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Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
I don't agree with this at all. I loved the flash-sideways stuff.

You may flovenit but that doesn't change it is literally all worthless. There are no stakes to the sideways stuff at all because it doesn't really exist. It's an "it was all a Dream" ending. It might be a good dream but it doesn't mean that it was real. Everything done in the sideways, all of the fights, births, piano recitals, didn't matter in the end.

Anything that involves plugging a giant wine cork into an island's hole isn't a good ending
Unless it's porn.
And it set up things and then properly paid them off.

It is also an ending you can put at the end of any show and it work just as well. It is a feel-good curtain call of an ending and nothing else.
Exactly. Gabe of Thrones could have an ending like that that renders half of the last season/book worthless.
I said that they were dicks once and that didn't make them dicks for all time. That's hardly ignoring evidence. That's pointing out that I can't extrapolate a thesis behind the mentality of the show itself from a single incident.
You keep saying it that they were dicks once but they've done it at least twice.

You know why people keep thinking that the entire show was in purgatory? It's because at the end of the finale broadcasted in TV, there were two short clips played over the credits. These clips showed the plan wreckage without any survivors in sight. This led many to believe that it was all purgatory and necessitated Cuse and Lindelof to come out and say that some ABC executive put those clips at the end to act as a buffer before the news. Years later, Cuse and Lindelof came out and admitted it was themselves.

Another instance is that they probably told reporters that Eko's actor wanted five times his pay to appear in the finale, but the actor came out and said it was a lie.

It seems like loving this show equal having bad taste.
Well i'm out of this topic.
I can't wait to see the end of Westworld and seeing you be angry about the lack of answers.
(same for GoT)

Considering that Westworld has answered its big mysteries in the first season, I think we're good. Creators look to Lost now as what not to do.
 

angel

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,333
Not to bring anything new to the table but I was a LOST superfan, marathoned season 1, the discovery of the hatch blew my mind, used to read The Fuselage for all the secret tidbits etc. Please dont quote me to argue but I've spent the last 7 years compltely despising the final season, especially the final episode, and the general concensus from all fan/forum/youtube stuff has been that it stunk. I'm really surprised people on here felt it was good.

To me they contrived the emotional stuff to the point where it felt false. Desmond finally meeting Penny was done with such poor acting and bad green screen effects (the LOST versions of other countries were always laughable, the corny photoshopped photograpghs on peoples desks, the backgrounds etc) that all drama was robbed. Then that final lazy conceit of an ending premise, the rubbish temple, the church, the fact that the whole thing felt like a waste of everyones time, the mistaken showing of a crashed plane in the credits. I loved season 4 and 5, but season 6 ruined so much that it destroyed it all for me. I dont care that it's illogical, I think you can ruin a body of work with an ending, and LOST is the ultimate example of how to throw away all your early work.
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,937
Its strongly set up as a parallel universe. They even carry out actions and get into trouble. Its not an afterlife until back of the season.
There's also that part that always looked like an obvious set-up to me, from the very first "flash-sideways" in the first episode of season 6:
JACK: Mind if I ask what happened to ya? [Locke is silent] I'm sorry, I'm only asking because I'm a spinal surgeon, I didn't mean to...
LOCKE: Oh, no, don't worry about it - uh, uh surgery isn't gonna do anything to help me, my condition is irreversible.
JACK: Nothing is irreversible. Umm, if you ever wanna consult, just uh, gimme a call. [Jack hands Locke his business card] - It's on the house.
LOCKE: Well thanks [takes card - reads name] - Jack Shephard, I'm John - John Locke.
Most of season 5 is poor but its made even poorer by the fact the Nuke did nothing. What was the point of that whole time travel plot?
Seems to me that at that point, nothing was irreversible indeed, the bomb was supposed to work and fix all that island nonsense, and we'd eventually get to see why flash-sideways Jack came up with that particular nugget of wisdom, just like we'd eventually get to see why his neck began to bleed for no apparent reason: island-Jack would eventually come to the conclusion (/ be told) that nothing was irreversible, he would get wounded, and those bits from the beginning of the season would be explained by some magical "bleed-over" effect (so the audience would go "woooow, they knew where they were going all alooooong").
Desmond was supposed to get the characters from the flash-sideways together in order to... do something? to help fix said island nonsense. Hence the urgency at the time.

But then, for whatever reason (maybe the writers just couldn't crack the plot), they ditched all that. So flash-sideways Desmond was just in a weird hurry to "move on", and the idea that nothing was irreversible and the flash-sideways could fix all that shit was just abandoned.
From the finale:
DESMOND: This doesn't matter, you know.
JACK: Excuse me?
DESMOND: Him destroying the Island, you destroying him. It doesn't matter. You know, you're gonna lower me into that light, and I'm gonna go somewhere else. A place where we can be with the ones we love, and not have to ever think about this damn Island again. And you know the best part, Jack?
JACK: What?
DESMOND: You're in this place. You know, we sat next to each other on Oceanic 815. It never crashed. We spoke to each other. You seemed happy. You know, maybe I can find a way to bring you there too.
JACK: Desmond, I tried that once. There are no shortcuts, no do-overs. What happened, happened.
Desmond learns from Jack that the writers changed their mind. Bummer.
KATE: Why did you take the job, Jack?
JACK: Because I was supposed to.
KATE: Why? Because some stranger wrote our names on a wall?
JACK: I took it because the island's all I've got left. It's the only thing in my life I haven't managed to ruin.
KATE: You haven't ruined anything. Nothing is irreversible.
Kate gets to finally utter "nothing is irreversible", except nobody cares at that point since, again, the writers have changed their mind, and that line is now meaningless ("but hey, let's still have it somewhere in there: the callback might somehow wow some easily impressed viewers, you never know").

