So what's your solution when someone on the left says something racist, homophobic, or transphobic? Do we just ignore them because we agree on some things?
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Rose McGowan gets into argument with Trans Woman at Book Signing
- Thread starter Boxy Brown
- Start date
- Status
So what's your solution when someone on the left says something racist, homophobic, or transphobic? Do we just ignore them because we agree on some things?
already know the first claim so i will not address this
the second: its related because a sexual assaulter is trying to confront a sexual assault victim during their book tour and the victim understandably reacted when presented with a comparable situation to her past trauma.
The fact you're willing to handwave away bigotry and transphobia is alarming here. "We can tolerate transphobia" is all too common and it's an attitude that is repugnant to me. Seems like a lot of people are willing to tolerate and even bolster transphobia in this instance because they can latch onto the whole coincidental pedophile thing. Which I agree is bad. But still. It's telling that many are quickly willing to let transphobia slide or even try to change the topic of the thread rather than just make a new topic for the pedophile thing.
So transphobia which very much influences how people view trans individuals in pop culture and has lead to the death of many transpeople isnt important and you want to dismiss transphobia completely wholesale to say one thing is worse than the other rather than just make a new topic about the pedophile thing. You would rather erase and shove transphobia under the rug rather than do what we an to acknowledge both. That's pretty telling too.
nobody knew she was a sexual assaulter until well after the incident though, so that doesn't really explain any of the actions from people who were there, or the transphobic comments from Rose
i parsed through the thread and saw no red font telling anyone to take this to another thread so thats moot unless stated otherwise
i already said transphobia was bad but theres a difference between actual actions undertaken and ignorance displayed by someone on the left, the latter of which literally being a lesser offense
i call to question the woman's intent then
knowing full well that they're a sexual assaulter and then going to a very public victim of sexual assault to masquerade under the pretense of real issues makes me side-eye her
Exactly. It's really telling the lengths people are going to to sweep transphobia under the rug here. The argument presented by inogneato makes no logical sense given information at the time.
What I am reading from this, is that bigotry-slips from "liberals" are okay because they really didn't mean it/was an accident/bigger fish to fry.
still waiting for you to respond
nah
you're treating rose and that woman (i refuse to say her name because shes a sexual assaulter) on the same level of ridicule and offense
So you're fine with all the numerous attempts made by you and others to sweep transphobia under the rug and to change the topi of the thread into something else entirely? It only makes logical sense to just make a new thread. Come on.
Oh Please.
Someone who sweeps transphobia being snippy and demanding a response at a moment's notice when they literally just posted. hmmmmm
i never swept transphobia under the rug and i continue to await an offiial statement
unless stated otherwise, its fair game in here
Being sanctimonious while being a sexual predator is something though
Nothing good is going to come out of this situation anyway. I don't think Rose gives a shit about being better considering her attitude.
Nothing good is going to come out of this situation anyway. I don't think Rose gives a shit about being better considering her attitude.
The woman's intent is separate from her message, which is also held by several people who aren't sexual assaulters. It's disingenuous to approach this like Andi is the only person in the world who thinks Rose is transphobic
the message is better presented when stated by someone without questionable intentions
Yes, you most certainly have swept transphobia under the rug. You're literally joining in with other transphobes who are trying to change the topic into something else when it would make way more sense to just make a new thread. Not only are you and others trying to change to topic, you come up with a million and one excuses to let Rose's transphobia slide. It's so transparent what you people are doing here. Especially given how common it is in general to "defend allies" that happen to also be transphobes.
I think it's about options. Blue Dog democrats are a good example. Most of them are pro-life. I am strongly pro-choice. But in a red state, your choice is a Blue Dog or a Republican. I would vote for that Blue Dog democrat. I think it does is no favors to start a huge conversation about how the candidate is pro-life and that is problematic.
Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line. We need to be a little more like the Republicans in this area. I was not happy at all with Clinton as a candidate. I was a Bernie Sanders fan. But when it came time to vote, I knew what was at stake, and a sub-par candidate (even a bad one) was a hell of a lot better than a white supremacist Russian stooge.
I think the question to ask isn't "is there something to criticize?", because for almost every person in this world that answer is "yes". Only a minority within a minority is going to match the level of purity some people expect and demand. I think the better question to ask is "what do I gain or lose with my actions?"
I am a staunch atheist, and I consider religion to be a disgusting and harmful force in this world at any level. But every candidate I have ever voted for is a Christian. I just have to accept that one of the most important battles for me is not going to be fought or one at every moment and instance of my life. I also have to accept that if I can find someone who generally agrees with me on where this country should go, that person is going deserves my support over someone who will take it in the opposite direction.
When there are only two options for a candidate, you are probably not going to be happy about either outcome. But you can be more or less happy. And when someone decides to go out there and fight hard for ONE of your interests (treatment of women for Rose), I think it is important to consider that most people are doing absolutely nothing at all in the public realm about this. Rose might be far from what you want in a spokesperson, but she is at least a genuine spokesperson on something important to you. I am not saying she should be immune to criticism, but context of availability is important.
