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Oct 25, 2017
4,789
New York City
Yep , people using this station are on a Fallout game every day....

07mag-subways5-superJumbo.jpg
lol I love this station. The first time I was in it a couple years back, I had to take a bunch of pictures.

To be fair to the MTA, though, this is the worst looking station in the system by a huge margin. Many other stations might not be looking so great, but this station is just ultra cruddy from top to bottom.
 

Neutra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
988
NYC
i think those are the jobs that could be automated but the union stands in the way of automation.
 

Deleted member 34949

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 30, 2017
19,101
lol I love this station. The first time I was in it a couple years back, I had to take a bunch of pictures.

To be fair to the MTA, though, this is the worst looking station in the system by a huge margin. Many other stations might not be looking so great, but this station is just ultra cruddy from top to bottom.
Bowery on the J is pretty damn dire. Canal too, before they renovated the platform a bit. Chambers Street is a whole other level though, yeah.
 

Aeriscloud

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,208
Florida
They do not do anything except open doors and NYCT Subway is the only metro in the world that uses conductors.

Token booth clerks are paid to sit in a bullet proof enclosure all day and are not even allowed by union rules to go down to the platforms.

Are you sure that's all the conductors do? I think you may be incorrect. Granted it's one of the important things they do.
 

Phonzo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,817
Our subway system is hell on earth. I dread everyday that i use it.

And ive been using it my entire life.
 

Aeriscloud

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,208
Florida
Oh, also. It's not the only metro in the world that uses conductors. You should probably more familiarize yourself with other systems.
 

Verelios

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,876
Do it, I've been waiting and delayed hours because of 'repairs' that have gone on for decades. Just fix the damn thing.
 

faceless

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,198
Went to New York last year and I almost want to describe the subway experience there as if someone just built a new city on top of some old ruins and called it a day.
that's basically what they did.

they merged 2 competing 10 year old systems into one.

it's amazing that it runs as well as it does.

no other urban train system on earth compares in scope.
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
The A train alone runs over 30 miles good luck getting from point a to point b in a reasonable amount of time when the bus service is already pretty terrible to begin with.

These would be new bus routes that correspond with the already existing train lines, if they don't exist at the moment. Theoretically, these buses would take advantage of NYC's freeway system in a way the existing routes aren't able to.

Currently, taking 3 buses, it takes 2 and a half hours with overnight routing to ride the length the A Train covers, which is about an hour longer than the same trip on a train. That transit time could be cut with one "A Train" bus that utilized existing infrastructure.

Buses and trains legitimately go about the same average miles per hour. Without the hurdle of daytime traffic, that distance thing isn't necessarily a hurdle.
 

Culex

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,844
It's still an engineering marvel. The infrastructure is already there...it just needs updating. Why is there such bickering over funding? A thriving NYC subway benefits everyone.
 

faceless

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,198
These would be new bus routes that correspond with the already existing train lines, if they don't exist at the moment. Theoretically, these buses would take advantage of NYC's freeway system in a way the existing routes aren't able to.

Currently, taking 3 buses, it takes 2 and a half hours with overnight routing to ride the length the A Train covers, which is about an hour longer than the same trip on a train. That transit time could be cut with one "A Train" bus that utilized existing infrastructure.

Buses and trains legitimately go about the same average miles per hour. Without the hurdle of daytime traffic, that distance thing isn't necessarily a hurdle.
the last time i was in NYC, the night time traffic was also a mess. everyone is an Uber/Lyft driver...
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Oh, also. It's not the only metro in the world that uses conductors. You should probably more familiarize yourself with other systems.
Ok, I eagerly await your informing me of a two person train operation (caveat, metro outside of USA). Hell, even the French with line 14 are implementing fully automated.
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
the last time i was in NYC, the night time traffic was also a mess. everyone is an Uber/Lyft driver...

Presumably, you would still have these trains running during actual periods of high or unpredictable traffic, like the weekends for the C line. Otherwise, semi-accurate bus frequency is something a computer algorithm could figure out with little trouble.
 

Mii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
168
Oh, also. It's not the only metro in the world that uses conductors. You should probably more familiarize yourself with other systems.

Correction for them, and something that has been referenced by NYT and I think RPA, is there are two MTA employees on every train VS 1 typical in most Western European systems.

