Shadow of the Colossus |OT| On the Shoulders of Giants

Jawmuncher · Feb 18, 2018

potatohead said:
This is like the universal I am bad at analog controls and videogames telegraph at this point

I wouldn't go that far. Ueda games in general have that special little air about them when it comes to the controls. They're obviously a design choice, but I wouldn't say that means those having trouble are bad at games. That's a pretty large spectrum to just throw blindly after all.

Jedi2016 · Feb 18, 2018

To give an idea of how the horse is supposed to control, I pointed Agro at a chasm, put the controller down, and left the room yesterday for a couple minutes to take a leak and get something to drink. Agro was right where I expected her to be (and still going) when I got back.

Guide the horse. Don't try to control it.

potatohead · Feb 18, 2018

Jawmuncher said:
I wouldn't go that far. Ueda games in general have that special little air about them when it comes to the controls. They're obviously a design choice, but I wouldn't say that means those having trouble are bad at games. That's a pretty large spectrum to just throw blindly after all.

Maybe but I don't think so inaccurate. I'd like to see what is actually happening at the points they feel the controls are bad and where they get frustrated would be interesting to see them describe it with video context and timestamps but likely no one will waste time doing that

The way people talk about agro is similar it's a horse not a car all you have to do is point it sometimes or let it walk or jog in denser areas

Until then the blanket criticism might be harsh but I don't think as inaccurate as you say

Might be unweildly or airy as you so but certainly not difficult to come to grips with pun intended I've seen how lay people control agro and do the camera control in climbing so ive seen the extremes of good and bad experiences and wielding and it's a mess but that's generally no fault of the game from what I've seen and I've seen the same people manipulate far more difficult games from older systems like spyro and syphon filter where camera systems in that time were guaranteed variable and anachronistic

It's not a flight simulator difficulty not expecting that much out of a forumite but it's certainly not difficult or shouldn't be for someone who has reasonable control over a dual analog stick setup

It's more about letting yourself understand the controls rather than forcing your own ideas on how it might control and that applies to atypical control schemes in general

Indy in the Fridge · Feb 18, 2018

Do you have to hold triangle to get Argo to move at top speed? I keep imagining it's like a fan speed toggle that has 3 settings

potatohead · Feb 18, 2018

Indy in the Fridge said:
Do you have to hold triangle to get Argo to move at top speed? I keep imagining it's like a fan speed toggle that has 3 settings

If you are on a straight path he will sprint for a while

If you tur. Without holding run he will return to jog

If you turn with holding run he keeps sprinting

Don't run in tight spaces obviously

Deleted member 4869 · Feb 18, 2018

Birdseye said:
I've ragequit at the seventh boss. The electricity damage is too high so I don't have time to land even one stab.

Dude, what...?

You are aware that you are supposed to disable those things before proceeding, correct? What's the issue?

MoonsaultSlayer · Feb 18, 2018

Agro will still slow down even while holding. So another tap ("hyuh") is needed to pick up the pace.

The only time Agro might annoy me is when time is tight on Time Attack. But that's because I'll do something like miss a jump onto 13 and want Agro back to me immediately lol.
But never while just playing.

Deleted member 15428 · Feb 18, 2018

Ishida said:
Dude, what...? Why are you even getting close to its lightning rods?

You are aware that you are supposed to disable those things before proceeding, correct? What's the issue?

Well, I have to get close at some point to get to the boss' head, it's not like I can just swim to it...? Also, the weak point is just next to a lightning rod.

How do I disable them?

Deleted member 4869 · Feb 18, 2018

Birdseye said:
Well, I have to get close at some point to get to the boss' head, it's not like I can just swim to it...?

Before each lightning rod there is a wound that you have to stab in order to stop the electric current.

Once you disable all 3, the boss will remain vulnerable during the rest of the fight.

Stab the weakpoint to disable the lightning rod. You don't need to charge your blow.

MoonsaultSlayer · Feb 18, 2018

Birdseye said:
Well, I have to get close at some point to get to the boss' head, it's not like I can just swim to it...? Also, the weak point is just next to a lightning rod.

