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Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
If I were forced to choose between reading BossAttack 's thoughts or an unending cascade of vacuous "I FUCKING LOVE THIS SHOWWWWWW" posts I'd pick the former. But of course I don't have to, as this forum is still supposed to be a place for discussion, not a simultaneous orgasm simulator. Don't get stuck on that image, let's keep moving.

And while I do generally agree with the idea put forward that it's not worth wasting time engaging with things one actively dislikes, to the best of my knowledge this is the only Star Trek show running at the moment; it's a long-lived franchise and people are going to want to see how it's being handled. Not to mention that if someone has been watching along in the U.S. they're unlikely to cancel that sub now in the home stretch, so we're all just going to have to get along. I think we can do it!

Anyway, here's the AV Club review

I love that he keeps giving these Bs as if that's going to keep him from getting killed.

I'm kind of surprised the show has a lot more fans than what reviewers at the AV Club and io9 would make you believe. It's getting a lot of traction online and even amongst friends that aren't big fans of Star Trek.

Which is the point I think. But also, I don't think there is just blind enthusiasm for the show either, not in most parts.

I see potential here in there for a good trek show (and a better show in general), which is about how I felt about The Clone Wars, Rebels, and other shows, and they all turned out all right. So, let's see where this goes.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,097
Sydney
Lorca didn't do anything wrong. He wouldn't have destroyed the Discovery. He'd have no reason to.

Michelle Yeoh is a horrible actress in this show. She was holding that rifle like a towel under her arm.

Well he wouldn't want a group of people he describes as having a "cult like fervor" to an ideology he despises roaming around in his universe, especially if they knew he was the new Emperor which is supposed to be a closely guarded secret.

And even if he doesn't kill them himself he's leaving them with a broken spore drive in a hostile universe to fend for themselves which again, fairly villainous.
 

Jackpot

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,827
If one ship from one species in one galaxy of one universe can threaten all life in all universes, then it stands to reason that there should be trillions of such ships.

Stamets doesn't some very cut-up about his lover dying.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,097
Sydney
If one ship from one species in one galaxy of one universe can threaten all life in all universes, then it stands to reason that there should be trillions of such ships.

Stamets doesn't some very cut-up about his lover dying.

That's an interesting point, if there are infinite universes there must be infinite civilisations abusing the technology in terrible ways, but maybe also infinite interlopers stopping them?

Or does the mycelial network have some kind of hand in stopping it?
 
Nov 2, 2017
592
It's a short season, fast story is how it works.

If they had those 20+ episode arcs, the show could breathe.

Yeah, buuuut the problem when you have an actual story arc across the season is that individual non-arc episodes can end up making it a very disjointed experience. It's fine in moderation, but all I can think of is Babylon 5 and Farscape. I love both those shows, but when I did a binge watch to finally see all the seasons in order every one-off "monster of the week" episode felt more and more like padding. I don't have time to watch those shows again, but if I did I'd want to see only the main arc episodes and not the dozen contractually obligated filler episodes in each season.

That's the thing with a lot of TV shows, they have X amount of story but are commissioned to produce Y amount of episodes. I'd rather things be trimmed down to a tighter, shorter season than stretched too thin. Netflix Marvel shows are also very guilty of this without even resorting to one-off eps.

Lorca didn't do anything wrong. He wouldn't have destroyed the Discovery. He'd have no reason to.

Michelle Yeoh is a horrible actress in this show. She was holding that rifle like a towel under her arm.

Hey. HEY. Michelle Yeoh is a stone cold badass who has been making action films since [guessing at average ERA member age] probably before you were born. If she holds a rifle like a towel, then that's the proper way to hold one as far as I'm concerned.

I tell you though, I've gone through some emotions with this show. First I was gutted that Georgiou, my new favourite Trek captain, only got two episodes. Now I'm gutted Lorca is gone because he was my new favourite Trek captain. I'm also delighted that Georgiou is now back... but well, she's not. Damn it, I love all these characters (apart from AshVoq who just annoyed me with his scruffy mopey hairiness) and now I'm just hoping they stick the landing.

