70% or above).

Also, I have an even older 401k from almost 7 years ago. Was there a time limit on rolling this into my new employer's 401k? The answer for IRAs seems to be no so I hope it's the same for 401k to 401k?
 
Oct 27, 2017
21,545
Just want to do a quick sanity check and hoping the people here could help. I switched jobs earlier this year and just got all of my 401k stuff. I reread through a few of the past pages again and it seems I should roll my prior 401k into something else. My new employer offers what seems like all good/decent options: VIIIX, VEXAX, VTIAX, and VBTLX (and these seem pretty much better than what I could get doing my own IRA). They also offer their own target funds (I would be in the 2050 pool if I went that way) but I don't see any reason to use them, as the expense ratios are around 0.60%. They also have other stock and bond offerings, but is there any reason to use them (or even research them more) over the Vanguard options? The other expense ratios are all 0.33%-1.03% (and most are 0.70% or above).

Also, I have an even older 401k from almost 7 years ago. Was there a time limit on rolling this into my new employer's 401k? The answer for IRAs seems to be no so I hope it's the same for 401k to 401k?

There's no reason to use any of those others if you have access to Vanguard index funds.
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943
Just want to do a quick sanity check and hoping the people here could help. I switched jobs earlier this year and just got all of my 401k stuff. I reread through a few of the past pages again and it seems I should roll my prior 401k into something else. My new employer offers what seems like all good/decent options: VIIIX, VEXAX, VTIAX, and VBTLX (and these seem pretty much better than what I could get doing my own IRA). They also offer their own target funds (I would be in the 2050 pool if I went that way) but I don't see any reason to use them, as the expense ratios are around 0.60%. They also have other stock and bond offerings, but is there any reason to use them (or even research them more) over the Vanguard options? The other expense ratios are all 0.33%-1.03% (and most are 0.70% or above).

Also, I have an even older 401k from almost 7 years ago. Was there a time limit on rolling this into my new employer's 401k? The answer for IRAs seems to be no so I hope it's the same for 401k to 401k?
No reason to use them.

No time limit.
 

ThanksVision

Alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,030
if I've already filed my taxes for last year, can I still contribute up to $5500 for 2017 roth ira? or if I do that, will I have to refile? if that's the case I'd rather just start making my contributions to 2018
 

Deleted member 33887

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 20, 2017
2,109
How the hell does a 6-year $30K loan reduce my retirement balance by over $500K?!?! that makes no sense, and I'm genuinely angry reading something like this.

am I not borrowing from myself? am I not paying myself back? at this point, wouldnt it just be wiser to not take the loan out as the lower down payment / extra mortgage payment would be less than a $500K loss?

Instead of making money for x amount of years, you're taking away from the principal you would have had invested and you're having to pay interest on top of that. This is effectively two penalties. The two combined compounded over many years means that a small amount of money is a whole lot of money later. Losing the compounded interest by itself is already a large penalty, but the two coupled together is painful. Especially with an interest rate that is 5.5%.
 

JEKKI

Member
Oct 27, 2017
214
The calculation is not unreasonable if you are young. The fact that the number is high simply reflects the enormous power of compound interest over long periods of time. If you are 40 years away from retirement and you assume a real return rate of 7% (which is close to the historical average for stocks), then $1 invested today is worth $15 in retirement.

This isn't really unique to a 401K loan. The same sort of opportunity cost would be present if you were taking a normal bank loan or paying in cash. As long as you had the option of putting that money in the stock market instead, it can have a tremendous opportunity cost. This is a point I often try to make with people who think you are "throwing your money away" by renting instead of buying because you are not building equity. In fact the opportunity cost of buying a house is very high, so it is often possible to be financially better off if you keep renting and invest the money instead.

Instead of making money for x amount of years, you're taking away from the principal you would have had invested and you're having to pay interest on top of that. This is effectively two penalties. The two combined compounded over many years means that a small amount of money is a whole lot of money later. Losing the compounded interest by itself is already a large penalty, but the two coupled together is painful. Especially with an interest rate that is 5.5%.
even if you're removing principal, it's a loan so you begin paying it back immediately. In 3 years you should have paid back almost half of it, so still why is the cost $500K so extreme? If $30K ends up costing me half a million, then with the money that's left in there, and continually getting added as I continue to be employed, then do I get to be a millionaire when I retire??

and again, so say an average mortgage rate is in the 4% range, then wouldnt it be wiser (from the investment standpoint) to just add that extra $30K to your mortgage?

of course obvious reason to not do that is due to increasing your monthly payment, but a 401K loan is an extra $450 a month out of my paycheck. So if I can avoid that and somehow my monthly mortgage is around $450 more, it should technically be smarter? And then I can always refinance in 6 years as long as I approach my monthly mortgage with an attitude of me paying back an imaginary extra loan?

but again leads to the next problem, not taking out the extra $30K means I can only afford to put around a 10% down payment on a place as opposed to a 20%, and I'm unsure if anyone would be willing to even sell me a place with only a 10% down :(
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,407
even if you're removing principal, it's a loan so you begin paying it back immediately. In 3 years you should have paid back almost half of it, so still why is the cost $500K so extreme?

The money you spend paying off the principal and interest on the loan is money that you could have otherwise used for retirement contributions if you hadn't taken out the loan. At the end of 6 years, your account is ($30K + loan interest + missed growth) lower than it would have been if you had directed all of your money toward retirement contributions instead of taking out the loan.

We cannot know that value exactly, because we don't know how much the stock market will grow during the 6 year period. For the sake of the argument, let's say it's $50K. A couple more assumptions: say you are 40 years from retirement now, and that we expect a 6.5% real return on the stock market (which is the historical median long-term return).