You need to quickly jump stab them. They made the fur pattern harder to see but when it's about to dip underwater, you should wait a bit away and then rush it for a jump stab as soon as you and the "lightning spike" are above water.

Deleted member 15428 · Feb 18, 2018

I've just realized you're supposed to disable each rod before moving on to the next. I used tried to get straight to the head so my health would get depleted on my way there... I wish the proper way to kill this boss had been more obvious

breadtruck · Feb 18, 2018

I thoroughly enjoyed my first play-through of this game. I originally was with the camp who said Wander's face is fine, but to be honest, every time I went into photo mode to get a cool shot, Wander ruined it. I typically set the "near blur" to hide him and just focus on the Colossus.

Its not a necessity, but part of me hopes Bluepoint cleans it up in a future update.

jipewithin said:
After 3 bosses I have to say controls and camera are just so insanely bad I can't believe this game has 92 metascore which is the same as Bloodborne. It makes no sense. I understand this might have been great at 2005 but 2018? Come on, this is unacceptable. I seriously think reviews are either paid or heavy nostalgia glasses are at play. I never played this before so I have none of that. HDR and art style is great but it won't help with these controls and camera. I feel so salty buying this and 92 metascore blows my mind. I can't understand what the fuck is going on.

I tried the PS3 remaster, and couldn't do it. The controls were an abomination.
This remake is still a little wonky at times, but once you get used to the concept of holding R2 to grapple, I thought it was totally workable. I just beat this game last night.
The only thing I still hate is the camera, and how it has to constantly recenter.

Honestly, all I can suggest is stick with it a little longer and see if the controls finally "click." By the end of this game I was pretty good at getting to, and then doing, the grappling and climbing deeds needed.

Jedi2016 said:
To give an idea of how the horse is supposed to control, I pointed Agro at a chasm, put the controller down, and left the room yesterday for a couple minutes to take a leak and get something to drink. Agro was right where I expected her to be (and still going) when I got back.

Guide the horse. Don't try to control it.

It took me a while, but once I figured this out, the game became soooooo much more fun to play. Agro clearly doesn't like you controlling him/her, haha

MoonsaultSlayer · Feb 18, 2018

I wonder if shining your sword would have focused at each point.

breadtruck · Feb 18, 2018

tommy7154 said:
Well, this quickly went from my favorite game this year to one of my least favorite games ever.
The last Colossus

What. The. Fuck.

What the fuck?

I never want to play this game again. Climbing Colossus 16 is absolutely not fun in any way shape or form and has ruined the entire rest of the game for me.

I spent over 2+ hours on him last night over 2 attempts (before and after supper.)
I thought his difficulty was scaled way too high compared to the rest of the colossi.

Once I finally figured it all out and finally made it to his weak point, it didnt seem so bad. But wow, was it a pain until that point.

Jack Scofield said:
This game should have ended with the Shrine of Worship transforming into a huge colossi. Such a missed opportunity!

Thats what I totally thought was going to happen as well.

60fps · Feb 18, 2018

jipewithin said:
After 3 bosses I have to say controls and camera are just so insanely bad I can't believe this game has 92 metascore which is the same as Bloodborne. It makes no sense. I understand this might have been great at 2005 but 2018? Come on, this is unacceptable. I seriously think reviews are either paid or heavy nostalgia glasses are at play. I never played this before so I have none of that. HDR and art style is great but it won't help with these controls and camera. I feel so salty buying this and 92 metascore blows my mind. I can't understand what the fuck is going on.

What are you talking about? I finished the remake already and had no problems whatsoever. In fact, Wander controls wonderfully now, keeping the same "weight" as in the original, but with much more responsiveness. Horse is as good/natural/intuitive as ever.

And yes, having the same metascore is mindblowing indeed, because Shadow of the Colossus wipes the floor with Bloodborne (and its jerky framepacing).

VaporSnake · Feb 18, 2018

immsun said:
Ummm sorry. That 92 meta is correct. Unfortunately the problem is you Sir. Its so freaking easy to control camera and controls are fine too.

