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Civilization VI: Rise and Fall |OT| Just One More Era

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Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
The diplomatic victory in Civ5 was actually the economy victory. Whoever had the most money at this stage of the game would buy enough votes to win. There was no diplomacy involved since even being the best friend in the world would never buy you a vote, while a fat pile of cash would.
 
KuwabaraTheMan

KuwabaraTheMan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,179
Having a diplomatic victory option was a good idea, but Civ V's implementation was just not very well done. It was nothing more than just buying up all of the city states.

I'd like to see them have another go at the idea in the second expansion pack.
 
OP
OP
Carthago Delenda Est

Carthago Delenda Est

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,119
That said, an economic victory seems like it could be a good idea. Right now it's pretty heavily tied to Science. I'm approaching end-game science right now and my strategy is likely going to be buying builders to boost production every single turn. I'm not sure that's ideal.
 
Loan Wolf

Loan Wolf

Member
Nov 9, 2017
5,092
Would like to see other variables throwing a wrench in the leaders' as well. Reintroducing the concept of corporations from Civ IV and tying the accumulation of wealth and productivity to amenities and loyalty inversely would be a nice mechanic.
 
Sibylus

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
I want to see the diplomatic victory return, this time involving having an overwhelming Suzerainty over city states AND major civs. Keep your subjects happy so they don't stray.
 
vacantseas

vacantseas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,735
Won a game with Cree that came down to the wire earlier on turn 497/500. Ended up being a science victory. Was going to lose on score if I didn't pull out the victory.

Had some AI spies sabotage my spaceports a couple times, which delayed production of the Mars lander. Had to pump out some last minute spies to apply counter-espionage. Also had some barbarians show up in the last 100 turns which forced me to pump out some tanks late game to keep them at bay.

Was pretty damn exciting and stressful.
 
Cecil

Cecil

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,449
I started my first Rise & Fall campaign, with Korea, on warlord, since I had barely played the game since release, and I remembered everyone always starting wars with me no matter what. But after a religious victory before 1600 AD, with not a single war encounter with any other civs, I might have to step up my game a bit. :)
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
Went to space with the Cree right after hitting a Dark Age and seeing the entire expanse I'd won from the Germans in response to their massive Tank Army blitz hovering <5 turns to revolt. I can definitely imagine hitting a Dark Age mid-war when you don't have such an out is a real backbreaker.
 
MotiD

MotiD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,560
Is the FilthyRobot guide still relevant or is the game too different now? Talking about base not the expansion
 

Django.Mango

Member
Jan 31, 2018
802
So someone in this thread mentioned that you can chop the trees for getting productivity. Well, i didnt know this up to yesterday and im feeling really dumb right now, playing Civ since 4 lol. Anyway, this is a gamechanger for me as i builded three wonders in about five rounds, though China doesnt like my new chopping style at all. I think i can change the difficulty now. So thanks for the hint.

One thing i also never tried is a domination win, as i dont know how to handle the satisfaction, now with the loyalty-system i think its getting more difficult than without the extension. Maybe someone has some hints how to make it more achievable.

The loyalty mechanic is a nice and plausible addition, the ages im not too much into, gouverneurs are also good.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
Try not to chop forests that are on rivers, river lumber mills are really strong

For loyalty in domination : get monuments in cities you capture in case they don't have them, they give loyalty. Also put governors on your borders and cities your capture that are far from your own.
 
electricblue

electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,991
vacantseas said:
Won a game with Cree that came down to the wire earlier on turn 497/500. Ended up being a science victory. Was going to lose on score if I didn't pull out the victory.

Had some AI spies sabotage my spaceports a couple times, which delayed production of the Mars lander. Had to pump out some last minute spies to apply counter-espionage. Also had some barbarians show up in the last 100 turns which forced me to pump out some tanks late game to keep them at bay.