The calculation for the opportunity cost would be:
$50K * (1.065^34) = $425K

So you can see it is in the same ballpark as their result. With slight changes in assumptions you could get $500K as the result.

Now there is a pretty big asterisk I want to put on this number (aside from the fact that it is based on assumptions): It is *only* based on the change in your retirement account. It does not account for the equity in the house, or any differences in mortgage / property tax versus rent. Let's assume that your housing related costs are equal whether your rent or buy to simply things. That is a very important assumption, so you should adjust your thinking based on the relative cost of rent vs mortgage + property tax + maintenance costs in your area.

Houses have historically appreciated at a rate of 1%. If we use the standard 20% downpayment, then a $30K downpayment would equate to a $150K house (ignoring closing costs). Its value after 40 years is:
$150K * (1.01^40) = $223K.

Plus you will not have had to pay your mortgage for the last 10 years. Let's say that amounts to $77K to bring the "buy a house" option up to a round $300K.

So now the difference using my calculations is $425K vs $300K, which is not quite so big as before. And with the house option, you can continue living in the house in retirement. So it's not like it is a slam dunk argument to say that you shouldn't buy the house. And there are a lot of simplifying assumptions being made here that could shift the calculus either way. The point I would make is that there are a lot of people out there who believe that buying a house is a no-brainer financial decision that is guaranteed to save you lots of money in the long run. That is not true. It is entirely possible that it will be a breakeven decision or that you will even lose money. Therefore, I believe that the decision about whether or not to buy vs rent is something you should do based on lifestyle considerations rather than financial ones.
 

jstevenson

Developer at Insomniac Games
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,042
Burbank CA
The money you spend paying off the principal and interest on the loan is money that you could have otherwise used for retirement contributions if you hadn't taken out the loan. At the end of 6 years, your account is ($30K + loan interest + missed growth) lower than it would have been if you had directed all of your money toward retirement contributions instead of taking out the loan.

We cannot know that value exactly, because we don't know how much the stock market will grow during the 6 year period. For the sake of the argument, let's say it's $50K. A couple more assumptions: say you are 40 years from retirement now, and that we expect a 6.5% real return on the stock market (which is the historical median long-term return).

The calculation for the opportunity cost would be:
$50K * (1.065^34) = $425K

So you can see it is in the same ballpark as their result. With slight changes in assumptions you could get $500K as the result.

Now there is a pretty big asterisk I want to put on this number (aside from the fact that it is based on assumptions): It is *only* based on the change in your retirement account. It does not account for the equity in the house, or any differences in mortgage / property tax versus rent. Let's assume that your housing related costs are equal whether your rent or buy to simply things. That is a very important assumption, so you should adjust your thinking based on the relative cost of rent vs mortgage + property tax + maintenance costs in your area.

Houses have historically appreciated at a rate of 1%. If we use the standard 20% downpayment, then a $30K downpayment would equate to a $150K house (ignoring closing costs). Its value after 40 years is:
$150K * (1.01^40) = $223K.

Plus you will not have had to pay your mortgage for the last 10 years. Let's say that amounts to $77K to bring the "buy a house" option up to a round $300K.

So now the difference using my calculations is $425K vs $300K, which is not quite so big as before. And with the house option, you can continue living in the house in retirement. So it's not like it is a slam dunk argument to say that you shouldn't buy the house. And there are a lot of simplifying assumptions being made here that could shift the calculus either way. The point I would make is that there are a lot of people out there who believe that buying a house is a no-brainer financial decision that is guaranteed to save you lots of money in the long run. That is not true. It is entirely possible that it will be a breakeven decision or that you will even lose money. Therefore, I believe that the decision about whether or not to buy vs rent is something you should do based on lifestyle considerations rather than financial ones.

yeah, I think that 500k number is one scenario. You have to evaluate your individual situation.

Say you're already maxing retirement out or something, but perhaps haven't done as good at saving cash, or live in a state where property values make it difficult to get a down payment where you might need (esp in a competitive market). You have plenty of income and can easily afford the mortgage, but need cash to get a loan. You might find it makes sense. (of course it could also put you into a cash-strapped / house-poor situation...)

The real key is understand what the portfolio looks like with that money coming out of it, the long-term effects, as well as the effects on your cash flow to be paying that back each month.

If you understand all of the dynamics (and that may require running numbers YOURSELF, rather than just seeing what some auto thing spits out at you) - you can make a much more informed decision.
 

Jeffapp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,248
so i have a 401k from a previous firm i worked for, the place seems like it's closing within a year and at that time filing for bankruptcy. Should i be worried about the 401k still being in their name? is there a way i can move this?
 

jstevenson

Developer at Insomniac Games
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,042
Burbank CA
so i have a 401k from a previous firm i worked for, the place seems like it's closing within a year and at that time filing for bankruptcy. Should i be worried about the 401k still being in their name? is there a way i can move this?

yeah it's your funds, you should be able to roll it out of there. Contact the 401k administrator (Fidelity or whoever) and figure out the roll over process.

Others here will have advice, but it's likely best to set it up as an independently managed IRA (ie, don't roll it over into your new company --- you'll likely have far better choices in a non corporate sponsored plan). That said, if it's a small amount and it that isn't worth the hassle, you very likely can roll it into your current 401k plan at your current employer.
 

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,601
yeah it's your funds, you should be able to roll it out of there. Contact the 401k administrator (Fidelity or whoever) and figure out the roll over process.

Others here will have advice, but it's likely best to set it up as an independently managed IRA (ie, don't roll it over into your new company --- you'll likely have far better choices in a non corporate sponsored plan). That said, if it's a small amount and it that isn't worth the hassle, you very likely can roll it into your current 401k plan at your current employer.

I've seen some plans not allow rollovers from outside.

If this is is the case then roll it into an ira.