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mrtl

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
827
Hopefully that future-proof exploit/hack that was announced by several parties gains track, otherwise I don't see how you can easily dump games to play on this. Anyhow, this is a good development, like always. 3DS emulation evolves at a snail pace though, if they open a Patreon specifically for Switch emulation and get some paid developers on board maybe things will progress faster (RPCS3 and Cemu got a damn good boost out of all that money thrown at them).
 

Rolodzeo

Member
Nov 10, 2017
3,476
Spain, EU
I don't see how the legitimate use of emulators is on topic in a thread about the birth of an emulator, but the illegitimate (and arguably far more common) use of that same emulator is somehow off topic. They're both talking about how the emulator will be used. "We can talk about the pros of this emulator, but not the cons."

I'm more inclinated to invest in digital games from a closed ecosystem (eShop) if I know I will be able to play them in the (far) future via emulation.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
And your point 1, if people feel the bad outweighs the good, what's wrong with saying it shouldn't exist?

Because the argument for whether or not emulators should exist has been closed for a long time. Even the courts didn't shut them down. No matter how much someone has a personal vendetta against emulation, there is no solid reason for why they shouldn't exist, other than being upset that someone might be committing a crime, which doesn't stop the millions of other tools that are developed in the world that could "also" be used in an illegal fashion. If there is a legal means behind using it, it has a right to exist, no matter how many bad actors there may be.

Yes, money for violating intellectual properties...

In order to violate IP they would have to be attaching pictures of Mario & Co to every single thing they do.

In order to violate copyright, they would have to be copying code directly from the Switch to use in their emulator.

In order to violate trademarks, they would have to call their product the "Nintendo Switch", and be actively attempting to confuse people into thinking they are an official Nintendo product.

So long as they do none of the 3 above, what they do is perfectly legal, and if they wish to get paid for their work, there isn't anything inherently wrong with it.
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
I'm more inclinated to invest in digital games from a closed ecosystem (eShop) if I know I will be able to play them in the (far) future via emulation.
I'm not sure what you're addressing or refuting in my post, as your post doesn't seem to have much to do with my point, but yeah, that is one of the good things about emulation.
 

william_bell

Member
Oct 31, 2017
77
The interest of preserving the art outweighs concerns about piracy. Yes, Switch is a new console with no signs of going extinct any time soon, but in 20 or 30 years I think we'll be happy that volunteers created something to preserve the ability to play these games.

Meanwhile, my Panzer Dragoon Orta disc is still waiting...
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
Because the argument for whether or not emulators should exist has been closed for a long time. Even the courts didn't shut them down. No matter how much someone has a personal vendetta against emulation, there is no solid reason for why they shouldn't exist, other than being upset that someone might be committing a crime, which doesn't stop the millions of other tools that are developed in the world that could "also" be used in an illegal fashion. If there is a legal means behind using it, it has a right to exist, no matter how many bad actors there may be.
Oh really, who closed it? You? So long as people are still arguing about it, the argument about what should be is still open, as much as it seems to bother you. Something being legal doesn't mean there's no legitimate argument for why it shouldn't exist. Something legal one day can be illegal the next, because people have decided the bad outweighs the good. Cigarettes are legal. Are you suggesting that "because they kill lots of people" is not a legitimate reason someone could think they shouldn't exist? "It's legal" is not some absolute defense against criticism.
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
The interest of preserving the art outweighs concerns about piracy. Yes, Switch is a new console with no signs of going extinct any time soon, but in 20 or 30 years I think we'll be happy that volunteers created something to preserve the ability to play these games.

Meanwhile, my Panzer Dragoon Orta disc is still waiting...
I think a lot of people (myself included) are fine with legacy emulators, but think contemporary emulators are bad. That's why I think these people should wait a few years.
 

Lpchaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
126
Great, hope it progresses smoothly so I can have the best of both worlds in games that don't look too hot on the console itself in a couple years.
That said, I'd never guess the Switch would be close to the 3DS, even though it does also use an ARM chip if my memory doesn't fail me.
 

MagnesG

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
784
Is there any irrefutable evidence that early emulation hurts sales in a significant way?
Are we gonna wait until a foolproof evidence coming out before we stop? Countries like mine had long been experiencing the downfall of gaming business because of piracy. Sure they would be more interested in the console (for so called homebrew purpose). But the blow to the industry was really hard, because people just doesn't care about morals when things are free.

I was one of the prominent game online reseller in multiple online marketplace in my country (even frequently took trip to JP for special orders), and we had a huge community and forums going on to support gaming enthusiast, selling games and consoles with affordable prices, much much better than skyhigh retail price. We had our own black market, but most of us got our deals from legal suppliers, as we really hope going through the right route will thrive the scene itself.

