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Charsace

Chicken Chaser
Member
Nov 22, 2017
2,863
Decent show with insane budget. Drags at times, but I enjoyed it overall.

Never played Sleeping Dogs, but I really loved that actor. He was so much more interesting than Kinnaman


Yeah, the whole sister insane angle did not sit well with me.

Oh, and Poe fucking ruled.
alteredcarbon0202e.jpg

The show talks about how living forever fucks people up and why we need death. The brother obsession was his sister's form of crazy. All of the long lived and powerful people were crazy in the end.
 

PoppaBK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
Yeah, the whole sister insane angle did not sit well with me.

Oh, and Poe fucking ruled.
alteredcarbon0202e.jpg
I don't think the sister was insane, she was just like the rest of the meths, selfish and out of touch with humanity. She was trying to get him to the same point as her, seeing people as 'fireflys'. Most of what she did was for herself, getting her brother back was just a little aside, her main aim was to defeat the bill.
And yes Poe did indeed rule.
 

Truant

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,758
I feel the show changed a lot from ep 4-5 and on. It started out very noir and cyberpunky, but it's basically a video game now.
 

Thornquist

Member
Jan 22, 2018
1,499
Norway
I don't think the sister was insane, she was just like the rest of the meths, selfish and out of touch with humanity. She was trying to get him to the same point as her, seeing people as 'fireflys'. Most of what she did was for herself, getting her brother back was just a little aside, her main aim was to defeat the bill.
That was not the thing I had a problem with though. It's just the general idea that killing and hurting people the main character loves can drive him closer to you. Doesn't matter how much you say you do it out of love, it's insanity to think it will work.
 

PantherLotus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,900
I'm 4 episodes in. No spoilers:

— there are a couple glaring weaknesses on the cast and very much feels WB-esque at times;
— i absolutely freaking love this show and aesthetic;
— the entire worldbuilding around stacks and sleeves is so freaking compelling.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,595
I don't think the sister was insane, she was just like the rest of the meths, selfish and out of touch with humanity. She was trying to get him to the same point as her, seeing people as 'fireflys'. Most of what she did was for herself, getting her brother back was just a little aside, her main aim was to defeat the bill.
And yes Poe did indeed rule.
That all sounds nice, but that doesn't make sense with what we're given in the show. The sister very clearly states (and we see this in a flashback) that she betrayed the Envoys and killed Quell because they were taking Takeshi from her. She's insane and has always been insane, this isn't something that only started after she became a Meth.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
That all sounds nice, but that doesn't make sense with what we're given in the show. The sister very clearly states (and we see this in a flashback) that she betrayed the Envoys and killed Quell because they were taking Takeshi from her. She's insane and has always been insane, this isn't something that only started after she became a Meth.

The show also sets up that she does not want to die for the cause. She wants more life since so much of her life up to that point had been total shit.
 

KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,154
This show is so frustrating to watch. For every moment that is intriguing where it goes a layer deeper into the setting, the show slaps you in the face with bad acting and writing. It's like a less self aware, charmless version of Stargate or some B-tier Canadian sci-fi and that got a fuckton of money somehow.

I'm half hoping there will be a season 2 even if the story doesn't really need it. Dropping pretty much everyone from the present day cast would go a long way to fixing it.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,402
This show is so frustrating to watch. For every moment that is intriguing where it goes a layer deeper into the setting, the show slaps you in the face with bad acting and writing. It's like a less self aware, charmless version of Stargate or some B-tier Canadian sci-fi and that got a fuckton of money somehow.

I'm half hoping there will be a season 2 even if the story doesn't really need it. Dropping pretty much everyone from the present day cast would go a long way to fixing it.

That is what the book did.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,042
Seven episodes in so far, can't bring myself to agree with the message the show seems to be going with that

Sleeving is inherently wrong/bad.

The rich are always going to fuck over and rule the poor. Sleeves or no sleeves, that wouldn't change.