Hell of an episode, hell of a show. I've been grateful Discovery exists as it's been a bright spark in a pretty bleak time of my life. The weekly episode drop has given me something to look forward to.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,958
If I were forced to choose between reading BossAttack 's thoughts or an unending cascade of vacuous "I FUCKING LOVE THIS SHOWWWWWW" posts I'd pick the former. But of course I don't have to, as this forum is still supposed to be a place for discussion, not a simultaneous orgasm simulator. Don't get stuck on that image, let's keep moving.

And while I do generally agree with the idea put forward that it's not worth wasting time engaging with things one actively dislikes, to the best of my knowledge this is the only Star Trek show running at the moment; it's a long-lived franchise and people are going to want to see how it's being handled. Not to mention that if someone has been watching along in the U.S. they're unlikely to cancel that sub now in the home stretch, so we're all just going to have to get along. I think we can do it!

Anyway, here's the AV Club review

I love that he keeps giving these Bs as if that's going to keep him from getting killed.

Someone gets it, I just don't understand people who are just, "well, if you don't like something stop watching it!" As if criticism should never be levied at a show. It reminds me of all the Snyderverse defenders with the whole, "it wasn't made for the critics, but for the fans." Get over yourself. I'll watch til the end of the season and I'll post my thoughts regarding the show until then.

Star Trek Newcomer reporting in on the last episode

Okay, as of now, I feel I finally have a feel for how the show is handling it's storylines, now that we've seen a conclusion to one of them.

I'm not sure what I was expecting to come into a Star Trek show, especially since I'm out of the loop on a lot of the stuff that the show is both building off of and subverting for the modern audience. At no point did I feel completely lost, but I had no idea when it was or was not breaking either convention or some rules from the old show. So I've only been resorting to judging it on the story premise its directly presenting.

I think the show has a lot of problems and a lot of promise. It's visuals are spectacular in every respect, it's cast is very entertaining to watch, and this latest episode makes me feel like the people running the show have some kind of plan that they want to deliver the conclusion to. I really wish I hadn't seen all the spoilers through this thread, like Lorca being from the Mirror verse or Ash being Voq, because it's delightful to find out that the seeds for a twist have long since been planted from as far back as the start of the show.

It also has some extremely well set up moments. Michael realizing what she was eating was excellent. The climax of Lorca dying and the Discovery escaping was excellent. Stuff like that, nailing the moments both big and small is good stuff. My ultimate point here being is that it's really, really entertaining to watch the show. Stuff looks pretty, it plays around with neat ideas, and it has fun with itself without undercutting it's drama.

The main thing that holds the show back is it's inability to just take a goddamn breathe. The show was sorta okay about doing this back in the early episodes where they were fighting a war, but also doing other stuff in the meantime, and I think it would have benefitted the show to have more of those kinds of just character moments. I wanted them to spend time developing the bridge crew because they are still just a collection of brilliantly designed set dressing to me. They look great, but who the hell are they?

This also hinders emotional moments as well. The scene where Voq reveals he's Ash to Michael was given a decently long reveal scene, but immediately michael has to go back to playing the role she was given, then deal with the emperor shit, then escape from the Charon, and now she's back in her own universe with her captain figure sorta back, except now they have to fight the Klingons all over again. I want some fallling action here. Let her just take a breathe and come to terms with the fact that she was loving a body altered Klingon this whole time.

The show works, but largely as a pulpy actiony thriller sort of show. This isn't a plea to be 'real' star trek because, as I've said many times, I don't actually know what 'real' star trek is supposed to be. But I always liked it when stories knew when to put their foot on the break and just take an episode or two to reflect on where they are, and that's what I need from the show for it to reach truly excellent heights. Right now, it's a sort of "pretty good", which might be just what it needs to be for ST to resonate with the modern audience, but I think it can be so much more.

