Billy Mitchell's >1m scores in Donkey Kong were done on emulator, not standard hardware, maybe faked

pixeldreams · Feb 3, 2018

HStallion said:
Man Vs Snake is another decent documentary about the game Nibbler and a long time hardcore player that has many of the Twin Galaxies people including Billy in it.

Very much so, I don't seem much talk about this doc compared to other gaming ones but it is well worth watching. I didn't expect I would see someone that would be harder on themselves than Wiebe was in King of Kong

Megasoum said:
Also... Did Billy's annoying sidekick in KoK ever showed up anywhere again after?

He was in the Chasing Ghosts doc, along with a handful of other people who were in King of Kong.

A6502 · Feb 3, 2018

I'm 6 feet tall and I've met Walter and Billy, and I've stood next to all 3 of them. Billy is tall but certainly not 6'7" ! Steve is documented as 6 foot 2 inches; I'd say Billy is 6 foot 3 inches, just about an inch taller. Billy is super thin which makes him appear even taller. I also bet he dyes his hair black, I didn't see a hint of gray. Also, don't believe the fictitious King of Kong story. Billy and Steve are certainly not enemies and I've seen them talking and getting along several times. IIRC, Billy seemed to enjoy being made out as the K of K villain. And I've watched both play DK many times, they are both fantastic players, there is no dishonesty in Billy's skills. He mentioned to me that newer champions like Wes will mine the game for maximum points, and Billy kind of lost interest in keeping up with that strategy. For example, they will jump over double barrels, climb down a ladder and jump over them again.

Getting back on subject, it's disappointing to read that Billy used Mame but passed it off as real hardware.

ReBurn · Feb 3, 2018

Big One said:
Yeah unless there's evidence for tampering I don't see why emulators can't be utilized here.

Watch the King of Kong documentary and you'll understand why it is such a big deal that emulators would be used. It's at around 25 minutes in.The Twin Galaxies judges tore into Wiebe's arcade cabinet looking for any evidence that he might have been cheating after the high score video was submitted. They refused the score because the Donkey Kong board came from someone that Billy Mitchell had a beef with. There was a mysterious "gummy substance" on the corner of one of the chips, so they ruled that the board was doctored.

Emulators make it so simple to cheat. Billy Mitchell would be a massive hypocrite to submit scores gained on an emulator.

A6502 · Feb 3, 2018

I also bought his sauce .. it was freaking HOT ! :)

Border · Feb 3, 2018

I met Mitchell last summer. He's really quite the character. He seems to have zero interest in computers, technology, or the internet. I'd be kinda surprised if he was into MAME.

I hope this revelation makes him start competing again.....he seems pretty content to rest on his laurels. He knows that nobody is going to ever top his perfect game of Pac-Man.

staedtler · Feb 3, 2018

Lock him up and throw away the key.

Anth0ny · Feb 3, 2018

oh my god

this is like the ultimate ending to the king of kong story. fucker was using a DOCTORED BOARD all along!

Deleted member 2171 · Feb 4, 2018

Big One said:
Yeah unless there's evidence for tampering I don't see why emulators can't be utilized here.

Emulators are banned from speedrunning categories, or are placed into their own category, because not all emulators emulate accurately, or run the game faster, or allow glitches that don't exist on real hardware. And real hardware runs are sort of considered better than emulator ones by default.

These bans are generally decided on by the community, btw.

Z-Beat · Feb 4, 2018

Play Donkey Kong on Donkey Kong 64. It's the only way to be sure.

Deleted member 2171 · Feb 4, 2018

RockyMin said:
How about the DK Arcade game that's unlocked in DK64? Would it count if you beat the world record on that? Just wondering.

DK64 Donkey Kong Arcade is a weird situation because it's not emulated, it's actually a port. Same with Jetpac.

opticalmace · Feb 4, 2018

Jack Scofield said:
I can't believe this guy has kept the same exact style for 25+ years.

My dad has had the same mustache since 1972.