Extended life, Its something I would still like to see humanity explore someday.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
That all sounds nice, but that doesn't make sense with what we're given in the show. The sister very clearly states (and we see this in a flashback) that she betrayed the Envoys and killed Quell because they were taking Takeshi from her. She's insane and has always been insane, this isn't something that only started after she became a Meth.


It's more that she has mental disorders (they both do) as a result of their abusive upbringing but her elongated life and power as a Meth pushed that into a full blown disconnect with reality. She betrayed the Envoys and Quell because Quell's beliefs would have led directly to Takeshi's death. If that wasn't the case, then she wouldn't have betrayed them because she doesn't care about anything other than surviving and being with her brother.
 

Dragoon

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
11,231
OMG EP 9

FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!! FUCK! Just saw episode the first 10 minutes of episode 9.

200.gif


Man. I am so fucking mad right now. Fuck his sister and that little bastard. Wow... FUCK!
 

KingKong

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,492
I wonder how long it will take in Blade Runner style universes to build some roofs between buildings. Youd think people would get sick of carrying umbrellas 24/7
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,242
I wonder how long it will take in Blade Runner style universes to build some roofs between buildings. Youd think people would get sick of carrying umbrellas 24/7

Its not pee, its raining sleeve fuel from the meths! lol, it would actually be funny if the rain was something garbage tier humans needed to survive, like manna from heaven.

Really annoying, "progressive" review from the Times that spends half its review decrying how the main lead character is a white male
http://time.com/5128388/altered-carbon-netflix-review/
Time said:
For viewers, the mystery may instead be why Takeshi's sleeve takes the form of Swedish actor Joel Kinnaman (House of Cards) playing an Asian man living in a white guy's body. That's how it's written in the book, but onscreen it's especially problematic. The creators would have done well to instead cast an Asian actor as the reborn Takeshi, avoiding the same whitewashing controversy that plagued last year's Ghost in the Shell. In that adaptation, Scarlett Johansson played an Asian woman's consciousness inside a white android.

So its problematic if you recast/rewrite the source material as they did in GITS but its also problematic if you DON'T do that and keep it as the source material from Altered Carbon. Not very thrilled to see this sort of "representation is more important than story" angle from reviewers nowadays, especially considering all the ethical and moral considerations the show presents being completely ignored by reviewers like this.

The writer even says
Time said:
Rather than explore the ethical implications of this technology, Altered Carbon focuses on a mystery.

Which is completely false and super misleading to readers I feel. The show clearly DOES tackle and probe the questions "are you more than your sleeve? What does immortality do to the soul?"
 

PoppaBK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
That all sounds nice, but that doesn't make sense with what we're given in the show. The sister very clearly states (and we see this in a flashback) that she betrayed the Envoys and killed Quell because they were taking Takeshi from her. She's insane and has always been insane, this isn't something that only started after she became a Meth.
She was trying to save them. She knew quells resistance would lead to their deaths. I mean she was mercenary, but it wasn't like her brother was a monk, he had murdered countless people.
 

RandomError

Member
Oct 27, 2017
214
Entertaining overall. Could have used some refinement in the plot and dialogue departments. Interesting concept, and I'm excited to read the books now, given that it sounds as though the things I took issue with were show-specific.

Liked:
  • Poe. Possibly the only character besides Vernon Elliott that I found at all sympathetic (which, irredeemable characters being a Film Noir trope is probably the point). He has one job, and he does it with humour and style.
  • Production values. With the exception of the two mutants in the Fight Drome, I don't think there was a single misfire in terms of sets, makeup or special effects all season. This must have been ludicrously expensive.
  • World. Stacks, sleeves, functional immortality and their impact on identity, society, religion etc. Interesting and well-explored science fiction. The show is going to catch hell for the casual way it depicts extreme violence (particularly toward women) but damn if it wasn't effective at communicating just how decadent and depraved the world of the show has become.
  • Mystery. I thought this was a decent through-line, even if it does get lost among the themes and world-building at times.