Well, you can always go back and see what "real Trek" was, which was an emphasis on characters, exploration, and examinations of morality. In addition to a few action-pulp stuff thrown in here and there for fun. But, always maintaining a core of optimism and inclusivity.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,201
I don't get why being back to mirror universe made lorca super evil. From all you had seen, the core of his personality was a grey character. Not black and white. That said, the twist that he was from there was amazing in my opinion. I hadn't seen it coming. Would have been cool if the time jump had placed them somewhere where they could interact with characters from the old shows, like janeway, sisko, pickard etc. I like parts of the show and the visuals are spectacular, but the whole klingon war has been a bit of a mess. It does feel like the cast is starting to come together as a group.
 

Catsygreen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,362
I fear that I will not be able to share the enthusiasm. We lost the only real good actor on the show for a bad one. The empress in Warhammer cosplay who loses her empire in 2 minutes by 10 armed guys who know how to shoot on automatic turrets... lol. And that's it? For a paranoid empire, she only has emergency teleportation and waits for her death in an office? Are you serious right now? What was Burnham's plan? She was sure Lorca wasn't going to kill Philippa right away? Instead, we leave her behind with two guards. And when Saru shoots at the ship, we have the syndrome of the good guys who get up immediately and the bad guys sound so bad that they can't fight anymore. And yet another close-combat fight, it's not the strength of the show though.
I'm not even going to talk about the techno-babbling around the spore engine, the plan is ridiculous, even for Star Trek.
I know I look awfully hard with the show, But there are elements of intrigue, coherence and interaction that don't fit.The good point: Saru gains in charisma.
 

pestul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
692
Well Lorca did get Stamets to help wiping out decks 1-17.. which I'm assuming had a lot of soldiers. And many of her loyalists turned quickly.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
I don't get why being back to mirror universe made lorca super evil. From all you had seen, the core of his personality was a grey character. Not black and white.

Well, he was a character with an evil alignment pretending to be good. So of course he felt in-between, of course he seemed grey - he was pretending to be good but couldn't completely hide his true self, so the result is that grey man, a good guy who occasionally goes too far. The moment there was no need for the facade, he dropped it. This makes sense, imo.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,016
I don't get why being back to mirror universe made lorca super evil. From all you had seen, the core of his personality was a grey character. Not black and white. That said, the twist that he was from there was amazing in my opinion. I hadn't seen it coming. Would have been cool if the time jump had placed them somewhere where they could interact with characters from the old shows, like janeway, sisko, pickard etc. I like parts of the show and the visuals are spectacular, but the whole klingon war has been a bit of a mess. It does feel like the cast is starting to come together as a group.

Basically while he was in the prime universe he was able to blend in very well, taking advantage of the war to come off merely as 'hard, grizzled veteran', and knowing how to at least pay lip service to all the ideals. In the mirror universe, once he was off the Discovery and away from Burnham, there was no more need for such a facade.

Does it make his character less nuanced? Somewhat. He outright states he thinks the Federation is weak and not an ideal to be followed; indeed he's even more hardline than Emperor Georgieu about it. Almost everything we saw about him prior was an act, rather than genuine beliefs given the chance to come to the fore by circumstance, which is a bit odd given how that concept is one the show made into a bit of a theme with the Mirror Universe. But it does serve a general point (if one that, by the preview, is about to get more confusing), and I feel was reflected in a peculiar aspect of the character interactions this episode.

Namely... did anyone else notice that with Lorca gone, the crew was interacting more like a 'standard' Star Trek crew? The minor roles got more speaking lines with their names given out to make clear who they were, there was a briefing, plan building, and just... it all felt very 'Trek', for lack of better phrasing. Saru very much belongs in the Captain's chair, as his confidence is clearly growing, he's considerate of his crew, and he rebukes the idea that the Federation's idealism is a weakness. It's like Lorca was a corrupting influence that minimalised everyone outside of his personal sphere of preference. Also Saru yelled 'FIRE' I almost jumped out of my seat in excitement. Give that man a promotion already.

