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Altered Carbon |OT| This is Takeshi, he's got my back - Netflix 2/2
- Thread starter GK86
- Start date
I feel the same way. The dialogue, as written, is pretty terrible at times but then the actors delivering them are not very talented so it makes it even worse.
Yeah I didn't think she was great but she also looked like she had a bad plastic surgery. It was weird and distracting for me
I can't believe y'all are complaining about Ortega's actress when woodened assed Joel Kinnaman is the main lead :)
Edit: speaking of performances, I have to say I really enjoyed the performance the episode 4 performance by
Edit: speaking of performances, I have to say I really enjoyed the performance the episode 4 performance by
"the abuela", I think the actor really nailed the 4 different characters that "sleeved" him. I think that part of episode 4 was one of my favorites of the show, really went somewhere with the premise of the show.
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Pretty good show.
I don't get the complaint about Ortega's
I don't get the complaint about Ortega's
love for Tak. To me she was falling for Ryker and Tak just happened to be using his sleeve. She may have eventually fell for Tak himself but I don't see how this is forced or far fetched considering her history with a Ryker.
Watched the fourth episode, show is growing on me. First episode is definately the worst so far. I really like the atmosphere of the show, and it's visually mindblowing.
4th episode spoiler: The whole concept of
was absolutely insane, and abhorring. Very well done. The payoff was amazing too.
Also - I'm amazed in literally every scene how fucking HUGE Kinnaman is. I don't remember him being so big in Suicide Squad, are they using [optical] illusions or something?
4th episode spoiler: The whole concept of
endless virtual torture
Also - I'm amazed in literally every scene how fucking HUGE Kinnaman is. I don't remember him being so big in Suicide Squad, are they using [optical] illusions or something?
THat's what I think. When they restore from backup you create essentially a copy of yourselt. You don't revive as the same person, it's just your copy that lives on. I'm not sure if that doesn't even happen the moment the stack is put there in the first place. They said the stack system is installed when kids are one year old. So I wonder what would happen if you would remove a stack from adult and then wake up the body.
To me in Altered Carbon there aren't any humans left, at least those we've seen. Instead the whole civilization transformed into new type of being - a digital life form. I do think that still counts as alive, but I think AI were alive too and there's no fundamental difference between both as far as basic type of existence goes. And civiliation has mostly caught up to this fact. People treat individuals as data. As long as the data is the same, the person is too. Mets have no problem dying as long as their backup lives on, same with law. And when somebody doublesleeves both are treated as equally real
I dunno, from Quell's explanation it didn't sound like she based the technology anything alien.
Tbh, I think the whole elder alien race thing was just so unnecessary. It added nothing to the plot and narrative at all, but I guess there's more to it in the books.
My criticism about the nudity wasn't about how it might have seemed to people in the world, rather as a viewer of the show, it just seemed like the director's intent was titillation all the way through the show. My criticism is more about the framing of it, with obvious lingering shots of full frontal nudity, Ortega's tits coming out at every possible opportunity. I mean, there wasn't a single female actress in the show that I can remember that didn't have a scene where they showed their tits—aside from the Lawyer and Valerie from Riverdale (who at least showed us her ass).
It really felt forced and like the nudity was there for sake of showing nudity, instead of existing for any artistic purpose—with perhaps a small number of notable exceptions that were fairly well done.
3 dongs is more dong than I see in most TV and Cinema. Maybe I'm just not used to it.,,, and yeah, the swinging part was of course hyperbole.
If you're referring to me, then you've got it totally twisted. I have no issues with sex and nudity on TV shows. Examples like GoT and Spartacus are examples of shows that do it well. My criticism of AC is about how said nudity is portrayed, T&A for the sake of showing T&A.
I'm not even American.
Finished. I guess ultimately I still somewhat enjoyed this show despite itself? It has some massive problems and from what I remember from the book reading it like a decade ago, some of the changes they've made for the show have pretty much eliminated the possibility of adapting the other books in the series. I might get into that later but for now I just want to talk about the Envoys and Quell specifically.
Quell and the changes to Quellism as a belief system in practice has been drastically changed, for the worse.
I mostly don't mind what they did with Rei Kawahara, but...
Anyway, the rest of my complaints are with the writing being often corny and exposition heavy, so I won't say much more on that.
Okay, things I actually liked:
Poe. My favorite change from the book. Going from Jimmi Hendrix ((whose role was much more limited in the book) to a friendly AI representation of Edgar Allen Poe as a hotel manager is a weirdly fascinating alteration, but it works! Poe just wants to help, and he's often the most interesting, most humorous, and just outright most useful character in the entire cast.