Can't believe people can't grasp a simple control scheme. Baffling.

Unfortunately it's not baffling, it is frustrating though. The modern gamer is hardwired to expect every game to control vaguely similarly, so when anything breaks that cohesion it's automatically "bad". Games largely used to take risks in the method of control, they often required a dedicated player to actually go through a learning curve just to master something as simple as movement, but now that everything controls the same if anything dares to do something with just a minor bit of learning resistance NOPE, IT'S TERRIBLE! with zero real criticism beyond "it's bad cuz its different" People don't want to go through that learning curve anymore, they want pick up and play.

You'll see the same crap in LTTP: RE4 threads all the time, because people just expect it to play like a modern third person shooter when it really has it's own individual approach that has more in common with a 3D brawler like God Hand than it does with the Gears of War archetype that people expect.

Hell look up what the idiots were saying when Demon Souls first came out "these controls are horrible, why can't it control like X or Y" when we all know those games would be vastly different with a more conventional hack and slash control scheme. It's really the example I think speaks the most volume, just learning the ropes in your first souls game is incredibly satisfying, the controls are foreign and nuanced but once you learn the in's and outs you end up feeling extremely powerful and there's no other experiences in gaming like it. Contrast that to how most modern games start out, you're powerful and capable right out of the gates and everything is automated.

60fps · Feb 18, 2018

VaporSnake said:
Unfortunately it's not baffling, it is frustrating though. The modern gamer is hardwired to expect every game to control vaguely similarly, so when anything breaks that cohesion it's automatically "bad".

Oh yes, you're right. That said, I find the "Classic" controls in the Remake perfect.

ScOULaris · Feb 18, 2018

Man, some of these comments make me feel like it's 2005 all over again. Some people really struggle with SotC for some reason.

Vic Damone Jr. · Feb 18, 2018

ScOULaris said:
Man, some of these comments make me feel like it's 2005 all over again. Some people really struggle with SotC for some reason.

Probably a result of the way games are currently.

I saw someone say you could keep Hydrus from going underwater, is this a glitch?

Bucca · Feb 18, 2018

Why are people having so much trouble on the final colossus...?

He's like one of the most straightforward fights. Like yeah, it's a little annoying to have to climb him again when you get knocked off, but c'mon.

EvanSquared · Feb 18, 2018

MoonsaultSlayer said:
Agro will still slow down even while holding. So another tap ("hyuh") is needed to pick up the pace.

As far as I could tell, if you held down the Agro run button (triangle, with the modern control scheme), he only slowed down if he went through a narrow passage or you ran him into a wall. So I just held down triangle pretty much every time I was on Agro, unless I wanted him to stop.

Bucca said:
Why are people having so much trouble on the final colossus...? He's like one of the most straightforward fights. Like yeah, it's a little annoying to have to climb him again when you get knocked off, but c'mon.

As I pointed out earlier, the "stab him in the hand" mechanic is something you have to learn from outside the game, as there's no clue for that on the Colossus, breaking the rules the game adheres to in every other instance. I literally wasted 20 minutes this most recent time trying to figure out what to do once I got to the right hand, even though I've played the game six or so times; I'd forgotten that, and eventually had to look it up out of frustration. I'm pretty sure the first time I played the game, at release on the PS2, I and a friend spent well over an hour stumped on that.

Additionally, jumping to the hands is a mostly-blind jump, since the hands obscure your view of Wander, and while I think complaints about camera control are mostly overblown and not bothering to work with the game, there's a genuine struggle with the camera and constantly shifting angles on the moving hands there.

Illusion · Feb 18, 2018

Bucca said:
Why are people having so much trouble on the final colossus...?

He's like one of the most straightforward fights. Like yeah, it's a little annoying to have to climb him again when you get knocked off, but c'mon.