I'm one of the pro Nintendo sellers, and I remember 3DS system being so popular during year 2012. Orders are going wild, so many games were being sold even if most of the games were famous ones like MH, Pokemon etc. It was an honest market through and through. But late next year of 2013, Gateway was produced, sales of the system are booming, but all games just bombed hard. Things got worse when CFW become common in 2015, almost all games were unsold, no transaction whatsoever, no preorders or anything. At the end we just drop the orders from suppliers. The cycle of piracy had turned around, and we knew what was coming, but the situation was really embarrassing. The most sad thing that happened was after the high spike of system sales due to piracy being common (Gateway and NTR being introduced), it was confirmed a short term revenue, system sales growth were pretty much the same before and after (with the short spike exception), even until now. Game sales were lost into oblivion. Piracy become an unspoken term in all of customer's dealings.

At the end gaming is still a niche interest, an expensive hobby, which not much people would be so enticed in harboring it. And people who do would absolutely grab anything that can save their money, with the price of industry's growth. Some people would try so hard to deny the claims, researching unbalanced and unfair data with bizarre terrain selection, but this had become the reality long ago. It may be an obnoxious claim at your country but surely not my country and tons of others. Go check all the traffics in ROM sites and forums, the visits rate are ridiculous. Getting Freeshop to the scene are not helping, as there are more than 100K of unique IPs to the main website monthly, and that was without the numbers from external downloads in multiple sources.

Is this a good thing or people just being hypocrites?
 
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Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
I think a lot of people (myself included) are fine with legacy emulators, but think contemporary emulators are bad. That's why I think these people should wait a few years.
Except no one ever does this. No developer, has ever waited for something to become "legacy" before they started work on an emulator. What defines legacy? When it's no longer being manufactured? Readily available for purchase? If the PS4 is out but the PS3 is still being sold in stores, is the PS3 a legacy system? The PS2 was produced up until 2013, released in 2000. Are you saying developers should've waited 13 years before they STARTED work on an emulator, something that itself can be a multi-year long affair to even achieve a basic level of competency?

PS2 games are being sold digitally and/or remastered. Offering emulation can potentially hamper sales for these re-releases if I can just play them now on my emulator for "free". Does that muddy the water for what is still legacy or not?

There is no amount of arbitrary rules you can come up with to decide which emulators are OK to exist now that makes any consistent sense. That's why it's thread shitting. Rather than discussing the emulator itself, it's constant complaining about the fact that piracy exists. Something that would still exist, even without an emulator. Flash carts, repros, burnt discs, etc.


If you don't mind me asking, what country? The piracy issue always affects areas more where the general spending power of the populace can't match the retail pricing of the games on sale. It drives them to the cheaper (read: free) option because they can't justify the cost.

I don't know if console manufacturers engage in territory based pricing the same way the PC market does (intentionally pricing games lower in territories with generally less disposable income). It's been one of the more effective weapons against piracy in regions known for heavy amounts of it.
 
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PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
Except no one ever does this. No developer, has ever waited for something to become "legacy" before they started work on an emulator. What defines legacy? When it's no longer being manufactured? Readily available for purchase? If the PS4 is out but the PS3 is still being sold in stores, is the PS3 a legacy system? The PS2 was produced up until 2013, released in 2000. Are you saying developers should've waited 13 years before they STARTED work on an emulator, something that itself can be a multi-year long affair to even achieve a basic level of competency?

PS2 games are being sold digitally and/or remastered. Offering emulation can potentially hamper sales for these re-releases if I can just play them now on my emulator for "free". Does that muddy the water for what is still legacy or not?

There is no amount of arbitrary rules you can come up with to decide which emulators are OK to exist now that makes any consistent sense. That's why it's thread shitting. Rather than discussing the emulator itself, it's constant complaining about the fact that piracy exists. Something that would still exist, even without an emulator. Flash carts, repros, burnt discs, etc.
Again, your logic is faulty. "Because ambiguity exists in some instances, there can be no clear instances." Every rule has ambiguity in certain instances that will be resolved somewhat arbitrarily. You're right that PS2 in 2010 is ambiguous. But you know what's not ambiguous? Switch. The topic of this thread. Switch is absolutely not a legacy platform, and an emulator of it during the next couple years would be contemporary. So many of us think it should not happen for a few years.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,716
Paris
Don't be worry at least the Switch has that for it that it's an hardware concept. So emulation wouldn't touch it as bad. You want to play Switch games on Switch, that's the whole point. Hell, you even want to play games you wouldn't have played on something else, just cause of the hardware.
 

Ethifury

Member
Dec 4, 2017
1,802
Jawbreaker we don't know if Nintendo isn't interested in 4K. But based off the Switch design and architecture, I don't see it capable of 4K without costing an extra 2-300 dollars for consumers.
 
