Rose McGowan gets into argument with Trans Woman at Book Signing

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 2, 2018

FireSafetyBear said:
Yes, sarcasm.

If you want, go through my post history and you'll see my history of defending trans, gay, queer, victims of assault to the death.

Never have I ever one fucking said anything transphobic.

I was making a sarcastic point because people are attacking Rose for no reason.

I stand for sexual assault victims, that includes them all by default. What makes it different for Rose?

It's also fucking bullshit I got a warning for transphobia instead of instigating or no warning at all.

Take it up with a mod or admin. If they think I should eat a warning or ban, then fine. Even in context it looks like you are comparing transwomen having concerns about McGowan's comments (which by the way no one seems willing to actually address) to men trying to hijack the movement. It's disingenuous at best.

ZattMurdock · Feb 2, 2018

FireSafetyBear said:
Yes, sarcasm.

If you want, go through my post history and you'll see my history of defending trans, gay, queer, victims of assault to the death.

Never have I ever one fucking said anything transphobic.

I was making a sarcastic point because people are attacking Rose for no reason.

I stand for sexual assault victims, that includes them all by default. What makes it different for Rose?

It's also fucking bullshit I got a warning for transphobia instead of instigating or no warning at all.

Here's my advice because I believe that we all can strive to be better: You were wrong. It might be unconscious or poorly worded, but it did sound like transphobia. Take the warning not as punishment, but an opportunity to step back and think. There's no need to get mad, and every fucking second on this Earth is one second more we have to get better and evolve. Don't waste it.

Kinthey · Feb 2, 2018

Ketkat said:
Do you think she would consider a transwoman who transitioned at an early age, like 12 or 13 on par with her experiences then?

I would imagine that she'd consider it closer to her experiences. But the experience of transitioning and having your first period are probably inherently different things.

ethanradd · Feb 2, 2018

Love Rose McGowan, she handled that confrontation well.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 2, 2018

Deleted member 15948 · Feb 2, 2018

ScribbleD said:
Trans women are women. They are not a "whole other set of issues." This is the problem. You are, by default, othering them by acting as if their problems and the problems of cis women deserve two separate movements..

Trans women are struggling for acceptance as women. Cis women are struggling for bodily autonomy. Both are struggling for equality, against sexual assault, etc. Obviously there's that overlap (intersectionality etc), but please let's not pretend that transwomen are, say, threatened by anti-abortion laws, which is something relevant to most cis women. Why is it unacceptable to acknowledge that there are a few different issues in play?

FireSafetyBear · Feb 2, 2018

ZattMurdock said:
Here's my advice because I believe that we all can strive to be better: You were wrong. It might be unconscious or poorly worded, but it did sound like transphobia. Take the warning not as punishment, but an opportunity to step back and think. There's no need to get mad, and every fucking second on this Earth is one second more we have to get better and evolve. Don't waste it.

I was trying to make a point because what happens when the next person and the next person and the next start publicly attacking Rose or anybody else as if they don't stand for them when they clearly do.

There's a reason it's #MeToo.

It includes us all. From all walks of life. Not #MeTooNotTrans or #MeTooNotAsians.

Rose obviously is having a hard time with everything going on and doesn't need more of this piling on her.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 2, 2018

norog said:
Obviously there's that overlap (intersectionality etc), but please let's not pretend that transwomen are, say, threatened by anti-abortion laws,

Anti-abortion laws target places like Planned Parenthood which also provide care to transpeople.

Ketkat · Feb 2, 2018

Lord Brady said:
I was honest. You just want everyone to agree with you. Sorry, doesn't always happen. Rose has been through a ton of shit. She's fighting battles across numerous fronts and paying a steep price for that. She's had to sell her home just to pay for the legal battle against Harvey Weinstein. So when I see someone pathetically attack her like this with no actual desire to have a conversation but just to attack and scream, I'm going to side with her. My empathy is for her.

Yeah, I understand having empathy for her. And that's fine. That doesn't mean you should just ignore everything she's said though. And that didn't really answer the question, so that's not really being honest?