Was pretty damn exciting and stressful.
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I've never seen spies go for anything but my capital's commerce district (probably because my GPT overwhelms any other concern). In my game as Cree I put a lvl 3 spy there who just committed an atrocity on the intelligence community, killing another spy just about every turn. I never asked them to stop, why bother if they are going to keep wasting production on spies to send to their deaths.
 
decoyplatypus

decoyplatypus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,614
Brooklyn
Loyalty mechanic seems to encourage blitzing capitals--knock the biggest loyalty generator offline. (This is not a criticism but an observation).

On last page's warmongering conversation, I continue to think that warmongering penalties do not scale heavily enough based on the relationships of the various parties. If Cleo has denounced Monty, and I declare war on Monty, there should be more than a 40% reduction in Cleo's warmongering penalty. And if Cleo and I are declared friends, then her warmongering penalty should be tiny unless I am attacking (a) her, (b) an ally of hers, (c) another declared friend of hers, (d) an AI she "likes", or (e) a city-state in which she has an envoy. But Firaxis has a lot of time to consider the issue, and they seem to prefer this setup where a little medieval era conquering will leave you hated for most of the game.

EDIT: The golden age dedication that gives you a "light" penalty CB you can use on anyone is pretty nice.
 
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KuwabaraTheMan

KuwabaraTheMan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,179
Won on King for the first time last night. Went with Genghis and pulled off a Domination victory (granted it was Pangaea and a small map, so that's kind of easy mode). I made some mistakes early on, but I felt like I got a much better handle on fighting wars on higher difficulty levels as the game went on.

Had some serious "one more turn" syndrome by the end of things and didn't finish my game until super late at night even though I had to be at work early this morning. I haven't been this deep into Civ in quite awhile.
 
OP
OP
Carthago Delenda Est

Carthago Delenda Est

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,119
I like how Civ 6 has a clock in the game so you can see the hours slipping away in real time and consciously choose to say "screw it, I don't need more than 3 hours of sleep."
 

Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
"Yes, it's 2:30AM I just want to make sure the Wonder finishes properly, it's just 2 turns, not a big deal".
On the turn the wonder finishes, sudden DOW from two neighbours.
"But they just have sticks and I have tanks, so I just want to show them what it means to stab me in the back. It should be quick."
By the time justice has been brought to the land the sun rises.

... I haven't had the time to start a game yet, but damn all your stories make me want to request IT to install Steam on my work station. I mean, what could possibly go wrong.
 
Dylan

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
Making progress...

Mod Edit: Removed image
 
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chainlinkspiral

chainlinkspiral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,579
Yeah, after twenty or so hours with the expansion, this is feeling pretty dang good. I think I'll lose the game I'm nearing to ending, but not by much. Fifty more turns to plot some schemes.
 
Hecht

Hecht

Blue light comes around
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,735
triple said:
That image caught some of us a bit surprised, it seems you guys had a chat, what about? that it's not good to share, use? is it ok to openly mock the admins?
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No, it's not. I had given him a ban earlier in the thread for it. I wanted to make sure it was a joke rather than just being an outright ass (since his post history suggests the former rather than the latter), so I had a chat with him. The joke's run its course now, so it should be done now. If it comes back up, though, I'll be back :D
 
Dylan

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
triple said:
That image caught some of us a bit surprised, it seems you guys had a chat, what about? that it's not good to share, use? is it ok to openly mock the admins?
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The second image solidifies it as just a joke, but for posterity (and no pun intended), it was a joke, not serious, and even though I wouldn't mind being blown by a mod or anyone else for that matter, the request was not honoured.
 
phantomx

phantomx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,801
Maledict said:
Religion is so underpowered anyways, it never seems worth it. The fact that often the most powerful civs in the game are those without a religion, because they don't invest resources and time into it, is telling.

I just ignore their units parading across my lands.
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Dylan said:
That's usually how I end up playing, either intentionally or otherwise, but it seems strange to miss out on an entire portion of the games' mechanics.

Religious FOMO.
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Well, you could say a culture victory is "underpowered" too then.

