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:lol: Jet Set Radio is terrible gameplay wise
- Thread starter Chief Malik
- Start date
This is a pretty inflammatory, almost fanboy wars-level of post. You can't lump the entire Dreamcast fanbase into a single collective, or use one game as a reason to try and dismiss an entire system's *library* of games. If people aren't willing to do something so blatantly ignorant regarding other systems like SNES, PS1, Gamecube etc., I don't see why they'd try it with Dreamcast other than out of spite.
Besides, who are these "we" you're talking about? Yourself and maybe a handful of anecdotes? You can do this with just about any game, or any platform, but it doesn't make the attempt any less tasteless. I don't even think JSR is the best Dreamcast game, but I'm just making note on an observation in this post is all. Also having a different taste in games != the games you don't have a taste for are inherently bad games, that'd be drawing a fallacy.
EDIT: To the OP, keep in mind that controls and "gameplay" are not exactly the same thing. In fact "gameplay" is a pretty wonky term as-is. A game can still have a great campaign/play loop etc. but crummy controls. Take the classic RE games for example (just using a common go-to; I personally like the tank controls but they aren't for everyone, same as w/ JSR's controls).
It'd probably help to distinguish what you mean exactly, b/c you're using a catch-all like "gameplay" and then you end up with terrible replies like the one I quoted above :/
80+ hrs and the game hasn't teach me or given me a hint yet,
unless it was so vague that I missed it completely - by pure chance
I happen to stumble across someones post mentioning such technique existed in the thread I made earlier about
horses in Zelda botw.
OP
OP
It isn't a tony hawk game. And it approaches level design and its design much differently than Tony Hawk.
Additionally, this is indeed prime Sega, but if you find me a Sega-made Dreamcast game that doesn't control awkwardly (aside from Crazy Taxi), I'll be shocked. Shenmue, Sonic Adventure, SoA. The warts are part of the appeal.
Is today the "GOAT sucks"-day? Anyway, yeah the camera can drift off in an annoying way, however when you master the game it's very satisfying.
I played through it like ten times I think, on various platforms and still love it, wish it was on PS4 or Switch....
Future is easier but dumbed down and you can basically grind on every stick
I played through it like ten times I think, on various platforms and still love it, wish it was on PS4 or Switch....
Future is easier but dumbed down and you can basically grind on every stick
OP
OP
Some people like to talk bollocks I suppose. KORNdog in particular.
I wouldn't call them "warts" per-se; it is a part of their appeal, but at least they were trying to find unique/expressive control schemes for each game at the time. I think it's less about the controls in the games themselves being awkward vs. people just being conditioned/used to alternative controls that've now become commonplace and popular, and homogenized, therefore anything outside of that familiarity is met with hostility or at the very least, extreme caution.
https://segaretro.org/Smilebit#Members
Basicilly, before JSR, PC ports and Panzer Dragoon. After JSR, Ollie King, Yakuza and then mobile games. Now the staff for JSR is split between Yakuza and mobile games (the most recent being the Megami Tensei game with Atlus). The lead artist Ryuta Ueda is not doing anything creative seemingly, as he is at Yahoo Japan. One of the lead programmers began working on Sonic games since 2005 (was the lead on Generations programming)
I disagree with the "Sega games were always clunky" narrative. It's only true for some games. Sonic Adventure 1&2 control very smoothly actually, much like JSRF. Sega Rally also feels just as good as it came out. JSR was just very clunky when it first came out. JSRF improved on it on every way.
Jet Grind/Set Radio is my favorite Dreamcast game. I felt like 18-19 year old me mastered everything that could be done to 100% and got all the tags and unlockable characters. Fast forward to the re-release on PS3 and while everything from graphics to music aged nicely, I never realized until then that the gameplay was clunky and so off-putting. I don't know how young me did it, because adult me can't even beat the first half of the game.
You have to play the game on its own terms; that's the thing w/ many old-school games, they don't believe in the whole "QOL" stuff or whatever you want to call it. The devs had very particular ideas in mind regarding how to approach the game and part of the fun for players was to try "cracking the egg" and master the game i.e see what the devs saw and optimize enjoyment.
I can assure you there was a time people said the very same things about games like Resident Evil you're saying about Jet Set Radio now, but the difference is that RE has become big/popular enough to push most complaints about its controls, mechanics etc. to the fringe. You can still mention those things of course, and there may be valid reasons to do so from time to time, but generally it becomes more taboo to do the more a fanbase/popularity the game has (especially dealing w/ something like RE that's basically been pushed out to every system imaginable).
Games like JSR don't enjoy that level of popularity/fandom so at least partly as a result people find it easier to criticize (either fairly or, usually, unfairly) aspects of the game and that type of behavior isn't seen as fringe/taboo by the mainstream. I'm not necessarily saying that's what *you're* doing (tho I find your title is kind of misleading when you've been more about the controls and not the gameplay), but it's a behavior others may tend to do. Hell, some did it in this very thread, but I mean more in general.