Continuing off of this, I love that the side characters were given a lot more to do here in the show than in the original book, where it was mostly all-Kovacs. I liked that that here Kovacs had a rag-tag group of friends to help tackle the mystery. Expanding the Elliot family subplot was cool and I liked them all as characters (though I wish they'd kept certain aspects of Lizzie's backstory tied more deeply to the core mystery).
Kristin Ortega was given a lot more to do in the show than in the original story and factors more into the plot than I was expecting. I know a lot of you dislike the actress here, but I really didn't mind her too much (though I agree that there were probably better options out there).
Joel Kinnaman as Takeshi Kovacs. He's a good fit. Tak was a surly, wry asshole in the book and Kinnaman gets most of that right here. However, I wish they'd kept Will Yun Lee (Tak's original sleeve) as the narrator/Tak's inner voice. It'd have made more sense and I just really like Will's voice (Wei Shen!).
The world of Altered Carbon made it's way to screen mostly intact. The sprawling metropolis of Bay City and the Meth's elite luxury world above the clouds look exactly how I imagined them years ago. It helps that the production value on this show is just insane. I wonder how much it cost. Also, I wish they'd explored the Neo-C's and religion more but I appreciated what was there as extra texture to the world and society.
Okay. Overall despite some misgivings about the quality of the writing and some questionable changes to the original story, I really liked the time I spent with this show and would be into another season if it happens.
Here I'm speaking specifically about how they've altered what the Envoys are by nature and utility. In the show, most of what the Envoys are have been shifted to the CTAC forces. Sure, the Envoys still have Neurachem implants and crazy combat conditioning, but they've lost the dangerous edge they had in the original story now that they've been turned into what is basically a hippy rebel commune. They really should have better established that these rebels were once incredibly elite Protectorate forces. Some of that element has been kept for Kovacs, but it's definitely muted and his character suffers because of it.
Quell and the changes to Quellism as a belief system in practice has been drastically changed, for the worse.
IIRC in the book, Quellists (believers in Quellcrist Falconer) saw immortality in pragmatic terms. Some disagreed with it but still understood that it was an invaluable tool in fighting the increasingly corrupt capitalistic Protectorate, which also as time went on included the elite class of society (Meths) who abused re-sleeving to keep the lower classes in squalor. The show essentially combines the Envoys and Quellists into one single entity, but somehow manages to alter what both groups originally were and/or stood for. The Envoys/Quellists in the show are a pretty quaint anti-immortality rebel faction with barely any accomplishments to their name. It's simplistic and a pretty disappointing change.
Also, I really dislike that they turned Quellcrist Falconer (who in the book had been long dead) into a living, breathing, walking platitude machine instead of an actual character. I think in this case they also combined multiple characters (Tak's girlfriend Sarah, Quellcrist, the Envoy leader something something Vidaura, the scientist who created stacks) into one. It doesn't work.
Also, I really dislike that they turned Quellcrist Falconer (who in the book had been long dead) into a living, breathing, walking platitude machine instead of an actual character. I think in this case they also combined multiple characters (Tak's girlfriend Sarah, Quellcrist, the Envoy leader something something Vidaura, the scientist who created stacks) into one. It doesn't work.
I mostly don't mind what they did with Rei Kawahara, but...
her motivations could've used a bit more time in the oven. I get what they were going for but it comes off as oddly incestuous and just simply irrational. By making her a victim early on and by tying her to Tak in a familial manner, she loses some of her immense power and autonomy from the original story. Also, I didn't like the performance from Rei's actress.
The ending is very different. From the climax on Head in the Clouds to the final reveals of the story's central mystery (Bancroft's murder), the show's rendition of both feel oddly...muted? Something's been lost. I'll have to think on this more, but I remember Lizzie's story tying more heavily into the Bancroft case but not in the way it was presented in the show. I'll come back to this later.
The ending is very different. From the climax on Head in the Clouds to the final reveals of the story's central mystery (Bancroft's murder), the show's rendition of both feel oddly...muted? Something's been lost. I'll have to think on this more, but I remember Lizzie's story tying more heavily into the Bancroft case but not in the way it was presented in the show. I'll come back to this later.
Anyway, the rest of my complaints are with the writing being often corny and exposition heavy, so I won't say much more on that.