Imo, you guys should try playing the game to get a a religious or cultural victory...it makes the game more interesting (cause you are still forced to combat and get science...you'll always experience that side)...and you get to experience a whole other side of the game you've been ignoring.

Domination and science victories are relatively easy paths to focus on. Religious and Cultural are the more challenging ones.
 
phantomx

phantomx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,801
Imperfected said:
Yeah, the AI in general is just in love with Religion and probably needs to have the priority on it taken down about 100 pegs. Aside from making Religious Victory hilariously, pointlessly difficult (if you can do it, you could've won three other ways by that point) in the vast majority of games, it also makes some of the AI civs just needlessly gimpy because they're rushing Stonehenge and spamming Holy Sites all over the place instead of doing, you know, anything useful.
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I've found this to be very scaled back in recent patches, and definitely apparent in the Rise and Fall expansion.

I just played a game where an AI didn't build Stonehenge until the Midevil Era :D
 
Hella

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,406
Is there a good way to conduct diplomacy? I just realised that I've never really been able to make allies or anything--civs either propose alliances on their own or are completely hostile with no inbetween; and once hostile, they never go back.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
phantomx said:
Domination and science victories are relatively easy paths to focus on. Religious and Cultural are the more challenging ones.
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Culture is actually very easy, to the point it will often happen incidentally while you're pursuing a Domination or Science victory.

Religion is certainly harder, though it's also frankly just not very fun. The Religion sub-game basically breaks down to an even less interesting and scalable version of normal combat. (IE, let's hurl our production at each other until someone's exhausted, except now let's remove terrain, experience and promotions, range, and every other bit of nuance from the equation.)
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
The higher in difficulty you go, the more difficuly cultural victory gets because other civs get insane amounts of culture so your tourism ain't worth much
Science is always the same difficulty
Domination is ofc a bit harder but.. eh
Religious on deity must be stupid difficult. Hardly bother with religion anyway, what a bland ass system
 

Django.Mango

Member
Jan 31, 2018
802
Shugga said:
The higher in difficulty you go, the more difficuly cultural victory gets because other civs get insane amounts of culture so your tourism ain't worth much
Science is always the same difficulty
Domination is ofc a bit harder but.. eh
Religious on deity must be stupid difficult. Hardly bother with religion anyway, what a bland ass system
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I think the early religious boni are good for the start, like 10% growth in your cities after echieving a pantheon, but yeah, just until you are getting spammed with other civs apostles or the pressure getting to high due trading routs for example. From the principle i think the religion is not that bad, but it seems to be not well implemented or balanced.

One question, do you use your settlers proposals in general? Sometimes it gives me a hint to settle on a white hexcel with no fresh water, mountains or luxury ressource, so i cant see the intention behind these hints and i settle next to fresh water and luxury instead.
 
Sibylus

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
Managed to stack three Golden Ages back to back (found there's a cheevo after the fact) with Cree, and barely avoided succumbing to the big comeuppance Dark Age the game was looking to slam me with. Tense as fuck.

... in sad news, barbarians burnt down my Ferris Wheel.
 
Dylan

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
Sibylus said:
... in sad news, barbarians burnt down my Ferris Wheel.
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Only one carnie survived..

source.gif
 
Dekuman

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
KuwabaraTheMan said:
Having a diplomatic victory option was a good idea, but Civ V's implementation was just not very well done. It was nothing more than just buying up all of the city states.

I'd like to see them have another go at the idea in the second expansion pack.
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Diplo victory was always wonky. In Civ 3 it was about having a clean reputation and buying votes but it was difficult to pull off as runaways often wiped out civs.

Civ 4 weighting of votes by pop / vassal made it into a domination lite.

Civ 5s implementation was essentially economic. But i enjoyed the world congress shenanigans and election rigging.

I think to make a proper diplo victory, it should be scored by era rather than a round of voting in the end game. With your cumulative score plus some end game objectives like a vote to top off scores and flag the diplo vc.