UltraGashInferno · Feb 4, 2018

FyreWulff said:
DK64 Donkey Kong Arcade is a weird situation because it's not emulated, it's actually a port. Same with Jetpac.

yeah isn't there some weird licensing issues or legalities that limits Nintendo's options with the original arcade game?

Deleted member 2171 · Feb 4, 2018

UltraGashInferno said:
yeah isn't there some weird licensing issues or legalities that limits Nintendo's options with the original arcade game?

Yeah it was actually done by someone else

http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php?topic=6126.0

It's why we always got stuck with the NES version whenever it showed up elsewhere, otherwise

Deleted member 4359 · Feb 4, 2018

Man I loved that film when I was like 11 :P

PHOENIXZERO · Feb 4, 2018

I saw the other, closed thread thinking this was old news and talk of him using emulators has been a thing for a long time but then had it pointed out these new developments.

Not surprised.

Inuhanyou · Feb 4, 2018

never liked his American flag tie or slicked back hair cut....but this is just another level of sad. Like the lengths you would need to do something like this

carlosrox · Feb 4, 2018

If Billy Mitchell is anything like he's portrayed in King Of Kong I couldn't give a shit if his score was a billion.

Richard Booth · Feb 8, 2018

HStallion said:
Steve Wiebe was always the real King of Kong

I've got a phone interview I did with Wiebe years ago where he talked a bit about mitchell. Pretty good stuff, I never got a chance to release it unfortunately.

SoH · Feb 8, 2018

https://kotaku.com/billy-mitchell-breaks-silence-about-donkey-kong-high-sc-1822815818

Mitchell gave an interview, ~~but it was behind a paywall~~, some details here.

Looks like they dropped the full interview on youtube

Gestault · Feb 8, 2018

SmiteOfHand said:
https://kotaku.com/billy-mitchell-breaks-silence-about-donkey-kong-high-sc-1822815818

Mitchell gave an interview, but it was behind a paywall, some details here.

My eyebrows are at my hairline reading this. I can't take a word of this defense seriously:

"I've never even played MAME. I don't have MAME loaded in my home," Mitchell began.

"The film footage that he has, that Jeremy has, shows MAME play," Mitchell said. "Now, I contend that if he gets the original tape, or he gets the original room shot, he will see that what I say is true. I'm not disputing what he says. What I'm disputing is the fact that I want him to have the original tape. And the fact of the matter is that that original footage was given to Twin Galaxies, Twin Galaxies has it or should have it, and if it's anywhere other than Twin Galaxies, that's a real problem."

Later in the interview, the host Dave McDonald brought up the subject again: "Let me paraphrase here for a second. There is a tape, that is MAME, that people claim is Billy Mitchell. Everyone says the tape is MAME, the tape is MAME. Blah, blah, blah. It's possible that it's not even Billy's MAME tape. That they're trying to pass off a MAME-d tape and say it's Billy when he had nothing to do with it." Mitchell did not respond.

The interview ended with Mitchell having put forth no substantive defense against the analysis of the gameplay videos. Instead, he focused on the lost video tape of the Boomers high score which he claims will exonerate him if it is located. Twin Galaxies has not made a final decision on the dispute.

Transparent rubbish. This premise of a "lost tape" is rediculous on several levels.

DrKelpo · Feb 8, 2018

SmiteOfHand said:
https://kotaku.com/billy-mitchell-breaks-silence-about-donkey-kong-high-sc-1822815818

Mitchell gave an interview, but it was behind a paywall, some details here.

so he basically says someone made video tapes showing MAME gameplay matching his high scores but these tapes aren't his? the analysed tapes were always the major evidence for his records, right? these were the tapes that were always publicly available, but he just now says they're fake?

looking at his case and Todd Rogers, I can just feel sorry for these guys.