See also what the showrunners were saying right after the first episode of the last season aired:
CARLTON CUSE: We thought just doing one [of those options] would inherently not be satisfying. Since the very beginning of the show, characters started crossing through each other's stories. Part of our desire [in season 6] is to show that there's still this kind of weave, that these characters still would have impacted each other's lives even without the event of crashing on the Island. Obviously, the big question of the season is going to be: How do these [two timelines] reconcile? However, for the fans who have not watched the show closely, that's an intact narrative. You can just watch the flash sideways — they stand alone all by themselves. For the fans who are more deeply embedded in the show, you can watch those flash sideways, compare them to what transpired in the flashbacks and go, "Oh, that's an interesting difference."

LINDELOF: Right out of the gate, in the first five minutes of the premiere, you get hit over the head with two things that you're not expecting. The first is that Desmond is on the plane. The second thing that we do is we drop out of the plane and we go below the water and we see that the Island is submerged. What we're trying to do there is basically say to you, "God bless the survivors of Oceanic 815, because they're so self-centered, they thought the only effect [of detonating the bomb] was going to be that their plane never crashes." But they don't stop to think, "If we do this in 1977, what else is going to affected by this?" So that their entire lives can be changed radically. In fact, it would appear that they've sunken the Island. That's our way of saying, "Keep your eyes peeled for the differences that you're not expecting." Some of these characters were still in Australia, but some weren't. Shannon's not there. Boone actually says that he tried to get her back. There are all sorts of other people that we don't see. Where's Libby? Where's Ana Lucia? Where's Eko? These are all the things that you're supposed to be thinking about. When our characters posited the "What if?" scenario, they neglected to think about what the other effects of potentially changing time might be and we're embracing those things.



That said, are you saying definitively that detonating Jughead was the event that created this new timeline? Or is that a mystery which the season 6 story will reveal?

LINDELOF:
It's a mystery. A big one.

CUSE: We did have some concern that it might be confusing kind of going into the season. To clear that up a little bit: The archetypes of the characters are the same and that's the most significant thing. Kate is still a fugitive. If you were to look at the Comic-Con video, for instance, that now comes into play. There was a different scenario in that story. She basically blew up an apprentice plumber as opposed to killing her biological father/stepfather. Those kind of differences exist, but who the characters fundamentally are is the same. If it becomes too confusing for you, you can just follow the flash sideways for what they are. It's not as though there's narrative that hangs on the fact that you need to know that this event was different in that world, in the flashback world versus the sideways world. That's not critical for being able to process the narrative this season.

Is there a relationship between Island reality and sideways reality? Will they run parallel for the remainder of the season? Will they fuse together? Might one fade away?

LINDELOF: For us, the big risk that we're taking in the final season of the show is basically this very question. [Lindelof then explains the show has replaced the trademark "whoosh!" sound effect marking the segue between Island present story and flashbacks or flash-forwards, thus calling conspicuous attention to the relationship between the Island world and the Sideways world.] This is the critical mystery of the season, which is, "What is the relationship between these two shows?" And we don't use the phrase "alternate reality," because to call one of them an "alternate reality" is to infer that one of them isn't real, or one of them is real and the other is the alternate to being real.

CUSE: But the questions you're asking are exactly the right questions. What are we to make of the fact that they're showing us two different timelines? Are they going to resolve? Are they going to connect? Are they going to co-exist in parallel fashion? Are they going to cross? Do they intersect? Does one prove to be viable and the other one not? I think those are all the kind of speculations that are the right speculations to be having at this point in the season.

LINDELOF: But it is going to require patience. We've taught the audience how to be patient thus far, so while they're getting a lot of mythological answers on the island early in the season, this idea of what is the relationship between the two [worlds] is a little bit more of a slow burn.

Did Jughead really sink the Island? And is it possible that the Sideways characters are now caught in a time loop in which they might have to go back in time and fulfill the obligation to continuity by detonating the bomb?

LINDELOF: These questions will be dealt with on the show. Should you infer that the detonation of Jughead is what sunk the island? Who knows? But there's the Foot. What do you get when you see that shot? It looks like New Otherton got built. These little clues [might help you] extrapolate when the Island may have sunk. Start to think about it. A couple of episodes down the road, some of the characters might even discuss it. We will say this: season 6 is not about time travel. It's about the implications, the aftermath, and the causality of trying to change the past. But the idea of continuing to do paradoxical storytelling is not what we're interested in this year.
(emphases mine)

So either the flash-sideways weren't supposed to be some kind of after-life originally (my theory, as explained above), or the showrunners blatantly lied in that interview. Pick one.
 
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Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
Considering that Westworld has answered its big mysteries in the first season, I think we're good. Creators look to Lost now as what not to do.

Funny
A big part of the Lost team (directors, producers...) follow JJA and Jonathan Nolan on Person of Interest...then on Westworld.
And btw, Nolan said he didn't know if WW was going to be a success since the show was prepared to replace Game of Thrones. So he and his wife create a scenario that could end at season 1 if Westworld was cancelled.

Now they are all like "omg guys this is amazing, season 1 is just the top of the iceberg, we planned at least 5 seasons with a HUUUGE story" and even cast said recently on season 2 "it's going to blow your mind how big the WW "world" is! "

So now they are on the long phase, not the short one.
 
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skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,180
i did an LTTP binge on the series not too long ago. considering it's pre-prestige tv and network show i was kind of blown away. yeah, contrivances galore past the 3rd season or so but IMO the premise is so vague a lot of stuff didn't really matter though i can see why somebody in the mid 2000s watching the show week by week would get very aggravated

i thought the ending was quite touching. the "origin story" episode that preceded it was laughable though, i was bracing for the worst
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,937
A big part of the Lost team (directors, producers...) follow JJA and Jonathan Nolan on Person of Interest...then on Westworld.
Not sure what that kind of thing is supposed to mean for me, as I've always blamed the showrunners (that is to say, Lindelof and Cuse, although Abrams and his infamous "mystery box" get a mention here and there) specifically.
 