Disliked:
  • Characters. Film Noir tropes notwithstanding, I didn't care for the main cast of characters, who were in general a pack of uninteresting, irredeemable assholes. In particular...
  • Kovacs. Straightforward murderous psychopath. No amount of tragic backstory excuses the things he does. And given the way the show ends, it's not clear how he continually gets away with everything.
  • Ortega. Hypocrite with serious anger issues. Does some horrendously unethical and illegal things (surveillance, sleeve-jacking, straight up murder) for personal gain with apparently zero professional repercussions.
  • Rei. The show sets her up perfectly, but screws the landing. Abused and abandoned, willing to betray everyone and everything to protect the only true family she has ever had. Using her wealth and power to orchestrate things from the shadows, becoming further and further corrupted and distant from the very thing she wants to save. The breakout plot and everything she does thereafter is just bizarre, culminating in the classic "I'll threaten and kill everyone you love to make you love me!".
  • Quellcrist. Cringe-worthy name aside, the wise mentor role and limited screen time made her a bit bland and characterless, which doesn't work with also being the charismatic rebellion leader and love interest. Being the inventor of stacks and the leader of the Uprising also doesn't work from a timeline perspective, and makes her look like a bit of a hypocrite.
  • Uprising. Druid-like commune of a dozen or so people hiding out on a backwater world while taking on a galaxy-spanning empire. I assumed from the start that they were fighting against the inequality caused by stack technology, so I was surprised when this was revealed as something of a secret. If this wasn't revealed until after Kovacs joined them, what were they fighting for in the first place and why wasn't this established?
  • Flashback episode.
    • Rei and Takeshi turning on their respective sides immediately, with zero discontent established beforehand, and neither know anything about the other at this point.
    • There's the big moment where the Uprising's purpose is revealed, the grand plan is agreed upon, volunteers gathered, and then the next mission shown is just some throwaway skirmish?
    • Were the fire, smoke and ash everywhere in the final Stronghold scenes there just for a dramatic visual? Wasn't the attack carried out digitally?
    • If Rei had Quellcrist backed up, why not have Kovacs backed up too?
  • Ending. Throughout the show Meths demonstrate an utter disregard for the law, yet the Bancroft's just go quietly at the end?
  • Dialogue. Minor instances of pure cheese ("Go fist yourself" - Really?) and too much exposition. For example, a character in the very last hour of the show re-explains to another what a slagged stack means. "You'll never see them again" - No, really? We understood this 8 hours ago.
  • Audio. Forgettable score. Odd use of contemporary music. I had to watch most episodes with subtitles on because I couldn't hear what the characters were saying half the time.
 

dmoe

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,290
Just came to say I watched episode 1 and really digging it. The pacing was great, the action was great. My man crush on Joel is stronger than ever. He's such a good wise ass
 

Deleted member 1067

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,860
Its not pee, its raining sleeve fuel from the meths! lol, it would actually be funny if the rain was something garbage tier humans needed to survive, like manna from heaven.

Really annoying, "progressive" review from the Times that spends half its review decrying how the main lead character is a white male
http://time.com/5128388/altered-carbon-netflix-review/


So its problematic if you recast/rewrite the source material as they did in GITS but its also problematic if you DON'T do that and keep it as the source material from Altered Carbon. Not very thrilled to see this sort of "representation is more important than story" angle from reviewers nowadays, especially considering all the ethical and moral considerations the show presents being completely ignored by reviewers like this.

The writer even says

Which is completely false and super misleading to readers I feel. The show clearly DOES tackle and probe the questions "are you more than your sleeve? What does immortality do to the soul?"


Honestly I'd be much more acceptable of the casting if they went the route of the book and...
Used Byron Mann as Kovacs 2's sleeve in the last few eps.

