Though this reminds me of a post about how Marvel supposedly scaled back their efforts towards the female audience, since Disney had other franchises for that market sector.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
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It's very difficult for me to imagine a scenario in which an anime studio with a patreon actually gets enough money to pay for all the employees. Or even a significant enough amount of money to supplement the losses often accrued with more experimental anime. I want to believe it's possible, but...
Then again, animators get paid like shit so maybe it could work!
Then again, animators get paid like shit so maybe it could work!
I don't think the problem is crowdfunding not working, but what the crowdfunding is far. If you wanna crowdfund part of the budget for making a specific thing, sure it could work. I haven't been in the loop for the Trigger Patreon stuff lately, but I should point out that it's silly to think there is any intention to use it to keep the studio afloat or to pay all employees with donations alone. Trigger isn't an indie studio, they are part of a larger network of studios owned under the Ultra Super Pictures umbrella. We're talking about direct ties to Good Smile Company, Max Factory, Nitroplus, etc.
The other thing to note is that the idea that anime studios suffer the most when things bomb is generally.... that an absolute truth. In many cases, the anime studio is the least impacted entity in a case where a show flops, because they are likely the party to have invested the least (or none) into the production. They mainly get paid to do the work. Especially in adaptations or new IPs fronted by big publishers in the hopes of hitting the jackpot on the Next Big Thing. The cases of studios literally dying from lack of funds tend to have to do with not being able to get work to support a healthy cashflow after expanding on manpower to produce projects. It's the same thing we see with independent middle-tier devs in the game space. Those who employ 100-200 people, and have to juggle 3-4 projects at a time from different publishers to keep everyone working. If they get a big contract that requires recruitment to staff up more, and then that project gets canned, they have to lay a bunch of people off, or in some cases if they took loans or whatever, they might even close. It's not because their games bombed, it's because they are no fully in control of their own destiny. Anime studios can be seen as basically an entire industry of independent middle-tier game devs.
The other thing to note is that the idea that anime studios suffer the most when things bomb is generally.... that an absolute truth. In many cases, the anime studio is the least impacted entity in a case where a show flops, because they are likely the party to have invested the least (or none) into the production. They mainly get paid to do the work. Especially in adaptations or new IPs fronted by big publishers in the hopes of hitting the jackpot on the Next Big Thing. The cases of studios literally dying from lack of funds tend to have to do with not being able to get work to support a healthy cashflow after expanding on manpower to produce projects. It's the same thing we see with independent middle-tier devs in the game space. Those who employ 100-200 people, and have to juggle 3-4 projects at a time from different publishers to keep everyone working. If they get a big contract that requires recruitment to staff up more, and then that project gets canned, they have to lay a bunch of people off, or in some cases if they took loans or whatever, they might even close. It's not because their games bombed, it's because they are no fully in control of their own destiny. Anime studios can be seen as basically an entire industry of independent middle-tier game devs.
Jesus Christ that thread about Nintendo's representation of social issues isn't even a page long and it's already a cesspit
I kind of get where Amiibola is coming from because the prime example in the OP is Breath of the Wild, which is both a really beloved game, and a game that most people wouldn't first choose as examples of socially regressive politics, especially considering how amazing the Gerudo city is and how strong (in both sense) and beloved characters like Urbosa are. It then expresses disbelief at the fact that the game is getting rave scores despite the representation issues it indeed has, and conflates that with "reviewers not giving a shit". I think it's unnecessarily confrontational and I can imagine anyone that's not already strongly engaged with social issues would feel attacked by it.
And it's kind of a shame, because I wholeheartedly agree with Lime's overall point and feel it's one that really needs discussion, which is that "no politics" and "conservative politics" are often synonymous in the general public's eye, causing companies focused on creating family-friendly entertainment to adopt the latter as a standard. Disney has been like that forever and even today when they're trying to push things a bit, they're still decades behind. This is, of course, disastrous in terms of educating children about social issues, and plays a huge part in perpetuation socially regressive politics, which is why stuff like Steven Universe (a family friendly cartoon that integrates in the most natural way everything from explicitly lesbian couples to consent and harassment) is so incredibly important for the movement, and why we desperately need more of it.
This exactly. I'm aware there are other examples, and i'm aware that Nintendo games can be a little... creepy sometimes (Tokyo Kirage Sessions is looking to be a damn fine game as far as i played, but holy fuck it can get creepy) but BotW is not one of those games.
I understand that, but BOTW is still not above criticism and it does some shitty things, even if it's in subtle ways. And there's a problem with people feeling personally attacked just because someone is criticizing certain aspects of a game, but I guess that's just gamer culture.
