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Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
While I'm happy with the change in the score system, it's perfectly fine if others aren't. Even if you don't think it's a big deal, let's not be dismissive of other people's concerns, guys. We all post here because we enjoy their content, which is what matters.
 

Stowaway Silfer

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,819
I'll take the score change if they keep goals.

Yeah this too. I want goals to stay + Ultima coming out to say fuck the stars. Cause when normal Brad says something you already don't feel like disagreeing but if Ultima comes out strongly against the old system then on god Imma write the longest post shitting on the star system that I can lol. There's a right side of history and that is where Ultima is.

The question now is what game gets EZA's first 10/10?
Monster Hunter World G

Or this one.

While I'm happy with the change in the score system, it's perfectly fine if others aren't. Even if you don't think it's a big deal, let's not be dismissive of other people's concerns, guys. We all post here because we enjoy their content, which is what matters.
This is why you're a mod.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,653
It's really unfortunate (and annoying) some people feel the need to double their five-star rating to extract a misleading 10-point score. Do you also multiply the 4-star rating from film critics by 2.5?

I think the notion that you need an extra half a point to more accurately reflect how you felt about a video game is nonsense. Why not a 100-point score for even more accuracy? Why not 1000 points? When does the level of granularity start being ridiculous?

Oh well whatever.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,065
How do you indicate that you love a game more than Prime then? 10.5?

The text/VO is where the nuance comes in.
There can be nuance in both the text and the score. The score isn't an equation. For example I'd give Metroid Prime a 98 and Breath of the Wild a 94, just because that's how I feel. It's just a scale of how much I like something.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,550
Not bothered by the change. I tend to think of the score as more of a score about the reviewer's feelings towards the game rather than a judgement of the game itself, because enjoyment of something is so subjective. How that score is expressed is irrelevant to me as long as I understand the scoring system. What matters is how that scoring system lets the reviewer express themselves. If this works better for them, go for it. If they decide to change it in a year? Whatever. Go ahead. IGN's changed their review policy numerous times and I've barely noticed. The stars were fun and I don't think they're going anywhere, but I'm ready for Ben and Huber to feel a bit more free in how they express what they're feeling about a game.
 

AndreGX

GameXplain
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,815
San Francisco
There can be nuance in both the text and the score. The score isn't an equation. For example I'd give Metroid Prime a 98 and Breath of the Wild a 94, just because that's how I feel. It's just a scale of how much I like something.

Sure, but you'll never know when you've reached peak-enjoyment. In your situation, as soon as you've given out the top score, there's no where to grow into to provide the level of nuance you already mentioned when depicted as a number.
 
Oct 25, 2017
981
No this is a result of over a year of internal conversations. It's about what we want to say with our scores, not about trying to appease anyone.

Not saying its knee jerk. Just saying based on what Huber said on FT, seemed like metacritic was a big reason. But I mean can't really say much if yall are happy with it.

Wow, are you serious?

They have been hinting at this for a while. What an ignorant comment.

EDIT: and Bloodworth already replied.

Calm down dude.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,065
Sure, but you'll never know when you've reached peak-enjoyment. In your situation, as soon as you've given out the top score, there's no where to grow into to provide the level of nuance you already mentioned when depicted as a number.
If a game comes out that expands how much I can enjoy video games, I would just lower the score of previous games.
 

Stowaway Silfer

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,819
Not bothered by the change. I tend to think of the score as more of a score about the reviewer's feelings towards the game rather than a judgement of the game itself, because enjoyment of something is so subjective. How that score is expressed is irrelevant to me as long as I understand the scoring system. What matters is how that scoring system lets the reviewer express themselves. If this works better for them, go for it. If they decide to change it in a year? Whatever. Go ahead. IGN's changed their review policy numerous times and I've barely noticed. The stars were fun and I don't think they're going anywhere, but I'm ready for Ben and Huber to feel a bit more free in how they express what they're feeling about a game.

You know what? That's a fucking great point man! I still personally prefer stars to the new thing (and prefer no score to stars) but ultimately it is about how "free" they feel and if for whatever reason in two years they feel tied down again, whatever change it. If not, then it's cool cause they're comfortable.

If a game comes out that expands how much I can enjoy video games, I would just lower the score of previous games.

Joseph Joestar style "Oh Noo"

A review shouldn't be about the value/worth of a game relative to other reviews, past and future. It's about the value of a game by itself, potentially based on the expectations you had going into it.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,653
I mean if the Allies are more comfortable with the new scoring, more power to them, but to be honest this feels more like a return to a 7~10 game review scale
 

Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,098
Not a fan of the change, but I've said that before. So I'll echo this:
I'm fine with a 10 scoring system long as they are comfortable with scoring games a 10 and not look at 10 as a score where a game has to be 100% flawless which for some reason a lot of people on the internet see the 10 as. Personally, i prefer the 5/5 system but if people counting stars as 2 points (5 being a 10, 4 being a 8 etc) frustrates me i cannot imagine how much it must frustrate the allies.

