Transgender 101

Deleted member 932 · Feb 25, 2018

I've read online that the first physical effects of HRT usually manifest themselves after 2 months circa. I've also read that people who are questioning their gender might consider taking low dose hormones just for two weeks or so, because the mental changes (sorry, this may be the wrong way of putting it; changes in the mood perhaps?) happen much sooner and that would allow them to consider whether HRT is right for them without incurring in physical effects that cannot be reversed. Do you think that such a short period of time would be actually helpful in assessing whether HRT is right for someone or not?

collige · Feb 25, 2018

legacyzero said:
That's my feeling on it. Particularly for dead-naming, it feels almost as if I'm supposed to be mentally deleting that person's existence. And particularly in the context of my original post, it almost feels disrespectful to that person more than it feels respectful. That person had a name, before they transitioned. Why does it feel terrible to me to not acknowledge that name, and celebrate that they successfully transitioned away from it.

What's there to celebrate? Unless you're talking about someone who was a public persona pre-transition, the identity that was forced on to them by their parents is really none of your business

B4mv · Feb 25, 2018

Learned something, didn't know the name for the term deadnaming.

I honestly struggled with that when my friend/room mate began transitioning,l. Not because I don't understand or wanted to be disrespectful, I always corrected myself instantly. I just knew her for 15 years pre-transition and had to break through that mentally. Now she's just Julia, I have to think about who she was.

excelsiorlef · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
I don't think that's entirely true. I've spoken to five friends in the last half an hour about this, and none of them associate being male as some ethereal feeling. Statically, six out of six men are not going to have female brains in male bodies.

It's almost like not having a mind and body mismatch doesn't result in folks really pondering their gender identity.

aerie · Feb 25, 2018

Great thread, i remember you saying the other day you were putting this together, i've been looking forward to reading it. Thanks.

legacyzero · Feb 25, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
Do you know understand it is inappropriate and disrespectful to deadname when it can avoided?

Absolutely. I didn't understand with my first post, for clear reasons, but it makes sense why

Geirskogul · Feb 25, 2018

hurroocane said:
#1 I've often read about people being (understandably) very scared of gender reassignment surgery. Are there people who just stick to hormones and never go through with the surgery since the hormone part supposedly already gives great relief to dysphoria (that may be totally wrong I just heard it a bunch of times)?

The first thing to keep in mind is that the surgery is very expensive and rarely covered by insurance. It will cost you about 15k-25k to get it done in Thailand, and closer to 40k-50k to get in done in the United States (that said there is no reason to get the surgery done in the U.S if you're paying out of pocket, as the Thai doctors are the best in the world). While there are some people who are willingly non-op, most would like to have the surgery, but simply cannot afford it.

Additionally, its a very serious surgery that has a tremendous amount of post-care treatment required. (we're talking 2-4 hours a day for the first year after the operation spent on dilation). Complications are common and its not rare at all to need a follow-up surgery a year down the line. For many people other non-op people the risks simply outweigh the gain, and others just aren't satisfied with the current limitations of the surgery.

StuBurns · Feb 25, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
It's almost like not having a mind and body mismatch doesn't result in folks really pondering their gender identity.

But the person I was responding to was suggesting just that. That if you don't inherently feel male or female it's because you're misaligned. I was just saying I don't believe that to be the case. Wasn't meant to be critical.

Lord Thrappleper the 49th · Feb 25, 2018

MiraculousSwidge said:
Transpeople have a mismatch of body and mind. It's more complicated than that, certainly, but it's the easiest 'simple' way of thinking of it. When a trans person undergoes puberty as a teen, they are undergoing the puberty of the sex they don't identify as. This causes discomfort to a massive degree, speaking from my own experience. At least in my own experience, I'm bitter that I had to go through it at all. "Second puberty" is a term you'll see thrown around by transfolk because, well, when you begin transitioning that is what you are experiencing.

But that leads me back to pondering my original question of why does the opposite gender entice people? What does it mean to be a man or a woman, and why do so many people go through such pain trying to figure that out?