Agreed, at least w/ the first part. I don't know what started that trend but if I had to put money on it, most likely it was a gamer not particularly skilled at the game they were playing and that game just happened to be a Sega game, and it just went from there. Tho in all honestly it probably started from the equally condescending/inaccurate "Sonic was never good" trend that unfortunately games like Forces continue to kind of validate (even when you can turn to the excellent Mania of just months prior to disprove it, and that's just one of many).
I honestly don't think those who play the games even understand what they're saying when they say it: Sega's stuff is rooted in arcade game design, where the main point is to be easy to PICK UP AND PLAY. Easy to play, hard to master, and in terms of big-name devs these days a lot of Nintendo's output follows the same mentality (and honestly kind of always has). Usually complaints about clunkiness (or worst yet, "jank") comes from people who are frustrated w/ the difficulty kicking them in the rear, but that's kind of the nature of arcade games (and yes, there are "fair" difficulty arcade games. The majority, actually, when you ignore quarter-munchers). It was a different time and gamers then had more patience to try and figure out the mechanics and best strategies to win with skill.
Somewhere down the line that mentality kind of tapered off unfortunately but this isn't the right time to get into that particular discussion :/
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I don't see why it wouldn't be, but there's a lot of holding "up" on the stick that might be uncomfortable for the wrist.
I think the key is sitting down and learning the game by trying again if you didn't succeed. Modern gamers lack this trait I think.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying.
I'm not saying Sega games are clunky, quite the opposite actually.
If they were clunky, no amount of practice would be able to do away with the clunkiness and thus the learning curve narrative would be meaning less.
There's a reason for Sega Rally 1995 to still be my favourite racing game of all time even after tons of more complex and advanced racers have come out over the past 22+ years.
But there's no way anyone can tell me that the first time they put in the game they immediately were good at the game.
Compare that to a game like Burnout for instance and it's "fun from the first minute".
But that's because the car almost drives itself, which takes so much away from what the game could be.
It takes quite a bit of practice to get good at Sega rally. and once you're over that hump, you never unlearn this it seems, at least from my experience and I still play the Saturn version a ton.
Exactly my thoughts, I'm totally with you. Seriously, I've said this many times.
It was never fun when it came out. For example, whose bright idea was it to assign the tag Boss interaction to the reset camera button?
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I wouldn't. Holding specific analog directions can be important in the game.
But that's the case with virtually every game out there. There's no single game where you're "good" or skillfully competent at it from the very start. Putting in effort to learn a game isn't really "getting over the clunkiness" because as you're intending to put it, you aren't actually describing clunkiness, you're describing a learning curve, which every game has.
If the clunkiness were there to the degree you're insisting (and fwiw, every game has at least a tiny bit of "clunkiness" or better to say, imperfections, about it. But that's what gives them their charm), then skill would virtually not matter as the game'd devolve into luck-based scenarios. It would make things like speed-running virtually impossible b/c you could never depend on consistent factors, and things like Sega's arcade games - by virtue of being arcade games - are built with speedrunning/mastery in mind.
Of course every game has a learning curve, but the degree to which this curve exists make a huge amount of difference.
Heck, I'll keep it simple.
Everyone can play Tic-Tac-Toe, not everyone can play Go.
Also, how am I being seen as the one who is arguing in favour of these game being clunky? ffs :-/
I should try this game, it's been in my steam library forever. I used to have a Dreamcast but I didn't have this on it to try unfortunately. Though I hated playing most things with that damned controller. Hopefully I won't find it as difficult to get into as OP!
never played jet set radio. I did play Jet set radio future and it's in my top 10 games. Maybe you should try going with that one?
Some games are just off-putting when you first play them. JSR is one of them.
Agreed. Basically a "I dislike X" kind of a post with not much more substance. You get everyone who disagrees trying to persuade them it's not bad and that's about it. Plus OP is running Tomb Raider in the browser, could be playing JSR in an emulator with mouse and keyboard for all we know. It's a dumpster fire.
Apologies if I'm insisting you speaking on one point when that isn't the case; it just all sort of spiraled off of Dooble's point which I felt was legitimate and your post he was replying to was kind of in the same camp/related interest.
Yes, different games have different scales of learning curves I agree, but with that being the case (and this is just me in general, not in reference to you since you've clarified) some people have an idea that there's a "perfect" scale of difficulty or learning curve every game should adhere to or else it somehow automatically falls short, and that's part of where the problem comes in with these kind of discussions. There is no perfect difficulty setting/learning curve that's applicable to every game out there, it's a ridiculous idea.