Okay, things I actually liked:
Poe. My favorite change from the book. Going from Jimmi Hendrix ((whose role was much more limited in the book) to a friendly AI representation of Edgar Allen Poe as a hotel manager is a weirdly fascinating alteration, but it works! Poe just wants to help, and he's often the most interesting, most humorous, and just outright most useful character in the entire cast.
Continuing off of this, I love that the side characters were given a lot more to do here in the show than in the original book, where it was mostly all-Kovacs. I liked that that here Kovacs had a rag-tag group of friends to help tackle the mystery. Expanding the Elliot family subplot was cool and I liked them all as characters (though I wish they'd kept certain aspects of Lizzie's backstory tied more deeply to the core mystery).
Kristin Ortega was given a lot more to do in the show than in the original story and factors more into the plot than I was expecting. I know a lot of you dislike the actress here, but I really didn't mind her too much (though I agree that there were probably better options out there).
Joel Kinnaman as Takeshi Kovacs. He's a good fit. Tak was a surly, wry asshole in the book and Kinnaman gets most of that right here. However, I wish they'd kept Will Yun Lee (Tak's original sleeve) as the narrator/Tak's inner voice. It'd have made more sense and I just really like Will's voice (Wei Shen!).
The world of Altered Carbon made it's way to screen mostly intact. The sprawling metropolis of Bay City and the Meth's elite luxury world above the clouds look exactly how I imagined them years ago. It helps that the production value on this show is just insane. I wonder how much it cost. Also, I wish they'd explored the Neo-C's and religion more but I appreciated what was there as extra texture to the world and society.
Okay. Overall despite some misgivings about the quality of the writing and some questionable changes to the original story, I really liked the time I spent with this show and would be into another season if it happens.
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I'm on the 7th episode and I have to say that the show is better than I initially gave it credit for, and just very entertaining overall.
It's uneven, to be sure. The writing and maybe half of the performances have some real rough spots, but that's easily forgivable since the world building is so compelling, it's visually quite sumptuous, and things always move along at a good pace even if the structure is off at times. When it goes all-out on the weird factor, it excels.
The show definitely gets better the deeper in you get. I've learned to enjoy the expository background moments and character building, even if they aren't the strongest and sometimes fall completely flat. Unfortunately, the actress they tapped to play Takeshi's sister isn't selling it quite as much as she probably should, but she's serviceable.
Not a terrible show by any stretch. They've got a lot of potential here for something truly special if they want to go in a different direction with season 2. Tonally this is a completely different thing from other cyber-punk offerings like Blade Runner, so don't go in expecting that. They don't compare outside of "futuristic, neon drenched backdrop".
It's uneven, to be sure. The writing and maybe half of the performances have some real rough spots, but that's easily forgivable since the world building is so compelling, it's visually quite sumptuous, and things always move along at a good pace even if the structure is off at times. When it goes all-out on the weird factor, it excels.
The show definitely gets better the deeper in you get. I've learned to enjoy the expository background moments and character building, even if they aren't the strongest and sometimes fall completely flat. Unfortunately, the actress they tapped to play Takeshi's sister isn't selling it quite as much as she probably should, but she's serviceable.
Not a terrible show by any stretch. They've got a lot of potential here for something truly special if they want to go in a different direction with season 2. Tonally this is a completely different thing from other cyber-punk offerings like Blade Runner, so don't go in expecting that. They don't compare outside of "futuristic, neon drenched backdrop".
Do you guys think they attempt Broken Angels or Woken Furies in future seasons?
Also, regarding Rei:
By the time they got to the episode where
I realized they primarily used that actress more because she's gorgeous than for her ability. I mean there's a TON of nudity there. I don't mind it but after the first few angles of the scene it's like, "This feels more like a showcase for beauty than acting ability," haha.
Also, regarding Rei:
By the time they got to the episode where
Ortega was just killing sleeve after sleeve of her
GoT handles nudity very similarly to AC, you can't give one a pass and not the other. Nothing you've written convinces me of your argument.
I love me some Spartacus but you might want to rewatch the first season if you think there wasn't needless nudity lol. I remember detailed shots of Manu among others flaunting way more dong for far more needless reasons than AC.
They could possibly adapt the other books, but the changes to the Envoys and Quellists would make a lot of that...difficult.
As for Rei and that fight scene, I just don't see how else you can do a scene like that without that kind of nudity. I didn't find it particularly exploitative. She definitely is gorgeous though, and if she was okay with showing that off, good for her.