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
I don't think that's entirely true. I've spoken to five friends in the last half an hour about this, and none of them associate being male as some ethereal feeling. Statically, six out of six men are not going to have female brains in male bodies.

Cis people usually don't consider the idea that they could maybe be trans. Gay dudes typically don't consider the idea that they could like women.

GameShrink · Feb 25, 2018

Here's a tough one I encountered recently while counseling at a college:

Tom, a straight cis male, is dating Kieran, a gay trans man. Tom adores Kieran's masculine personality, as well as his very androgynous look. Because Kieran was "born female," Tom does not feel like dating him must be different from dating a woman. Tom has said that he has no attraction towards cis men, only women and androgynous trans men.

Kieran describes Tom as the best boyfriend he's ever had, but is concerned that Tom does not "view him as a real man." Tom refuses to identify as gay, something that Kieran really wants. Tom believes that Kieran should worry less about labels, and feels that Kieran is projecting his insecurity about his gender identity onto him. Kieran believes that Tom is either "in the closet," or still sees him as a "masculine woman."

Curious what people would have done in my shoes. How would you mediate this relationship?

excelsiorlef · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
But the person I was responding to was suggesting just that. That if you don't inherently feel male or female it's because you're misaligned. I was just saying I don't believe that to be the case. Wasn't meant to be critical.

I do think you over simplify when you say you think if you woke up tomorrow a woman nothing would change for you.

But then again if it doesn't maybe you're more gender fluid then Cis.... Who knows.

StuBurns · Feb 25, 2018

MiraculousSwidge said:
Cis people usually don't consider the idea that they could maybe be trans. Gay dudes typically don't consider the idea that they could like women.

I seriously don't get that second part. How do you have to consider if you're attracted to people or not? It takes no thought. You see a person and you feel something or you don't. It's wholly automated.

excelsiorlef said:
I do think you over simplify when you say you think if you woke up tomorrow a woman nothing would change for you.

But then again if it doesn't maybe you're more gender fluid then Cis.... Who knows.

I didn't say nothing would change. I said I don't believe I would 'feel' different.

I guess I want to know what the intrinsic experience of being male or female is. What does feeling like a man or a woman mean to people?

excelsiorlef · Feb 25, 2018

GameShrink said:
Here's a tough one I encountered recently while counseling at a college:

Tom, a straight cis male, is dating Kieran, a gay trans man. Tom adores Kieran's masculine personality, as well as his very androgynous look. Because Kieran was "born female," Tom does not feel like dating him must be different from dating a woman. Tom has said that he has no attraction towards cis men, only women and androgynous trans men.

Kieran describes Tom as the best boyfriend he's ever had, but is concerned that Tom does not "view him as a real man." Tom refuses to identify as gay, something that Kieran really wants. Tom believes that Kieran should worry less about labels, and feels that Kieran is projecting his insecurity about his gender identity onto him. Kieran believes that Tom is either "in the closet," or still sees him as a "masculine woman."

Curious what people would have done in my shoes. How would you mediate this relationship?

On the surface.... sounds like one doomed to fail.

Kieran from your description of all these events is almost certainly bang on that Tom doesn't see him as a real man

Conversely Kieran shouldn't be expecting Tom to identify as gay

It would be possible for Tom to not be gay, still see Kieran as a man and for them to date... but I don't think that's going to happen just based on what you've described.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 25, 2018

GameShrink said:
Here's a tough one I encountered recently while counseling at a college:

Tom, a straight cis male, is dating Kieran, a gay trans man. Tom adores Kieran's masculine personality, as well as his very androgynous look. Because Kieran was "born female," Tom does not feel like dating him must be different from dating a woman. Tom has said that he has no attraction towards cis men, only women and androgynous trans men.

Kieran describes Tom as the best boyfriend he's ever had, but is concerned that Tom does not "view him as a real man." Tom refuses to identify as gay, something that Kieran really wants. Tom believes that Kieran should worry less about labels, and feels that Kieran is projecting his insecurity about his gender identity onto him. Kieran believes that Tom is either "in the closet," or still sees him as a "masculine woman."

