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Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
So people aren't necessarily going to war against "sexy", but the disparity between that and other female designs?

Yea. It was discussed here earlier, but most of the posters in this thread seem to be fine with sexy, or even with nudity or sex in games, if tastefully done and relevant to the game. A lot of people seem to like the Wolfenstein sex scenes(NSFW) which feature female nudity, for example. As was mentioned on the previous page, Bayonetta has it's fans in this thread.

It's more objectification and as you mentioned the disparity between those designs and regular female character designs. Plus the distinct difference between how male characters and female characters are handled in games.

I think it's probably part that you haven't seen them in a lot of years and part that a non-anime fan might not even necessarily recognize some of the more low key pandering that happens.

That said, I really don't think that completely insidious, messed up pandering is the complete medium-wide problem that it's sometimes made out to be. Anime that tends to become popular among general western audiences has demographic trends that fall in the direction of teenage boys, which means you get the kind of stuff that happens in media that target teenage boys. Anime that you tend to be told to stay way the hell away from in general western audiences and thus are aware of in that capacity targets male otaku, which has the content that leans further into sexualization in more extreme ways. Those are only two subsets of the actual broader scope of the medium. They're BIG subsets, but they're only two of them. The extreme emphasis on those two subsets skews the entire impression of the medium heavily.

Thanks for the info. I will admit I am a bit biased towards anime without really watching much of it. I'll give some of the stuff from the recommendations a shot and see what it's like nowadays.
 
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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I think it's probably part that you haven't seen them in a lot of years and part that a non-anime fan might not even necessarily recognize some of the more low key pandering that happens.

That said, I really don't think that completely insidious, messed up pandering is the complete medium-wide problem that it's sometimes made out to be. Anime that tends to become popular among general western audiences has demographic trends that fall in the direction of teenage boys, which means you get the kind of stuff that happens in media that target teenage boys. Anime that you tend to be told to stay way the hell away from in general western audiences and thus are aware of in that capacity targets male otaku, which has the content that leans further into sexualization in more extreme ways. Those are only two subsets of the actual broader scope of the medium. They're BIG subsets, but they're only two of them. The extreme emphasis on those two subsets skews the entire impression of the medium heavily.


You never miss an opportunity for this, do you.

(Do it, holy crap. I listened years ago and it's one of the best decisions I ever made with regard to anime.)

Honestly I stopped watching anime that heavily after 2014 for vaious reasons and just didn't have time to go back. Only watched Kobiyashi's Dragon Maid (which...MAN let me tell you that show pissed me the hell off at around episode 4, 5) and Osomatsu-san this year. Am interested in what the new season holds but haven't really given any time to look.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,601
As an artist myself, I can understand that viewpoint. I have the desire to someday make a videogame on my own, and not on a team with other people, that truly gives form to what's inside
I'm an individual artist. I make things that receive instant feedback, compared to video game programming schedules.

I find feedback comes differently from different demographics.

Even without the interference from committee work, I find the feedback valuable. It often points out things I KNOW are not done very well, and was hoping I didn't need to fix. Because fixing it would be hard. But when I take the criticism on board, I make much better art that is accessible for more people.

However, at a point we have to recognize that not everyone is the same, and some media is intended for more targeted audiences. In the case of gaming, my feeling is that data shows that console gaming is largely dominated by young men; and as a woman, if I enter that space I expect to be in a very male-centric environment. As such, sexy game characters generally do not bother me personally. I have often liked them more than some of the men I know. But again, we are now only discussing personal perspectives.

Since studies (posted in this thread, historically, I believe) show that women are over 40% of console audience as well, it makes no sense for them to accept being "not the target audience". What DOES make sense, is to hold up their wallets and ask video game makers to come get their money by making games that DON'T make them feel excluded. Which is the purpose of this very thread, as it happens.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
I'm an individual artist. I make things that receive instant feedback, compared to video game programming schedules.

I find feedback comes differently from different demographics.

Even without the interference from committee work, I find the feedback valuable. It often points out things I KNOW are not done very well, and was hoping I didn't need to fix. Because fixing it would be hard. But when I take the criticism on board, I make much better art that is accessible for more people.