There is way too much female nudity in this series. I have talked to a few woman that have watched this and all have said they they feel women were eploited, I feel the same. Many women in the show were hardly used apart from being naked or having sex. Even one of the main female characters of the show didn't have her character built hardly at all.
The acting is Sci Fi level at best and you can tell why many of the women were picked for their roles. The writing/ script were bad and you can see why when you see the show runner is Laeta Kalogridis. The visuals and setting were the things that hooked me, they are brilliant. Hopefully if there is a season 2 it can spend some money on some clothes for women and better actors
The acting is Sci Fi level at best and you can tell why many of the women were picked for their roles. The writing/ script were bad and you can see why when you see the show runner is Laeta Kalogridis. The visuals and setting were the things that hooked me, they are brilliant. Hopefully if there is a season 2 it can spend some money on some clothes for women and better actors
The 4 main female characters all had their stories, and all had reasons to be there and be a big part of the story. What are you even on about.
The wife hardly had a fleshed out storyline, it was just randomly dropped in the last episode. The show got even worse after the sister showed up
The wife story was all built towards the end. There were bits and pieces and slips of hints as to why it ended the way it did and how it happened throughout the series, but you kinda need to pay attention for those.
Uh, there's a reason for that.
As for her nude scene. It makes sense. That scene and her character is all about using her sex appeal to get what she wants. She was in the position of authority/power in that scene, and she is arguably the 2nd most powerful character in the show.
There are a couple moments in the show where I'd say the nudity was definitely gratuitous, though, and it involves Ortega.
Each to their own, I just felt there was too much of it for nearly every female character, I agree the Ortega nudity was the worst though. Maybe getting rid of Laeta Kalogridis would help the show
The way I think about how nudity is used in a tv show/movie pretty much breaks down like this:
Does it make sense for this character to be nude right now?
Is it for plot reasons? Character reasons?
Would the scene have been any different if she wasn't nude?
Let's look at two nude scenes:
I think more often than not, this show falls into the 2nd category when it comes to nudity.
Does it make sense for this character to be nude right now?
Is it for plot reasons? Character reasons?
Would the scene have been any different if she wasn't nude?
Let's look at two nude scenes:
Ortega walking around her home completely nude after waking up from a night of passionate sex? ...okay yeah I kinda get it and sure, I've definitely walked around nude in the comfort and privacy of my own home on multiple ocassions, but would the scene have been any worse/different if she had put on a shirt while offscreen?
Much later on, Rei inhabits Ortega's sleeve to fool Kovacs. Rei displays Ortega's nude body to
try and goad/provoke Kovacs. That all makes sense for Rei as a character and fits with her motivations. That totally makes sense to me.
Much later on, Rei inhabits Ortega's sleeve to fool Kovacs. Rei displays Ortega's nude body to
try and goad/provoke Kovacs. That all makes sense for Rei as a character and fits with her motivations. That totally makes sense to me.
I think more often than not, this show falls into the 2nd category when it comes to nudity.
She has an obsession with fireflies that's for sure. I laughed at the repeated attempts to maintain this metaphor.
As for the nudity, honestly didn't think the show was too bad in that aspect. I do think there are gratuitous scenes (of violence and sex) but I don't think it ever got to HBO or Starz levels.
As for the nudity, honestly didn't think the show was too bad in that aspect. I do think there are gratuitous scenes (of violence and sex) but I don't think it ever got to HBO or Starz levels.
Weird seeing so many reactions to some nudity. The whole thing is about people not being shackled to their body and it becomes a tool/status symbol. It would only make sense that they see their bodies as toys and aren't as hung up about it as we are now. Bodies custom built for power and attractiveness.
Honestly, it would feel out of place and just treating the audience like children to have a clone in a pod with strategic frost covering a nipple, but showing someone's throat getting blown out to show real death. Hey, boobs are omg, but the inside of people is fine to see.
Honestly, it would feel out of place and just treating the audience like children to have a clone in a pod with strategic frost covering a nipple, but showing someone's throat getting blown out to show real death. Hey, boobs are omg, but the inside of people is fine to see.
Thanks for the write-up. This was a really great read and I want to let you know that I appreciate you taking the trouble to write this, especially since I have no exposure to the books the series is based on, so it was great to read and understand about the changes that the show made.
I think you've actually made me wanna go read the books now.
Also, you're articulation of the positives of the TV show align very much with my opinion of the show. So again cheers for that.
