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Current and former Quantic Dream employees denounce working conditions, toxic atmosphere
- Thread starter Maxime
- Start date
Does anyone know who made the pictures? Did Cage make them or ordered someone to make them?
I don't know the whole situation, but we should be very careful to judge a huge team of 200 people because of something that maybe is done by one or two people. Just my two cents.
I don't know the whole situation, but we should be very careful to judge a huge team of 200 people because of something that maybe is done by one or two people. Just my two cents.
Maybe , maybe not . I know people are capable of offering money to resolve these things but if a guy waits all this time to call them out and then walks away with some money, he's just an opportunist who's hurting the movement. While i agree the victims should be compensated it should be done publicly and hopefully in the court if we want to have any chance of fixing the actual problems.Using the current help he's getting to secretly make more money doesn't help the thousands who can't deal with this just by having some rich guy toss a tiny portion of their wealth in their face.
Everything has a consequence, just like people here calling for a shut down don't seem to want to consider that a lot of these people haven't quit or even come out voluntarily and that everyone, people who weren't involved and the victims stand to lose from game being cancelled and the studio going under. Their years of putting up with this shit will be reduced to nothing and they'll be out of jobs. The people who specifically helped bring this to light will be the last ones to land another one. Most companies don't hire based on moral indices until it involves a criminal record , and someone known to secretly disclose wrongdoings and malpractices won't be at the top of their list. While this certainly a case of extremes , bad workplaces are more common than anyone would like to admit ,you could have the best people in the top brass and there's still no guarantee that you never hire a bad apple. With how quickly that turns into a pr nightmare these days you can see why they'll be hesitant .
But let us not get presumptuous over these things and derail the thread. All im saying is that these are two very different scenarios for the time being and if there's something to discuss in the naughty dog case , it's important enough and belongs in its own thread.
i don't get it. A company adds loot boxes and gambling and it gets black listed. A company is racisit and sexist and super toxic but it's product gets a pass?
It's not Cage. It's one manager who constantly did it in his lunch breaks, displayed the images in the open and distributed them through the company intranet and mailing lists. Cage claims not to have known that they existed. The general managers says that they were only being sent to the people in the images, who were displaying them in the cafeteria on their own accord.
You really think EA is no longer going to make games cause of loot boxes?
You are asking for the publisher to CANCEL a game that has been almost 5 years in development and it is supposedly launching in the next few months...
I mean, you have to understand you are being incredibly naive, right? It just wont happen.
It shouldnt too. There are 150-200 people working in Quantic Dream. Not everyone there is a dickhead I hope.
Blacklisted by whom?
Besides some individuals who shared some of the images and the one who created them, aren't the entire company.
Sorry, you're pretty right. I didn't read most of the article enough.
I think the problem here is you think a company is automatically some monolithic entity of one mind and being. It's not. Whats important is what comes directly from the top and what doesn't, and also how problems are dealt with, or how specific problem makers are reprimanded.
But we're talking about a studio of close to 200 individual employees. As anyone in any major or larger scale organisation will tell you, you'll always get some asshole employees and issues. It is almost inevitable.
That is unexpected...
The content was mostly what one would expect though. Basically getting their ass out of the fire line.
Cage is the majority owner of the company along the another accused which is the co-founder (I always forgot his name). He's not going anywhere.
I think cutting ties with them after the project should be more than enough.
Anything they say right now will either make the public mad or the investors mad.
But this is not some judgement im passing , going by some of the recent posts im genuinely confused about the severity of this. I didn't realize that the only bit corroborated so far is these immature jokes.
That's the thing though, it goes to no end. Everything is involved in something that you technically "could be" or even "should be" empathetic about, however we don't do that, we usually either don't care or realize that there's only so much we can do and as long as it doesn't completely break your moral compass. Especially to general public, this is a gaming forum, and the people that are here are already extreme comparing to the general populace that probably play games. To the general public they don't know/don't care/don't think about these things. Honestly when someone first said Quantic Dreams my first thought was "I don't know who they are". While I've personally never bought any QD games, I saw a trailer of Detroit and Heavy Rain back in the day and I was intrigued, just not enough to the point where I choose to buy the games, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Obviously it's different now that these stories are coming out and some people are reading about it. But just like you said with all of your examples, to some people they honestly still couldn't bring themselves to care enough to prevent themselves from buying the game and enjoying it. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, people are selfish afterall. If I have to base all of my purchase decisions, entertainment choices...etc on being empathetic to people getting exploited, the hole just goes too deep.
What this has to do with what I said? It's not even the same case. EA also didn't cancelled an entire game because of it, just deactivated the MTX (and they're still alive and well) and Sony isn't going to cancel this project when they invested time and money with it. That would be stupid for them as a company.