In light of the preview though, I think the ending line by Saru is a bit overblown, because as Cornwell states, they've lost 'only' 20% of their territory, which isn't really what the map shows - arguably because it only shows the parts threatened by the war, mostly in the Beta Quadrant - and that they've lost a third of their fleet. Both indications of the war going badly and the Klingons making firm advances rather than things going back and forth, and likely to snowball into certain defeat, sure, but that's not 'they've won the war'. They're winning. Semantics perhaps, but I feel like it's an important distinction in where this storyline goes and how it sets up for the cold war scenario in less than ten years - at least with the above that can perhaps be recovered from reasonably, vs if the Federation only had 20% of its territory left, for example and the Klingons had literally decimated their fleet. Then again, this isn't the first time Trek has sided with the idea that the nominal rivalry would very much go the way of the Klingons if things ran on long enough (see: Yesterday's Enterprise). I am made curious that the show is going to go back to flirting with the idea that maybe Terran/authoritarian tactics are indeed necessary to preserve the Federation's ideals and all; with Lorca firmly established as having actually been a pretty bad dude, it would be odd to go around tolerating the literal fascistic dictator because there's no way to win the war without her. Mind, Discovery has been very much a case of mixed signals on exactly how it feels about the necessity of military might and pragmatism - and what it might condone as a result - so while I'm a little concerned, until the episode is actually out I'm going to keep my fingers crossed. At the same time this is the franchise and fandom that outright celebrates 'In The Pale Moonlight', so maybe I shouldn't be surprised if it goes the other way.

...Man, I did like the episode in itself, but it does leave a weird aftertaste.
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,429
I loved this episode, loved it! When Saru gave his speech he felt like a real leader, he's clearly captain material. When they made the plan about destroying the orb and then did it I was so pumped, it was great to see the crew act like a team and everyone getting lines.

I love that Georgiou survived and is now on Discovery, I can't wait for her to meet Saru, that's going to be awkward. I like Michelle Yeoh and hope they find a way for her to stick around although this Georgiou is a kelpian slaughtering, xenophobic, people torturing, murderous human supremacist.
 

MrLuchador

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,486
The Internet
Damn this show might not be 'Star Trek', but I'm still enjoying it. It's a different Star Trek and I welcome it. All the other Treks are still there if I want to watch them.


The Green speck was Lorca's soul, right?
 

Wubby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,849
Japan!
I had in interesting thought. Being that Trek is in the future I would imagine the toilets would have sensors to scan poo to check for diet and health information about the crew members. What would happen when those scanners detect that Burnham (and Georgiou) ate Kelpian.

Really going to miss Lorca. Though it is interesting that the crew perhaps will always change over time unlike previous Treks.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,201
I think it's super weird that Michael is on the bridge now, yet she and Keyla hasn't talked once since she got back. The only words they have exchanged are when Michael said Keyla and Keyla walked away.

EDIT: In regards to what I said before about Lorca, the explanations given make him a bit of a 2 dimensional character, who can be 3 dimensional when required which I find weird as a concept. Instead looking at his actions you'd think he would have done differently if his true nature is pure evil, like killing the admiral who threatened to take his commision.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,016
I think it's super weird that Michael is on the bridge now, yet she and Keyla hasn't talked once since she got back. The only words they have exchanged are when Michael said Keyla and Keyla walked away.

EDIT: In regards to what I said before about Lorca, the explanations given make him a bit of a 2 dimensional character, who can be 3 dimensional when required which I find weird as a concept. Instead looking at his actions you'd think he would have done differently if his true nature is pure evil, like killing the admiral who threatened to take his commision.

Ah yes, because killing the Admiral that just visited him would have been such a smart move.

Then again it's hard to tell where exactly this shows falls on the 'ships can detect weapons fire aboard' scale.
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,880
Asia
Am I the only one hoping original Lorca also mysteriously avoided death?