Bob White

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,931
Part 5 of the review has a bunch of them. The time travel contradiction around 12:00 is a good example
https://youtu.be/u6yUi1KhFe4?t=11m44s

Edit: Another example is where they lied and threw an actress under the bus about a mistake in the show, and only later conceded they lied when she called them out @ 41:26
https://youtu.be/u6yUi1KhFe4?t=41m26s

Wow. I've always said that the writers were lying ass hacks but this...this is just pathetic. "Our bad writing was totally that actor's fault!"
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
Funny
A big part of the Lost team (directors, producers...) follow JJA and Jonathan Nolan on Person of Interest...then on Westworld.
And btw, Nolan said he didn't know if WW was going to be a success since the show was prepared to replace Game of Thrones. So he and his wife create a scenario that could end at season 1 if Westworld was cancelled.

Now they are all like "omg guys this is amazing, season 1 is just the top of the iceberg, we planned at least 5 seasons with a HUUUGE story" and even cast said recently on season 2 "it's going to blow your mind how big the WW "world" is! "

So now they are on the long phase, not the short one.

They may have planned it that way as a contingency, but Nolan also said that he and his wife have a general sense in where things would go. In any case, it doesn't change the fact that season 1 brought up huge questions and resolved them within the season in a satisfactory way that made rewatching the series more enjoyable. The same cannot be said of LOST.

A long phase is alright as long as it ends in a satisfying way. Westworld built up a lot of good will with the first season. Most of us thought that the Arnold stuff wouldn't get resolved for seasons, so it was surprising that it got tied up nicely in the first. I don't want them to squander that good will, but I will give them a chance. I can't do that with Cuse and Lindelof. They strung us along the entire series promising us answers and then in the last season, they say the answers don't matter or the answers they do give us aren't satisfying at all. Reetea asks himself if there is any mystery set up in the first season that was resolved in/by the sixth in satisfying way and he can't think of one. I can't either. There was so much set up and no payoff.

Funny
A big part of the Lost team (directors, producers...) follow JJA and Jonathan Nolan on Person of Interest...then on Westworld.

Not sure what that kind of thing is supposed to mean for me, as I've always blamed the showrunners (that is to say, Lindelof and Cuse, although Abrams and his infamous "mystery box" get a mention here and there) specifically.

Exactly. We're not pinning this on the individual staff writers. We're pinning this on the show runners because they are responsible for the entire thing. Cuse and Lindelof are not writing for Westworld. Abrams is an EP and gives notes and stuff, but he isn't responsible for the entire show either.

Also, like Reetea said, it's not just about the mysteries and the answers although that's a huge part of it because the show itself pushes the mysteries hard. It's also the characters. Kate is defined by her relationships to two male leads. Even Evangeline Lily wanted Kate to grow as a character and leave Jack's shadow. Jack's sudden shift from wanting to save everybody and being a skeptic to being a firm believer in destiny (and thus the show loses a crucial counterbalance) because some crazy guy he didn't like seemingly committed suicide. Sun and Jin just said fuck their daughter and decided to drown together. It's also how the ending makes half of the last season worthless and a literal waste of time. It's about all of the contrivances. It's about how the series tells us how evil big bad of the series is (he's the ultimate evil!) but he isn't all that bad especially compared to his supposedly "good" counterpart. It's a lot of shit.
 

Garmonbozia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
591
I watched all of it, and I agree with most of his points (even if he sometimes linger on an issue for way too long). The presence of the flash-sideways on S6 really was completely pointless. There's no reason to do any character development if by the end you reveal that the entire point of the existence of that reality was for them to remember what happened on the island. The narrative objective of the flash-sideways could be easily accomplished if they were present only in the last episode, which reveals that they only show up through the entire season just to misdirect the viewers (especially when it shows the island sunk underwater).

I don't think the ending "ruined" the entire series, but S6 and to a lesser degree, S5 really brought down a show that could reach all-time classic status.

(The Constant is such a great hour of television, holy shit.)
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
I trust Nolan to deliver the goods especially after Person of Interest.
I just started watching that after a few users suggested it in the Westworld thread in Something Awful. I hear things get really good in like season 3 with some philosophical shit. Still only on the first season but I'm liking it so far. But yeah, I have faith in Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy. I love Westworld.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
The real problem is: loving Lost is a bad thing?
Because reading this topic it's feel like i'm a bad person
 
OP
OP
Arta

Arta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,445
If Cuse and Lindelof make Westworld, that Arnold stuff would have been dragged out for seasons, with a new member of the board claiming they have answers, nodding knowingly, while knowing nothing.

If they did Person Of Interest the ways the numbers are obtained would have never been pinned down, with some shrouded boogie man in a black hat in the shadows forever promising the truth and only delivering empty sermons on the duality of man.

If they wrote Horizon Zero Dawn we'd never know what Zero Dawn is, until the closing scene of the last game when a Watcher looks at the camera, sqwaks something in unintelligable in machine language, cutting to Aloy who then says "I understand everything, it means..." Cut to credits.
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
The real problem is: loving Lost is a bad thing?
Because reading this topic it's feel like i'm a bad person

Nah, all this hatred comes out of a place of love out of everything the series done right. Its high points are still among the best television ever done, but, you know, it ends horribly and the producers are pathological serial liars who kept stoking fan hype only to decide everyone who believed them is stupid because the answers they repeated over and over was coming suddenly doesn't matter just when they were supposed to deliver.

There is a lot to love on lost, but I can't really pretend there isn't so much to hate either.
 

SArcher

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,669
Man, I didn't remember the writing being this awful. Anyone remember that brief period when Heroes and Lost were in a sort of a competition but Heroes collapsed under its own weight only after a season and people hailed Lost as being superior. But in reality the Lost writers were just better at hiding their incompetence.
 

Emmz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
404
After watching this whole series of reviews (and having not watched Lost in years), I can appreciate that there's a lot of terrible plot errors and nonsensical things that happen. In the moments that I watched Lost at the time, it was more interesting and entertaining than anything I had ever watched. This isn't the Star Wars prequels where I was kinda "eh" about them at the time, and then Plinkett ruined them. I still enjoyed it immensely at the time, as flawed as it was. These reviews don't make me angry or defensive, he's totally right. But in the (slightly misquoted) words of Jim Jefferies, "fuck off, I like Lost".
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
If Cuse and Lindelof make Westworld, that Arnold stuff would have been dragged out for seasons, with a new member of the board claiming they have answers, nodding knowingly, while knowing nothing.