Civ 6s game mechanics is well positioned for the return of diplo VC and i hope it makes a return. Religious VC was kind of a let down. Its pointless in the higher difficulties because science is so.much more important.
 
demosthenes

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,605
Django.Mango said:
I think the early religious boni are good for the start, like 10% growth in your cities after echieving a pantheon, but yeah, just until you are getting spammed with other civs apostles or the pressure getting to high due trading routs for example. From the principle i think the religion is not that bad, but it seems to be not well implemented or balanced.

One question, do you use your settlers proposals in general? Sometimes it gives me a hint to settle on a white hexcel with no fresh water, mountains or luxury ressource, so i cant see the intention behind these hints and i settle next to fresh water and luxury instead.
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Sometimes? I always go for water or 1 away for an aqueduct. Hurts you too much early on not to.

Friend and I started a game last night and I like where it's going. I'm China, he's Aztec, 4 other teams of 2 on Emperor difficulty. Sumeria offered me 22 gold a turn (how the hell did he even have that at that point and not have luxury resources) on turn like 16 for cotton. Whew, that made things awesome for the next 30 turns. Looking forward to getting back into it. I'm loving how I can get builders with like 7 charges and burn them on wonders.

We typically go for science or culture. When we plan to go domination, we typically do it from the start.
 
Unaha-Closp

Unaha-Closp

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,727
Scotland
I'm kinda new to Civ - only played Civ 5 a little - but I bought Civ 6 Deluxe and Rise and Fall recently. Some 26 hours later, in-game time, I have put Monty on the Moon. Standard settings all round. It was a cake walk in the end. I was leading 4 of the 5 conditions except Religion which is why I guess the youtubers I watch play it on Deity. I am not there yet - I mismanaged the Governors a lot I think and maintaining loyalty in far off lands is tricky if you don't have the proper policies implemented but as I said it was a cake walk. Some hairy moment's for sure but in my tiny little experience they happen at the start of the game. At least on Level 4 Difficulty and you are new to it. Fucking Barbarian Scouts when you think you are safe and haven't built any Military Units yet.....RIP my first few forays into Civ 6. Can't wait to try out Robert The Bruce as I am Scottish myself.
 
Mengy

Mengy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,406
For my second R&F game I'm playing Korea. Their science potential is staggering, I'm leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else. Brazil declared a semi-early war on me because I had more luxuries than him (sour puss). He'd go back and forth like this, declare war, lose a few units, then ask me for peace. On the third time I'd had enough so I rolled over most of his empire and captured all but one of his cities, even took his capitol. I then let him have peace and stuck him in one city in a very poor location, I don't have to worry about that border anymore! Got a couple nice new luxuries out of it too.

Now though because I kept his capitol (which was quite a nice city) the rest of the world has slowly migrated towards hating me. I was friendly with all of them but after beating Brazil into a corner everyone else now considers me a warmonger. I haven't even declared a single war yet! Thus France to my northern border is now doing the same, she'll declare war on me, lose a few units, then sue for peace. Three times already.

I was going to go for a science victory but hey, if they all think I'm a warmonger maybe it's time I give them what they want. Paris does look to be a very nice city too….
 
Niahak

Niahak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
624
Unaha-Closp said:
I'm kinda new to Civ - only played Civ 5 a little - but I bought Civ 6 Deluxe and Rise and Fall recently. Some 26 hours later, in-game time, I have put Monty on the Moon. Standard settings all round. It was a cake walk in the end. I was leading 4 of the 5 conditions except Religion which is why I guess the youtubers I watch play it on Deity. I am not there yet - I mismanaged the Governors a lot I think and maintaining loyalty in far off lands is tricky if you don't have the proper policies implemented but as I said it was a cake walk. Some hairy moment's for sure but in my tiny little experience they happen at the start of the game. At least on Level 4 Difficulty and you are new to it. Fucking Barbarian Scouts when you think you are safe and haven't built any Military Units yet.....RIP my first few forays into Civ 6. Can't wait to try out Robert The Bruce as I am Scottish myself.
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Nice! Always enjoy reading these impressions.