Forgive people as they smarten up on this matter, NYT has only relatively recently started trying to move heaven and earth to fix the NYC Subway
 

trembli0s

Member
Oct 28, 2017
228
We can be a pro-union place and still rightly decry the mismanagement and sweetheart deals that get doled out to the NYC Subway system. They aren't mutually exclusive.

The management at the top level is a cesspool and having thousands of do nothing jobs is a large part of the cost overruns.
 

flyinj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,937
WTF with all this "reeks like urine lol" garbage?

I ride the NQR/L/G everyday to and from work, and I think I've smelled urine once or twice a year.

The stations look awful, but they by no means "reek of urine".
 

tino

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,561
MTA is dumpster fire. It takes me 90 min, sometimes 2 hour to get home if there is slightly problem. Now I commute on bicycle and it takes exactly 60 min each way. Never any signal problem.
 

Aeriscloud

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,208
Florida
Parts of every major system in the world have some form of automation. Even parts of the L train in NYC are if I'm not mistaken. I'm not saying there shouldn't be automation integrated into the system if and when they can fix all outdated aspects of every line.

Ok, I eagerly await your informing me of a two person train operation (caveat, metro outside of USA). Hell, even the French with line 14 are implementing fully automated.

Well, I know the pointing at the zebra boards was an idea taken from parts of the Tokyo metro. It's far more basic than in Japan though and most of that system is definitely automated, but not all.

 

tino

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,561
lol I love this station. The first time I was in it a couple years back, I had to take a bunch of pictures.

To be fair to the MTA, though, this is the worst looking station in the system by a huge margin. Many other stations might not be looking so great, but this station is just ultra cruddy from top to bottom.

It's Gothic chic. /s
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Parts of every major system in the world have some form of automation. Even parts of the L train in NYC are if I'm not mistaken. I'm not saying there shouldn't be automation integrated into the system if and when they can fix all outdated aspects of every line.

The L train has the ability for 1 person operation (CCTV cameras at every station for door monitoring) but the union prevents its operation and in the last union negotiation Cuomo literally gave the TWU every single thing they wanted.

The Times Square Shuttle is capable and has run fully automated, but those cars mysteriously caught on fire.

Well, I know the pointing at the zebra boards was an idea taken from parts of the Tokyo metro. It's far more basic than in Japan though and most of that system is definitely automated, but not all.



Well to be fair, Tokyo has two wonderfully run, separate Metro systems that are owned and operated by private companies. Even then, they are in the process of converting their lines to one person train operation.
 

Mii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
168
This isn't about being anti union. All recent articles on the matter compare against Western European systems that are also under union.

For construction:
We use 24 employees VS 10 standard in W. Europe for operating the tunnel boring machines (same machine in both places).

Reporters recently learned about an instance where the MTA became aware of 200 people on a 700 person construction site, the east side access, that were not able to be attributed to having any role.

For operation:
We use 2 employees on every train instead of 1 standard in Western Europe, partly because of dated technology that requires a driver and a spotter. But even on the L train, which could have automated driving with its modern signals (the only line in the system with it), the union hasn't even allowed testing of automation standard in W. Europe.

For maintenance:
Because of 24/7 service, every maintenance team needs people to look for oncoming trains and work needs to be stopped and restarted each time. All for 1% of ridership occurring weekdays from 12:30a-5:30a (an offering atypical elsewhere in the world)

All these resources can and should be used, but they can be used to greater effect. I don't want a single person fired or their wages changed (in fact I want more people working for or contracted by the MTA, with a greater variety of bidding contractors), I want them to be utilized at levels reasonable by other unionized parts of the world so that we are doing even more to improve the Subway.
 
Oct 28, 2017
392
WTF with all this "reeks like urine lol" garbage?

I ride the NQR/L/G everyday to and from work, and I think I've smelled urine once or twice a year.

The stations look awful, but they by no means "reek of urine".

you are lucky, I saw more mice than that. reeking of urine may sounds overboard but the system is severely under budget and lacks of maintenance.
 
Last edited:

shazla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
76
that's basically what they did.

they merged 2 competing 10 year old systems into one.

it's amazing that it runs as well as it does.

no other urban train system on earth compares in scope.

This is quite a nice comparison - London has been working on modernizing for the last 20 years from shitty 50s tech and its finally starting to pay off.
infographic-1logo.jpg
 

goldenageoftelevision

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
709
I dont understand how a franchise needs this much money to survive. how much is subway earning a year worldwide through franchise licensing?
 