Since studies (posted in this thread, historically, I believe) show that women are over 40% of console audience as well, it makes no sense for them to accept being "not the target audience". What DOES make sense, is to hold up their wallets and ask video game makers to come get their money by making games that DON'T make them feel excluded. Which is the purpose of this very thread, as it happens.

I get it. No, really, I do. Feedback isn't bad, and it definitely helps you grow as a creator.

That being said, for an intensely personal work, sometimes you just don't want to hear anyone else's opinion on how you should write X character or draw X design, even if you should.

All I'm saying is that many people have the misconception that 'art' comes from a completely untainted, personal space where someone crystallizes the world of their mind in our reality, and criticism/influence pre-release by other people 'degrades' this work. Simply put, that's not how videogames are made, and that's not really how art works either for the most part.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
Yes, agreed.

People talking about subjects they are ignorant about really boils my noodle. But in a bad way, you know?
https://zenpencils.com/comic/144-the-artist-troll-war-1-hatred-breeds-hatred/
https://zenpencils.com/comic/145-the-artist-troll-war-part-2-negativity-destroys-all/
https://zenpencils.com/comic/146-the-artist-troll-war-3-creators-haters/
https://zenpencils.com/comic/147-the-artist-troll-war-4-good-art-triumphant/

This stupid zenpencils comic series got railed a lot for basically being a strawman about how all artists should just be creative, and all criticism is bad and gets thrown into the umbrella of 'negativity' and 'hate.' I think the mindset that criticism is unwanted and has no place is especially gaining traction with some people lately.

That sometimes gets applied to titty games, too, which comes around to the relevance of me bringing it up in this thread. "Just let them be creative! Stop being a hater!" and all that.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,411
The English Wilderness
Yeah, I was going to say that saying Evangelion is fanservice-free is... quite a generous point of view. I mean, it also popularized literally skin-tight suits on female mecha pilots. On 15-year olds.

It probably gets a pass because 1) it was revolutionary and pretty much redefined modern anime, and 2) it also has a ton of extremely strong, psychologically detailed female characters, passing the Bechdel test in most episodes.

It's also one massive allegory about sheltered geeks with intimacy/self-esteem issues, who jerk off over vulnerable teenage girls. Literally.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
https://zenpencils.com/comic/144-the-artist-troll-war-1-hatred-breeds-hatred/
https://zenpencils.com/comic/145-the-artist-troll-war-part-2-negativity-destroys-all/
https://zenpencils.com/comic/146-the-artist-troll-war-3-creators-haters/
https://zenpencils.com/comic/147-the-artist-troll-war-4-good-art-triumphant/

This stupid zenpencils comic series got railed a lot for basically being a strawman about how all artists should just be creative, and all criticism is bad and gets thrown into the umbrella of 'negativity' and 'hate.' I think the mindset that criticism is unwanted and has no place is especially gaining traction with some people lately.

That sometimes gets applied to titty games, too, which comes around to the relevance of me bringing it up in this thread. "Just let them be creative! Stop being a hater!" and all that.
It's an especially fun thought because like, anyone with even the slightest amount of formal training has had critique drilled into them until it's a language they're completely fluent in. I don't think people even realize how much of the training and learning process when it comes to any creative field is devoted to criticism, or just how brutal that criticism can get, or how incredibly important it is to the creative process and your growth as an artist. Your skin gets THICK.

It's also something that people tend to decide to sidestep every time I bring that up to counter the notion that critique stifles creativity, which is unfortunate.

Like, holy shit as if I'm completely married to every individual line I draw--each granted to me from on high by a heavenly muse.
 

spider

CLANG
On Break
Oct 23, 2017
973
Australia
Sorry for my insensitivity here. People need thicker skin like they used to have.

So many are uptight and offended so easily these days, while everyone else is bending over backwards to take their view.

I see more men taking womens side on issues than ever, while women continue with their view. Same with races, etc..

It's good to look at things from all sides but stop giving up your identities to please a different group. And you don' have to pretend to agree to make concessions.

what is this?

are you mad, the maddest gamer? who made you mad? :(
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
I see more men taking womens side on issues than ever, while women continue with their view. Same with races, etc..