Curious what people would have done in my shoes. How would you mediate this relationship?

This sounds like a relationship where both people involved are expecting things of the other that are unlikely to happen. Tom doesn't have to identify as anything, but is very much engaging in transphobic thought, whether they realize it or not.

excelsiorlef · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
I didn't say nothing would change. I said I don't believe I would 'feel' different.

That's what i meant by change... I think it's far to simple to just say you wouldn't feel different... again unless you are actually gender fluid on some level but even then.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
I seriously don't get that second part. How do you have to consider if you're attracted to people or not? It takes no thought. You see a person and you feel something or you don't. It's wholly automated.

Really? You have never encountered anyone questioning their sexuality?

Vivian · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
But the person I was responding to was suggesting just that. That if you don't inherently feel male or female it's because you're misaligned. I was just saying I don't believe that to be the case. Wasn't meant to be critical.

Sorry, I phrased that badly. 'Cis people don't think that way' was in connection to 'I would prefer to wake up as a woman'. Obviously cis people don't have to feel a connection to their gender. My bad about the confusion!

Ketkat · Feb 25, 2018

Lord Thrappleper the 49th said:
But that leads me back to pondering my original question of why does the opposite gender entice people? What does it mean to be a man or a woman, and why do so many people go through such pain trying to figure that out?

You need to understand that gender dysphoria is a real thing. We have doctors that can diagnose it, and we know that transitioning is the cure for it.

FairFriend said:
I've read online that the first physical effects of HRT usually manifest themselves after 2 months circa. I've also read that people who are questioning their gender might consider taking low dose hormones just for two weeks or so, because the mental changes (sorry, this may be the wrong way of putting it; changes in the mood perhaps?) happen much sooner and that would allow them to consider whether HRT is right for them without incurring in physical effects that cannot be reversed. Do you think that such a short period of time would be actually helpful in assessing whether HRT is right for someone or not?

The mental effects are definitely noticeable early on. But there's no guarantee of when you'll get physical effects, so it does carry a small amount of risk to it.

Deleted member 932 · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
I guess I want to know what the intrinsic experience of being male or female is. What does feeling like a man or a woman mean to people?

If you identify either as a man or a woman you should already know that, no? I think it's something very visceral and personal, that is difficult to put into words. If someone doesn't feel strongly about gender, like you do if I understand correctly, perhaps that person may not be cis after all. I'm confident if I asked some of my friends whether they would be ok if tomorrow they woke up as women when they are AMAB (assigned male at birth) I think they'd immediately reject the idea. So perhaps, while it is difficult to give a proper answer, one can go in the opposite way, that of contemplating what it would mean to find oneself in the wrong body. Which, by the way, is why I personally dislike movies like "Your Name", which really trivializes this sort of thought experiments.

Renna Hazel · Feb 25, 2018

MiraculousSwidge said:
Really? You have never encountered anyone questioning their sexuality?

We all probably have, but my friends were never open about it so we never really see the process. People think "wow he became gay overnight"

StuBurns · Feb 25, 2018

MiraculousSwidge said:
Really? You have never encountered anyone questioning their sexuality?

I've known gay and bisexual people, of course, but never at the point in which they were questioning, or if they ever were, no.

Again, I don't know what that means, it's so automatic to me. Someone posts a GIF of Ariana Grande riding a bike and it has an immediate affect. There's no conscious processing involved. And I imagine if I found a man attractive, the process would be the same, I don't know why it wouldn't. I don't have to 'work' at being attracted.

There's a phrase, in the UK at least, 'the double take', it's when you walk down the street, and in the fraction of a second, you see someone you find attractive, so you look back at them (hence the double take), and it's that quick, it's that natural, it's that automatic. It's inherent in my experience of the world. The same way I know what being hungry feels like or whatever. It don't have to be aware of the process, the feeling is automatically translated into the perception.