Only a few moments I can think of:

1. People are dodge rolling instead of running to the bases.
2. They struggle on his hands/arms since he moves too much. Let alone the climbing physics get a little confusing during those moments.
3. People don't know what to do once they reach his right hand.

potatohead · Feb 18, 2018

Birdseye said:
I've just realized you're supposed to disable each rod before moving on to the next. I used tried to get straight to the head so my health would get depleted on my way there... I wish the proper way to kill this boss had been more obvious

Why do you want it to be obvious? That's kind of the point of the game that it's not completely clear

Deleted member 4869 · Feb 18, 2018

Illusion said:
Only a few moments I can think of:

1. People are dodge rolling instead of running to the bases.
2. They struggle on his hands/arms since he moves too much. Let alone the climbing physics get a little confusing during those moments.
3. People don't know what to do once they reach his right hand.

It is baffling to me that a lot of people are just not willing to try things like stabbing the Colossi in certain areas to see their reactions.

During my very first playthrough on the PS2, Malus kept moving his right hand so I just instinctively stabbed it: "Be still, motherfucker!!".

And it worked.

But people want the puzzles to solve themselves, apparently.

SunhiLegend · Feb 18, 2018

EvanSquared · Feb 18, 2018

Ishida said:
It is baffling to me that a lot of people are just not willing to try things like stabbing the Colossi in certain areas to see their reactions.

During my very first playthrough on the PS2, Malus kept moving his right hand so I just instinctively stabbed it: "Be still, motherfucker!!".

And it worked.

Because the game has spent 15 Colossi training you that stabbing anything except an indicated weak spot is completely useless. To flip your question around, I don't know why you (correctly) thought Malus would behave differently than every single other Colossus.

Van Bur3n · Feb 18, 2018

What a terrible ending...

Fucking Agro didn't even die. I was praising the sun gods watching that little bitch fall down that gorge and then she just survives while Wander gets fucked? I got screwed over. Bamboozled, even.

But seriously, Agro is the worst video game horse. Makes Roach look like a quantum physicist. I'm going to have to play this game again and beat her until she understands how stupid she is.

Deleted member 4869 · Feb 18, 2018

Evane E said:
Because the game has spent 15 Colossi training you that stabbing anything except an indicated weak spot is completely useless. To flip your question around, I don't know why you (correctly) thought Malus would behave differently than every single other Colossus.

Bullshit. Stabbing Colossi like Barba or Argus in the shoulders makes them writhe and buys you more time to make a fully charged stab at the head.

It's all experimentation. Your mistake is believing all Colossi are the same.

A lot of people have issues stabbing Cenobia because it keeps running around. Most people don't even try to lure it to crash into the broken pillars to make it dizzy.

Supervlieg · Feb 18, 2018

My seven year old beat this game. My nine year old shortly after. They're totally in love with this game, as am I. I think the controls are just fine, they're just different. As is this game in general.

I'm for a fix of the face in an update though. Even though it bothers me little while playing, it would be nice to be able to set some expressions for the photo mode. The blank stare sort of ruins pics.

I'd kill for some dlc with the lost collosi.

immsun · Feb 18, 2018

Supervlieg said:
My seven year old beat this game. My nine year old shortly after. They're totally in love with this game, as am I. I think the controls are just fine, they're just different. As is this game in general.

Indeed its that simple.

Controls,Horse and Camera are absolutely fine. Though i agree that noob friendly games these days have spoilt people but still its not that difficult to learn games mechanics when you have played for an hour or so.

Deleted member 2317 · Feb 18, 2018

VaporSnake said:
Unfortunately it's not baffling, it is frustrating though. The modern gamer is hardwired to expect every game to control vaguely similarly, so when anything breaks that cohesion it's automatically "bad". Games largely used to take risks in the method of control, they often required a dedicated player to actually go through a learning curve just to master something as simple as movement, but now that everything controls the same if anything dares to do something with just a minor bit of learning resistance NOPE, IT'S TERRIBLE! with zero real criticism beyond "it's bad cuz its different" People don't want to go through that learning curve anymore, they want pick up and play.