Bloodborne 2 better be a 10. ;)
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
If a game comes out that expands how much I can enjoy video games, I would just lower the score of previous games.

The way I see it is that two games that you enjoyed to somewhat varying degrees both being 10s is fine. It's not meant to be a 100% accurate and unique representation of how much you enjoyed it. You'll find that information in the content of the review itself. Most reviewers seem to reserve perfect scores (regardless of which scale they're using) for games that they deem to be masterpieces/masterful (i.e., what 5 stars was for EZA). I never took a 10 to mean that it was the pinnacle of my enjoyment of video games, and that nothing could surpass it. I think the 20 point scale is useful in the sense that it offers a little bit more leeway than the 10 point scale, but isn't as nitpicky as the 100 point scale. Kind of the perfect balance for me.
 

issa

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,030
Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
It makes sense since some of them were never on board with the star system. But it's a dumber system. But I don't care for traditional reviews ᖍ(ツ)ᖌ

I would respect them more if it was officially a 5-10 or a 6-10 system.

I will admit, the one change that I will miss is the editing flourish on the end of all their reviews as they reveal the score. :(
Oh that was the worst. The transition between playing with the stars as a stylistic choice and using the stars to show the score was weird and sometimes jarring.
 

klastical

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,712
What is this bear that Kyle mentions durring the rumors segment. He said he sees it on Reddit all the time.

Wait, is this a bit?
 

Deleted member 5593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,635
A numerical score to evaluate the quality of a video game in principle is dumb. Kotaku.com & Waypoint are among the handful of outlets that have it right letting their review content speak for itself.

However EZA isn't financially independent like Waypoint/Kotaku and they depend on the advertising provided by meta/opencritic for their business. With that stipulation I say give each reviewer whatever numeric value they are comfortable with.
 

Bloodworth

Member
Oct 28, 2017
796
However EZA isn't financially independent like Waypoint/Kotaku and they depend on the advertising provided by meta/opencritic for their business.
what?
We get exposure from those sites for sure, but we aren't anywhere near "dependent" on advertising. The vast majority of our income is from Patreon with a smaller chunk from Twitch subs. Ads are a very small piece of it.

Again, this is just about using a system that more clearly says what we want to say. Yes, a benefit of that is people see the actual score we used when they browse an external site, but it isn't the primary reason.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,100
Chesire, UK
A 10 point scale was at least 5 points too many to start with, so this is a move in the wrong direction.

A true 5 star scale, with no half stars, leaves no room for manoeuvre. Whatever score you pick you better mean it. Everyone on this blue Earth knows the difference between a 4-star and a 5-star experience, just like everyone understands that sometimes all you need is 2-stars to be happy.

Giving yourselves the out of a 20 point scale speaks to a lack of conviction and clarity. Nobody knows the difference between a 12 and a 13, nor a 16 and a 17, so you can safely fudge the numbers without too much fuss. It's boring, it's safe, it's muddying the waters with false precision.
 

ByteSizeRick

Member
Oct 27, 2017
129
what?
We get exposure from those sites for sure, but we aren't anywhere near "dependent" on advertising. The vast majority of our income is from Patreon with a smaller chunk from Twitch subs. Ads are a very small piece of it.

Again, this is just about using a system that more clearly says what we want to say. Yes, a benefit of that is people see the actual score we used when they browse an external site, but it isn't the primary reason.

Hey blood thanks for taking the time. Really appreciate it. I have to say that while I think a 20 point system makes sense for the reasons articulated, the loss of "stars" as a concept hurts what I think was relatively strong branding (video intros, etc.) around that concept. Can you speak a bit as to why the stars were ditched entirely, in lieu of a "Star Search" esque "You get 3 and three-quarters stars!" system with the granularity you were after? I personally would have preferred to see that bit of uniqueness preserved.
 

Stowaway Silfer

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,819
Giving yourselves the out of a 20 point scale speaks to a lack of conviction and clarity. Nobody knows the difference between a 12 and a 13, nor a 16 and a 17, so you can safely fudge the numbers without too much fuss. It's boring, it's safe, it's muddying the waters with false precision.

Lol that's kinda how I feel about that system. To me it's not more precise but rather less conclusive kinda.
 
Oct 25, 2017
607
The problem was always an unwillingness to use the lower half of the scale. 2.5 and below was exceedingly rare, so they were essentially limiting themselves to a 5-point system out of fear / stubbornness.

I don't care too much, because honestly, scores are kinda stupid in the first place – but it's honestly the last thing at EZA that needed time and effort expended on.
 