Acerac

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,218
It's still an engineering marvel. The infrastructure is already there...it just needs updating. Why is there such bickering over funding? A thriving NYC subway benefits everyone.
Paying money now for something that benefits other people later? Who would agree to that?

It's kind of absurd how short sighted people are. ^^;
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
Doesn't seem that bad. Seattle is spending ~80 billion just trying to build a regional lightrail system.
 

GK86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,744
It's still an engineering marvel. The infrastructure is already there...it just needs updating. Why is there such bickering over funding? A thriving NYC subway benefits everyone.

Because both Albany and NYC point to the other saying they really "run" things so it isn't their obligation to fund it.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
Upstate is even worse with how sparse its funding has become. Albany blames the city, the city blames Albany, and nothing gets done for either side except needless vanity projects.

New York everybody!
 

Red Cadet 015

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,947
Wouldn't a penny sales tax solve this in an instant? Why not do that. That's what local governments do in the South for infrastructure projects. Would that be impossible in NYC?
 

WedgeX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,166
Wouldn't a penny sales tax solve this in an instant? Why not do that. That's what local governments do in the South for infrastructure projects. Would that be impossible in NYC?

The Times article speaks a bit to the difficulties of raising funds for the MTA. NYC uses it most, pays a lot for it, but does not actually get to run it. NY State benefits significantly from the economic growth of the subway, ultimately runs the subway, but because the majority of the state does not ride the subway does not want to pay for it.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
The Times article speaks a bit to the difficulties of raising funds for the MTA. NYC uses it most, pays a lot for it, but does not actually get to run it. NY State benefits significantly from the economic growth of the subway, ultimately runs the subway, but because the majority of the state does not ride the subway does not want to pay for it.

Well that and we are getting ripped off
 

Red Cadet 015

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,947
The Times article speaks a bit to the difficulties of raising funds for the MTA. NYC uses it most, pays a lot for it, but does not actually get to run it. NY State benefits significantly from the economic growth of the subway, ultimately runs the subway, but because the majority of the state does not ride the subway does not want to pay for it.
Atlanta doesn't really "run" it's highways but it pays to upgrade them and such. How is this really any different in a sense? Yeah it's shitty, but states are stupid like that- especially when there's alot of jealousy from rural areas.
 

Red Cadet 015

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,947
I think a serious discussion needs to be had about the NYC subway no longer being 24/7. It's a shitty spot and impacts people, but I don't know what else there is because no matter what someone looses out here.
Why? The Subway is literally the only way I know to get around NYC. Yeah, technically I could use an Uber or (oh God) the bus, but the Subway is the most direct, critical means of navigating the city and actually compliments Uber in alot of ways.

I don't want to pick on you but alot of these insane ideas are just arising from governments being fucking impotent. The value of NYC's Subway system could probably be measured in something near a trillion dollars over the course of a year.

The city and the state need to stop fucking bullshitting and get together on how they're going to fix this thing. There is no real technological hurdle. There no hard decision to make. They already know what the correct decision is. They just need to get it done. Politicians need to stop bitching out and get their hands dirty. That's the problem. Not 24 hour service. Not the cost. Weak-kneed politicians.

/Rant
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
Asia
The London/NYC comparison is interesting. Here in Singapore (a city-state/island, so somewhat comparable to Manhattan), the amount of total track is half, with 119 stations and buses covering the gaps. But ridership overall is very close, coming in at about 1 billion/year rough average. I'd say SG is extremely advanced compared to NYC in that it's mostly automated with a card-based system and extremely cheap fares (you pay by distance using fare-debit cards, not by arbitrary zone). But Singapore has substantial advantages in government infrastructure and spending to build, because the population depends on it. Cars are actively discouraged.

Montreal is an interesting comparison as it's clearly in much better health than the NYC system, but shares similar problems in terms of infrastructure fatigue. The new trains are nice but the cost and stations are definitely suffering. The Pink Line proposal is interesting but I'm not sure any government would survive the debt taken on to build it.

Serious question (stupid question?)... wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to build/expand it above the ground?

No, because the available land doesn't exist for the most part - the Government would have to begin a repurchasing program. NYC is one of the world's most expensive cities, and then you have to factor in the issue of weather. Digging underground is costly and would shut down parts of the transit system, but it is relatively protected from the problems above.