Dammit. I guess I just feel like he would have been the next Garak if he survived. Scummy but ultimately essential.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,971
The main complaint you touch on though is Evil Lorca vs Evil Georgiou. Why the hell would we, or Michael, side with her? I can sort of see saving her at the end due to regret over "killing" her in the Prime universe. I GET that. But I don't get why she would, for the previous runtime of the episode, support her over Lorca. She made her eat a not-Saru only an episode prior and is literally an Evil Emperor who kills people at the drop of a hat, including bombarding that entire planet of good people a couple episodes ago with Mirror Sarek. Burnham siding with her at all, and the show wanting us to side with her, makes absolutely no sense.
This is my biggest issue. Empress Georgiou is like the war criminal to end all war criminals, and she's not regretful of it. If the show makes one major misstep it will be falling into the trap of so many cheap genre dramas before it of trying to "redeem" horrific characters while ignoring the actual content of their actions
 

Spectromixer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,619
USA
The questions that I have left going into the final two episodes are -

What happened to the ISS Discovery?
What was with the black badges? If it was nothing why did they make such a big deal about it in the beginning?
How does no one know about the spore drive in the future? (could be explained away as nothing big)
What was the Klingon plan with AshVoq? (could just simply be that they wanted a sleeper agent)
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,971
Anyway, here's the AV Club review

I love that he keeps giving these Bs as if that's going to keep him from getting killed.
I actually think this review is spot on, which is a shame because a. the first half of the season was a blast and b. I was so hyped for the mirror universe. But in hindsight everything is just too messy, too stuffed, too eager to rush along to give us emotional beats that it hasn't earned but that technically fit into a plot structure in the strictest of senses. Forget being a good "Star Trek show", that's not how I'm evaluating this, the deeper problems just make it incredibly hard to care about anything happening to these characters at this point
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,971
I increasingly feel like a bunch of stuff should have been Season 2. I get the realities of TV production, I get why that's not possible, but the Voq reveal feels so out of place and as excited as I was for the Mirror Universe we didn't spend nearly enough time on board the Discovery just doing other stuff for it to matter now
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,958
This is a minor quibble, but I feel like pointing it out anyway, I find it hard to believe Evil Lorca blended into the Federation. The reason being becausr of how evil the Mirror Universe is and true evil Lorca. He comes from a world where all non-humans are viewed as inferior, so much so that some are considered nothing more thsn food. How exactly does someone from that way of life adjust to the Federation?

To compare, it'd be like a white slave owner from the 1800s being transported into our world. Even if he was trying to fit in he'd likely slip up such as just dropping "nigger" casually, without even really thinking or just recoiling at the sight of free slaves or interracial realationships. Minor things that would be MAJOR departures from his upbringing.

Now, had they painted evil Lorca as less evil and wanting to change the Mirror Empire to be a tad more accepting, this could explain him not puking everytime Saru offered an opinion. But, him being just as, if not more, evil as Giorgiou makes it hard to believe how he could've suppressed everything he'd grown up with, including involuntary responses.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
I think the funny thing about this episode is that it really turns matters around on Saru - he immediately feels like captain material, and it feels like a natural place for them to go that'd be 'new' - a non-human captain of the main protagonist ship.

This is a minor quibble, but I feel like pointing it out anyway, I find it hard to believe Evil Lorca blended into the Federation. The reason being becausr of how evil the Mirror Universe is and true evil Lorca. He comes from a world where all non-humans are viewed as inferior, so much so that some are considered nothing more thsn food. How exactly does someone from that way of life adjust to the Federation?

To compare, it'd be like a white slave owner from the 1800s being transported into our world. Even if he was trying to fit in he'd likely slip up such as just dropping "nigger" casually, without even really thinking or just recoiling at the sight of free slaves or interracial realationships. Minor things that would be MAJOR departures from his upbringing.

Now, had they painted evil Lorca as less evil and wanting to change the Mirror Empire to be a tad more accepting, this could explain him not puking everytime Saru offered an opinion. But, him being just as, if not more, evil as Giorgiou makes it hard to believe how he could've suppressed everything he'd grown up with, including involuntary responses.