Poxer · Feb 25, 2018

Lord Thrappleper the 49th said:
But that leads me back to pondering my original question of why does the opposite gender entice people? What does it mean to be a man or a woman, and why do so many people go through such pain trying to figure that out?

Trans people are born trans. They're born as their actual gender, and not as their supposed physical sex. Nothing entices nobody.

SweetNicole · Feb 25, 2018

Renna Hazel said:
We all probably have, but my friends were never open about it so we never really see the process. People think "wow he became gay overnight"

Some people still think it works like this...

Deleted member 835 · Feb 25, 2018

Poxer said:
Trans people are born trans. They're born as their actual gender, and not as their supposed physical sex. Nothing entices nobody.

This

Why so many trans people denied what they need attempt suicide. Being a trans person isn't a sudden or short term thought

StuBurns · Feb 25, 2018

FairFriend said:
If you identify either as a man or a woman you should already know that, no? I think it's something very visceral and personal, that is difficult to put into words. If someone doesn't feel strongly about gender, like you do if I understand correctly, perhaps that person may not be cis after all. I'm confident if I asked some of my friends whether they would be ok if tomorrow they woke up as women when they are AMAB (assigned male at birth) I think they'd immediately reject the idea. So perhaps, while it is difficult to give a proper answer, one can go in the opposite way, that of contemplating what it would mean to find oneself in the wrong body. Which, by the way, is why I personally dislike movies like "Your Name", which really trivializes this sort of thought experiments.

No, because I identify as a male because there's nothing to suggest otherwise. I have a male body, and that's never felt wrong or anything. I've been comfortable with it (beside for awhile being fat, and I don't like that my nose is kind of big) my entire life. And yeah, I mostly like things that people associate with as defaulting in men, video games, rock music, women, fast cars, etc. But those things aren't really 'male' at all. I don't play an action game and think "this is a male activity", I never consider my gender at all. That's a far cry from feeling impassioned about being male.

If it's just down to 'you just know', then I find that a deeply unfulfilling answer. People say that about love, but it's not true. Being in love has profound impact on the person. They feel butterflies, they can't stop thinking about the person, they have an emptiness that's filled by their presence (at least, during limerence). It's a tangible experience. For me, being 'male' is not one beyond the physical aspects. It's not 'visceral' at all.

So I want to know what it is. What someone who's transitioned felt was wrong if it's not a physical thing. I know, that's a lot to ask, but that was what I was asking.

Vivian · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
I've known gay and bisexual people, of course, but never at the point in which they were questioning, or if they ever were, no.

Again, I don't know what that means, it's so automatic to me. Someone posts a GIF of Ariana Grande riding a bike and it has an immediate affect. There's no conscious processing involved. And I imagine if I found a man attractive, the process would be the same, I don't know why it wouldn't. I don't have to 'work' at being attracted.

There's a phrase, in the UK at least, 'the double take', it's when you walk down the street, and in the fraction of a second, you see someone you find attractive, so you look back at them (hence the double take), and it's that quick, it's that natural, it's that automatic. It's inherent in my experience of the world. The same way I know what being hungry feels like or whatever. It don't have to be aware of the process, the feeling is automatically translated into the perception.

I think you're oversimplifying it a lot. One of my closest friends is bi, and she didn't realise until her 20s that her feelings towards certain women weren't I want to be her but I want to bang her. And I'm the other way - before, I thought that my feelings towards women were I want to bang her, but now that I've realised that those were I want to be her, I'm re-evaluating my sexuality too. Am I sexually attracted to women? Could I be sexually attracted to men? I can't say for certain.

Renna Hazel · Feb 25, 2018

SweetNicole said:
Some people still think it works like this...

I'll never understand people that think like this. I was probably around 6 when I first saw two men kissing in public and asked my mother why they were doing that. She told me they were gay and I said OK. That's was the end of it.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
No, because I identify as a male because there's nothing to suggest otherwise. I have a male body, and that's never felt wrong or anything. I've been comfortable with it (beside for awhile being fat, and I don't like that my nose is kind of big) my entire life. And yeah, I mostly like things that people associate with as defaulting in men, video games, rock music, women, fast cars, etc. But those things aren't really 'male' at all. I don't play an action game and think "this is a male activity", I never consider my gender at all. That's a far cry from feeling impassioned about being male.