Similar to te reaction when the Kevin Spacey allegations came out, they removed and reshot his scenes in a already complete movie, and have completely written him out of house of cards. This is the sort of response that doesn't glorify the person by having their work bought and profited from, but also allows the hundreds of other employees that work on the film and the series to not get thrown under the bus. What is the video game equivalent?
We're talking about dozens of employees that have been interviewed by 3 differents newspapers or websites. So the evidences are overwhelming. Yes, some employees came to the defence of the company, but only after David Cage motivated them internally the stories started to go public.
This is France we're talking about. The unemployment rate is still very high and it's not easy to find a job. So of course some employees will unfortunately accept those harassments rather than leaving for uncertainty or less interesting work conditions.
Again, David Cage needs to go. We're talking about the employee controversies, but there are questionable financial moves that could also been looked at...
But the worst thing here is the complete denial of David Cage. Any other companies would have said they would review things internally and make adjustments. But nope, it's just denial despite the tons of evidences.
Gonna be interesting to see how this shakes out. I wonder if Sony could quietly cut bait with QD after Detroit ships. At some point they might become more trouble than they are worth.
Kevin Spacey sexually assaulted guys. One of them was a minor. There were proofs. There was no way any company would still keep working with him, especially with the whole Hollywood downfall it was happening.
I doubt they would be that drastic if it wasnt something as serious as it was.
These accusations are nothing at all similar to what occurred with Kevin Spacey.
No need to try blow this up far bigger than it is.
I'm all for shitting on Cage but I hope people realize that if he goes, there's no replacement for him. For better or worse, David Cage is Quantic Dreams.
FWIW I don't see people calling for his resignation on french forums, only here. My hope is that this story breaking scared him and urged him to make things better and keep it that way.
(a friend of mine has been working at QD for the past eight years or so, so I wouldn't want the studio to close obviously)
FWIW I don't see people calling for his resignation on french forums, only here. My hope is that this story breaking scared him and urged him to make things better and keep it that way.
(a friend of mine has been working at QD for the past eight years or so, so I wouldn't want the studio to close obviously)
Got any evidence for that?
The unemployment rate is high among people with no or barely education. The big part of QD employees are professionals for a longer period of time. They should easily find a different job.
He owns the majority of the company. Those financial moves you're talking about is something the institutions in France should judge and not some people on an internet message board.
They don't deny those pictures, which are the only bigger piece of evidence we have.
Why should they cut ties? Maybe they can work with QD to fix the work culture; not that Sony has to.
I find it amazing how people are so quick to want Sony to drop QD.
Doesn't that fall under the initial "We categorically deny all of these allegations" response?
David Cage also denied having any knowledge of the photos, while the general manager said they were known and posted in the cafeteria of their own volition, and others have said that they were displayed in public, on the company intranet, and mailing list.
That's obviously a possibility, but being that they don't have any ownership stake in QD, it might not be worth the trouble to them. Ultimately it comes down to weighing the benefits of maintaining this relationship versus the negative press and badwill.
I'm not really sure, but David Cage hasn't had sexual assault allegations made against him, nor is he being investigated by the police for it. In that respect the farthest Cage is reported as going is inappropriate jokes. Its strange you would even compare the two.
Sorry I probably didn't make it clear that I'm not comparing the allegations, but rather the similarities in both being studios with 100's of people involved but still manage to remove the problematic person from the end product in a satisfactory way.
OP
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Updated OP with the Canard PC article (remember: It is very NSFW).
Also, Waypoint talked about the affair in their newly released podcast.
Also, Waypoint talked about the affair in their newly released podcast.
You have the reports from "Le Monde", "Mediapart" and "Canard PC", so if you want to inform yourself about the story please feel free to do so.
I don't see why you're trying to defend David Cage here. To fire your associate Guillaume De Fondaumieres with 100 000 euros in compensation and then to re-hire with a bigger salary and possibly higher stakes in the company, would raise eyebrows anywhere !
Evidences are everywhere, it's time to stop defending what cannot be defended. I hope Sony will move swiftly in the light of those recent details. But seeing how they handled the Naughty Dog controversy, I'm not confident it will be the case...
You are right. But the internet loves to find a cause to show how pure and right they are. So probable that they gonna charge the top hat man and don't care to further investigate.
He just want evidence. There are photos. But how do you know cage did it?
If you're not willing to take the reports from some of the most respected and trusted news publications around it's going to be tough.