HBO.
Cable drama, not on a public channel with a 20+ episode each season.
That's why Lindelof and Cuse asked ABC for 2 more seasons (24 ep each) after season 3 and then the end.
ABC agreed but wanted 3 seasons with 16 episodes each because two reasons:
*Money during 3 years
*ABC saw that 13 episodes/season vibe from cable tv show and thought it would be great.
Season 4 had the writers strikes so with season 5 and 6, they add one (even two in season 6) more episode each.

Lindelof was very good with Leftovers. Cuse was nice with Bates Motel... Remember that's not the same logic. ABC was on a goldmine and the two showrunners were asking to stop this...

If you take the first season major plot in 10 episodes you would love it. Idem for season 2-3...
Btw i remember correctlly (as a lost fan) that each weeks Cuse and Lindelof answers some questions.
And during that time, they said they needed support from fans because ABC didn't wanted LOST to end.
Idem for Nikki and Paulo. They killed them because people didn't like them.
Not because they didn't knew what to do with them, Paulo was supposed to have a Faraday plot part and Nikki the Charlotte one...
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,022
My GOD, I finally finished watching the entire review which is EXTREMELY well done and I just have to applaud him, especially for the painstaking research of uncovering all of the producer's lies. Like, I've always maintained that the ending was horrible and the show basically went up its ass post-S2/3. But, he just systematically deconstructs all of the mega problems that result in the horrendous ending that we eventually received. But, really, the unbelievable takeaway is how big of liars and egotists Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse are. Like, it's an amazing example of someone making this little lie, that at the time, if they just told the truth wouldn't be so bad. But, then because they refused to backtrack this lie, they had to keep coming up with new lies and stories to cover up the initial little lie to the point that the cover up lies became these massive lies. All of this until you get to the very end of the show, when suddenly, "everything" was allegedly planned out, where simple mistakes in production that are just a consequence of TV have to be covered up with gigantic lies, some of which they throw whole people under the bus, just because they can't admit the simple truth, LOST had no real plan to begin with they were making things up as they went along like every other show in existence.

However, two things in his review truly shocked me as I remembered the show beyond the lies of the producers. The first is his point about the submerged island sequence at the start of the flash sideways timeline. When he showed that I literally had to pause the video because I immediately understood the gravity of what he was showing me. In effect, once you understand what the flash sideways are, the submerged island scene makes no sense. Instead, it only exists to fuck with the audience, to lie to them that this isn't the afterlife but something else. This, of course, leads me to believe either one of two things either: A) Even at the very last season of the show they had no idea how it was going to end or what the flash sideways meant, hence the submerged island scene; OR B) They engineered this submerged island scene with full knowledge of what the flash sideways were in an attempt to deceive the audience. And, I honestly don't know which to believe. I actually want to believe version A because it's the only way the scenes we witness in the flash sideways make any sense. Otherwise, the producers spent time and money creating a scene that literally SHOULD NOT EXIST. And, continued into the flash sideways plots and drama which have no weight to them because they don't matter at all. It's mind boggling.

But, the second thing I grinned at when watching the finale of his review is that we both thought of the same JLU story "For the Man Who Has Everything," when thinking back on Jack's story in the flash sideways. When initially being reminded of the flash sideways and Jack's son I immediately thought of this episode/comic run. And so, when he later brought it up I just smiled because it showed how in-sync we were in thought. For Superman, that false reality was torture, the cruelest type of torture you could ever inflict on someone and he was justifiably pissed beyond reason when he learned the truth. He was shown and led to believe in a reality where everything he had ever wanted came true, including have his own son, only to learn that it was all fake and to be ripped back into reality. Meanwhile, LOST Jack spends much of the last season trying to reconcile with his son, who we later learn is fake, and when Jack learns this truth he just smiles and laughs with everyone at the church. What. The. FUCK.

LOST was a great character show that did things nobody had seen things in television before, but by S3 (and especially S4) they had taken those characters as far as they could go. We had learned everything we could about them, there was nothing new for us to learn or for them to do. And, as a result, the main plot and mysteries were given greater weight, except that the producers had no idea how to write a mystery show. They had no answers. It's as he said, LOST is a mystery show with no payoff. You can't watch it from the start and go, "ohhhh, this all makes sense now," as all the pieces fall in place. Rather, LOST is purely about the emotions of these characters and the arcs they went through, but that show ended with S4.

EDIT:

Sorry for the doublepost
but i strongly advice you to watch this interview of Lindelof , especially at 3min40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5chCMRsEVo&

Like, Holy fuck, the lies he's still pushing well after the show has ended. "I wasn't going to pull a Matrix Architect..." BUT YOU FUCKING DID! It's like he has to convince himself it was all planned and he didn't dick everyone a lie, the greatest lie may be the lie he tells himself.

EDIT EDIT:

Hey. Hey, you guys. Hey. Hey, listen.

So.

If your critique is 10 hours long? Your critique is probably bad. NO ONE will ever be able to remember what you said after 3 1/2 hours. None of the points and observations you make 6 hours in are going to matter 3 hours later. Because you'll have forgotten them. Because I will DEFINITELY have forgotten them. This is the worst trend on Youtube for me.

That is where you are wrong, you really should just watch the darn reviews, they don't even start off long. The first one is like 20 minutes. LOST produced hundreds of episodes comprising of HUNDREDS of hours of TV, you can't just summarize why the ending was bad in a short video. He meticulously sets up and explains why the show was so good, how it went off the rails, the behind the scenes bullshitting going on, and the nonsense of the ending and how it failed to wrap up the series. This is honestly one of the best reviews I've ever seen due to how meticulous the research is. It's right up there with the Plinkett Star Wars reviews, except I'd say even better given the source material from the producers he's able to work with concerning the BTS development of the show.

It's a wonderful analysis of the entire series that breaks down why it was received so poorly at the end beyond, "it didn't answer any questions."
 