Richard Booth · Feb 8, 2018

I watched it (somebody posted a workaround for the pay wall) it was painful to watch. Billy did try to talk but gave too much background and the host kept interrupting him. My friend Knucklez called in but even he wasn't able to get his point across. It was a terrible venue to try to make his point, but unfortunately the host is a friend of his.

Deleted member 2752 · Feb 8, 2018

I don't think I have ever heard a good story about Twin Galaxies.
They sound like a handful of nerds with no credibility who are in way over their heads.

Richard Booth · Feb 8, 2018

mnz said:
I don't think I have ever heard a good story about Twin Galaxies.
They sound like a handful of nerds with no credibility who are in way over their heads.

Haha I was the business development director there for five years. I can understand your point but I'd be happy to answer questions about them.

Hero_of_the_Day · Feb 8, 2018

The worst thing about VHS was its tendency to vanish into thin air.

Richard Booth · Feb 8, 2018

Hero_of_the_Day said:
The worst thing about VHS was its tendency to vanish into thin air.

It was hard because there wasn't a central office to send tapes to. They went to the referee's address and most of the time the tapes disappeared, or when refs left, there wasn't enough of an emphasis on returning the tapes, so most of them got destroyed, lost or are sitting in storage somewhere at the former ref's home.

Indy in the Fridge · Feb 8, 2018

So Mitchell isn't disputing that the game was MAME'd? He's just arguing about the footage? Should that even matter?

Gestault · Feb 8, 2018

DrKelpo said:
so he basically says someone made video tapes showing MAME gameplay matching his high scores but these tapes aren't his? the analysed tapes were always the major evidence for his records, right? these were the tapes that were always publicly available, but he just now says they're fake?

looking at his case and Todd Rogers, I can just feel sorry for these guys.

This is something I wish, since Mitchell is making a specific accusation, he touched on:

Nothing I'm aware of about the submission rules would prevent keeping a duplicate (or original) of the high scores. These are purportedly Mitchell's world record high scores, which he put a lot of time and energy into. Why wouldn't he have kept his own copy of the submissions? Is there a reason for this? There could be, but it wasn't offered over the course of an interview made to explain that point.

Again, he's creating this premise that the tape was stolen and switched. Someone doing that would have had to match his score/performance without being overly obvious about it being a cut-together performance (meaning exact to Mitchell's result, and also good enough to have the pretense of passing muster originally). This person would have needed physical access to TG over a long window to do all of this, and Mitchell isn't giving an explanation of who that could be.

Deleted member 2752 · Feb 8, 2018

Richard Booth said:
Haha I was the business development director there for five years. I can understand your point but I'd be happy to answer questions about them.

Why do they lose tapes all the time?
Why is direct feed allowed at all when it doesn't show the player or the system?
Why is someone like Triforce, who has a history of scamming people in the fighting game community, allowed near anything resembling a record keeping organisation?
How do ridiculously impossible scores like this make in on to the board AND get verified by a referee? (It's removed now)

KINGOFSHIBUYA Ltd. · Feb 8, 2018

I'm sure G4TV is rolling in its grave. They were always trying to convince us that he was the GOAT whenever an opportunity came up.

So much bafoonery from the past needs to be addressed, and I think this year it's starting. Twin Galaxies needs this.

Mahnmut · Feb 8, 2018

Cafeman said:
I'm 6 feet tall and I've met Walter and Billy, and I've stood next to all 3 of them. Billy is tall but certainly not 6'7" ! Steve is documented as 6 foot 2 inches; I'd say Billy is 6 foot 3 inches, just about an inch taller. Billy is super thin which makes him appear even taller. I also bet he dyes his hair black, I didn't see a hint of gray. Also, don't believe the fictitious King of Kong story. Billy and Steve are certainly not enemies and I've seen them talking and getting along several times. IIRC, Billy seemed to enjoy being made out as the K of K villain. And I've watched both play DK many times, they are both fantastic players, there is no dishonesty in Billy's skills. He mentioned to me that newer champions like Wes will mine the game for maximum points, and Billy kind of lost interest in keeping up with that strategy. For example, they will jump over double barrels, climb down a ladder and jump over them again.