It depends, right? That slave-owner analogy is flawed because Lorca is, as has been demonstrated, smart. He's been trained, and from the looks of it is an expert in espionage and subterfuge, and even in things like resisting torture (we see an Agonizer scar on him early on, so he's clearly been in the booths before). From this we can assume he'd be better at controlling his impulses. Indeed, even Tilly is able to step up and do the reverse in becoming 'Captain' without getting rumbled (albeit briefly) and she's somebody with like a tenth of the resolve.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,016
I increasingly feel like a bunch of stuff should have been Season 2. I get the realities of TV production, I get why that's not possible, but the Voq reveal feels so out of place and as excited as I was for the Mirror Universe we didn't spend nearly enough time on board the Discovery just doing other stuff for it to matter now

Voq's just so weird to think on because at one level, that his plan's been screwed up without really coming to fruition arguably makes some degree of sense. It was a major roll of the dice and they really couldn't have predicted how things would play out, including 'getting pulled into another universe' - so that Voq is brought to the surface too soon sorta fits. Yet by the same token to it just feels like it didn't have much point to it beyond the creation of heartache for Michael. It's not like TLJ where the heroes are meant to be humbled by and grow stronger from confronting their failures and learning the need to consider 'what if this doesn't work'; Voq's the villain and hasn't managed to really affect anything substantially. He was never going to learn anything from it, especially not now that he's basically been deleted. Well, unless we get yet another twist and it turns out info he'd been feeding prior to the universe jump is part of why the Klingons are winning.

In any case, I would say Discovery has somewhat had to balance the expectation of modern serialised television to advance most of the storylines to some degree or another each episode, with maybe one or two episode breaks for any individual storyline, but not much longer. Something of a double edged sword because while many of the episodes have been dense in terms of plot, they haven't had - as many others have noted - the chance to breathe and let characters do stuff that is not related to said plot. Magic To Make The Sanest Man Go Mad is the exception that proves the rule in this regard I would say, in that the only wider storyline progression I can think of is that of Michael and Tyler's relationship; it's also one of my favourite episodes of the season thus far. It gives us some proper insight into what these people do when they're not working; yes it's war time as opposed to the other shows where they had the luxury and freedom to laze about in holodecks or play cards, but soldiers still find time to muck about. Hopefully with the new crew dynamic with Saru at the head we might be able to get such next season.

For some reason I like to imagine him as keeping a set of plants in his quarters. A little garden to tend for and occasionally snack from.
 

Watership

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,116
I don't get why being back to mirror universe made lorca super evil. From all you had seen, the core of his personality was a grey character. Not black and white. That said, the twist that he was from there was amazing in my opinion. I hadn't seen it coming. Would have been cool if the time jump had placed them somewhere where they could interact with characters from the old shows, like janeway, sisko, pickard etc. I like parts of the show and the visuals are spectacular, but the whole klingon war has been a bit of a mess. It does feel like the cast is starting to come together as a group.

He was trying not to be cobsoiconsly evil. He knew he'd get caught or removed from the Discovery .
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,958
It depends, right? That slave-owner analogy is flawed because Lorca is, as has been demonstrated, smart. He's been trained, and from the looks of it is an expert in espionage and subterfuge, and even in things like resisting torture (we see an Agonizer scar on him early on, so he's clearly been in the booths before). From this we can assume he'd be better at controlling his impulses. Indeed, even Tilly is able to step up and do the reverse in becoming 'Captain' without getting rumbled (albeit briefly) and she's somebody with like a tenth of the resolve.

Like I said, it's a minor quibble that can just be hand waved away with Lorca just being that great a spy. But, I still question it, especially since the Terrans likely don't utilize human spys to suss out Resistant alien species. I don't remember there being a single human helping out Voq or Sarak.

Again, a minor point, but due to how they set everything up concerning the mirror world, I find it hard to believe Lorca was able to so quickly check his impulses.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
Like I said, it's a minor quibble that can just be hand waved away with Lorca just being that great a spy. But, I still question it, especially since the Terrans likely don't utilize human spys to suss out Resistant alien species. I don't remember there being a single human helping out Voq or Sarak.