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Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
Any question?
I mean ask me something beside Walt (because i will only answer "he's the new Jacob" lol) , challenge me.

And no it's not like the architect.
The architect is a character that gave a monolithic answer..it was bad.
Lost was more elusive. They said "the island is real but it's protecting the afterlife. That's why there is this island , and the "afterlife" is whatever you want it to be"

I don't want Lost to show me Egyptians building the Taouret statue. I don't care.
Lost is about characters before mythology that's why lost was at his best when they combine both (remember when Locke's Dad was on the island? Brillant!)

BUT i can understand frustation and didn't liking it.
I won't understand those saying "THEY WERE LIAR! I WANT TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT EGYPTIANS!"
I mean...
I don't care about egyptiens or jacob past or whatever. In fact that Jacob/Monster centric episode was awful...like the architect.
BUT Desmond episode, who showed the island energy powers through space and time, was awesome. Because they used a known character for that.
Did you rather like an appearance of Jacob saying "ok, hurley you can see the dead because we are on the top of an energy which is afterlife. The whispers are souls that didn't forgave themselves for what they did prior to the island. The monster is a man using purgatory power to judge humanity because he thinks humans are bad. That's why he scanned you to see your past and manipulate you by showing vision or taking control of dead people.
Miles can communicate through the afterlife because he was born on the island and had power since.
By the way, Vincent is a gold retriever... etc... etc..."

You wanted that?
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
Any question?
I mean ask me something beside Walt (because i will only answer "he's the new Jacob" lol) , challenge me.

And no it's not like the architect.
The architect is a character that gave a monolithic answer..it was bad.
Lost was more elusive. They said "the island is real but it's protecting the afterlife. That's why there is this island , and the "afterlife" is whatever you want it to be"

I don't want Lost to show me Egyptians building the Taouret statue. I don't care.
Lost is about characters before mythology that's why lost was at his best when they combine both (remember when Locke's Dad was on the island? Brillant!)

BUT i can understand frustation and didn't liking it.
I won't understand those saying "THEY WERE LIAR! I WANT TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT EGYPTIANS!"
I mean...
I don't care about egyptiens or jacob past or whatever. In fact that Jacob/Monster centric episode was awful...like the architect.
BUT Desmond episode, who showed the island energy powers through space and time, was awesome. Because they used a known character for that.
Did you rather like an appearance of Jacob saying "ok, hurley you can see the dead because we are on the top of an energy which is afterlife. The whispers are souls that didn't forgave themselves for what they did prior to the island. The monster is a man using purgatory power to judge humanity because he thinks humans are bad. That's why he scanned you to see your past and manipulate you by showing vision or taking control of dead people.
Miles can communicate through the afterlife because he was born on the island and had power since.
By the way, Vincent is a gold retriever... etc... etc..."


You wanted that?

But they basically did that specifically with the whispers. Michael's ghost just told Hurley that the whispers were ghosts and the review points out how nonsensical that was because throghout the first seasons, the whispers were obviously something that the Others would do to freak people out. Whispers were always a signal that the Others were near; them being ghosts was basically a retcon.

See? This kind of thing. It's not that there weren't answers period, tho on a lot of things there weren't, it's that the ones we were, indeed, given, explained nothing or outright contradicted stuff.
They basically messed everything up on the "answers" front.
A lot of stuff was just ignored. What wasn't is basically nonsense, magic or "Jacob is borderline omnipotent, so he is the ultimate Deus Ex Machina who spent decades on a Rube Goldberg megaplot to get sad people into this specific flight so most of them can be violently murdered, but then a few of them can be part of a contest to take care of a magical pool of energy which nobody can find anyway because it is magic and it hides itself from everyone who is not Jacob himself". And what doesn't fall into these three categories is just not important or interesting.

Personally, tho he talks a lot about Dharma on the videos about season 2 and 3, he doesn't even touch on how fucking boring Dharma is in the end.
When you start with Dharma on season 2, they look like these mad hippie scientists doing insane crazy stuff and like a lot of things on this show, gets this "ooohh, where are they going with this?"
The answer nowhere. They are.... drumrolls... just hippie scientists doing crazy experiments. And that's it. Because they want to experiment. And they experiment because science.

Urgh. So frustrating.
 
Oct 25, 2017
844
Regardless of how you feel about the show, I think we can agree that the Rebecca Mader comment made on the LOST podcast is some terrible, scummy shit.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
But they basically did that specifically with the whispers. Michael's ghost just told Hurley that the whispers were ghosts and the review points out how nonsensical that was because throghout the first seasons, the whispers were obviously something that the Others would do to freak people out. Whispers were always a signal that the Others were near; them being ghosts was basically a retcon..

That's impossible, Sawyer hear during whispers the voice of the man he killed in Australia in season 1 episode.
The character who said "whispers = others" is Rousseau. And she was wrong
In fact you can translate many whispers in the show
When Shannon died, whispers are like people making comment about what we are seeing for example. In a ghostly way.

And if Dharma is on the island that's because Jacob wanted it.
Remember that Dharma = Alvar Hanso , great son of Magnus Hanso who command the ship where Richard was a slave.
Richard seeing probable met Alvar and with Jacob, thought that Science can help against that smocke monster issue.
 
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OP
Arta

Arta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,445
However, two things in his review truly shocked me as I remembered the show beyond the lies of the producers. The first is his point about the submerged island sequence at the start of the flash sideways timeline. When he showed that I literally had to pause the video because I immediately understood the gravity of what he was showing me. In effect, once you understand what the flash sideways are, the submerged island scene makes no sense. Instead, it only exists to fuck with the audience, to lie to them that this isn't the afterlife but something else. This, of course, leads me to believe either one of two things either: A) Even at the very last season of the show they had no idea how it was going to end or what the flash sideways meant, hence the submerged island scene; OR B) They engineered this submerged island scene with full knowledge of what the flash sideways were in an attempt to deceive the audience. And, I honestly don't know which to believe. I actually want to believe version A because it's the only way the scenes we witness in the flash sideways make any sense. Otherwise, the producers spent time and money creating a scene that literally SHOULD NOT EXIST. And, continued into the flash sideways plots and drama which have no weight to them because they don't matter at all. It's mind boggling.
Even more shocking (to me) is once you realize that the sunken island is a giant red herring, the hydrogen bomb detonation is even more boggling because, since it DIDNT cause an alternate timeline, it does nothing but transport the Losties into the future. That's nonsense!