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cw_sasuke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,350
Don't be worry at least the Switch has that for it that it's an hardware concept. So emulation wouldn't touch it as bad. You want to play Switch games on Switch, that's the whole point. Hell, you even want to play games you wouldn't have played on something else, just cause of the hardware.
You arent wrong...but the system isnt even a year old - whatever could result in mass piracy will always be a bad look for the plattform this early. Especially if you more or less start at zero when it comes to 3rdParty commitment.

Its different once a system is established as a viable system - asking for funds before most people even own or purchased the system feels a bit off.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,716
Paris
You arent wrong...but the system isnt even a year old - whatever could result in mass piracy will always be a bad look for the plattform this early. Especially if you more or less start at zero when it comes to 3rdParty commitment.

Its different once a system is established as a viable system - asking for funds before most people even own or purchased the system feels a bit off.

I'd say it would be a problem if something that emulates it can also emulates its hybrid feature. Or has a solid portable ergonomic for games maybe.
 

Deleted member 8001

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,440
Guys, the emulator most likely won't even have a 'playable' game for at least 3 years and that playable function will probably be locked to some kind of sprite based game running at not even max frame rate. Switch is fine.
 

Deleted member 14002

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,121
I forget isn't Citra a closed emulator?

I have 0 idea why they would announce it less than a year into the systems life. Hopefully Ninty won't shut them down.

And if this was 5+ years in to the consoles life and it's sales potential was coming to an end, I might agree.

If preservation was all people really want out of it, then there's no harm in waiting at least that long.

I was going to make a similar post. Yeah year 1 is super bold.
 

Deleted member 10675

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
990
Madrid
And if this was 5+ years in to the consoles life and it's sales potential was coming to an end, I might agree.

If preservation was all people really want out of it, then there's no harm in waiting at least that long.
Companies don't give a shit about you, I don't know why so many people are so concerned about their interests.

This is not illegal, that is the only thing that matters.
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
Guys, the emulator most likely won't even have a 'playable' game for at least 3 years and that playable function will probably be locked to some kind of sprite based game running at not even max frame rate. Switch is fine.
I thought the same when CEMU was first announced. Then it quickly became a viable contemporary emulator. Zelda was playable almost immediately after launch, IIRC, and its ISO was being pirated either the same day or within days.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
And if this was 5+ years in to the consoles life and it's sales potential was coming to an end, I might agree.

If preservation was all people really want out of it, then there's no harm in waiting at least that long.
It will be like three years, 2 at a minimum to this to be able to play really light games at half decent playability. And starting to develop thr emulator as early as possibld is very benefitial to preservation.
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,732
I thought the same when CEMU was first announced. Then it quickly became a viable contemporary emulator. Zelda was playable almost immediately after launch, IIRC, and its ISO was being pirated either the same day or within days.
The game was being pirated well in advance for wiiu's with homebrew, you couldn't play BOTW at launch.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
And if this was 5+ years in to the consoles life and it's sales potential was coming to an end, I might agree.

If preservation was all people really want out of it, then there's no harm in waiting at least that long.

But how long is "that long" really going to be?

How long is the life of the Switch going to be? Cut off short like the WiiU? Stupid long like the PS2?

At what arbitrary point in the future will you consider it "OK" to make an emulator for it? When you no longer have a personal interest in it?

Developers have no interest in waiting to see if the system is a success or failure, nor should they. They are developing software, independently of the code Nintendo developed, meant to interpret game code that they do no modify, and output a result similar to, if not exactly like, what Nintendo's code does. At no point have they violated any law, or harmed Nintendo in any direct way. People are still free to buy games as they wish, with the stability of the actual system and the support of the hardware manufacturer in case something goes wrong. I can own a Switch, own the game, and still decide to use emulation to see how far and hard I can push that game to look, in the same way people are using CEMU to push BOTW to it's limits. There is no reason why they should hold off on this unless you believe:

1. The existence of emulators deters developers from releasing games on that system, which would be hard to prove given how many emulators have existed during the lifespans of consoles and the games that still came out. There's a better argument that piracy via flash carts/CFW deters more, as there's a lower entry cost ($200-300 console + $20-30 flashcart or SD card VS $500+ PC needed to emulate anything more recent than the PS2 at acceptable speed) encouraging more to go that route.

2. That you need to defend companies like Nintendo on their behalf, who don't even go after emulators anymore because they know the last time this stuff was brought to court, they lost. And who are more focused on stopping distribution of pirated games, rather than the methods in which people are playing those pirated copies (although they still do obviously care about that as well)

3. That you're mad that someone is getting to play something for free that you're not. In which case emulation isn't even directly the issue, it's the existence of piracy itself. And emulators are not directly to blame for that.
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
The game was being pirated well in advance for wiiu's with homebrew, you couldn't play BOTW at launch.
Just looked it up. It was running on CEMU 3 days after launch, with many saying they were going to hold off on the game until it was fully playable. CEMU'S donations skyrocketed, and they made swift progress. It was fully playable from beginning to end a few months later.
 