Maybe some of us are more insensitive, wich is sadly normal. In any case, no one has said that BotW is above criticism. If anything, some of that criticism feels exaggerated, or that it has misunderstood the game (As the question on why couldn't Link be a girl)
Aonuma has still yet to provide an answer to this question that isn't total horseshit.
BotW has good parts and bad parts to it's representation. You can argue that the OP was too aggressive (though it goes a bit into tone policing) but there are some issues with BotW and it's not immune to criticism either - and just cus it's got good bits does not mean that the other bits should get a pass, other companies have to deal with the same criticism, for example, BioWare has been lauded again and again for it's handling of minorities in it's game, it still got criticism for not including enough gay romance in MEA (which they fixed by making the character Jaal bi - something that would have actually taken quite a few resources) as well as a somewhat clumsy handiling of a trans character called Hailey Abrams (which they fixed through numerous patches). Companies get called out all the time it's how they improve. No ones saying that BotW is a bad game or even that it's the worst example of poor representation but it does have it's issues.
I'm not too keen on discussing this here again, but as someone who played the game entirely aside of the DLC, the story is designed around Link being a boy in BotW, so the game itself provides the answer.
On almost any other Zelda title? Yes, i agree. The likes of Wind Waker, Twilight Princess or Breath of the Wild? I can't see it without making the story more impersonal.
Oh, for sure. I think the thing is, BotW is "above average" compared to most Japanese games, which still puts it in a less than ideal place, but at least it feels like it's trying. Like your old bigoted uncle trying to be nice to your transgender sister; at least he's trying, even if he's still probably saying insensitive stuff out of habit.
Besides that, I think that (Link's gender nonsensical excuses aside), the actual game is actually pretty good in terms of gender representation. Transgender representation, however...
That's unfortunately human nature and it's not going away anytime soon, so we can't act as if it's something that can be ignored. Follow utilitatism and always voice your points in the way that will make the most positive impact, not in the way you would voice them in an ideal world.
I disagree here, I don't see more than like 5% of the game changing if Link and Zelda's genders were swapped. In all honesty I think the real barrier is that that would put a male character in the role of waiting for a female character to release them, and Japan simply isn't quite there yet.
Yeah, that thread, guys. I don't know what to tell you about that one. Because none of you bothered to link it.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ni...r-apolitical-veneer-of-fun-are-such-bs.13480/
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ni...r-apolitical-veneer-of-fun-are-such-bs.13480/
Speaking of BOTW, I had issues with Mipha and that Kakariko village girl, whatever her name was. They're not, like, horribly misogynistic, but they're obviously there to be wish fulfillment (look at these cute, shy girls who totally want you to dick them, player!) and it was kind of annoying to me.
Oh yeah. I guess Mipha and Kakariko girl stood out more to me since they kinda have that terrible Yamato Nadeshiko thing going.
Actually, Zelda games always do this and it's obnoxious. I hate when games do that, honestly. Same with recent Fire Emblem games. I don't need to have my dick constantly sucked by your terrible characters, and, frankly, it's a little insulting.
Nintendo is slowly getting better about this stuff, but I also remember the "but what would link do if zelda was the playable character????" and "link can't be a girl because the triforce would be unbalanced!" bullshit.
The lore argument's never been convincing to me, since it's not like Nintendo has ever put any emphasis on that to begin with. Hell, there's like zero lore that would prevent them from being as "radical" as having link be a gerudo woman for a game.
I absolutely hate this in Persona 4 and 5 as well.
wow senpai/joker you're so cool
The lore argument's never been convincing to me, since it's not like Nintendo has ever put any emphasis on that to begin with. Hell, there's like zero lore that would prevent them from being as "radical" as having link be a gerudo woman for a game.
I absolutely hate this in Persona 4 and 5 as well.
wow senpai/joker you're so cool
No one is going to buy expensive figurines of characters who dared to fancy anyone other than the main character!
Seriously, though, it's fucking creepy how some people react to female characters who dare to take an interest in someone who isn't the player avatar. Really fucking creepy.
And no, I won't defend them. I won't say "well, they're unhappy men living out the life they don't have in the real world, let them have their fun". They don't need self-insert power fantasies - they need to grow the fuck up.
I thought it was a bit refreshing to give Link a romantic interest that wasn't just the tired childhood friend with very vague feelings (Saria, Ilia). As for Paya, I'll admit characters like her are a bit of guilty pleasure for me. I fully understand it's a really dumb trope, but I can't help but find her kind of adorable. I'm sorry orz
If there's one thing that annoys me about BotW that isn't brought up enough, it's that creepy as Hell sidequest involving the little Zora girl falling in love with the adult Hylian man (and he's totally okay falling in love with her). It's okay though! She's OLDER than him! Man, how did THAT make it through?