Deleted member 932 · Feb 2, 2018

I don't think that transphobic comments should be condoned under any circumstance. Some people might be frustrated that someone like Rose, who said some things that come off as transphobic, is being put on a pedestal. Her experience should be valued and her words should be paid attention, but I think it's fair to calling her out on other things.

Deleted member 21380 · Feb 2, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
Feminism is trying to get out of being a white cis only thing to being more intersectional including POC, Queers and Trans folk. Rose has so much rage that is deserved but she lashes out in ways that hurt people more marginal than her.

This twitter thread is a good summation of that. I want her to be a voice i just want her to be a bit better or take some time for herself to heal and come back stronger.

Ok, just.. well.. Do you have any receipts of Rose McGowan actually saying these things? Because well... I don't see it there.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 2, 2018

Ketkat said:
Yeah, I understand having empathy for her. And that's fine. That doesn't mean you should just ignore everything she's said though. And that didn't really answer the question, so that's not really being honest?

Dude has a clear agenda. Just stop engaging.

Dropping Dimes · Feb 2, 2018

Ketkat said:
eaaah, that's not how it works. Transwomen actually face much greater adversity than other groups, and just fighting for women's rights on their own won't address these. And telling transwomen to be more sympathetic to ciswomen when a transwoman is asking for ciswomen to be more sympathetic to us is ridiculous.

No. You can't build the roof before you have a base. You are just a small part of a larger fight. There is just no possibilty that trans rights can come before woman's rights.
You have to fight with the larger group to reach a position where they can fight for the smaller demographics within.

It's the art of war. I wouldn't expect it to come naturally to a woman. ;)

SweetNicole · Feb 2, 2018

If you have problems or questions about a warning or ban, contact a moderator or an admin via PM. This is not the place to complain or air grievances with the moderation of this forum. Thanks.

Ketkat · Feb 2, 2018

Vicious79 said:
Ok, just.. well.. Do you have any receipts of Rose McGowan actually saying these things? Because well... I don't see it there.

They're from a podcast or interview of #107 of some RuPaul thing. Very descriptive I know, I'll find what its called and get it

Dropping Dimes said:
No. You can't build the roof before you have a base. You are just a small part of a larger fight. There is just no possibilty that trans rights can come before woman's rights.
You have to fight with the larger group to reach a position where they can fight for the smaller demographics within.

It's the art of war. I wouldn't expect it to come naturally to a woman. ;)

Yeah okay. Telling us to sit back and let the big boys have their turn before we get ours in who knows how many years is definitely going to work. Nice bolded line though

EightBitNate · Feb 2, 2018

FireSafetyBear said:
Publicly attacking somebody over non issues to get a reaction out of them have no place to discuss other than shitting on the person asking her the question.

???

How is discussing someone's behavior equivalent to "publicly attacking" someone?

.exe · Feb 2, 2018

Ketkat said:
The last one is TERF idealogy. "You don't know what its like to be a woman just because you "feel" it, you're still not living as women"

I can see how you could draw that from her statement, but at the same time I can also see how that is not at all the intended message; rather, she's saying how the transwomen she knows focus on their own experiences and don't recognize fundamental issues surrounding women's lived experience that have remained unresolved and overlooked -- which, based on the examples she gave, is probably stuff like periods/period blood being taboo, the sexualization/sexual objectification/fetishization of young girls as soon as they get into puberty, etc.

ZattMurdock · Feb 2, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
Feminism is trying to get out of being a white cis only thing to being more intersectional including POC, Queers and Trans folk. Rose has so much rage that is deserved but she lashes out in ways that hurt people more marginal than her.

This twitter thread is a good summation of that. I want her to be a voice i just want her to be a bit better or take some time for herself to heal and come back stronger.

MiraculousSwidge said:
Take it up with a mod or admin. If they think I should eat a warning or ban, then fine. Even in context it looks like you are comparing transwomen having concerns about McGowan's comments (which by the way no one seems willing to actually address) to men trying to hijack the movement. It's disingenuous at best.