Again, a minor point, but due to how they set everything up concerning the mirror world, I find it hard to believe Lorca was able to so quickly check his impulses.

I think in pretty much all forms of genre fiction like this evil geniuses can do this sort of thing quite well, that's just sort of a given, but... We even see Burnham, against all her starfleet training, do the same in reverse anyway. The difference with her is we see her soul-searching in her private quarters. We don't really know if Lorca was furious or frustrated or seething at pretending to be goodie-goodie when he was in private, and he was certainly up to loads of non-Starfleet shit anyway, from us seeing him eating Kelpian in the prime universe to keeping a hostile lifeform aboard the ship and essentially torturing it, etc etc. The warning signs were there, and wasn't the entire point of Lethe, episode 6, to demonstrate that he was constantly riding the line? Somebody who knew the old Lorca was on to him and had pledged to take away his captaincy already, so I'd call it believable, honestly.
 

hurroocane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,866
Germany
Am I the only one hoping original Lorca also mysteriously avoided death?

Dammit. I guess I just feel like he would have been the next Garak if he survived. Scummy but ultimately essential.

That was my thought aswell. With the flood of plot twists I wouldn't be surprised if we get to see original Lorca. Maybe the Buran wasn't even destroyed and mirror Lorca made all of that up?
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,016
That was my thought aswell. With the flood of plot twists I wouldn't be surprised if we get to see original Lorca. Maybe the Buran wasn't even destroyed and mirror Lorca made all of that up?

Honestly in this context he probably blew it up himself because the crew had realised he wasn't their Captain, taking advantage of the Klingon attack.

Only way I see us getting a prime universe Lorca is that he was:
A) Aboard the ISS Discovery when it disappeared
B) Aboard the Charon and managed to beam his way to Discovery before it warped out, and is now hiding in a corner of engineering
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,958
Seriously though they better not with Georgiou or I actually will drop this show

Listen, the Federation is open to all people even genocidal fascists that take pleasure in eating member species. Everyone deserves a second chance, right?


Also, I'm sure some version of Lorca will appear in the future, but I don't see Isaacs staying on as a regular. I always viewed his time on the show as limited.
 

maxx720

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,835
Yeah, buuuut the problem when you have an actual story arc across the season is that individual non-arc episodes can end up making it a very disjointed experience. It's fine in moderation, but all I can think of is Babylon 5 and Farscape. I love both those shows, but when I did a binge watch to finally see all the seasons in order every one-off "monster of the week" episode felt more and more like padding. I don't have time to watch those shows again, but if I did I'd want to see only the main arc episodes and not the dozen contractually obligated filler episodes in each season.

That's the thing with a lot of TV shows, they have X amount of story but are commissioned to produce Y amount of episodes. I'd rather things be trimmed down to a tighter, shorter season than stretched too thin. Netflix Marvel shows are also very guilty of this without even resorting to one-off eps.



Hey. HEY. Michelle Yeoh is a stone cold badass who has been making action films since [guessing at average ERA member age] probably before you were born. If she holds a rifle like a towel, then that's the proper way to hold one as far as I'm concerned.

I tell you though, I've gone through some emotions with this show. First I was gutted that Georgiou, my new favourite Trek captain, only got two episodes. Now I'm gutted Lorca is gone because he was my new favourite Trek captain. I'm also delighted that Georgiou is now back... but well, she's not. Damn it, I love all these characters (apart from AshVoq who just annoyed me with his scruffy mopey hairiness) and now I'm just hoping they stick the landing.

Hell of an episode, hell of a show. I've been grateful Discovery exists as it's been a bright spark in a pretty bleak time of my life. The weekly episode drop has given me something to look forward to.

Please I'm hoping they will be done with him soon. He brought nothing good to the show.
 

maxx720

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,835
I'm looking forward to Captain Saru and evil Georgiou meeting. I wonder if she will start salivating at the sight. :/
 

hurroocane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,866
Germany
Seriously though they better not with Georgiou or I actually will drop this show

Maybe mirror Georgiou helps the federation win the war against the Klingons or something? I mean she is the Dominus of Kronos after all

Honestly in this context he probably blew it up himself because the crew had realised he wasn't their Captain, taking advantage of the Klingon attack.