Like, the more you think about it, plot points turn from ridiculous to asinine.

Even embracing the term "flash-sideways" is deceiving cause it keeps you primed into thinking the other reality as some form of alternate reality when it's in fact a giant flash forwards. I remember arguing with Lostpedia fanboys over this point 9 years ago, but now I can't blame them that much for being confused because of the manipulative way the scenes were constructed.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
Even more shocking (to me) is once you realize that the sunken island is a giant red herring, the hydrogen bomb detonation is even more boggling because, since it DIDNT cause an alternate timeline, it does nothing but transport the Losties into the future. That's nonsense!

Like, the more you think about it, plot points turn from ridiculous to asinine.

Even embracing the term "flash-sideways" is deceiving cause it keeps you primed into thinking the other reality as some form of alternate reality when it's in fact a giant flash forwards. I remember arguing with Lostpedia fanboys over this point 9 years ago, but now I can't blame them that much for being confused because of the manipulative way the scenes were constructed.

i WAS thinking about afterlife at episode 3 of season 6 because for me it was too obvious this alternate reality was too perfect for the characters...to be real ^^
 

gforguava

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,705
Just finished this, really well done.

I really loved his thoughts on the Church scene and just why certain people were there and others weren't. The scene now makes perfect sense(why Michael and Walt aren't there, why Sayid is with Shannon), and it is the most cynical of reasons. I hated it when I first saw it and that hasn't changed as time has gone on but man do I look at it even worse now.

I generally used to think of the last season of LOST as just the creators' losing control of the train and just throwing everything at the wall but now I see it in a very different light. The image I see is of people feeding their egos more than anything and that need to self-aggrandize came about by building the mystery to show their own comparative genius at being the masterminds of it, all at the expense of the show itself. And when the time came to end it they didn't have any good ideas, let alone enough of them to throw at said proverbial wall.

And it is amazing that even at the end with the 'beach wreckage bumper footage' being thoughtlessly placed over the credits, Carlton and Cuse still kept lying.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
Just finished this, really well done.

I really loved his thoughts on the Church scene and just why certain people were there and others weren't. The scene now makes perfect sense(why Michael and Walt aren't there, why Sayid is with Shannon), and it is the most cynical of reasons. I hated it when I first saw it and that hasn't changed as time has gone on but man do I look at it even worse now.

I generally used to think of the last season of LOST as just the creators' losing control of the train and just throwing everything at the wall but now I see it in a very different light. The image I see is of people feeding their egos more than anything and that need to self-aggrandize came about by building the mystery to show their own comparative genius at being the masterminds of it, all at the expense of the show itself. And when the time came to end it they didn't have any good ideas, let alone enough of them to throw at said proverbial wall.

And it is amazing that even at the end with the 'beach wreckage bumper footage' being thoughtlessly placed over the credits, Carlton and Cuse still kept lying.

What the fuck?
The ending with the wreckage was made by ABC, not by the writers who discover that like us i mean they said it the morning after! Are you seriously STILL thinking they were dead the whole time??? Jesus...
If this video is about searching about why there is no Eko or somebody in the church it's just because the actors wasn't available that time and that's it!
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,937
Regardless of how you feel about the show, I think we can agree that the Rebecca Mader comment made on the LOST podcast is some terrible, scummy shit.
You'd think so, but when I talked about that over at the old site, a Lost fan went "hey, maybe she's the liar!"...


The character who said "whispers = others" is Rousseau.
There would also be that:
ROUSSEAU: Please, don't take my Alex!
BEN: Do you want your baby to live?
ROUSSEAU: Why are you taking her?!
[Rousseau attempts to get up, but Ben fires a warning shot. Alex wailing.]
BEN: Be grateful you're still alive. Now you listen to me. If you try to follow me or if you ever come looking for me, I'll kill you. And if you want your child to live, every time you hear whispers, you run the other way.
Does it look like Ben is talking about ghosts, there?

But yeah, like you said, there were also some instances early on where the whispers couldn't simply be the Others. Yet another instance of the writers showing they're unable (or unwilling) to commit to an idea.

Are you seriously STILL thinking they were dead the whole time???
The poster you're replying to didn't say nor imply anything of the sort, but you sure seem to love that particular strawman...
 
OP
OP
Arta

Arta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,445
What the fuck?
The ending with the wreckage was made by ABC, not by the writers who discover that like us i mean they said it the morning after! Are you seriously STILL thinking they were dead the whole time??? Jesus...
If this video is about searching about why there is no Eko or somebody in the church it's just because the actors wasn't available that time and that's it!
No, that's all addressed in this video (specifically the last one.

You really should watch the whole thing.
 

gforguava

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,705
What the fuck?
The ending with the wreckage was made by ABC, not by the writers who discover that like us i mean they said it the morning after!
If this video is about searching about why there is no Eko or somebody in the church it's just because the actors wasn't available that time and that's it!
You literally don't know what you are talking about.

Lindelof in 2012:
"...a large part of it came from ABC's decision to run footage of plane wreckage over the end credits of the finale and we publicly got out and said 'Oh my god, that was not our idea.' "
Cuse in 2014:
"At the end of the series finale, [an ABC exec] thought it would be a good to have a buffer between when you have the end of the show and when they cut to say, a Clorox commercial. We didn't have a lot of extra footage lying around, but we had footage of the plane wreckage on the the beach. We though, let's put those shots at the end of the show and it will be a little buffer and lull."

What should've been a simple, "Eh, we made a little mistake." had to be spun for no reason. Like those two did time and time and time and time again.