Could you please post an example? I honestly have no idea what you're referring to.
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There's a comparison I always want to make but am conflicted about actually using, because it IS such a loaded analogy (with some uncomfortable parallels to how things actually are), but also spells out how fucking monstrous the treatment of women in gaming has been historically:
Imagine if an entire entertainment market was tailored to fetishizing the enslavement of non-whites. So while games weren't "about" keeping slaves or the myriad disgusting stereotypes about non-whites, that imagery is the primary lense used to justify the presense of non-white characters. And imagine those disgusting characterizations bleeding into the writing; wave after wave of non-white characters written to embrace and appreciate the yoke of oppression. Nine-tenths of all characters being white, and the one-tenth that dares show its face constantly reference their love of chains and forced labor and Confederate battle flags and swastikas, and regularly fawn over just how superior whites are. An entire industry where the norm is these "dolls" of non-whites existing effectively to cater to the ego of white supremacists. And imagine the real-world people who aren't white supremacists pointing this out, and asking simply for the presence of characters that exist outside of the lense of enslavement being told to "stop being so political."
That's how the treatment of female characters can feel. That's why when a character is more likely to wear hot-pants and a visible thong than PANTS and A SHIRT, you rightly percieve their presence as a matter of utility to another audience than any element of their own personality or actions. A thong itself isn't a symbol of oppression, but when an industry treats it as the uniform for your fucking gender, it surely becomes that.
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I can't really think of much about Link that would need to change personality or story-wise if he were a girl. Let's be real, he's very charming, but he barely has a personality and doesn't even speak. I remember some people being critical of how Link barely reacted to things in cutscenes, too. Most of your ideas about him are meant to be left to interpretation. That's kind of the point of his character.
I'm one of the people that would prefer to have playable female characters, and have well written female characters take a more prominent role, instead of Link himself being changed. However, I don't think Link's personality or the story is really a counter argument against those who would like to play as fem Link, though. I don't see what really sets Link apart in this game compared to other 3D Zeldas. Apart from not being able to change your name, of course.
One down, one more to go.
Edit: also yea, that thread is not an enjoyable one to browse.
As long as they are spending more money than you on cheap fantasies, the last thing game makers and their associates wants are for these people to ever grow up.
They are keeping their pockets lined with their everlasting neverland.
That part is already reality. :/
Your analogy is very apt, and it's sad that people will dismiss it simply because they will feel that imagery is gross and unacceptable, which is the entire point.
Meanwhile in a paralel world, Tluatseg posts in the ArEteser forums that the current status quo of black slavery fetishization is as bad as if women were regularly portrayed as sexual objects to be ogled by males, to the dismissal of others as farfetched and disgusting.
Some people don't wan to admit the problems Nintendo has. To be fair, I do think Reggie's quote is used out of context. While it is certainly true Nintendo comes with a gameplay idea before story and world building, Reggie is wrong to say Nintendo games are purposefully apolitical. Splatoone strong anti-pollution message, Xenoblade Chronicles 2's statement on the dynamics of women, even games like Pokemon Sun and Moon and the ARMS have strong statements on relationships and how work can destroy a person. To say that Nintendo games are purposefully apolitical is wrong.
With that being said, there is certainly something to be said about intent versus execution. Given my own problems with XBC2's mixed messaging, Nintendo has a problem with its depiction of characters. Like how Peach isn't allowed to have a personality until after you rescue her (not to mention how uncomfortable the scene with Bowser forcibly putting a ring on Peach is) or how Link has every woman in a ten mile radius fall in love with him.
That part is inextricable from a power fantasy, for better or worse, and most games are exactly that. I felt Zelda was relatively tame with it, as compared to Persona games and their 100% approval rate main characters. I think this is one of those things where the best we can hope for is equal opportuniy equivalents like Mass Effect 2: when I played as female Shephard, I had a veritable harem of male (and yeah, also female) characters swooning over me too.
Agreed. Not to mention, how these same people will scream about how "mature" anime and video games really is and how it should be taken seriously but when anyone actually takes the time to seriously critique it, they will suddenly claim that their precious video games are just toys. They want all the accolades of being treated as mature with none of the criticism.
I'm going to be honest, I kind of didn't mind Mipha because she was far more direct in her feelings than other "shy girl" personalities. You find out that Link was at least aware of Mipha's feelings and didn't hide it. So it ultimately didn't bother me. Puya on the other hand made my eyes roll.