By all means, you're entitled to disagree. My points aren't intended to convince you specifically anyway. I do disagree that the nudity in GoT and AC is similar in its handling. That's not even remotely true, imho. GoT use of nudity makes perfect sense in the scenes in which it appears, and it never appears forced or contrived, intended to titlilate the audience nor intended for the purpose of shock value alone.
In AC it just feels like you're being whacked over the head with tits and ass, in every episode. It rarely feels purposeful or natural in the setting (with a few rare exceptions).
I think you're confusing the amount of nudity with the purpose of it within the two pieces of fiction. I agree totally, that Spartacus was full of nudity and sex, but given the setting, it actually felt like the most natural and purposeful in the context of the setting and era it was based in, out of all three aforementioned shows; i.e. AC, GoT and Spartacus. In those times, there literally wasn't much for the wealthy middle-class to do for leisure aside from blood-sports and sex, so I'd argue that it was all absolutely necessary for the setting.
I have to agree somewhat. The nudity really did feel contrived and not naturally placed in the show at all.
I'm about halfway through, and what I'm getting from the story is that society has gone full circle and now that death is off the table, leisure comes down to blood-sports and sex. At least for the upper class who have the means and an infinite life span.
Sorry, I don't buy it.
It's the future. So you mean to say that all entertainment mediums that exist today, e.g. TV, cinema, books, sports, videogames etc.. have all disappeared and all anyone is interested in now is sex and blood-sports?
Doesn't really make sense. Hence why it doesn't feel natural to me watching the show.
In our future, probably not, but in the future depicted in the show...yes. The poor are trying to survive, and the rich are bored and upping their stimulation game to kill time.
It's intentional. Show runner said if these people could live forever in bodies that they weren't born in, some being synthetic, they wouldn't be modest. It's not really them people are seeing.
I haven't seen any comments from the show runner, but that's exactly the vibe I've gotten from the show. They did a good job building the word, the rules, and the morality.
I just posted this a few minutes ago:
I think thats the question that makes it really hard for Netflix to renew the show. Season 2 and season 3, if they follow the books and just sort of intertwine the stuff from season 1 that is new and left unfinished, would be massively expensive undertakings since it would be entirely new casts and locations every season. Most sci fi TV shows are super expensive season 1 and get cheaper later as they reuse sets. I don't believe any parts of 2 & 3 take part on Earth so all thats out.
On the other hand, if they go with brand new, unwritten stories that continue to try and reuse some of the same sets, that rarely works out well for adapted series - Game of Thrones gets a lot of hate for going into new uncharted territory, but then again it is the most popular scripted TV series in the world so it could work?
I guess it'll be a few more weeks until we find out, while Netflix collates the data. Stranger Things season 2 debuted Oct 25th and the official renewal didn't come till Dec 1st, so thats 5 weeks for one of their most popular shows, similar wait for season 1 and GLOW took almost 2 months for season 2 announcement.
From a gamespot article . Yeah, gamespot lol
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/why-theres-so-much-nudity-and-violence-in-netflixs/1100-6456578/
"There's a lot of bravery on the part of our cast, male and female, and a lot of commitment in trying to get across one of the core premises--because there are a great many interlocking ideas that we're trying to bring forward. One of them is that there is a disposability to the human body once you create this kind of technology," Kalogridis told GameSpot.
Our worst instincts as human beings have to do with our carelessness with natural resources, and when the body itself becomes just one more of those resources, how will we treat it? Will we treat it with such indifference and with such depersonalization that it becomes more like a very fancy car than a repository of the self?" Kalogridis continued. "And that, I think, is one reason that the nudity itself is not gratuitous; it's meant to reinforce to you, as a viewer, that the advent of this technology fundamentally and substantially changes people's relationships with their idea of their own body."
The show would have benefitted from more of him, that's for sure.
Its not the greatest TV show but its good and for some reason I want more and more which is a rare thing even for only good shows I watch. Its probably the atmosphere, quality production and of course the nudity(Ortega's body holy shit, even if she wasnt a good actress) that makes me want to see more.
I agree with some of the criticism, esp. around the writing, dialogue, and acting ... but my goodness what a great and compelling show. I love this world so much, and I love the entire conept of stacks and sleeves. I can't wait to see what other approaches to this universe look like, and I actually think there is a lot of room for little side watchmen-style vignettes that I would happily consume.
GoT nudity is really not required the majority of the time, I'm not sure you're remembering the earlier seasons that well.
In both shows, though, it fits: the time setting/decadence of royalty in GoT, and the Meths and other sleeves wearing their bodies like clothes hence not exposing "themselves" at all.