Ultimately though they really were in a bad place regarding what to do with the plot on that one. So much of the sleeve thing with Kovacs revolves around him being forced into an alien body, both in terms of race and culture that just slapping him into an Asian body sort of defeats the point. Using any other minority is also a loaded issue maybe even more so than the "white washing". I mean Get Out came out less than a year ago and one of the core themes of that movie is the theft of minority identity represented by the antagonists literally inhabiting a black body. If they went that route and slapped him into a latino or black sleeve I can't see it going down any better than a white one.

Personally I feel that people criticizing the show for this are missing the forest for the trees. White washing is bad as a trope but ultimately I feel that one has to review something like that one a case by case basis rather than resorting to generalization as criticism. Like okay the white washing in GitS was obvious and terrible we can all agree to that I think. Criticizing this by using that movie as a hammer to smash Altered Carbon over GitS' own sins is resorting to sins of the father level argumentation by damning Altered Carbon less for its own handling of the subject matter of sleeves and more so for just being a science fiction movie and the baggage that comes with that.

I think we need to do more than just say "scifi has a history of noninclusive representation, therefore x is bad" and more look at the way this problematic issue is handled here. Ultimately does AC use Kinnaman in the role directly as a way to shut out minority representation, and is it damaging to minorities in the process? I'd say it /mostly/ does not. They could have better handled the issue and mitigated it for sure via not changing the plot in the last two eps to keep Kinnaman in the role and also maybe had Wholest of Men Pork Bun Eating World Champion do VA as the inner voice of Kovacs throughout the series. They could have had MC drive home more that he detests being forced into this body by the Meths in the first place (as in the book, he constantly brings up how he hates being in the broken down ugly ass white body vs a military grade and Japanese skin he's used to) to better drive home the point that that this is an asian man /forced/ into this place and something he detests thoroughly.
 

AkuMifune

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
486
Just to circle back, I thoroughly enjoyed the whole season. Contrary to how other posters felt I was actually more invested as the episodes went along. It's not perfect by any means, but really, really solid.

More please! Seems they've already written a way out of using JK as the protagonist moving forward but I honestly wouldn't mind him returning. They've already shown they're not really following the books anyway ;).
 

Storm Chamber

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
314
Episode 10...not gonna lie, I couldn't finish it because I felt I've seen enough.

Its a SyFy show with a better budget. A budget that should've been given to Dark Matter if we're to go this route.

All this because Reileen wanted a better life for her and her brother while Takeshi's just like "nah"

Its probably deeper than that but I can't be bothered
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Finished it today.

So, yeah, it was pretty disappointing. The main mystery was pretty intriguing and I thought we were going to get a cyberpunk noir show where the mystery is the main focus but it quickly shifts and the case because secondary. Like has been said a million times already, the writing is pretty weak and so is the acting, the main culprits being Kristin,
the sister and Liz.
It got to the point where I was happy that
Kristin almost died so I didn't have to keep watching her. Or that scene where Liz goes into the syndatic body made me think we were finally going to stop watching that actress, because she's really bad, and then she switches back to the original actress.

If they do a season 2, I really hope they completely overhaul their writing staff and get a better casting director. The concept and world is great, so I'd love to see some more talented people tackle on the show.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Also, the hook for season 2 is really dumb.
The sister goes through all of that to kill everyone and she backs up the person she needs to kill the most for...no reason. She just does it so there's another season and Tak has something to do.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
Just wondering, anyone else experiencing terrible audio with this show? I'm on ep 2 and I constantly miss dialogue, it's like they have REALLY low dialogue in some areas and the next second it's REALLY LOUD sound effects, so either turn speakers up to hear all the low dialogue and get blasted by the sound effects, or turn on closed captions to understand half the things they say.

Never had this issue with any other netflix show/movie before.

Running on a Denon 4300 and have all my settings set right for my speakers, at least for everything else it works but not this show.
 

henhowc

Member
Oct 26, 2017
33,460
Los Angeles, CA
Just wondering, anyone else experiencing terrible audio with this show? I'm on ep 2 and I constantly miss dialogue, it's like they have REALLY low dialogue in some areas and the next second it's REALLY LOUD sound effects, so either turn speakers up to hear all the low dialogue and get blasted by the sound effects, or turn on closed captions to understand half the things they say.