The bigger problem I think is that directly b/c of such a reality, people these days tend to judge a game's worth/quality/value on what THEY can get out of it and if THEY are good at the game, rather than on more neutral merits. Of course any judgement on a game is going to involve a bit of bias but these days it feels like people weigh their own personal level of skill/enjoyment out of the game way too heavily in how they ultimately perceive the game.
Sorry about the tangent, I have a tendency of weaving a lot of related points in-and-out but try not getting too lost.
Yep, I echo this. My post was pretty unclear about this, but yes, Sega games are clunky at first but once they click, everything is smooth sailing. You really never unlearn.
Really games like JSR and SA struggle when there's a lack of momentum but the game gives you plenty of tools to immediately gain momentum so it's nbd.
Depends on which version you buy. If I remember correctly, the original release did not allow you to use the D-Pad for directional input, and I'm certain the arcade stick lever mimics the D-pad and not the analog stick.
I couldn't really get through it because of the controls. Future is amazing though. Also replayed that on 360 so not incredibly long ago.
I was a DC fanboy but i've always hated the controller. Except for the VMU.
I was a DC fanboy but i've always hated the controller. Except for the VMU.
plenty of times that instruction is given to you if you talk with people on the stables, it is not something they tell you once and never again.
As pretentious as it sounds, Jet Set Radio is an arcade game at heart designed around arcade sensibilities and a prolonged state of flow, rewarding mastery and memorization of both its levels and their mechanics.
What you are describing is basically you playing something designed to reward mastery while having zero mastery of it, and something modern games go well out of their way to avoid ever happening for fear of players dismissing the game as "terrible gameplay wise"
What you are describing is basically you playing something designed to reward mastery while having zero mastery of it, and something modern games go well out of their way to avoid ever happening for fear of players dismissing the game as "terrible gameplay wise"
No, they aren't. Or at least, not any more than your typical game from other developers. Again, I have to bring this up: "you" (essentially anyone mentioning bolded) are probably conflating difficulty in mastery or instant gratification with clunkiness. They are not the same. Sega games have an arcade mentality to them. One of the most important tenets of arcade game design is to be easy-to-pick-up, hard-to-master. Easy-to-pick-up = simple, immediately clear and concise controls. Hard-to-master = Scenarios of challenge that require the player to utilize those controls within game mechanics/systems in a way that demonstrates understanding to sufficiently clear the challenge.
And again, *every* game has some degree of clunkiness to them, or perceived clunkiness, otherwise every game would be the exact same and completely homogenized. Failure on one person's part to gain proficient skill/mastery of a game != a level of "clunkiness" that's applicable to other people playing the same game.
No worries. I was just starting to think that I was somehow becoming dyslectic and was typing the opposite to what I was trying to say or something. ;)
Fully agree there btw.
There is no such thing as a perfect difficulty scale or learning curve since we are all different, from personal preference of difficulty levels to our own level of skill and heck even our mood on a certain day. And even that varies wildly from genre to genre or even on a game by game basis.
That's why I tend to be careful with negative assumptions about a game, especially when they tend to be dramatic as well like in the OP.
Yet when a game doesn't click with me, and yet I hear others talk posivetively about it, I always decide to stick with it a lot longer to see if it's on me, and my first impressions are a poor indication of the title overall, or if it's simply not for me, which does happen.
We're actually talking about just that in the pinball thread as I'm trying to get The Last Action cabinet to click for me, which will take some more time. ;)
The only thing that's bad about the original Jet Set Radio is that unlike the sequel it didn't feature Cibo Matto's Birthday Cake.
Seeing the original in motion back in the day was mind-blowing. What a fun game. Wish Sega would at least port Future to modern systems, but considering the hassle they had to go through to get the licenses for most of the tracks of the original game for the port a few years ago I can see why they won't bother with it. Too bad.
"But it's moldy, mom, isn't it?"
Seeing the original in motion back in the day was mind-blowing. What a fun game. Wish Sega would at least port Future to modern systems, but considering the hassle they had to go through to get the licenses for most of the tracks of the original game for the port a few years ago I can see why they won't bother with it. Too bad.
"But it's moldy, mom, isn't it?"
I've 100%'d the game with a keyboard and mouse (which made tagging a bit too hard at first, but it was manageable), the game itself becomes crazy hard in the final act with the police/FBI folks constantly trying to bomb and catch you.
Future plays a lot better, but I do feel like the original is a lot more iconic.
Future plays a lot better, but I do feel like the original is a lot more iconic.
Unfortunately this seems to be the case these days. I still love playing JSR, feels great once you get in a flow.
The PC port that allows camera control with a second analog stick does a lot to improve the game. Even when I played it back in 2001, I couldn't get over the fact that you had to keep mashing the trigger to reset the camera behind you, it was even something reviews of the time mentioned.