I don't have any in-depth strategy suggestions for RaF, but I'd recommend your initial build order be scout -> slingers x 2 (maybe even x3 so you can get the eureka for having three archers more easily later) if it isn't already just so you can manage barbarians.

In my experience the (base game, and in my one RaF game) difficulty drops off in a big way around the medieval period on difficulties below King. I'm still learning how to do things right in VI though!

Governors-wise - I'm not sure which ones to use early on. The Culture/Science one seems to be good in the capital early to stack that up as quick as possible, but beyond that I'm never all that sure what order to go in. Most seem pretty situational (the guy who gets bonuses for chopping forests etc might be super good early if used right).

I wonder if an early-game loyalty rush would be possible (forward-settling with the Diplomat governor promoted to decrease loyalty of enemy cities)... that's probably way too advanced for me right now, though!
 
Loan Wolf

Loan Wolf

Member
Nov 9, 2017
5,092
Mengy said:
For my second R&F game I'm playing Korea. Their science potential is staggering, I'm leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else. Brazil declared a semi-early war on me because I had more luxuries than him (sour puss). He'd go back and forth like this, declare war, lose a few units, then ask me for peace. On the third time I'd had enough so I rolled over most of his empire and captured all but one of his cities, even took his capitol. I then let him have peace and stuck him in one city in a very poor location, I don't have to worry about that border anymore! Got a couple nice new luxuries out of it too.

Now though because I kept his capitol (which was quite a nice city) the rest of the world has slowly migrated towards hating me. I was friendly with all of them but after beating Brazil into a corner everyone else now considers me a warmonger. I haven't even declared a single war yet! Thus France to my northern border is now doing the same, she'll declare war on me, lose a few units, then sue for peace. Three times already.

I was going to go for a science victory but hey, if they all think I'm a warmonger maybe it's time I give them what they want. Paris does look to be a very nice city too….
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Taking cities regardless of surprise wars or casus belli will accumulate significant warmongering penalties when taking over cities; should trickle down slowly unless you took his cities late game. Would've spent more time pillaging his tiles to suck his resources dry, that usually yields larger peace offerings. Then have his cities on the brink of rebellion through amenities and loyalty going down, causing the cities to be ripe for the taking with little to no warmongering penalties.
 
OP
OP
Carthago Delenda Est

Carthago Delenda Est

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,119
I do wish warmongering penalties earned in previous era's would reduce faster. That would be sensible while still keeping warmongering relevant in the short term. Once upon a time, the UK was a warmonger. I don't think the US today hates them for a war they fought in 1300 when they took a French city.
 
Dekuman

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Carthago Delenda Est said:
I do wish warmongering penalties earned in previous era's would reduce faster. That would be sensible while still keeping warmongering relevant in the short term. Once upon a time, the UK was a warmonger. I don't think the US today hates them for a war they fought in 1300 when they took a French city.
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Any system that doesn't use a decline in warmonger penalty (linear or otherwise) can be gamed. I imagine going to war with the countdown clock ticking to a new era would become desirable as it would be expected to reduce much faster once a new era is rearched.

The penalties are kind of shitty because for a long time, the best way to win in Civ is to just cripple everyone near you as much as possible. So you get these ridiculous Khannic /Hunnic empires that last for the entire game, which I think doesn't live up to the intent of the game. As it was always much more profitable to go to war than to build peacefully.

Civ 6 (maybe BNW Civ 5) finally saw a shift in rewarding a more balanced approach to war and peace. It's nice to finally see terms like builders and warmongers discarded as the only polar ways to play the game. Neither is really optimal or desirable anymore, though crippling your neighbors, especially nabbing one of their early core cities and turning it into your own early remains massively OP even in Civ6.
 
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