Thaaat's... a good point I hadn't considered.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
Space boners ruin everything. Such shitty way for them to trick Lorca and end him.


Unrelated but I started a TNG rewatch and holodecks are clearly a brand new technology, several of the crew have never experienced one.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,016
Maybe mirror Georgiou helps the federation win the war against the Klingons or something? I mean she is the Dominus of Kronos after all

That's literally what Mez is worried about - that the show will try to 'redeem' her by way of her help turning the tide (as suggested in the preview), even if it would almost certainly mean ignoring all of her crimes, whether or not they occurred in another universe.

And people thought the Iconians getting off easy in STO was dubious.
 

Effect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,945
Well Lorca did get Stamets to help wiping out decks 1-17.. which I'm assuming had a lot of soldiers. And many of her loyalists turned quickly.
Yeah her power base had crumbled pretty quickly. Let's not forget that Lorca was her right hand before he rebelled. It's not like he was a nobody. People on that ship knew him and what he could do so after he made his move they fell in line.

Space boners ruin everything. Such shitty way for them to trick Lorca and end him.


Unrelated but I started a TNG rewatch and holodecks are clearly a brand new technology, several of the crew have never experienced one.

Rewatch and listen to what is said again. It's not that a holodeck is new to them but that version and how detailed an realistic what they're experiencing is new. Based on what is said past versions existed that weren't as impressive as what they're experiencing during that scene. Also that scene is setup to explain more to the audience then anything as well.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,958
That's literally what Mez is worried about - that the show will try to 'redeem' her by way of her help turning the tide (as suggested in the preview), even if it would almost certainly mean ignoring all of her crimes, whether or not they occurred in another universe.

And people thought the Iconians getting off easy in STO was dubious.

Yup, like as bad as ST: Into Darkness is, they at least had the sense to make utilizing Khan blow up in their face and paint Robocop as a villain for simply coming up with the plan. The Federation should not be adopting the tactics of genocidal racists
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
Seriously though they better not with Georgiou or I actually will drop this show

I feel like she's gotta die. She was resolved to die anyway, so no doubt she will help the federation and absolve her soul - giving us the squishy "the federation is so brilliant it can even soften the heart of a dictator" moment, but also boxing her away so they don't have to deal with the touchy subject of how somebody like that should be punished. "What have you done to me?" she asks - she doesn't want to be in that world anyway. She'll help and sacrifice herself.

And that aside, Yeoh probably wouldn't be a TV regular and get locked up for the better part of a year of filming anyway, would she?
 

Gabora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,071
Sao Paulo, Brazil
Space boners ruin everything. Such shitty way for them to trick Lorca and end him.


Unrelated but I started a TNG rewatch and holodecks are clearly a brand new technology, several of the crew have never experienced one.

Couldn't it just mean that, at the time, only galaxy class ships had them? Do we ever see holodecks in other ships on TNG? (I'm due for a rewatch, I don't remember). Voyager has them, but the intrepid class is new.

Discovery wouldn't be the first series to mess with technology, since holodecks were introduced in Enterprise (though not in human ships)
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,016
I feel like she's gotta die. She was resolved to die anyway, so no doubt she will help the federation and absolve her soul - giving us the squishy "the federation is so brilliant it can even soften the heart of a dictator" moment, but also boxing her away so they don't have to deal with the touchy subject of how somebody like that should be punished. "What have you done to me?" she asks - she doesn't want to be in that world anyway. She'll help and sacrifice herself.

And that aside, Yeoh probably wouldn't be a TV regular and get locked up for the better part of a year of filming anyway, would she?

Yeah, this has the prospect of going the way of Vader's redemption if they're not careful about it. Ie, nominally justified because love of whatever, but doesn't really make up for all of what they did beforehand/