I will take this one. I don't want the woman that lashed out at Rose or Rose for that matter to take some time for themselves and come back stronger. That sort of implies that either Rose's or the other woman's cause isn't valid, when both are. What I think is that like I'll repeat ad infinittum on this board and anywhere willing to hear it:

THERE. ARE. NO. PERFECT. ALLIES.

I hear and feel the pain on both this two women. They are on the same side, which is our side. What Rose said in the past is wrong, hurtful and I hope she takes this opportunity to rethink that. The way that the other woman went lashing out against Rose is understandable, but not the best way to get Rose to understand her struggle and pain. But we need both of them. We need every fucking single one of us. If we are going to fight this conservative wave that is spreading like a fucking virus across the globe, we better understand that we need to find better ways to direct our anger and frustrations. We need to rely on each other and reach out for understanding, not trying to win a competition on who is the most progressive voice out there. I honestly don't like several things about how Rose handle things publicly, but I think her voice is important and needed right now, not later. We need every single one of us, including the woman that lashed out at her to stand and fight, but not among ourselves.

KingKong · Feb 2, 2018

Ketkat said:
Her point is that she's lived as a woman. Us feeling like women doesn't give us a woman's experiences, and it comes off in a "You're not really women until you've lived our experiences" which isn't really fair when she has no idea when these transwomen have transitioned or what experiences they've gone through. Not to mention the "woman's experience" that she had differs drastically throughout the world and shouldn't be used to separate trans and ciswomen like that.

collige said:
A couple things though:
-There's no reason whatsoever to think that transwomen were somehow ignorant of the fact that sexism exists
-She completely fails at explaining what "developing as a woman"
-She somewhat implies that she is a gatekeeper of sorts for womanhood. Transwomen aren't obligated to ask her about shit. Furthermore:
--Asking about the experience of having a period is totally irrelevant unless you think that periods are a crucial part of being a woman. Which they aren't, and not just because of TERFs. There's thousand of women who practice menstrual suppresion for a variety of reasons
--Many transwomen will experience growing breasts so her "expertise" isn't needed at all

Like, basically everything about that statement is nonsensical

well see, those are good points and I agree with you. what I don't think is helpful is taking her statements (which were a tiny part of an hour+ podcast) and treating it as transphobic because you disagree with it

xbhaskarx · Feb 2, 2018

Is anyone who does anything on any issue supposed to do something for every group or every issue?
"You're doing X for group Y but actually group Z faces more adversity." Okay how about some of the other 7.5 billion people on the planet step up as well?
Should someone helping the homeless in Chicago be heckled because "people in Haiti are worse off"?

NameUser · Feb 2, 2018

Ketkat said:
They're from a podcast or interview of #107 of some RuPaul thing.

For anyone who wants to listen to it. Haven't found the comments yet. Gotta scrub through it.

Deepwater · Feb 2, 2018

I don't know how you can take a look at all of those past comments from McGowan and just be like "yep she was totally in the right yup". Even if she had a right to remove the other woman from her event, the comments she used "what have you done for women" "I'm not from your planet" are pretty exclusionary and deserve critique.

But what I'm not gonna do is sit here and tell trans folk the way she went about that is or isn't transphobic. Rose can be a victim in her own lived experience but that doesn't mean she can't do victimizing and harmful stuff herself. That doesn't mean you need to throw her away but if you aren't willing to engage with the critiques, especially from trans folk, in a way that's just you constantly defending your or Rose's trying to be "right". Yes, the woman in the crowd might have escalated to the point where it was disruptive, but how Rose responded to that doesn't sit right with me when you take into context all of the other things she's said about trans people

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 2, 2018

Honestly, if you're willingly interacting with someone who has built their career on being a transpobic shitheel, I have much less hope for your own opinions on transpeople. RuPaul is a piece of shit.

collige · Feb 2, 2018

KingKong said:
well see, those are good points and I agree with you. what I don't think is helpful is taking her statements (which were a tiny part of an hour+ podcast) and treating it as transphobic because you disagree with it

You'll note that neither of the posts you quoted explicitly called was she said transphobic.