And, no, it was not scheduling that kept certain people out of the church scene.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
The creators of the show comparing its mysteries to "the great mysteries of life" or religious questions or like asking God something, is like really really baffling. Like can you get any more pretentious than that? I usually hate using that word, but that's a textbook example right there. As if Lost's mysteries are just inherently unknowable and unanswerable
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,937
Speaking of the showrunners being asshats, you guys might want to listen to Lindelof in that podcast...

31:18:
[...] and certainly with Lost, there was... Let's just call it what it is. This is the clickbait right here, on Twitter, which is, #LindelofAdmits, but it's sort of, like... There was constant politicking required on Carlton and my behalf to basically say, like, "answers are coming! answers are coming! answers are coming!", independent of whether they were! We had to be saying that even before there was an end date of the show, just because there was this thing happening in the media culture where it was being demanded of us, and it simply wasn't viable for us to just remain silent. Like, it wasn't. Like, because our silence would have made people nervous.
See? The poor guys had to make empty promises, or it would have made people nervous.

42:56:
Almost out of the gate, like, I think, as early as the pilot, the primary question being presented by both the media and fans alike was "are you making it up as you go along?". And this was said with arms akimbo. And so, the answer had to be "no". At all times. Because you couldn't say, like, "guys, let's just be pragmatic about this... I met J.J. the last week of January, it is now May, in that 13 week interval, we shot and edited a 2-hour movie, and... no, we did not have the opportunity to sit down and basically break out the entire series of Lost". The answer was "of course we're not making it up as we go along! we completely and totally have a plan." I think, born of that lie, that forced lie... You know, it was, like, tell the people what they want to hear. Like, "guess what, America? you are safe." That is a lie we need to hear. And when it gets shattered, you get mad at the people who told it to you, but you wanted them to tell you.
In fact, they lied for your own good, you dumb viewers!
 
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hurlex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,143
Even more shocking (to me) is once you realize that the sunken island is a giant red herring, the hydrogen bomb detonation is even more boggling because, since it DIDNT cause an alternate timeline, it does nothing but transport the Losties into the future. That's nonsense!

Like, the more you think about it, plot points turn from ridiculous to asinine.

Even embracing the term "flash-sideways" is deceiving cause it keeps you primed into thinking the other reality as some form of alternate reality when it's in fact a giant flash forwards. I remember arguing with Lostpedia fanboys over this point 9 years ago, but now I can't blame them that much for being confused because of the manipulative way the scenes were constructed.

To be fair, the hydrogen bomb going off was 'The Incident,' which was pretty important to Lost lore for several reasons. It caused the building of the hatch and necessitated the button, which also in turned cause the crash of the flight. Also I remember the producers implying that the Incident causing the issues with fertility on the island (or was it breaking of the statue?).
 
Oct 31, 2017
195
Can that one poster please stop posting Game of Thrones Season 7 spoilers? It's still very recent and this thread has nothing to do with Game of Thrones.

One comment on the plane wreckage footage after the finale ended: I remember it being reported that Darlton were livid with that, as it made viewers confused as to the characters being dead the whole time. However, it makes perfect sense that they actually inserted that, since they knew it would be talked about and debated. Which is pretty scummy, should have just owned up to it, but they never really did that throughout the show's history. I haven't gotten that far in the video series yet, so I'm sure it will be addressed.
 

AndreGX

GameXplain
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,815
San Francisco
Speaking of the showrunners being asshats, you guys might want to listen to Lindelof in that podcast...

31:18:

See? The poor guys had to make empty promises, or it would have made people nervous.

42:56:

In fact, they lied for your own good, you dumb viewers!

YkNs2EV.gif
 

Piston

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,170
I watched the first two parts and had to stop. I have mostly good memories of Lost and it was kind of making me regret them. I'm going to keep them as good memories.
 
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OP
Arta

Arta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,445
I watched the first two parts and had to stop. I have mostly good memories of Lost and it was kind of making me regret them. I'm going to keep them as good memories.
Well, at least that's a testament to how good the show was in its prime. Cause even knowing how the show went to crap in the end, I recently watched the entire season and still smile at certain episodes.

The fact that the ending is so terrible doesn't negate the fact that the show has some of the most memorable and well written episodes of all time. I just want to be a balanced fan rather than a blind one.
 

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,921
The creators of the show comparing its mysteries to "the great mysteries of life" or religious questions or like asking God something, is like really really baffling. Like can you get any more pretentious than that? I usually hate using that word, but that's a textbook example right there. As if Lost's mysteries are just inherently unknowable and unanswerable

To be 100% fair every time they use that analogy it's not meant in that everything they do is that deep. It's meant to be used in the sense that there is always a setup question that could be asked. Like if you explain the origin of the universe you could ask what is before that. Or if you ask what is god. You could ask who created god.

They were using it to say some questions you ask about Lost would be a never ending loop of asking what created that. I'm not saying that is the perfect answer for them to give for some of the questions aimed at them but I believe the video was a little unfair in always treating it that they were literally saying Lost was as deep as the bible. Sometimes they were basically just saying chicken or egg.
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
That's impossible, Sawyer hear during whispers the voice of the man he killed in Australia in season 1 episode.
The character who said "whispers = others" is Rousseau. And she was wrong
In fact you can translate many whispers in the show
When Shannon died, whispers are like people making comment about what we are seeing for example. In a ghostly way.

And if Dharma is on the island that's because Jacob wanted it.
Remember that Dharma = Alvar Hanso , great son of Magnus Hanso who command the ship where Richard was a slave.
Richard seeing probable met Alvar and with Jacob, thought that Science can help against that smocke monster issue.

But "Jacob wanted" is the biggest non-answer to everything in the show.
The moment they decided to introduce basically God as a character, it's over as far as a mystery show goes. And then you get forced coincidences as explanation as a bonus and urgh, it's just so lazy.
-
Speaking of the showrunners being asshats, you guys might want to listen to Lindelof in that podcast...

31:18:

See? The poor guys had to make empty promises, or it would have made people nervous.

42:56:

In fact, they lied for your own good, you dumb viewers!