Never had this issue with any other netflix show/movie before.

Running on a Denon 4300 and have all my settings set right for my speakers, at least for everything else it works but not this show.

Yeah I ended up turning on subtitles. It's hard enough sometimes with Ortega's heavy accent but the sound mixing at times just makes it hard in general to hear dialog clearly in some scenes.

Sucks cuz it distracts from the visuals.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,714
Well i just finished it and the show really lost me after episode 8.

Reileen's introduction was not only ridiculously over the top but for being such a badass she went out like a wimp, that final sword fight was poorly choreographed which made it look like two people slapping sticks. I think the highlight of the show was the flashback episode to me, takeshi in his original sleeve is by far the most interesting and enjoyable character in the show. It's also probably one of the few times I ever felt like being an envoy was something that was actually powerful. More of the time while he is in his second sleeve he just gets dumped on lol.
 

Lady Murasaki

Scary Shiny Glasses
Member
Oct 25, 2017
680
Reminds me of Michael Burnham in Discovery, equally irritating.

It reminded me of her too. I don't get why they think that an intense woman must behave in such childish and arrogant way. Not to mention the acting.
I think that Ortega is less Mary Sue-y than Michael but this wasn't enough to make me like her or even care for her. And it was so obvious what was her role in the story, since her first scene picking up Kovacs.

The sprinkled humor [like that thing about the mechanic arm] just made her scenes even more unwatchable.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,096
Sydney
Seven episodes in so far, can't bring myself to agree with the message the show seems to be going with that

Sleeving is inherently wrong/bad.

The rich are always going to fuck over and rule the poor. Sleeves or no sleeves, that wouldn't change.

Extended life, Its something I would still like to see humanity explore someday.

Hmm not sure that is the show's message to be honest. I think the message is more condemnatory of the way we apply technology for our own selfish purposes and use it to create inequality.

Something as liberating on the surface as freeing our minds from our bodies so we can explore the stars is instantly abused to create control systems. Kind of like how the internet a few decades ago was hailed as an arbiter of the democratisation of information and communication but in reality became a strong tool for inequality and control.

I think there's an exchange between Ortega's mum and her partner where she questions when things got so complex and he points out it's a problem humans have always wrangled with.
 

Deleted member 984

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,203
Finished it last night. Didn't like it. Some good ideas but a poor plot, poor characters (except the hotel), crappy writing, acting was iffy throughout and the set design looked like a themed bar.

Still waiting for a high-quality cyberpunk/tech-noir series. Hurry up HBO.
 

hydruxo

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,409
The show has its issues for sure and I don't like Ortega at all, but it still has a campy charm to it. I like it a lot. It's fun.
 

Storm Chamber

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
314
Just wondering, anyone else experiencing terrible audio with this show? I'm on ep 2 and I constantly miss dialogue, it's like they have REALLY low dialogue in some areas and the next second it's REALLY LOUD sound effects, so either turn speakers up to hear all the low dialogue and get blasted by the sound effects, or turn on closed captions to understand half the things they say.

Never had this issue with any other netflix show/movie before.

Running on a Denon 4300 and have all my settings set right for my speakers, at least for everything else it works but not this show.
The scene with Bankrupt, right? I knew it wasn't just me or my TV.

Also,

Really didnt like how the only black person in the room got framed for Bankrupt's murder. She might've been a condescending bitch but I see right through that scene.
 

Lady Murasaki

Scary Shiny Glasses
Member
Oct 25, 2017
680
Some points about the ending (which, by the way, looked like a soap opera mess in that 'revelation scene' where every character steps forward to say something):

Were the fire, smoke and ash everywhere in the final Stronghold scenes there just for a dramatic visual? Wasn't the attack carried out digitally?