If it's just down to 'you just know', then I find that a deeply unfulfilling answer. People say that about love, but it's not true. Being in love has profound impact on the person. They feel butterflies, they can't stop thinking about the person, they have an emptiness that's filled by their presence (at least, during limerence). It's a tangible experience. For me, being 'male' is not one beyond the physical aspects. It's not 'visceral' at all.

So I want to know what it is. What someone who's transitioned felt was wrong if it's not a physical thing. I know, that's a lot to ask, but that was what I was asking.

The earliest I remember feeling like I was trans was in the 3rd or 4th grade. I distinctly remember thinking "I want to be her" about a girl I knew. It wasn't something I really thought about at the time, it was just a fact. Later on, the dysphoria came. I was disgusted with my body (still am) and didn't see myself at all.

StuBurns · Feb 25, 2018

Vivian said:
I think you're oversimplifying it a lot. One of my closest friends is bi, and she didn't realise until her 20s that her feelings towards certain women weren't I want to be her but I want to bang her. And I'm the other way - before, I thought that my feelings towards women were I want to bang her, but now that I've realised that those were I want to be her, I'm re-evaluating my sexuality too. Am I sexually attracted to women? Could I be sexually attracted to men? I can't say for certain.

I promise you, I am in no way oversimplifying my experience of attraction. For example, I saw the video Havana for the first time today, (which is why I mentioned it in an earlier post), and it was an instant experience, like "Holy fuck that woman is staggeringly attractive". The 'concept' of my attraction arrives the same time as it takes me to know I saw her. It's literally instant in terms of my perception, so like less than 20ms.

But your post is fascinating to me.

This is very personal, so obviously, feel free to tell me to fuck off, but what about erotic thoughts? What about arousal? What about pleasuring yourself? Surely there are physical bodies involved in those processes, and you know if they're male or female.

Deleted member 932 · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
No, because I identify as a male because there's nothing to suggest otherwise. I have a male body, and that's never felt wrong or anything. I've been comfortable with it (beside for awhile being fat, and I don't like that my nose is kind of big) my entire life. And yeah, I mostly like things that people associate with as defaulting in men, video games, rock music, women, fast cars, etc. But those things aren't really 'male' at all. I don't play an action game and think "this is a male activity", I never consider my gender at all. That's a far cry from feeling impassioned about being male.

If it's just down to 'you just know', then I find that a deeply unfulfilling answer. People say that about love, but it's not true. Being in love has profound impact on the person. They feel butterflies, they can't stop thinking about the person, they have an emptiness that's filled by their presence (at least, during limerence). It's a tangible experience. For me, being 'male' is not one beyond the physical aspects. It's not 'visceral' at all.

So I want to know what it is. What someone who's transitioned felt was wrong if it's not a physical thing. I know, that's a lot to ask, but that was what I was asking.

Well, firstly it seems to me that you are conflating gender with gender expression (i.e. liking fast cars) and sexual orientation (i.e. being attracted to women). Perhaps it would be better not to think about those things at all for the time being.
Secondly, as I wrote in my previous answer, why don't you try to picture what it would mean for you to find yourself in a woman's body? Of course someone who's not a woman can't possibly contemplate all the implications, but I think you still might realize that, overall, that would be an uncomfortable experience for you. If you come to that conclusion then there is clearly something that makes us feel a man, a woman etc., though that something might be difficult to grasp and put into words. What I'm confident about is that it doesn't have anything to do with the stuff that you mentioned.

Ketkat · Feb 25, 2018

If anyone's interested in learning more and have some time on your hands, someone recommended to me a great documentary on all of this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u3YO2CJNcg
Or if that doesn't work for you, they have it on their facebook: https://www.facebook.com/katiecouric/videos/10154790608436005/

Deleted member 8861 · Feb 25, 2018

Thank you for taking the time and effort to educate.