Deleted member 20630 · Feb 2, 2018

KingKong said:
well see, those are good points and I agree with you. what I don't think is helpful is taking her statements (which were a tiny part of an hour+ podcast) and treating it as transphobic because you disagree with it

But those statements ARE transphobic, and that's not even the full extent of her problematic comments.

gutter_trash · Feb 2, 2018

norog said:
Trans women are struggling for acceptance as women. Cis women are struggling for bodily autonomy. Both are struggling for equality, against sexual assault, etc. Obviously there's that overlap (intersectionality etc), but please let's not pretend that transwomen are, say, threatened by anti-abortion laws, which is something relevant to most cis women. Why is it unacceptable to acknowledge that there are a few different issues in play?

Excellently worded.

The battle for women's rights is yet to be settled

capitalCORN · Feb 2, 2018

Deepwater said:
I don't know how you can take a look at all of those past comments from McGowan and just be like "yep she was totally in the right yup". Even if she had a right to remove the other woman from her event, the comments she used "what have you done for women" "I'm not from your planet" are pretty exclusionary and deserve critique.

But what I'm not gonna do is sit here and tell trans folk the way she went about that is or isn't transphobic. Rose can be a victim in her own lived experience but that doesn't mean she can't do victimizing and harmful stuff herself. That doesn't mean you need to throw her away but if you aren't willing to engage with the critiques, especially from trans folk, in a way that's just you constantly defending your or Rose's trying to be "right". Yes, the woman in the crowd might have escalated to the point where it was disruptive, but how Rose responded to that doesn't sit right with me when you take into context all of the other things she's said about trans people

Deepwater here right once again.

Whompa · Feb 2, 2018

jesus that got brutal towards the end. The heckler seemed a little...off? Feel like they're both fighting two different fights, yet the trans woman somehow wanted to be antagonistic

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 2, 2018

xbhaskarx said:
Is anyone who does anything on any issue supposed to do something for every group or every issue?
"You're doing X for group Y but actually group Z faces more adversity." Okay how about some of the other 7.5 billion people on the planet step up as well?
Should someone helping the homeless in Chicago be heckled because "people in Haiti are worse off"?

she was being asked to address comments she stated in the past that were transphobic. The situation you describe doesn't relate at all.

Deleted member 20630 · Feb 2, 2018

xbhaskarx said:
Is anyone who does anything on any issue supposed to do something for every group or every issue?
"You're doing X for group Y but actually group Z faces more adversity." Okay how about some of the other 7.5 billion people on the planet step up as well?
Should someone helping the homeless in Chicago be heckled because "people in Haiti are worse off"?

TRANS. WOMEN. ARE. WOMEN.

Deepwater · Feb 2, 2018

Whompa said:
jesus that got brutal towards the end. The heckler seemed a little...off?

If you've ever had to defend your personhood in front of a large group of people, it's really easy to get consumed in your emotions because it's really emotionally draining. I wouldn't describe her as off (especially since McGowan responded in a similar way), but just that it gets very tiring of having to explain to someone why you, and people like you, matter when you feel like the person on the other end doesn't take that serious

Blue Sky Noise · Feb 2, 2018

yeah you could tell immediately that exchange was not gonna go well.. I empathise with the two women involved. Fuck off with your 'meltdown' comments aimed at either of them anyway, passionately speaking your mind is something more people should do.

TyrantII · Feb 2, 2018

The women approached the topic wrong and is not helping.

Why that accusatory tone, rather than a legitimate question and conversation.

Fighting your allies is real smart lady. Good job.

Deleted member 932 · Feb 2, 2018

Deepwater said:
I don't know how you can take a look at all of those past comments from McGowan and just be like "yep she was totally in the right yup". Even if she had a right to remove the other woman from her event, the comments she used "what have you done for women" "I'm not from your planet" are pretty exclusionary and deserve critique.