You'll see the same crap in LTTP: RE4 threads all the time, because people just expect it to play like a modern third person shooter when it really has it's own individual approach that has more in common with a 3D brawler like God Hand than it does with the Gears of War archetype that people expect.

Hell look up what the idiots were saying when Demon Souls first came out "these controls are horrible, why can't it control like X or Y" when we all know those games would be vastly different with a more conventional hack and slash control scheme. It's really the example I think speaks the most volume, just learning the ropes in your first souls game is incredibly satisfying, the controls are foreign and nuanced but once you learn the in's and outs you end up feeling extremely powerful and there's no other experiences in gaming like it. Contrast that to how most modern games start out, you're powerful and capable right out of the gates and everything is automated.

Agreed, I think it's the controls more than anything else in the game that might trip someone up.

I'm also three collossi in after not playing since my time with it on PS2- (That long due to no PS3 or capable PC) and this version has been a sheer joy to play in performance mode on a Pro.

gfxtwin · Feb 18, 2018

I don't get the complaints about the horse controls. You use left analog to pull reigns & steer, hold a button to gallop at full speed, pull back on left analog to slow down, etc. Simple, feels natural af and I don't see any upside to changing it since it would probably result in less gorgeous animation.

Don't get the 16th colossus hand stab thing either (whenever you stab a colossus anywhere it always reacts) or the issue with the camera aside from maybe the auto centering. It always frames the action in a classy way and moving it around during colossi battles can almost feel like cinematography imo.

Alpende · Feb 18, 2018

Making my way through and just killed the 8th Colossus. I just can't seem to get used to the horse controls, I keep struggling with them

Deleted member 4869 · Feb 18, 2018

Alpende said:
Making my way through and just killed the 8th Colossus. I just can't seem to get used to the horse controls, I keep struggling with them

Are you trying to steer the horse during narrow passages like bridges or caves?

famikon · Feb 18, 2018

Supervlieg said:
I'd kill for some dlc with the lost collosi.

btw, speaking of that:

Fumito Ueda, the creator of Shadow of the Colossus, originally had 48 colossi in mind when planning the game. Realizing that putting in that many colossi was not possible, he cut the number down to 24 - half the original number.

Eventually, the number of colossi used in the game became 16, with the 8 unused colossi appearing only in the artbook.

100%TrophyMaster · Feb 18, 2018

I want to throw my controller against the wall. Colossus #3 on time attack hard is just rocking my world. I get soooo close and then run out of time. Stamina drains so fast when he shakes his head

breadtruck · Feb 18, 2018

Bucca said:
Why are people having so much trouble on the final colossus...?

He's like one of the most straightforward fights. Like yeah, it's a little annoying to have to climb him again when you get knocked off, but c'mon.

Um, no, he isnt. I guess if you watched youtube a twitch before doing it, its super simple...

Illusion said:
Only a few moments I can think of:

1. People are dodge rolling instead of running to the bases.
2. They struggle on his hands/arms since he moves too much. Let alone the climbing physics get a little confusing during those moments.
3. People don't know what to do once they reach his right hand.

Exactly. These were all the problems I had. I eventually fought through it and figured it out, but it took a looooooooong time.

Evane E said:
AAs I pointed out earlier, the "stab him in the hand" mechanic is something you have to learn from outside the game, as there's no clue for that on the Colossus, breaking the rules the game adheres to in every other instance. I literally wasted 20 minutes this most recent time trying to figure out what to do once I got to the right hand, even though I've played the game six or so times; I'd forgotten that, and eventually had to look it up out of frustration. I'm pretty sure the first time I played the game, at release on the PS2, I and a friend spent well over an hour stumped on that.

Yup. The hand stab is totally something that eluded me for the majority of my attempts. God, was that infuriating once I did find it out... I was all like "youve got to be f*cking kidding me..." lol

Deleted member 1594 · Feb 18, 2018

I currently have the fastest time recorded on Speedrun.com for Avion on Hard Time Attack :)

Video (2:11)

Current fatest time is 2:18:https://www.speedrun.com/sotc_2018/5_Avion#Hard_mode_individual_time_attack

I submitted my video. My guess is that will be beaten in less than a day.