Getting back on subject, it's disappointing to read that Billy used Mame but passed it off as real hardware.

I remember reading somewhere it was a character like in WWF. He deliberately acted like the bad guy.

DirtyLarry · Feb 8, 2018

Richard Booth said:
I watched it (somebody posted a workaround for the pay wall) it was painful to watch. Billy did try to talk but gave too much background and the host kept interrupting him. My friend Knucklez called in but even he wasn't able to get his point across. It was a terrible venue to try to make his point, but unfortunately the host is a friend of his.

Completely going off topic, I am born and bred in New Jersey. I also grew up from a very early age in the hardcore scene. There was this club Obsessions in Randolph NJ back in the day, and a band called Knuckle Sandwich always seemed to play.
Fast forward to pretty much 20 years later, and when all of this Donkey Kong stuff was becoming big thanks to King of Kong, I started seeing a lot of stuff pop up online. That is when I first heard of Richie Knucklez the gamer. He looked super familiar to me and sure enough he was the singer of Knuckle Sandwich. I still need to get to his arcade in Flemington.
(Assuming you are talking about him, if not ignore).
Although I cannot say gaming ever really crossed into hardcore all that much it was just one of those what a small world things.

DrKelpo · Feb 8, 2018

Richard Booth said:
It was hard because there wasn't a central office to send tapes to. They went to the referee's address and most of the time the tapes disappeared, or when refs left, there wasn't enough of an emphasis on returning the tapes, so most of them got destroyed, lost or are sitting in storage somewhere at the former ref's home.

and now Billy Mitchell claims the tapes that were analysed are fake, right? Of course, IF there indeed exist different original tapes, we obviously can't compare them, because they're lost. so what he's saying is, someone at some time exactly matched his then world records, but on MAME filmed them with similar lighting and camera conditions ... then these fake tapes somehow got in the hands of TG. The original tapes all got lost, every single on of them individually, but were then replaced with the fake ones. But seemingly these fake tapes were so well made nobody, not even himself noticed it until today.

So what exactly is the point Billy Mitchell was trying to get across in the interview?

tata toothy · Feb 8, 2018

I'd like to see how this guy would handle Donkey Kong '94...

Alebrije · Feb 8, 2018

Videogames serious business.

Griffith · Feb 8, 2018

Serene said:
So why are emulator high scores not allowed?

Like others said, there are many reasons and ways in which scores or gameplay can be manipulated but I believe the main, or at least the original, reason why they aren't allowed is because emulators don't behave 100% the same way as consoles did. There are particularities to the way frames are paced and updated that make small differences between the original hardware and most emulators, despite most modern emulators being very close or, in some cases, exact in terms of their emulation.

Scythesurge · Feb 8, 2018

It's pretty clear to me that TG became an "insider's club" to protect the old crew's standings...like I can't understand why people would lie and cover for Billy/Todd from any other perspective. I don't even doubt their skills in these games, since there have been some verifiable live plays. But to so brazenly manipulate records in the face of mounting evidence makes all of TG's record keeping compromised.

I watched Man vs. Snake over the weekend and I think Billy has definitely made efforts over the years to support competitive gaming (which of course I appreciate), but he just can't allow himself to look bad at any cost. Probably from his perspective he isn't causing any harm, but I think the ways he has kept down others' (i.e. Wiebe) achievements is awful.

Gestault · Feb 8, 2018

Alebrije said:
Videogames serious business.

Competition really is, especially to competitors. Twin Galaxies has a long history, which makes a lot of the sentiments on every side pretty loaded.

Richard Booth · Feb 8, 2018

Griffith said:
Like others said, there are many reasons and ways in which scores or gameplay can be manipulated but I believe the main, or at least the original, reason why they aren't allowed is because emulators don't behave 100% the same way as consoles did. There are particularities to the way frames are paced and updated that make small differences between the original hardware and most emulators, despite most modern emulators being very close or, in some cases, exact in terms of their emulation.