It's good to look at things from all sides but stop giving up your identities to please a different group. And you don' have to pretend to agree to make concessions.

What do you mean by stop giving up your identities. The man identity?

I identify as a soy boy, okay.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,824
Sorry for my insensitivity here. People need thicker skin like they used to have.

So many are uptight and offended so easily these days, while everyone else is bending over backwards to take their view.

I see more men taking womens side on issues than ever, while women continue with their view. Same with races, etc..

It's good to look at things from all sides but stop giving up your identities to please a different group. And you don' have to pretend to agree to make concessions.

Hmm...
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
6YToyEF.png
 

PtM

Banned
Dec 7, 2017
3,582
Sorry for my insensitivity here. People need thicker skin like they used to have.

So many are uptight and offended so easily these days, while everyone else is bending over backwards to take their view.

I see more men taking womens side on issues than ever, while women continue with their view. Same with races, etc..

It's good to look at things from all sides but stop giving up your identities to please a different group. And you don' have to pretend to agree to make concessions.
Are you here to show us the light? Are we all praying to false gods? False goddesses?
 

Kapus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
744
Under your bed
Sorry for my insensitivity here. People need thicker skin like they used to have.

So many are uptight and offended so easily these days, while everyone else is bending over backwards to take their view.

I see more men taking womens side on issues than ever, while women continue with their view. Same with races, etc..

It's good to look at things from all sides but stop giving up your identities to please a different group. And you don' have to pretend to agree to make concessions.
I have no idea who this is aimed at or what it's trying to say
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
in the ideal world there are no women or people of color or non heterosexual people so that we could all just be straight white dudes lovin what we love together in harmony
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
How is this tasteful? It's extreme just like the rest of the game.
Two consenting adults spontaneously deciding to engage in coitus in a relatively natural fashion.

No bullshit over will they/won't they, no stupid insulting pandery outfits, no attempt to make it look classier than what it is, none of that. It's completely unpretentious and I, at least, love it for that.

I wish more games could treat sex that way instead of tossing all the women into shitty outfits for men to leer at (including prepubescent girls!) and treating everything surrounding sex with kid gloves because they're too scared to raise their ratings or call attention to the fact that their virginal goddesses could possibly be having sex without the audience's participation.
 

sharpforprez

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
735
Two consenting adults spontaneously deciding to engage in coitus in a relatively natural fashion.

No bullshit over will they/won't they, no stupid insulting pandery outfits, no attempt to make it look classier than what it is, none of that. It's completely unpretentious and I, at least, love it for that.

I wish more games could treat sex that way instead of tossing all the women into shitty outfits for men to leer at (including prepubescent girls!) and treating everything surrounding sex with kid gloves because they're too scared to raise their ratings or call attention to the fact that their virginal goddesses could possibly be having sex without the audience's participation.
Just because it's shooting to be "real" doesn't mean it's not extreme. I'm not going to defend sexy outfits but I don't see how a hot woman getting nailed is somehow a better alternative. What do the two even have to do with each other actually?
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,601
Just because it's shooting to be "real" doesn't mean it's not extreme. I'm not going to defend sexy outfits but I don't see how a hot woman getting nailed is somehow a better alternative. What do the two even have to do with each other actually?
"Getting nailed" is a terrible phrase that suggests you don't believe women have sexual impulses.

Try to consider the things you say before hitting post.

Adults choosing to have sex because both people want to is something that should be more prevalent than creepshots.
 

sharpforprez

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
735
Adults choosing to have sex because both people want to is something that should be more prevalent than creepshots.
They were fucking, period. Why should that be heavy in video games over, say, Xenoblade Chronicles 2 designs? At least XC2 is accessible to children. Adults should know better. Why do we have to present them with the correct and natural way of dealing with sex? (what ever the FUCK that is, as if people don't have weird sex out here).
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
They were fucking, period. Why should that be heavy in video games over, say, Xenoblade Chronicles 2 designs? At least XC2 is accessible to children. Adults should know better. Why do we have to present them with the correct and natural way of dealing with sex? (what ever the FUCK that is, as if people don't have weird sex out here).
It doesn't have anything to do with teaching adults how to have sex, like, that's not...that's not the purpose of the scenes. Sex is part of the human condition, including "fucking" because you just "wanna fuck." Kids shouldn't be anywhere the hell near Wolfenstein, so that's not an issue.