If they apologize and seem sincere about it sure. Feel free to write them off all you want, but some of us aren't going to. Nothing Rose or Andi did yesterday gets them booted out of the tent imo. Andi seemingly being a pedophile however does and she can join Kevin Spacey and the others on the side of the road.
But I'm literally not? Sorry if I don't have more to say about a local trans activist (who wasn't a public figure before this) who also happens to be a sexual predator of minors? I specifically said she should meet justice. The most I've ordained of Rose is that her comments are transphobic and deserve critique. They both are separate occurrences that have nothing to do with each other.
who is writing them off? point them out
so are we going to continue to put words in my mouth and draw fake conclusions here
I haven't done anything of the sort. I'm looking at what you and others, such as Brady or Murdock, have been doing and continue to do.
Okay so now that we've acknowledged that, where do we go from here? Rose gets a mulligan because she's important?
Basically it's yet another instance among many of: "we can excuse this person's transphobia, they're an important ally". And they're using the pedophile thing as a shield for their actions. Like seriously, if you actually care about that, just make a new thread. I would say it's separate enough to deserve it's own thread. This thread wasn't made about that
What do I gain or lose with my actions? I can answer that easily. People want to call themselves our allies, and then they say incredibly transphobic things. McGowan compares ciswomen as being more women than transwomen. She misgenders us, and has racist views as well. We can gain a better ally by talking to her and pointing out what she's saying that is wrong or not. Our allies don't learn and get better by us shutting up and pretending that there isn't a problem. You can pretend that there's nothing to gain from that, but that's not the case. If we sit by and say nothing, our rights and the way we're treated won't change. We have to have these conversations, even with people who are mostly on our side, or else things just won't get better.
I'm not saying to throw them out completely, and I haven't said that at all in this thread. Its not all or nothing with people who are doing mostly good. But talking to them isn't pointless.
To be clear, excusing transphobia because the transphobe is a perceived "ally" is not acceptable and in the future will be treated the same as any other defense of transphobia.
What Andi Dier has done in her past is reprehensible – she deserves to go to prison and she deserves scrutiny. However, that does not absolve Rose McGowan of the statements she made in public. Please do not try to invalidate the questions that prompted those statements just because the questioner is a bad person.
What Andi Dier has done in her past is reprehensible – she deserves to go to prison and she deserves scrutiny. However, that does not absolve Rose McGowan of the statements she made in public. Please do not try to invalidate the questions that prompted those statements just because the questioner is a bad person.
Yes, unfortunately some are veering into defense of Rose and excusing her transphobic and racist behavior because what Andy has done in her past. The fact that Andi is a self admittedly a serial sex abuser of underage kids doesn't erase Rose's transphobic comments. Worse, while Rose has apologized in the past and called herself an ally to the transgender community, she did engage on transphobic comments once again while lashing out at Andi on the Barne & Noble videos that originated this thread. Instead of rethinking and reevaluating her actions, Rose once again made this situation about herself and posing as a victim, saying that Andi was paid to attack her.
What Rose should have done, in my opinion:
First, she should have learned from the other times that she was called out for her transphobic comments and never lashed out with transphobic remarks at Andi. Since she didn't, she should have apologized to the transgender community once again for how incredibly obtuse and transphobic her comments were towards Andi. Then, instead of focusing on herself, she should explain how she was wrong and commit herself to become an actual ally of all women and the transgender community as well, opening a dialogue so she could learn from others experiences, she should put her celebrity power for good use, and not just make it about herself. Finally, she should put the spotlight on the Andi Dier's victims, because unlike Rose, they aren't making this about themselves neither denouncing Andi's inexecusable actions to harm the transgender community, most of them have gone on record of opposing Rose's position towards the transgender community several times:
These girls, the victims that are coming forward aren't TERFs, they aren't misgendering Andi and they are calling out her in hopes to stop a serial molester that by her own admission from her now deleted Ask.fm thought that statutory rape shouldn't be a thing and that it was okay for her to date underage girls.
I think the best we can do here is to keep this thread to deal with Rose's transphobia and how she stubbornly hasn't learned a thing from this yet, but I also think we should give a platform so the voices of Andi's victims can also be amplified. I ask SweetNicole and Cerium what they think about us creating a thread to deal with Andi's accusations and amplify these women voices, they've been shouting about this since literally 2012 without being heard, and they clearly like most of us aren't excusing Rose's transphobic behavior pattern. They just want to be heard and get Andi to pay for her abuse. I know that it's a topic that could that could potentially attract those that will use this situation to attack the transgender community, but I also think we owe to the victims to amplify their voices, so as long as we can get the admin and mod teams to protect and enforce a thread about Rose's transphobic behavior and other about Andi's accusations, we should be fine. What do you think? Is this a good idea?