LuigiV

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,684
Perth, Australia
I don't understand the Switch being similar to 3DS comment. What it's similar to is a Shield TV.
It's similar enough to the 3DS to use Citra as a starting point. They both use ARM architechtures (albeit a couple of generations apart) and run directly related OS's, so it makes sense to modify Citra rather than start from scratch.

It's not like there's an open source Shield TV emulator to start from, so that's a moot point. And that's not to mention the big difference between how software interacts with the hardware and OS on two devices, that would probably make such an emulator conversion less straight forward than you'd think.
 

william_bell

Member
Oct 31, 2017
77
Companies don't give a shit about you, I don't know why so many people are so concerned about their interests.

This is not illegal, that is the only thing that matters.
Exactly. And I guarantee they don't give two shits about preservation or future accessibility. Their goal is short to mid-term profits.

How do people that are against this feel about SNES emulators, right now? Given that a hardware device that plays its games is being sold? Should access to those software emulators be blocked or development discontinued because the hardware manufacturer decided to revive the IP?

You should be arguing that all emulators are unethical, because publishers could potentially monetize their old IPs on new hardware, like is being done on the virtual console and in rereleases and remakes.

This arbitrary "when sales potential has fallen off" ethical argument does not really stand up to reason because the owner of the IP and/or hardware has the right to monetize said IP at any given time, and the existence of an emulator can impact that at any given time.

So you either believe in the ethical use and development of emulators or you don't.
 

Vena

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
4.1 is broken right now, so no, but nothing is stopping them from adding more keys later on. 3DS had this issue for a few months in late 2014 when 7.x stuff wasn't public/broken.

You need only one broken firmware to dump all games. Because all games in theory have to be readable by any firmware. Only encryption changes but the system can be used to defeat it circumstancially.

Switch will have all of its games dumped in the not too distant future not because of 4.X (which isn't bugged like 3.X and is largely useless for a user other than for legitimate use) but because of kernel/TZ access on 1.0.0 where the crypto-engine is wholly defeated.

Same has been true of the PS4.
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,415
São Paulo, Brazil
Please stop derailing the thread with talks about condemning the use of emulators due to piracy. If a fellow user is openly supporting piracy, feel free to use the report function on the offending post. But there are multiple valid reasons to use emulators that don't involve piracy, and the pointing at and denouncing of users who enjoy emulators for those reasons is uncalled for.
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
In a world ruled by money and private companies the law is the only thing that can protect the user.
So we should just be dicks to the full extent allowed by the law to the people who work hard to create a product we all enjoy just because they work in a private company? Under some pretense of "protecting the user?"
 

Deleted member 10675

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
990
Madrid
So we should just be dicks to the full extent allowed by the law to the people who work hard to create a product we all enjoy just because they work in a private company? Under some pretense of "protecting the user?"
You should be a dick with private companies to the extent of the law in order to pursue your personal interests, yes. Especially big companies.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
The first experimental 3DS emulators started popping up within the first few years of the 3DS lifecycle, the existence of an experimental emulator now doesn't mean it'll be able to run games any time soon.

Although the existing Citra codebase and the fact the GPU is well documented will help speed things up a lot.

Is there a way of dumping switch games yet?

Please stop derailing the thread with talks about condemning the use of emulators due to piracy. If a fellow user is openly supporting piracy, feel free to use the report function on the offending post. But there are multiple valid reasons to use emulators that don't involve piracy, and the pointing at and denouncing of users who enjoy emulators for those reasons is uncalled for.
Thank you. This kind of nonsense gets extremely tiring in these threads.
 

PogiJones

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,636
You'd have to have a pretty fucked up moral barometer to think developing emulators is evil or immoral.
I didn't say it was evil or immoral. I said "The law is the only thing that matters" is a disappointing metric by which to evaluate the morality of something. In another post I did say I think contemporary emulators are bad, in that they do more harm than good. I didn't say those developing them were evil or immoral.

Please stop derailing the thread with talks about condemning the use of emulators due to piracy. If a fellow user is openly supporting piracy, feel free to use the report function on the offending post. But there are multiple valid reasons to use emulators that don't involve piracy, and the pointing at and denouncing of users who enjoy emulators for those reasons is uncalled for.
Just to be clear, are you saying that, in this thread about an emulator's creation, we're not allowed to talk about the negative impact this contemporary emulator could have, but we are allowed to talk about the positive impact it could have?

Or are you just saying not to target specific people or make general condemnations of those that use it legitimately?