It's a frank representation of a thing that humans do, and since most games that are overtly pandery and creep on their characters with the camera are actively afraid of the actual act of sex, it stands out all the more. If you're going to represent sex in a work of media, better to actually represent sex than try and pander to sexual impulses at every possible turn while also avoiding actually addressing what you're doing.

The point of the initial line of conversation was to reinforce that the people active in this thread are not prudes that are afraid of sex--a common "misconception". I think the Wolfenstein example pretty readily achieves this.
 

sharpforprez

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
735
It doesn't have anything to do with teaching adults how to have sex, like, that's not...that's not the purpose of the scenes. Sex is part of the human condition, including "fucking" because you just "wanna fuck." Kids shouldn't be anywhere the hell near Wolfenstein, so that's not an issue.

It's a frank representation of a thing that humans do, and since most games that are overtly pandery and creep on their characters with the camera are actively afraid of the actual act of sex, it stands out all the more. If you're going to represent sex in a work of media, better to actually represent sex than try and pander to sexual impulses at every possible turn while also avoiding actually addressing what you're doing.

The point of the initial line of conversation was to reinforce that the people active in this thread are not prudes that are afraid of sex--a common "misconception". I think the Wolfenstein example pretty readily achieves this.
Yes Wolfenstein is a good example for you to use because it does indeed have sex, but you're not addressing why those kind of scenes should be in games more. If you've been gaming for a while you know kids are going to play them. This should be an actual concern of yours if you're going to advocate for more sex scenes in games. Meanwhile these pandery games remain cartoony and imaginative, not necessarily afraid to depict actual sex, but not even attempting to because it's often unnecessary. Not to mention crude. I wouldn't want that in Wolfenstein of all games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
Maybe this is a controversial opinion, but I think if I had to choose, I'd rather have my hypothetical teenage kids see that Wolfenstein scene over the loli and the blue thing in XC2.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
488
Yes Wolfenstein is a good example for you to use because it does indeed have sex, but you're not addressing why those kind of scenes should be in games more. If you've been gaming for a while you know kids are going to play them. This should be an actual concern of yours if you're going to advocate for more sex scenes in games. Meanwhile these pandery games remain cartoony and imaginative, not necessarily afraid to depict actual sex, but not even attempting to because it's often unnecessary. Not to mention crude. I wouldn't want that in Wolfenstein of all games.
The post you were responding to didn't actually say anything specifically about wanting more scenes like that in games though. Rather, the assertion was that if games are going to address sex, addressing sex should be more common than creeping on female characters in ways that promote sexual fantasy while simultaneously refusing to address sex itself. If you glorify women as worthy of sexual lust by creeping on them with the camera and then deny them actual impulse for and participation in sex, you're LITERALLY treating them, collectively, as an object. Like, that's part of where the term "objectification" comes from.

If you want to argue that that'd pull a lower age rating with the ESRB, PEGI, or CERO I mean sure. Yeah. It would. Why is that relevant though, with regard to responsible depiction of sexual themes?

If "think of the children" applies to games in this context you're going to have to go after film, television, and novels too, because all of those are mediums that are consumed by minors and also, in separate works intended for older audiences, explore sex as part of the human condition. Why would games be any different than their fellow mediums, in allowing for the exploration of that facet of humanity? They have a ratings system that's almost directly analogous to the one films have already, so it's not as though that's a discrepancy.

Unless you'd like to make an actual assertion that sex shouldn't be explored in media at all, in which case we're going to reach an impasse pretty damn fast.
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
That's sick. One is actual sex, the other is a sexual design in an otherwise childish game. How desperate are you to equate the two?
I'm kinda with Cannon on this too. Ideally, I wouldn't expose kids to sexual content willy-nilly, but if something is to make an impression on them, it might as well be consensual acts over creepy weirdo voyeur bullshit enacted on unwilling/unaware characters.
 

sharpforprez

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
735
Why would games be any different than their fellow mediums, in allowing for the exploration of that facet of humanity? They have a ratings system that's almost directly analogous to the one films have already, so it's not as though that's a discrepancy.