But what I'm not gonna do is sit here and tell trans folk the way she went about that is or isn't transphobic. Rose can be a victim in her own lived experience but that doesn't mean she can't do victimizing and harmful stuff herself. That doesn't mean you need to throw her away but if you aren't willing to engage with the critiques, especially from trans folk, in a way that's just you constantly defending your or Rose's trying to be "right". Yes, the woman in the crowd might have escalated to the point where it was disruptive, but how Rose responded to that doesn't sit right with me when you take into context all of the other things she's said about trans people

This is exactly I how I feel like, glad you post it.

prophetvx · Feb 2, 2018

ScribbleD said:
TRANS. WOMEN. ARE. WOMEN.

So why the outrage when she's promoting a book about violence against women? Is heckling at the event for not explicitly listing trans women or trans issues necessary?

Ignoring her comments in the past, which I wasn't aware of, the response was perfectly reasonable in isolation.

Ketkat · Feb 2, 2018

prophetvx said:
So why the outrage when she's promoting a book about violence against women? Is heckling at the event for not explicitly listing trans women or trans issues necessary?

Ignoring her comments in the past, which I wasn't aware of, the response was perfectly reasonable in isolation.

But it wasn't in isolation. The woman asking her questions was specifically asking about those comments.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 2, 2018

prophetvx said:
So why the outrage when she's promoting a book about violence against women? Is heckling at the event for not explicitly listing trans women or trans issues necessary?

Ignoring her comments in the past, which I wasn't aware of, the response was perfectly reasonable in isolation.

I'm gonna repeat this since nobody seems to get it.

SHE WAS BEING ASKED TO ADDRESS TRANSPHOBIC COMMENTS SHE HAS MADE IN THE PAST

Deleted member 20630 · Feb 2, 2018

prophetvx said:
So why the outrage when she's promoting a book about violence against women? Is heckling at the event for not explicitly listing trans women or trans issues necessary?

Ignoring her comments in the past, which I wasn't aware of, the response was perfectly reasonable in isolation.

Ok, but now you're aware of those past comments and there is no reason to ignore them because we live in a linear timeline where the past actually happened and we can address more than just the direct present.

KingKong · Feb 2, 2018

collige said:
You'll note that neither of the posts you quoted explicitly called was she said transphobic.

oh I know that, I'm quoting those posts as examples of good discussion

Deepwater · Feb 2, 2018

TyrantII said:
The women approached the topic wrong and is not helping.

Why that accusatory tone, rather than a legitimate question and conversation.

Fighting your allies is real smart lady. Good job.

Comments like these make people want to say "fuck you being an ally then"

If I had a dime every time a white person went "how do they expect us(black people) to support them when they act like this?!?", id have enough to retire.

If your support is contingent upon being made to feel good, then you probably weren't truly interested in supporting. You don't use your privileged status as a bludgeon when people of the less privileged class get angry at you.

Syder · Feb 2, 2018

If this is how discourse between women who at least claim to want the same things is happening in 2018, I think we are fucked.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 2, 2018

gosh, these trans people need to stop being so uppity. can't they just ignore their suicide and murder rates?

/s obviously

prophetvx · Feb 2, 2018

ScribbleD said:
Ok, but now you're aware of those past comments and there is no reason to ignore them because we live in a linear timeline where the past actually happened and we can address more than just the direct present.

I'm not ignoring them. I'm just saying if trans women are women, like you say, which I don't disagree with. Why is the person in question saying why aren't you fighting for trans issues?

I'm not defending her comments of the past but I don't think she handled a heckler disgracefully or had a meltdown, like was implied in the OP. Without context, this won't play out well for the heckler in the media and even with context, it's a bit of a non-event.

Deleted member 20630 · Feb 2, 2018

prophetvx said:
I'm not ignoring them. I'm just saying if trans women are women, like you say, which I don't disagree with. Why is the person in question saying why aren't you fighting for trans issues?

I'm not defending her comments of the past but I don't think she handled a heckler disgracefully or had a meltdown, like was implied in the OP.

You literally said

"Ignoring her comments in the past, which I wasn't aware of, the response was perfectly reasonable in isolation."