Angie · Feb 25, 2018

Ketkat said:
If anyone's interested in learning more and have some time on your hands, someone recommended to me a great documentary on all of this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u3YO2CJNcg
Or if that doesn't work for you, they have it on their facebook: https://www.facebook.com/katiecouric/videos/10154790608436005/

Can I recomend this video?

One of the best videos I seen on this subject.

StuBurns · Feb 25, 2018

FairFriend said:
Secondly, as I wrote in my previous answer, why don't you try to picture what it would mean for you to find yourself in a woman's body? Of course someone who's not a woman can't possibly contemplate all the implications, but I think you still might realize that, overall, that would be an uncomfortable experience for you. If you come to that conclusion then there is clearly something that makes us feel a man, a woman etc., though that something might be difficult to grasp and put into words. What I'm confident about is that it doesn't have anything to do with the stuff that you mentioned.

Well, the whole 'wake up as a woman' thing is too flippant to be fair. Like the context of that inherently means huge repercussions. Am I still me? With my family? Why did this happen? Have I lost my mind, etc. So ignoring the practical aspects of that. All a person really is is a point of perception, when you strip away the physical, and your interactions with others, and your identity, and your place within society, you're just a point of perception, around six feet off the ground. That's it. If you ever try meditation, it's about stripping back the experience of relentless thoughts in order to experience pure perception/conciseness, and it has no gender. It's not even innately human. It's just a point in space that's perceiving the Universe. Everything else is a construction. A facade.

This idea that someone 'wants' to be a person of the opposite sex, I can see what people mean, but what do they want? They want to look like that person? That's completely physical, that's nothing to do with her perception as a human woman. It's nothing intrinsic in the female experience, because viewing her, you're not experiencing that 'feeling' at all.

Poxer · Feb 25, 2018

Angie22 said:
Can I recomend this video?

One of the best videos I seen on this subject.

It's REALLY good, I recommend it too.

Couscous · Feb 25, 2018

Thanks, a great and informative read! The numbers of harrasment and unemployment are very concerning. Perhaps society is not yet ready for transgenders, which is quite a shame imo. I don't understand why you wouldn't accept people's choices on such a matter.

SweetNicole · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
Well, the whole 'wake up as a woman' thing is too flippant to be fair. Like the context of that inherently means huge repercussions. Am I still me? With my family? Why did this happen? Have I lost my mind, etc. So ignoring the practical aspects of that. All a person really is is a point of perception, when you strip away the physical, and your interactions with others, and your identity, and your place within society, you're just a point of perception, around six feet off the ground. That's it. If you ever try meditation, it's about stripping back the experience of relentless thoughts in order to experience pure perception/conciseness, and it has no gender. It's not even innately human. It's just a point in space that's perceiving the Universe. Everything else is a construction. A facade.

While I think your intentions are earnest, no one is going to engage with you when you've got this mindset. Saying "if you think about we're just space dust floating around" is one of the silliest responses you could have to that honest question asked of you. If you don't want to do the thought exercise or aren't interested in doing so, this thread isn't for you.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 25, 2018

Couscous said:
Thanks, a great and informative read! The numbers of harrasment and unemployment are very concerning. Perhaps society is not yet ready for transgenders, which is quite a shame imo. I don't understand why you wouldn't accept people's choices on such a matter.

Transgender people. Transgenders is not the correvc terminology. Not trying to be a dick, just wanted to correct you.

Deleted member 932 · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
Well, the whole 'wake up as a woman' thing is too flippant to be fair. Like the context of that inherently means huge repercussions. Am I still me? With my family? Why did this happen? Have I lost my mind, etc. So ignoring the practical aspects of that. All a person really is is a point of perception, when you strip away the physical, and your interactions with others, and your identity, and your place within society, you're just a point of perception, around six feet off the ground. That's it. If you ever try meditation, it's about stripping back the experience of relentless thoughts in order to experience pure perception/conciseness, and it has no gender. It's not even innately human. It's just a point in space that's perceiving the Universe. Everything else is a construction. A facade.