I believe the fire was part of the Praetorians action to erase the village and search for survivors. But it kinda sounded weird that the all powerful Envoys hadn't thought about the digital attack possibility since they even had VR training.

If Rei had Quellcrist backed up, why not have Kovacs backed up too?

I believe that she counted on the fact they would be physically together in the end, and decided to backup Quell only in the plane. Why she backed up Quell, is unclear and doesn't make sense since she hated her and wanted the brother all for herself, even with weird implications like on the Ortega's sleeve scene.

And she didn't have access to Takeshi's stack because the Protectorate put him in jail after Jaeger got him, so she couldn't put him on a sleeve alone.
  • Ending. Throughout the show Meths demonstrate an utter disregard for the law, yet the Bancroft's just go quietly at the end?
Bancroft was ''different'' and had his twisted sense of honor and crossing that line was just too much for him. For someone who killed himself, it does a little sense that he accepted to be punished.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
So does Prop 653 only apply to Neo-Cs or would it apply to anyone murdered? Which leads to my next question: is murder in this show only defined as Real Death or can someone be resleeved face their killer?
 

AtmaPhoenix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
The Internet
Was sick home from work yesterday so I ended up watching the whole series. Overall it's good but the high point is definitely Episode 7. While the conclusion and finale technically make sense, it's really all downhill through the last three episodes unfortunately.

Poe was the stand out character by far. Joel Kinnaman did a good job but I wish he'd stop getting stuck in stoic white guy roles. He's great as Holder in The Killing, and when he was allowed to not be brooding and sullen in this he was fantastic, too.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,161
Singapore
Episode 5 was kinda bad. The characters all come off as really stupid and the dialogue is pretty bad. Episode 6 was way better and surprise surprise, both ep4 and ep6 were directed by Alex Graves. I mean, it's still stupid but it was a whole lot more entertaining. The ninja action in ep6 was hilarious but cool. I liked the stupid ass Bebop and Rocksteady fight too.

Everything involving the Bancroft family now feels like forced comedy. So weird. I don't get Kovacs' sidekick either. Everyone just overreacts over nothing. Lots of bad writing...
 

Deleted member 21709

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,310
I'm trying not to read spoilers, but I just can't get into this. I can't get past the first episode. It is trite and boring, and Joel Kinnaman has absolutely no charisma.

Does it get better?

The sets/effects are uneven, but overall pretty good. Although the Blade Runner inspiration is a bit too on the nose at times.

That female cop is ruining this show for me. So damn cringy sometimes.

The main character's dialogue is cringey as well.. I just had to stop watching after he told the female cop he wanted to get some hookers at his AI hotel or whatever.
 

Classicrock78

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,217
San Antonio
Got a free month of Netflix seeing as much as i can before its up this show was pretty cool,dont know if ill keep it not that impressed with the horror collection
 

Jack Scofield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,449
Watched the first two episodes. Episode 1 was alright, but episode 2 was a total bore. I'm reading further reactions in this thread to see if I should bother watching more. I'm still not invested in any of the characters yet, and the murder mystery isn't enthralling.

I'm disappointed that the AI hotel manager is looking like a main character. There's something about him that I find extremely annoying and off-putting, and that AI meeting in episode 2 was such a drag.
 

Fuhgeddit

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,699
I'm trying not to read spoilers, but I just can't get into this. I can't get past the first episode. It is trite and boring, and Joel Kinnaman has absolutely no charisma.

Does it get better?

The sets/effects are uneven, but overall pretty good. Although the Blade Runner inspiration is a bit too on the nose at times.



The main character's dialogue is cringey as well.. I just had to stop watching after he told the female cop he wanted to get some hookers at his AI hotel or whatever.

I couldn't get into it after the 1st episode. I usually don't give shows a short leash but as life goes on, I realize what would waste my time.
 

BlueTsunami

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,499
I really like Ortega. Shes a strong and emotional character. Very empathetic for me. She elevates Takeshi due to him being pretty cold.