You know what would have been really pragmatic? If they had decided on a simple enough mythology to guide them.
You don't need the specific episodes in advance, but you can decide on a basic framework, like, I don't know, Fringe: Alternate Dimensions are a thing, they exist in the same space, but "vibrate" differently, so by pseudo-science, we can do weird shit. So it's now this one simple thing and you don't need to worry about the meaning of the universe.

One problem with Lost is that instead of cleaning house with the mysteries they already had, they kept creating one thing on top of another basically leaving the last thing behind either unexplained or undeveloped.
Your show is about facts vs faith in a weird island, right? So, here is how I fanfic'ed the whole thing in my head after S3, ignoring the "we need to go back" cliffhanger:

Ignore Windmore, just eliminate him completely.
Something on the island has mind-altering properties, like psychedelic vegetations or something.
So now, you can pretty much explain almost every weird thing right out of the bat: the island itself is making people crazy?
Or at least that's what Dharma wants you to believe. Why are they conducting weird psychological experiments on top of psychological experiments about people doing psychological experiments? Because they are interested in mind-expansion hippie stuff on the 60s, which later turned into a pharmaceutical arms race as the world moved on to antidepressants and such.

But then there is these people who lived their entire lives on the island, and they kind of learned how to weaponize these mind-altering stuff because what they believe is that Jacob wants them to protect the island. So they are at war with Dharma, who wants to use the island as source of profit or maybe something more evil like actual mind-control.

So here is your "faith" vs "fact" show: Jack has to live paranoid and constantly doubt himself because he knows his mind is messed up because the entire island is basically a psychotropic drug, but Locke is a believer that everything is real. So you pass that debate on to your viewers, it's all crazy or it's all real? The plane went down because a electromagnetic force it down after some faithless scientist decided not to push a button or is he insane like everyone else and the plane just went down?
You can even keep it ambiguous right to the end, never settle on one definite answer and you have your basic conflicts. Jack vs Locke. Dharma (who would take the place of Windmore as the money-hungry mercenaries seeking the island) vs The Others (who are fighting the evil corporation while being a weird "Cult of Jacob" crazies who kidnap children). People who want to survive and leave vs people who want, for science or faith, find more about the island.

I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of holes on it, but it's "pragmatic". You just created two simple possible answers and they directly conflict with each other and in a way that we are used to as a culture.
You keep every mystical religious aspect of the show you want, because that fuels the debate. The more Jack is led to believe his father is actually giving him directions and answers, the more he reflects on how the island gave meaning to his empty life, the more he is "vulnerable" to just believe that God Jacob chose him to be a Protector of the Island. And the more "sniffing these plants are making you believe shit" answer makes actual sense, the more Locke is vulnerable to just believe he is a loser, now on drugs.
-
This is now my headcanon. I saved the show!
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
i m still thinking the purpose of this topic is to convince people that Lost is a very bad tv show, and that if you still love it today, then you are out of the artistic space , to even talk about tv show.
This is how i feel, listening all of this.
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,937
i m still thinking the purpose of this topic is to convince people that Lost is a very bad tv show, and that if you still love it today, then you are out of the artistic space , to even talk about tv show.
This is how i feel, listening all of this.
... Is this really your first exposure to criticism?
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
... Is this really your first exposure to criticism?

No, but there is a difference between backlash and criticism.
For instance, i hate Lost season 2 and the "temple part" of season 6 so i'm not a fanboy.
But i never saw something like that during the GoT S7 Topic. Here there is some kind of "hate".
 

Meia

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,015
i m still thinking the purpose of this topic is to convince people that Lost is a very bad tv show, and that if you still love it today, then you are out of the artistic space , to even talk about tv show.
This is how i feel, listening all of this.

It truly is fascinating that some people who are fans of something can feel personally insulted when it's critiqued.


The show maker's didn't have an overall plot they knew years in advance. They often lied about things to make it seem like they did. These are basic facts at this point when there's that much evidence to pile up. It's not wrong to like the show, as early it had some of the strongest characters ever seen in television. It's just sad that at the end of things, each of said characters were kind of dragged through the mud in service of a non-story. That's the reason why people are so passionate against those final seasons.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
i m still thinking the purpose of this topic is to convince people that Lost is a very bad tv show, and that if you still love it today, then you are out of the artistic space , to even talk about tv show.
This is how i feel, listening all of this.
Stop taking this personal.

This isn't backlash. This is criticism. Stop bringing up GoT S7 as if there is some kind of conspiracy going on here. There is nothing untoward here.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
It truly is fascinating that some people who are fans of something can feel personally insulted when it's critiqued.


The show maker's didn't have an overall plot they knew years in advance. They often lied about things to make it seem like they did. These are basic facts at this point when there's that much evidence to pile up. It's not wrong to like the show, as early it had some of the strongest characters ever seen in television. It's just sad that at the end of things, each of said characters were kind of dragged through the mud in service of a non-story. That's the reason why people are so passionate against those final seasons.

Season 3-5 and a good part of season 6 was better than season 1-2 for me.
I have bad taste?
And man...is there a tv show when the writers know EVEYTHING before begin the filmmaking? Beside shows in one season?
Because if you think Benioff and Weiss or Gilligan knew EVERYTHING in advance, you are truly mistaken.
 

Keym

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
9,197
I'd be more impressed with a 10 hours thesis stating why LOST is good instead. I love the show but we all know why the majority despised it in the end.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
I'd be more impressed with a 10 hours thesis stating why LOST is good instead. I love the show but we all know why the majority despised it in the end.

i was impressed by the chracters devlopment. Each episode had a nitpick catchphrase that lost viewers known, as "clues" .
I was impressed by how the scenario is told, it was 80% very good (and i mean VERYYY good), and 20% very bad.
I will not continue.

I think i will get out of this topic now. For me Lost is more about how the story is told than rather what the story was.
Because the "new age" ending with "you need everyone you meet to advance in your life" made sense for me but i can understand why people disliked it and wanted some aliens experimentations, or egyptian stuff or whatever mythology