What Rose should have done, in my opinion:
First, she should have learned from the other times that she was called out for her transphobic comments and never lashed out with transphobic remarks at Andi. Since she didn't, she should have apologized to the transgender community once again for how incredibly obtuse and transphobic her comments were towards Andi. Then, instead of focusing on herself, she should explain how she was wrong and commit herself to become an actual ally of all women and the transgender community as well, opening a dialogue so she could learn from others experiences, she should put her celebrity power for good use, and not just make it about herself. Finally, she should put the spotlight on the Andi Dier's victims, because unlike Rose, they aren't making this about themselves neither denouncing Andi's inexecusable actions to harm the transgender community, most of them have gone on record of opposing Rose's position towards the transgender community several times:
These girls, the victims that are coming forward aren't TERFs, they aren't misgendering Andi and they are calling out her in hopes to stop a serial molester that by her own admission from her now deleted Ask.fm thought that statutory rape shouldn't be a thing and that it was okay for her to date underage girls.
I think the best we can do here is to keep this thread to deal with Rose's transphobia and how she stubbornly hasn't learned a thing from this yet, but I also think we should give a platform so the voices of Andi's victims can also be amplified. I ask SweetNicole and Cerium what they think about us creating a thread to deal with Andi's accusations and amplify these women voices, they've been shouting about this since literally 2012 without being heard, and they clearly like most of us aren't excusing Rose's transphobic behavior pattern. They just want to be heard and get Andi to pay for her abuse. I know that it's a topic that could that could potentially attract those that will use this situation to attack the transgender community, but I also think we owe to the victims to amplify their voices, so as long as we can get the admin and mod teams to protect and enforce a thread about Rose's transphobic behavior and other about Andi's accusations, we should be fine. What do you think? Is this a good idea?
It derails nearly every social identity and leftist group. Everything becomes insular Oppression Olympics to the point there is no solidarity or progress.
It's an occurrence between someone who's made openly transphobic statements and a paedophile. Why would anybody on the left want them as an ally?
I also think there's a difference between two people debating who's the most oppressed and pointing out the hypocrisy of somebody who's meant to be at the centre of a campaign against abuse who's also still making transphobic statements when transgender people statistically face more sexual violence than any other minority. Having standards isn't some amazing example of the left eating the left.
Unwarranted condescension aside, on your hypothetical 0-100 scale, I'm asking for a 10, and problematic offers a 1.
Can we all at least agree on this? Jesus, what a fucked situation for everyone. But fuck Dier.
So basically there both assholes?
It' interesting to see the divisions within this movement almost trying to tear itself apart. Just like the whole pussyhat thing.
It' turning into a bunch of victims trying to win the biggest victim award. Rose seems to try and say trans people don' have the same experience as women because they were cis men at one time so they had privilege. While Andi is trying to say being a transwomen has more danger than you and I am a bigger victim.
Honestly not a good look for either side. How about you are all victims and all have struggles and work together to overcome them rather than being petty and trying to say I am worse off than you and suffer more than you.
It' interesting to see the divisions within this movement almost trying to tear itself apart. Just like the whole pussyhat thing.
It' turning into a bunch of victims trying to win the biggest victim award. Rose seems to try and say trans people don' have the same experience as women because they were cis men at one time so they had privilege. While Andi is trying to say being a transwomen has more danger than you and I am a bigger victim.
Honestly not a good look for either side. How about you are all victims and all have struggles and work together to overcome them rather than being petty and trying to say I am worse off than you and suffer more than you.
Okay, that's not quite what's going on here. First of all, transwomen were never cis men. Being cis means that you aren't trans. McGowan's comments painted a picture that she feels that transwomen aren't really women because they haven't lived the experiences that she has. On top of that, she misgenders trans people and has said some somewhat racist things. Its not about oppression olympics to point that someone who wants to be an ally is saying transphobic and racist things. We want her to be better so that she can be a stronger ally. We're not looking for her to just pity us because of how dire a lot of our situations are but to provide an understanding of the experiences that we go through.
User banned (5 days) for misogynistic generalizations
This is such a weird female thing. If men have a common goal they look over differences and stand together, no matter what. If women have a common goal they tear each other apart because of petty reasons. Is it plain jealousy? It's not her job to be an ally. It's your job to be her ally. She is a symbol for sexually abused and raped women. And she might have said transphobic or racist stuff in the past, but that doesn't change what she stands for now. Which is fighting men that are abusive. And that's really all that should matter, because every side fight between women is just empowering those men by lowering their victims to the point of "she deserved what she got, she is transphobic/racist". And by losing focus of what's really important, that no woman, trans or cis, should be the victim of sexual abuse. For all I care she could be a complete racist, doesn't lower my opinion of her as a symbol for the fight against sexual abuse. So she is a stupid victim of sexual abuse, so what?
maybe google it next time instead of bumping an old thread with nothing relevant to add?
Don't bump old thread just to ask irrelevant questions. Discussion has run its course. Thread locked.
- Status