In my day emulator scores were allowed, however they were set in a separate category.

dose · Feb 8, 2018

SmiteOfHand said:
https://kotaku.com/billy-mitchell-breaks-silence-about-donkey-kong-high-sc-1822815818

Mitchell gave an interview, ~~but it was behind a paywall~~, some details here.

Looks like they dropped the full interview on youtube

So someone has made a MAME vversion of the video and claimed it's his yet they managed to get exactly the same record breaking scores as Billy Mitchell?

Richard Booth · Feb 8, 2018

Check out the King of Con if you can find it. It's made by Dwayne Richards and sheds a little light on what he's accused of.

Richie Knucklez is a close friend of mine and wouldn't make things up. I'll call him asap and see if he'll let me in on what he knows.

Richard Booth · Feb 8, 2018

JustSurvive said:
Very much so, I don't seem much talk about this doc compared to other gaming ones but it is well worth watching. I didn't expect I would see someone that would be harder on themselves than Wiebe was in King of Kong

He was in the Chasing Ghosts doc, along with a handful of other people who were in King of Kong.

Which sidekick? Steve Sanders or Brian Kuh?

ItIsOkBro · Feb 8, 2018

Serene said:
So why are emulator high scores not allowed?

Given that this was discovered due to how emulators rendered things differently...I think that answers itself.

Edge · Feb 8, 2018

jwhit28 said:
What is the emulator WR? There was a time where people would stream emulator WR attempts on Twitch but I haven't seen them in a while.

"There was a time?" Isn't that how 95% of all twitch streamer does it? Who is using original hardware on a twitch speedrun? Almost nobody.

Agent Unknown · Feb 8, 2018

Wow @ Billy's "defense" in that interview. Lost/stolen/switched tapes. At that this point it almost doesn't matter how King of Kong was edited and slanted because the overall narrative it presented about Billy and TG being a bunch of corrupt cronies was 100% correct any way you cut it at this point. lol

Edit: Someone seriously needs to make a new doc on the TG community at this point, plenty of new material.

Griffith · Feb 8, 2018

Richard Booth said:
In my day emulator scores were allowed, however they were set in a separate category.

That's fine, but the issue with these scores is that the scores were posted as if they were made on legitimate hardware.

DrKelpo · Feb 8, 2018

Edge said:
"There was a time?" Isn't that how 95% of all twitch streamer does it? Who is using original hardware on a twitch speedrun? Almost nobody.

um...no, actually a lot of them do. Most N64 runs are done on OG hardware I think.
Darbian got the Super Mario Bros record on OG NES.

Big One · Feb 8, 2018

To be honest I don't see why he doesn't just admit it was fake. He's got plenty of perfectly valid and verified scores and other landmarks. He could even spin it to suggest it was faked just for the sake of the movie or some other shenanigans like that. At least admit that it was running in MAME and he consented that.

DrKelpo · Feb 8, 2018

Big One said:
To be honest I don't see why he doesn't just admit it was fake. He's got plenty of perfectly valid and verified scores and other landmarks. He could even spin it to suggest it was faked just for the sake of the movie or some other shenanigans like that. At least admit that it was running in MAME and he consented that.

I guess it's basically the same as with Todd Rogers. Both built their whole lives on these records. Of course, they are exceptional players, but Todd's Dragster record and Billy's DK records were defining moments in their professional careers. They both created this image of "best gamer in the world" and "king of games". It would harm that image if they admitted it even though it would be the right thing. Also both of them strike me as the kind of persons who care very much for their public image and would rather spent the rest of their lives lying.

pixeldreams · Feb 8, 2018

Richard Booth said:
Which sidekick? Steve Sanders or Brian Kuh?

Steve Sanders was in it, I do not believe Brian Kuh was.

Billy Mitchell's >1m scores in Donkey Kong were done on emulator, not standard hardware, maybe faked

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