Trejo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,830
I don't mind the change, actually, if it's what they feel works better and it's what they want to do. I just hope they'll at least consider using the full scale and not adopt a 6-10 system like IGN et al.
 

Umibozu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
414
Review scale change is better than before.
...they gotta stop saying stuff they don't know at times.
Ridge Racer exclusivity history, metroid selling more than Kirby...and I'm 23 minutes in.

Yeah ridge racer has had an exclusive game on 360, mobile release and several titles on Nintendo consoles over the years; don't know where they got the part about it being Sony exclusive up till now lol.
Metroid also has never been in their top ten series, even more so when discussing sales.
Even their comment about how Kirby and yoshi are internally developed (they're not).

After a certain point I know they're going to get a lot of things wrong and decide (for better or worse) to let them have their fun with those discussions.
 

Stowaway Silfer

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,819
The problem was always an unwillingness to use the lower half of the scale. 2.5 and below was exceedingly rare, so they were essentially limiting themselves to a 5-point system out of fear / stubbornness.

I don't care too much, because honestly, scores are kinda stupid in the first place – but it's honestly the last thing at EZA that needed time and effort expended on.

I don't mind the change, actually, if it's what they feel works better and it's what they want to do. I just hope they'll at least consider using the full scale and not adopt a 6-10 system like IGN et al.

I don't believe this to be due to an unwillingness or lack of consideration. This is a "problem" that they'll have no matter what scoring system they use and it's simply a result of them mostly reviewing games that they look forward to. When you look forward to a game, you expect it to be good and if you have reason to expect a game to be good, chances are it's gonna be good. There are times where as we get closer to the release or as you play the game you see that your expectations don't quite match up (*cough* Mass Effect Andromeda, Battlefront II, Need for Speed Payback *cough*...wait) and that will lead to less than satisfactory reviews. But otherwise it's normal for most of the games they review to be in the upper part of the scale. Otherwise I don't really want a game like Attack on Titan or something get a 2/5 or 4/10 or whatever just for the sake of it. (and this is also why it's important for the scores to have clear words attached to them)
 

Byvar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
535
I'm happy for Easy Allies if they believe they can use the numeric system better. I liked the stars system but agree with their arguments for the change. I think the traditional numerical 1-10 scale (or rather, 6-10) is not the best solution, though. If there is a problem with reviews now (the fact that scores mean different things per reviewer and only 1/3 of the scale actually being used) then going back to the numerical scale feels a bit like them giving up on ever fixing that problem.

For example, instead of stars they could use a bar that fills up, with markers or areas for "decent", "excellent", "masterful", and so on. These areas are unevenly spaced, making it difficult to convert them to a numeric score (and not showing the full bar on screen, e.g. by having the camera pan across the bar while it fills up, would make it impossible to do so). They also have enough room to show if something is not quite excellent, but almost. To add to that, a "masterful" would not necessarily be the absolute maximum, since they can always add markers/areas above that if a later game ends up being even better.

There's another matter that wasn't mentioned here but was in a previous video. I think I remember one of the allies saying it was hard to score a game because they thought it was better than another game that got 4 stars, but not as good as a third game that got 4.5 stars. I think, if they feel that way, that it's better to show that, i.e. literally show at the end of the review "We liked it more than X but not as much as Y".
While unprofessional, I think it would also be a more honest score. Showing the reference scores would do a good job of explaining how good the game is exactly (i.e. some people may see a 7.5 as good and some as bad, but people understand comparisons between the quality of different games, which in the end is what people -- including the reviewers themselves -- actually associate with these scores, no?). In an extreme case I would even use this measure exclusively, because some games are simply incomparable and scoring them on the same scale, whether numerical or otherwise, makes people draw comparisons where they can't really be made. Picking the reference scores from games within the same genre could avoid that.

I'm not saying that my suggestions are good enough (they aren't), but I think it's worth peeking out of the box to see what other possible score systems you could use.
 

Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,030
The Waffle Kingdom
I just liked stars as a concept. The concept of these spheroids of plasma gracing my video game critique with their presence. The appealing angular aesthetic of their ideographic appearance. If Easy Allies won't sell us on the wonders of space, then who will?

I don't mind the change.
 

Bloodworth

Member
Oct 28, 2017
796
Hey blood thanks for taking the time. Really appreciate it. I have to say that while I think a 20 point system makes sense for the reasons articulated, the loss of "stars" as a concept hurts what I think was relatively strong branding (video intros, etc.) around that concept. Can you speak a bit as to why the stars were ditched entirely, in lieu of a "Star Search" esque "You get 3 and three-quarters stars!" system with the granularity you were after? I personally would have preferred to see that bit of uniqueness preserved.
We didn't really discuss that option at length, but I don't think that quarter-stars look very good personally. There's still a bit of a stars motif in the background of the new graphics as you can see in the video.
 

daniel77733

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,639
Nice. I easily prefer the 1-10 scale for reviews and have never liked the star rating scale regardless of who uses it simply because it always ends up being just whole numbers. That problem is now solved. I wonder what will be the first game reviewed and scored under the new rating scale and what game will get the first 10 rating.