This idea that someone 'wants' to be a person of the opposite sex, I can see what people mean, but what do they want? They want to look like that person? That's completely physical, that's nothing to do with her perception as a human woman. It's nothing intrinsic in the female experience, because viewing her, you're not experiencing that 'feeling' at all.

Yes, it is a scenario difficult to imagine, but some of your rhetoric questions are a little bit preposterous, if you don't mind my saying that. Am I still me? Well, yes, I would say so, but perhaps you feel differently. With my family? Yes, who doesn't acknowledge you are a man though. Why did this happen? Have I lost my mind? It's just a thought experiment, the why is inessential.

Couscous · Feb 25, 2018

MiraculousSwidge said:
Transgender people. Transgenders is not the correvc terminology. Not trying to be a dick, just wanted to correct you.

No problem. We always say transgenders in Dutch, so I assumed it would be the same in English.

excelsiorlef · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
Well, the whole 'wake up as a woman' thing is too flippant to be fair. Like the context of that inherently means huge repercussions. Am I still me? With my family? Why did this happen? Have I lost my mind, etc. So ignoring the practical aspects of that. All a person really is is a point of perception, when you strip away the physical, and your interactions with others, and your identity, and your place within society, you're just a point of perception, around six feet off the ground. That's it. If you ever try meditation, it's about stripping back the experience of relentless thoughts in order to experience pure perception/conciseness, and it has no gender. It's not even innately human. It's just a point in space that's perceiving the Universe. Everything else is a construction. A facade.

This idea that someone 'wants' to be a person of the opposite sex, I can see what people mean, but what do they want? They want to look like that person? That's completely physical, that's nothing to do with her perception as a human woman. It's nothing intrinsic in the female experience, because viewing her, you're not experiencing that 'feeling' at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

I'd suggest you read about David Reimer if you are attempting to make an argument that we are all gender tabula rasa... and if that is not your intent know that it sure as hell comes off that way,

PersonAndStuff · Feb 25, 2018

Damn, David Reimer is pretty damn depressing story.

excelsiorlef · Feb 25, 2018

PersonAndStuff said:
Damn, David Reimer is pretty damn depressing story.

It's a horrific story.

StuBurns · Feb 25, 2018

FairFriend said:
Yes, it is a scenario difficult to imagine, but some of your rhetoric questions are a little bit preposterous, if you don't mind my saying that. Am I still me? Well, yes, I would say so, but perhaps you feel differently. With my family? Yes, who doesn't acknowledge you are a man though. Why did this happen? Have I lost my mind? It's just a thought experiment, the why is inessential.

I mean literally over night. Like if I went to bed tonight and woke up as a woman, it would have colossal repercussions, so obviously I wouldn't 'feel the same'. My entire perception of the possibilities of reality would be shattered, because that couldn't happen. And I wouldn't choose to transition just to see if I felt different.

But beyond that, I don't understand the premise, because if it's that male brains are born within female bodies, and vice versa, I wouldn't 'feel' different, right? I'd already be feeling inherently female. I'd just feel that my physical body has been aligned with where I already was psychologically, or am I missing the point?

SugarNoodles · Feb 25, 2018

The concept of gender being a spectrum always seemed somewhat contradictory to the idea of being transgender. That stopped mattering to me when I realized that I dont need to fully understand things like this in order to respect the the validity of them.

That being said, I'm still confused by the juxtaposition of sex reassignment surgery and the idea that genitals have no bearing on gender. I remember reading a few years ago about a trans person who said that they didnt see the point in sex reassignment surgery as it would just be for the sake of other people.

Deleted member 932 · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
I mean literally over night. Like if I went to bed tonight and woke up as a woman, it would have colossal repercussions, so obviously I wouldn't 'feel the same'. My entire perception of the possibilities of reality would be shattered, because that couldn't happen. And I wouldn't choose to transition just to see if I felt different.