Nihon Falcom was years ahead of Nintendo. Adol Christin is saved in Ys IV by a woman warrior when she beats the guard an releases him and Doggie from jail. Obviously a hint to Link to the Past, released 2 years earlier.
Also the inclusion of Yunica Tovah in Ys Origins and her love and devotion to the godesses and strive to save them, gives the game an undertone Nintendo wouldnt venture entering.
This game made me forget Zelda fast
I agree about falcom past games.... they were great in that departement... but i feel that both atlus and falcom regressed a lot in term of writing and characters.... i still love sen no kiseki/trails of cold steel and persona 5, but the writing and characters are far less enjoyable compared to previous entries... they clearly want to pander to a larger public
was way better when the relationships were already established, rather than having to choose between all the girls...
The lore argument is especially hilarious given the recent interview where they talked about how they don't still don't even know where BOTW fits in the timeline. "We don't care enough about this story shit. Oh, but it still wouldn't make sense for a Zelda game to star a girl!" I am somewhat encouraged, at the very least, by certain comments about how they've put thought into it since the uproar. We'll see if it comes to fruition.
I think I fall differently on some elements from a lot of people who have problems with it, but it sure isn't a perfect game by any stretch. I can understand why people have problems where I don't, though. (Probably mostly because I'm a dude.) (Still far and away my favorite Zelda game and favorite "open-air" (oh boy) game of all time, though.)
IMO gimme BOTW: This Time Link's A Goron. (Ever since MM I've legitimately wanted a Zelda game starring a Goron. Rolling around in that field was such a good time.)
I think I fall differently on some elements from a lot of people who have problems with it, but it sure isn't a perfect game by any stretch. I can understand why people have problems where I don't, though. (Probably mostly because I'm a dude.) (Still far and away my favorite Zelda game and favorite "open-air" (oh boy) game of all time, though.)
IMO gimme BOTW: This Time Link's A Goron. (Ever since MM I've legitimately wanted a Zelda game starring a Goron. Rolling around in that field was such a good time.)
I felt Persona 3's cast did a pretty good job of managing to not be overwhelming about it, at least. SEES often feels more like a group of business partners than close knit friends. Their lives don't revolve around exclaiming about how cool Minato is every five seconds.
But yeah, it's absolutely part of the power fantasy. Look how many beautiful girls are basically throwing themselves at senpai's feet! Take them all, if you really want. They won't care too much.
boy i sure miss social link reversals/breaks
I haven't played a YS game in a bunch of years. I think the last one was YS Seven on PSP? Maybe I should give them more attention.
Not gonna lie: I was massively disappointed when the DLC didn't give you an option to play through the game as one of the other champions/Zelda, with appropriate skill sets...
Yeah, it's gotten progressively worse over the series, to the point where you're a seventeen year old who can openly date his teacher and/or doctor. No doubt the inevitable remake will let you date your schoolfriend and her older sister at the time, too, alongside some knowing banter about how wrong it feels, but how right!
I'd say "at least they haven't gone into incest yet", but then I remembered that P5 pretty much treats Futaba as the MC's younger sister and...
Yeah, I really want to play as a Gordon or a Ruto because of how different the gameplay would have been.
Getting progressively worse all the time is what I'd call many JRPG series these days.
It's sort of sad that their imagination of a Zelda game looks so limited. I've been playing a bunch of Tyranny, and it's great to see how a bit of creativity can completely change a story's formula and bring new life into what is otherwise a familiar power fantasy.
I'd say that the main blame is that Nintendo is a Japanese company, and a conservative one at that. Social issues don't have much recognition in Japan, and Nintendo specifically doesn't want to involve themselves in any political statements. It's built into their corporate culture, and they'd be one of the last gaming companies to move away from this stance. It's still a bit nuts though, that a game series that specifically has a girl in its title cannot possibly also star a girl as well.
*those knives only last three meals before shattering
Lol, Stupid auto-correct. I don't like posting on my phone.
You can lay all of the blame on the otakufication of the JRPG.
Quick question: how do you find it? Just it's on sale on Origin at the moment and I've been thinking of taking the plunge
hahaha shit, very good
*those knives only last three meals before shattering
See now I'm just imagining Cooking Mama but with Gordon Ramsey in it..... I would so buy that game!
Zel(da)'s Kitchen.
...Zelda owns the restaurant, and the five champions are her chefs. Only Ganon has opened a rival establishment across the street and is stealing all her customers, so she calls in Gordon Ramsey for help.
There's also a B-plot focused on Beedle's ice cream van.
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