I'm going with Metal Gear Survive to be the first game reviewed and scored under the new rating scale and Red Dead Redemption 2 being their first 10.
 

TokyoSlim

Member
Oct 27, 2017
174
My personal preference would be to get rid of numerical based scores altogether. If the rationale is that stars cannot effectively communicate their intentions with enough granularity - then numbers aren't going to solve that problem either. The issue isn't stars vs numbers, or that there aren't enough numbers, it's that counting things are a poor method of describing an experience. It causes people to mistakenly believe (As seen in this thread and elsewhere) that the numbers are a RANKING, which they are not.

I greatly prefer reviews with a "Not recommended, Recommended, Highly Recommended" scale. The point of the body of the review is to tell you if/why something is recommended or not.
 

Stowaway Silfer

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,819
My personal preference would be to get rid of numerical based scores altogether. If the rationale is that stars cannot effectively communicate their intentions with enough granularity - then numbers aren't going to solve that problem either. The issue isn't stars vs numbers, or that there aren't enough numbers, it's that counting things are a poor method of describing an experience. It causes people to mistakenly believe (As seen in this thread and elsewhere) that the numbers are a RANKING, which they are not.

I greatly prefer reviews with a "Not recommended, Recommended, Highly Recommended" scale. The point of the body of the review is to tell you if/why something is recommended or not.

Problem is EZA themselves see game reviews as rankings somehow.

Which doesn't make sense considering that 4.5/5 Breath of the Wild wins GOTY over 5/5 Persona 5 and 5/5 Mario Odyssey, the latter of which was reviewed by the same person who reviewed BotW and repped that game as GOTY...sigh

Yeah if we're just gonna use scores to rank games then just get rid of scores. It's as if we're forgetting there's this whole other part of the review where you can convey your thoughts on a game which allows me to figure out how it compares to other games for the reviewer.
 

munchie64

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,541
Don't like the score change but I try to ignore the scores in reviews anyway so my opinion doesn't mean much in regards to this (obviously the allies opinions matter most).
 

LiquidSolid

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,731
Sure they are. On their old scale I would have given both Metroid Prime and MGS3 a 5 star review, thus expressing that I absolutely love both games. However I love Prime more than MGS3, and the stars don't allow me to indicate that.
If that's how you view review scores, you're doing it wrong. Review scores aren't for comparisons, that's just warz bullshit, they're meant to be a concise way to inform the viewer how good a game is. And if you want more detail, that's what the rest of the review is for.

I'm not going to say I won't take their new scores seriously but I do think this change is a complete waste of time, that their reasoning is terrible and that it makes me think less of EZA as a result. They say they want a larger scale so they can nitpick things more (which seems like something they're way over thinking) but they're already limiting those options by saying they don't think 3 stars translates to 6/10. So assuming that 3 stars instead translates to a 7, that means their typical range won't be much bigger than the current one (there's seven possible scores from 7 to 10, only two more than 3 to 5 stars).

The problem was always an unwillingness to use the lower half of the scale. 2.5 and below was exceedingly rare, so they were essentially limiting themselves to a 5-point system out of fear / stubbornness.

I don't care too much, because honestly, scores are kinda stupid in the first place – but it's honestly the last thing at EZA that needed time and effort expended on.
I agree that it's the last thing they needed to waste their time on (I think I called it "shuffling the deck chairs around" the last time this debate came up) but I don't know why people always say reviewers should use the "full scale." Did you go to your stats class in school and say "the problem with this data set is they aren't using the full scale"? Sorry but it's nonsense. The scale isn't there for every point to be used, it's there to concisely communicate how good a game is, whether that's a simple word like "Recommended", stars or a number. By completely changing up the scale and making something like 2 stars "good" instead of bad, you're actually making it more complicated.
 
Oct 25, 2017
607
I don't know why people always say reviewers should use the "full scale."

Film reviewers do, at least it seems that way when I read a newspaper. Lots of 2 and 3 star films, a decent number of 1/5. If the tag to go with each star was: Poor, okay, good, special, masterful – then I doubt there would've been a reason to change. When you purposefully limit yourself to 3-5 stars, it's almost impossible to show nuance.

I still understand the reasoning of making things look nice on review aggregators, but honestly, fuck the system as it stands right now – it's not something that deserves nor needs propping up.
 
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