And by asking "Why is the person in question saying why aren't you fighting for trans issues?" you are continuing to ignore those past comments. The woman in the audience is calling her out for her history of transphobic comments, and Rose flips out and says some pretty iffy stuff even in that present moment.

Real Hero · Feb 2, 2018

heckler seemed stupid

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 2, 2018

"Don't label me, sister, Don't put your labels on me. Don't you fucking do that. Do not put your labels on me. I don't come from your planet. Leave me alone. I do not subscribe to your rules. I do not subscribe to your language. You will not put labels on me or anybody. Step the fuck back. What I do for the fucking world and you should be fucking grateful. Shut the fuck up. Get off my back. What have you done? I know what I've done, Goddammit."

She continued: "I'm not crying; I'm fucking mad with the lies. I'm mad that you put shit on me because I have a fucking vagina and I'm white or I'm black or I'm yellow or I'm purple. Fuck off. All of us want to say it. I just do. And you can label this thing as a breakdown. That, motherfuckers, is a breakdown. Maybe not for me, but for you. I might have information you want. I might know shit that you don't. So fucking shut up. Please systemically. For once. In the world. You know what I'm talking about. Just tell the God damned truth. Stop boxing everybody into shit. I didn't agree to your cis fucking world. Ok? Fuck off."

"Trans women are women and what I've been trying to say is that it's the same. The stats are not that dissimilar. When you break it down, it is a much smaller population. There's not a network here devoted to your fucking death. There's not advertisers advertising tampons with a camera lovingly going up a girl's body as she's being lovingly raped and strangled. Piss off. And until you can collect that fucking check, back up. My name is Rose McGowan and I am obviously fucking brave."

"Trans people are a minority so shut the fuck up, oh and be grateful that I exist please. Transwomen don't have problems, those homicide and suicide statistics are made up!

If you can't see how the entire rant is predicated on transphobia, you're a fucking moron.

Orb · Feb 2, 2018

Am I misinterpreting what she's saying in the second video, because it sounds basically like "if you don't have a uterus you don't get to speak about women's issues." Which is a very transphobic thing to say, and it seems like most people are ignoring it.

Deleted member 18568 · Feb 2, 2018

So to recap:

Beloved celebrity gay talk show host (Ellen) tweets about a gay rights issue.

Famous actress (Rose McGowan) hijacks tweet to say gay host should should be talking about "all women".

Famous actress is then hijacked on PR tour promoting her book by trans woman saying she should be talking about "all women".

She loses it. Drama drama. Twitter sells more ads. Poptrash video gets clicks. Everyone fights.

70 comments into this thread people are still reacting with zero original context.

The movement is called #metoo - not #justme - for a reason.

Depressing lack of critical thought. At this rate we'll have Trump until 2024.

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Feb 2, 2018

Vibri said:
So to recap:

Beloved celebrity gay talk show host (Ellen) tweets about a gay rights issue.

Famous actress (Rose McGowan) hijacks tweet to say gay host should should be talking about all women.

Famous actress is then hijacked on PR tour promoting her book by trans woman saying she should be talking about all women.

She loses it. Drama drama. Twitter sells more ads. Poptrash video gets clicks. Everyone fights.

70 comments into this thread people are still reacting with zero original context.

And at this rate we'll have Trump until 2024.

I mean no, but you have to get in a dig at the minority liberals in-fighting so I doubt you care.

Ketkat · Feb 2, 2018

Vibri said:
So to recap:

Beloved celebrity gay talk show host (Ellen) tweets about a gay rights issue.

Famous actress (Rose McGowan) hijacks tweet to say gay host should should be talking about all women.

Famous actress is then hijacked on PR tour promoting her book by trans woman saying she should be talking about all women.

She loses it. Drama drama. Twitter sells more ads. Poptrash video gets clicks. Everyone fights.

70 comments into this thread people are still reacting with zero original context.

And at this rate we'll have Trump until 2024.

You left out the RuPaul podcast she was on that she was being asked about here.

Rose McGowan gets into argument with Trans Woman at Book Signing

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