Vic Damone Jr. · Feb 18, 2018

Finished HTA, now it's a cakewalk to the platinum.

Cugel · Feb 18, 2018

So was there anything to the 79 coins besides

the Dormin sword ?

100%TrophyMaster · Feb 18, 2018

I finally got by Colossus 3 on HTA.
One thing I realized I wasn't doing was charging my sword long enough before attacking. If you wait until Wander grunts it will do max damage. Really makes a difference on hard mode

Bucca · Feb 18, 2018

FYI many colossi can be steadied by hitting them in non-weak spots with the sword.

It isn't explicitly told to you obviously. Most people find out by doing it out of frustration, which imo, is intentional by design.

DieH@rd · Feb 18, 2018

Cugel said:
So was there anything to the 79 coins besides

the Dormin sword ?

No.

Now we have unsolved mystery of the goats.

Bucca said:
FYI many colossi can be steadied by hitting them in non-weak spots with the sword.

It isn't explicitly told to you obviously. Most people find out by doing it out of frustration, which imo, is intentional by design.

There are also stable but hard to easily find "anchor points" around sigils. If player holds there, colossi will not twitch and displace us so much. I found that finding anchor point at colossi 16 is most helpful, he twitches a lot. You can get info about that anchor point in the NTA run at Games Done Quick.

Cugel · Feb 18, 2018

DieH@rd said:
No.

Now we have unsolved mystery of the goats.

.

What was it ?

Indy in the Fridge · Feb 18, 2018

Beat the game. I gave in at 15 and looked up strats for the final 2 since I was just getting frustrated and wanted to see the end. Still enjoyed it and I'm 3 colossi in to an Easy+ playthrough to upgrade everything before I tackle Hard.

16 was actually a very well designed boss in terms of spectacle. Climbing sort of sucked since thinking of using the bow while on the colossi never occurred to me before I pulled up a strat.

MazeHaze · Feb 18, 2018

Finished it yesterday. Faithful to the original and beautifully remastered.

I kind of wish I'd let my memory of it exist as it was. I loved the PS2 version a lot, but I hadn't played it since release.

I found a couple of the fights to be not very fun, the controls felt a bit stiff and janky, really don't like the camera in this game. The colossi that charge at you and knock you over......woof. you're literally on the ground for 10+ seconds, and right as you get up they knock you down again. I also had multiple lizard tails get stuck in unreachable spots.

Cool experience, and the HDR is stunning. The art, music and atmosphere in this game is really something special. I just don't find the game to be very fun.

N.Domixis · Feb 18, 2018

Took me like 3 hours to figure out what to do. First time playing this game outside of a demo many years ago that kills the same first monster.

Rackham · Feb 18, 2018

Evane E said:
Because the game has spent 15 Colossi training you that stabbing anything except an indicated weak spot is completely useless. To flip your question around, I don't know why you (correctly) thought Malus would behave differently than every single other Colossus.

Bull colossus requires you to hit its head teeth to move it around. Another requires you to scare it with fire. Another requires you to piss it off with arrows. Another to shoot it with an arrow in the eyes.They're all different so your point about "the game teaching you" it only works one way is pretty much bs.

Deleted member 1594 · Feb 18, 2018

Mua ha haaaa.

I'll try to improve on that tonight. Gotta work on my wing-to-wing traversal.

MoonsaultSlayer · Feb 18, 2018

Evane E said:
Additionally, jumping to the hands is a mostly-blind jump, since the hands obscure your view of Wander, and while I think complaints about camera control are mostly overblown and not bothering to work with the game, there's a genuine struggle with the camera and constantly shifting angles on the moving hands there.

This is you lying right now or doing it wrong (to sound cliched). Never once did I touch the camera stick in any of my #16 runs in this remake. You simply grab on, stab, hold jump, hold down, release jump (while still holding grab), profit.

Then climb to top of wrist, run and jump up forearm, jump to weakpoint, grab, stab, hold jump, hold down, release jump etc etc.

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