Unless you'd like to make an actual assertion that sex shouldn't be explored in media at all, in which case we're going to reach an impasse pretty damn fast.
You're contorting the argumentt. I didn't say sex shouldn't be in games at all, I'm asking for you to make a compelling argument for there to be more of your so-called "real" sex and less XC2 garbage.
I'm kinda with Cannon on this too. Ideally, I wouldn't expose kids to sexual content willy-nilly, but if something is to make an impression on them, it might as well be consensual acts over creepy weirdo voyeur bullshit enacted on unwilling/unaware characters.
Well that is certainly your decision. I'm sure you'd get by nicely showing a full on sex scene to a kid over XC2.

I seriously don't know why you guys are taking me down this fucked up rabbit hole. You know good and well you would never show a kid a sex scene, period.
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
You're contorting the argumentt. I didn't say sex shouldn't be in games at all, I'm asking for you to make a compelling argument for there to be more of your so-called "real" sex and less XC2 garbage.

Well that is certainly your decision. I'm sure you'd get by nicely showing a full on sex scene to a kid over XC2.

I seriously don't know why you guys are taking me down this fucked up rabbit hole. You know good and well you would never show a kid a sex scene, period.
You're right, I wouldn't. We're speaking hypotheticals here. Still, I wouldn't let a kid play XC2 either if I could help it. I'd rather they not learn that subverting consent and free agency of women is a-okay.

In fact I went to Mexico once and saw my little bro playing Fire Emblem. The 1000 YO dragon girl came in my head and I invited him to come play KotOR on my modded Xbox instead.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
You're contorting the argumentt. I didn't say sex shouldn't be in games at all, I'm asking for you to make a compelling argument for there to be more of your so-called "real" sex and less XC2 garbage.

Re-quoted and points separated for your convenience. Unless that was supposed to be an implicit assertion that "objectification is bad" is not compelling, for the reasons above and now below stated, in which case I'd love for you to go into more detail.
  • The post you were responding to didn't actually say anything specifically about wanting more scenes like that in games though.
  • Rather, the assertion was that if games are going to address sex, addressing sex should be more common than creeping on female characters in ways that promote sexual fantasy while simultaneously refusing to address sex itself. If you glorify women as worthy of sexual lust by creeping on them with the camera and then deny them actual impulse for and participation in sex, you're LITERALLY treating them, collectively, as an object. Like, that's part of where the term "objectification" comes from.
Hint: The core of the assertion is that the creepshots shouldn't be happening at all in general media because they're inherently disrespectful to women, not that sex should be everywhere.
 
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sharpforprez

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
735
You're right, I wouldn't. We're speaking hypotheticals here. Still, I wouldn't let a kid play XC2 either if I could help it. I'd rather they not learn that subverting consent and free agency of women is a-okay.
But is this actually what's going on or are you just dropping buzzwords? How many kids do you know playing these games? Have you gotten their feedback? Maybe that's how you interpret it due to some darker and subconscious reason? There are many questions to ask here.
Re-quoted and points separated for your convenience. Unless that was supposed to be an implicit assertion that "objectification is bad" is not compelling, for the reasons above and now below stated, in which case I'd love for you to go into more detail.

Hint: The core of the assertion is that the creepshots shouldn't be happening at all in general media because they're inherently disrespectful to women, not that sex should be everywhere.

None of these points ring off to me. It's a lot of strong verbiage but in the end your idea of "creepy" and what not are subjective and up for your interpretation. I can't even begin to address the second point when it's clear that's how you see the games through your eyes.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,288
To go back to mentioning anime recommendations, as long as we're mentioning anime:
xxxHolic
Witch Hunter Robin
Tatami Galaxy
Symphogear (series)
Serial Experiments Lain
Revolutionary Girl Utena
Little Witch Academia
Aria (series)
Ballroom e Youkoso (Welcome to the Ballroom)
Redline

Granted, most of these have some amount of pandering, still think they're great (nothing terribly egregious). Personal recommendation is always Aria. It's the most chill series.