But beyond that, I don't understand the premise, because if it's that male brains are born within female bodies, and vice versa, I wouldn't 'feel' different, right? I'd already be feeling inherently female. I'd just feel that my physical body has been aligned with where I already was psychologically, or am I missing the point?

The premise is that you, StuBurns, with the brain of a man, so to say, starting tomorrow finds himself in a woman's body, and there's nothing he can do about it, short of transitioning. No one is aware that in fact you are a man and that once you used to have a male body.

Kaywee · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
I mean literally over night. Like if I went to bed tonight and woke up as a woman, it would have colossal repercussions, so obviously I wouldn't 'feel the same'. My entire perception of the possibilities of reality would be shattered, because that couldn't happen. And I wouldn't choose to transition just to see if I felt different.

But beyond that, I don't understand the premise, because if it's that male brains are born within female bodies, and vice versa, I wouldn't 'feel' different, right? I'd already be feeling inherently female. I'd just feel that my physical body has been aligned with where I already was psychologically, or am I missing the point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw5vyJ30djM She explains gender dysphoria

Ketkat · Feb 25, 2018

StuBurns said:
I mean literally over night. Like if I went to bed tonight and woke up as a woman, it would have colossal repercussions, so obviously I wouldn't 'feel the same'. My entire perception of the possibilities of reality would be shattered, because that couldn't happen. And I wouldn't choose to transition just to see if I felt different.

But beyond that, I don't understand the premise, because if it's that male brains are born within female bodies, and vice versa, I wouldn't 'feel' different, right? I'd already be feeling inherently female. I'd just feel that my physical body has been aligned with where I already was psychologically, or am I missing the point?

I feel like you're trying to be obtuse at this point. The idea behind what they're saying to do is to imagine that your body changed. Even if it wasn't overnight, it slowly changed into that of a woman's. Can imagine what your reactions would be to that? How comfortable would you be? The point isn't to try and bring up some weird metaphysical experience, but to try and imagine yourself in the shoes of someone who is transgender.

SugarNoodles said:
The concept of gender being a spectrum always seemed somewhat contradictory to the idea of being transgender. That stopped mattering to me when I realized that I dont need to fully understand things like this in order to respect the the validity of them.

That being said, I'm still confused by the juxtaposition of sex reassignment surgery and the idea that genitals have no bearing on gender. I remember reading a few years ago about a trans person who said that they didnt see the point in sex reassignment surgery as it would just be for the sake of other people.

Gender being a spectrum isn't contradictory to being transgender at all. Sexuality is a spectrum as well, yet it doesn't invalidate any of the sexual identities that exist.

Some people have genital dysphoria, and they want that fixed. Some people just want to change things down there for convenience. Some people aren't satisfied with the surgeries/can't afford them/just don't care. But, no matter what's in someone's pants, that doesn't affect who they are as a person.

StuBurns · Feb 25, 2018

FairFriend said:
The premise is that you, StuBurns, with the brain of a man, so to say, starting tomorrow finds himself in a woman's body, and there's nothing he can do about it, short of transitioning. No one is aware that in fact you are a man and that once you used to have a male body.

But again, that's impossible. No one is aware means everyone remembers me always having been a woman, so I'd presume I'd lost my mind.

Let's ignore that however, just I slip into a parallel universe where I was born a woman, and it's more or less the same as ours, and my consciousness is exchanged with Stewiena's. There's nothing about being male that I see as not from how people react to you, and your physical body. So no, I don't believe 'I' would feel any different. I would eventually change, because people would see me as a woman, and your personality is shaped by those around you, and people tend to be friends with people of their own gender, so presumably over time, I would be friends with more women, and I'd indulge in activities that are more traditionally seen as female, but my basic experience of reality wouldn't change. I don't think so. There is nothing 'male' about my human experience that's not tied to my body that I can think of.

Ketkat said:
I feel like you're trying to be obtuse at this point.

I was certainly not trying to be, but alas, clearly this conversation isn't going to progress in a way that's going to be beneficial for anyone, so I'll leave. Sorry if I offended anyone.

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