As for the "they should easily find a different job" that's not true. In every specialized job market, even the highly qualified professional will have troubles finding a spot that has the combination of working conditions, salary, interesting projects and skill adequacy they trained for. In France, where there aren't that many high profile game studios, that market is even narrower. In Paris? Even moreso. I don't think it's as easy as picking up your stuff, telling Quantic Dream to fuck right off and set your mind on working for Ubisoft's mobile game studio instead. There just aren't too many comparable opportunities AND the competition from other EU or USA-trained developers does exist.
There's also the whole interview from last week, the multiple reports of Cage's direct involvement in mismanagement, insensitive remarks etc... Context is important, this isn't just about some stupid photoshop prowesses.
He's still very responsible for what's going on within his company. He takes full credit for the games and their (relative) prestige, he also takes the brunt of the pitchforks when the public learns about the working conditions behind those games. Nobody gets to cherrypick.
I never said I didn't care, I know what is being harassed more than most, I suffer from tourette's syndrome and try that on your high school or basic school, so yeah I'll never defend that shit, it brings you down and you really need to be strong to not cry or feel bad every single day.
So I feel bad for people in that position there but probably most people on the company didn't had anything to do with it and I'm really looking forward to this game, this won't stop me from getting, now if this shit continues I'll never buy a game again from that cage guy.
As I said hopefully this gets fixed, Kaz already said there's no place at Sony for this type of shit.
Also heavy Rain was great/amazing but that's just my opinion.
The double-edged sword with boycotting collective works because of the actions of individuals is always that you might end up hurting some good people in the short term. I'm sure that Quantic Dream has a lot of decent people employed and those people are going to be out of a job if the company folds due to a boycott or their publisher dropping them. On the other hand, by continuing to support the company and buying their products you end up fueling these horrible practices and behaviors because success doesn't give these people any incentive to change.
My opinion is that consumers in general and gamers in particular should be actively protesting against publishers, manufacturers and developers if their behavior, business practices and work ethic are not what they should be. Real, meaningful change often requires struggle and pain. Think about how many of your favorite developers might be suffering under brutal periods of crunch time, how many might be bullied or harassed by some asshole coworker, how many work their asses off for a game only to lose their jobs immediately after it ships. There are so many games out there, you won't die if you have to skip some of them by taking a stand.
My opinion is that consumers in general and gamers in particular should be actively protesting against publishers, manufacturers and developers if their behavior, business practices and work ethic are not what they should be. Real, meaningful change often requires struggle and pain. Think about how many of your favorite developers might be suffering under brutal periods of crunch time, how many might be bullied or harassed by some asshole coworker, how many work their asses off for a game only to lose their jobs immediately after it ships. There are so many games out there, you won't die if you have to skip some of them by taking a stand.
Really unfortunate to learn about all this as a fan of the games they put out so far. I hope its just a few individuals being stuck with terrible college grade humour. In either case I doubt this story will change much what Sony will do with QD or Detroit unless some more evidence comes to light. At best maybe force them to review those issues internally and fire some bad apples. What happens after Detroit is out was always gonna depend on how Detroit will perform critically and commercially. If it performs amazing I doubt they will cut ties. Its possible the game will take a hit due these stories of course (but the avg gamer usually doesn't care too much beyond if the game is good or not)
Finally catching up on this and this is pretty damn disgusting. To think I was a fan of this studio since the Omikron days. Well I'm definitely not buying Detroit day one now and if I ever do, it'll be used.
Really curious to see if Sony extends their contract with them. I hope not since corporate culture like that will never change if other companies or affiliations are complicit.
Really curious to see if Sony extends their contract with them. I hope not since corporate culture like that will never change if other companies or affiliations are complicit.
Not the best statement but at least they made one.
Did they take that journalist off the blacklist? Was it actually confirmed he was blacklisted?
User warned for downplaying photographic evidence
So it looks like it was blown out of proportion.
Like some have said, Le Monde (and journalism in general) is not what it used to be. In France and in many other places. Changes in bussines models, changes in society, the reasons are many...
Like some have said, Le Monde (and journalism in general) is not what it used to be. In France and in many other places. Changes in bussines models, changes in society, the reasons are many...
OP
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I really don't get how you can come to this conclusion after reading the allegations and the Canard PC's article. We're talking about toxic environment feat. an industrial scale of photoshops with homophobia, racism, Nazis, ... but also serious fraud regarding French labor laws, misconduct toward employees, cases of dozens of departures due to burnouts and depression, shady HR practices, bullying, sexism potential misuse of corporate financial assets ... What do you need to think this is serious? Murder?
Also, even if it was on another thread, attacking journalists and serious outlets isn't something the moderation is OK with.
Mediapart published their second article on the working conditions in the video game industry: https://www.resetera.com/threads/me...-working-conditions-in-the-vg-industry.18291/