Also, if you're going to watch Utena, be prepared to do some background reading. Every scene is a barrage of metaphors. It's not my personal favorite series, but it's easily one of, if not the, most complex show in all of anime.
 
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RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,513
I feel it's extremely naive to draw conclusions from one and apply them to the other. Sure, they may be related. Then again, they may be not. It is extremely irrational to assume they just are and let conclusions from one apply or even color the other, when one should simply be studying the other directly. Hell, even "sexualization in fiction affecting people" is far too broad a subject: for any kind of study, the field needs to be much more specific.

The broader the subject, the less that can be said and learned about it.

I'm not saying to apply conclusions from one to other without just study. I also don't think the brain is simple enough to pretend like we can silo topics and not learn or gain anything from potentially related studies.

Again this is best for another thread as it muddies the meaningful point of this thread. Last time I'll comment on this particular topic in this thread.
 

PtM

Banned
Dec 7, 2017
3,582
But is this actually what's going on or are you just dropping buzzwords? How many kids do you know playing these games? Have you gotten their feedback? Maybe that's how you interpret it due to some darker and subconscious reason? There are many questions to ask here.


None of these points ring off to me. It's a lot of strong verbiage but in the end your idea of "creepy" and what not are subjective and up for your interpretation. I can't even begin to address the second point when it's clear that's how you see the games through your eyes.
This is some gaslighting like talk. "Are we really sure that these sexual themes are there for people to look at them?"
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
But is this actually what's going on or are you just dropping buzzwords? How many kids do you know playing these games? Have you gotten their feedback? Maybe that's how you interpret it due to some darker and subconscious reason? There are many questions to ask here.
Buzzwords? They're normal vocabulary words that convey meaning. Can you just acknowledge their meaning without a transparent attempt to diminish them?

IDK, what to tell you. I mean how do you interpret panty shots and boob windows on sumbmisive female characters? I asure you my cognizance of it is totally conscious. I grew up consuming male patriarchal supporting media (along with being raised in manner that propagated some toxic masculinity) and ended up with less than flattering ideals about women as a young adult. I was a kid too once and I remeber the conversations revolving around sexy characters in games with other kids... That stuff just doesn't come out of nowhere.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
But is this actually what's going on or are you just dropping buzzwords? How many kids do you know playing these games? Have you gotten their feedback? Maybe that's how you interpret it due to some darker and subconscious reason? There are many questions to ask here.


None of these points ring off to me. It's a lot of strong verbiage but in the end your idea of "creepy" and what not are subjective and up for your interpretation. I can't even begin to address the second point when it's clear that's how you see the games through your eyes.
Right, which brings us to full, collective understanding of the initial purpose of the thread.

Namely, in a community that's heavily dominated by men, to serve as a place for women to explain to those men why they criticize sexualized character designs in video games. Because the way that many women (and some men) see these games in their eyes differs on a fundamental level from how a subset of straight men (and some women) who are the target of the sexual pandering in those games see them. And the OP understood that and felt it might be useful to shine a light on why she, specifically, took issue with the content.

Many women (and men) have since used the thread as a means to talk about what makes THEM uncomfortable about said games and gives them reason to feel the need to criticize them.

For the record, I fall into the target audience for that kind of pandering myself, so I actually don't (at least at first blush) see the games that way when they toss a sexualized woman at me. First I see a hot woman, then my brain jerks back and reminds me of the deeper societal implications with regard to the REASON the camera just slow panned up her ass to make sure I got a nice, full view. Personally, I can disassociate from it, enjoy it for what it is, and then critique it later. Some people can't. You will find that other gay women and straight men and others attracted to women have described a similar phenomenon, if you head back in the thread a ways.

This thread has become a thread about debate, as it often has a way of doing in cycles, but that's not what the initial purpose was. Rather, it was a platform from which Persephone could say "This is how I see these games through my eyes, just so you have some context next time you see me say bad things about them."

That people so very badly wanted to tell her she was wrong and we wound up here two months later is another story entirely.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
But is this actually what's going on or are you just dropping buzzwords? How many kids do you know playing these games? Have you gotten their feedback? Maybe that's how you interpret it due to some darker and subconscious reason? There are many questions to ask here.


None of these points ring off to me. It's a lot of strong verbiage but in the end your idea of "creepy" and what not are subjective and up for your interpretation. I can't even begin to address the second point when it's clear that's how you see the games through your eyes.
Do you think it's creepy for a dude to walk up to a woman and just stare at her boobs?

Because that's what the camera's doing in a lot of these kinds of situations. It ends up fetishizing boobs as an object, not a part of the body of a fellow human being. Of course, this alone doesn't cause problems, but when compounded by other games, mediums, and, in fact, real life people doing the same, either as a joke, or as a serious thing, it ends up legitimizing it in the minds of those who consume these things.

Compare that to two consenting adults fucking. That is probably inappropriate for young kids. But ultimately, it's not delivering a harmful message. It's just delivering a message too early fro it to be appropriately understood.

The other message, however, is harmful.

Now, if you DON'T think walking up to a woman and staring at her boobs (or, almost as bad, doing it on the sly so as not to be seen) is creepy, then hey, I guess... I guess that's you.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
Maybe that's how you interpret it due to some darker and subconscious reason? There are many questions to ask here.
I mean, if you want to be more direct, this year both Persona 5 and Nier directly featured upskirting girls without their consent. In Nier you were rewarded for it, in Persona I think it was played for laughs or waved aside.
I haven't played XC2, so I can't comment besides the images I've seen.

esserius
I like how anime has become the wholesome topic in this thread.
Again, I haven't seen much, but Serial Experiments Lain was awesome.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
I like how anime has become the wholesome topic in this thread.
Anime is extremely wholesome!

Except when it isn't.

When it isn't it's really, really not.
One of my most favs. :chefkiss:
I never finished it because they talked too fast and the subs hurt my brain even though I liked it a lot.

I was a pleb then. I should try again.

Televator
I like that specific wording choice re: subverting free agency because Xenoblade 2's character designs and sometimes camera teach you that it's a-ok on a pretty regular basis while the story is building up to an extremely dramatic crescendo about how that specific, exact thing is actually the opposite of a-ok.

One of the last spoken lines in the damn game is a grown ass man turning to the protagonist and telling him that he can't just tell his female partner she's not allowed to do something because he doesn't like it--that being a proper-ass adult is respecting her decision to do it, recognizing that it doesn't matter that he doesn't like it because she NEEDS to do it, and shutting the hell up and letting her do it.

It bothers me so deeply to consider how they let that happen.
 
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Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I never finished it because they talked too fast and the subs hurt my brain even though I liked it a lot.

I was a pleb then. I should try again.
Haha they do talk very fast. To be honest, after a while, I just kinda read what I could and let it wash over me. I like to imagine that's the intent, even though I know it wasn't created with subtitles in mind.

I actually want to rewatch it.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
I really want to emphatically recommend Houseki no Kuni. It might be slightly off-putting at first blush due to the fact that it's a CG anime (yes, really), but it's an extraordinarily well-executed CG anime with a cast of 100% genderless (like, literally, they have no concept of gender) gem people who are all shockingly endearing. The main character goes through a ton of character growth in the space of 12 episodes and it's chock full of philosophical musings on the nature of life and existence.

I really can't recommend it enough. I don't even need to put a caveat on that recommendation like I do with so many other series. Like, straight-up, just go watch it. You won't regret it.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,288
Anime is extremely wholesome!

Except when it isn't.

When it isn't it's really, really not.
lmao, yeah, this is a pretty accurate assessment. ;)

Even for all the awesome anime series recommended here, it's largely excluding the ever-expanding black hole of anime that is fan service shows.

I wish I had a list of video games that I could recommend as much but it's considerably more difficult. I really like Chrono Trigger and the Ogre Battle series. And then beyond that... *shrug* It's kind of difficult for games because the interactivity changes things a lot. And games don't typically do a great deal to control for player decisions.
 
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