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GenericForumName

Banned for suspected use of alt account
Banned
Nov 26, 2017
261
The user was warned for this post. Don't make disingenuous arguments to shut down criticism of sexualization in games. Don't equate criticism of fanservice to actual abuse.
Criticizing fanservice and then saying you don't want it banned is the same as verbally abusing a person for their clothes and then expect them to continue wearing them.

And in case of video games, where the consumer has all the power and the social media is capable of persuading masses, criticizing fanservice literally leads to less interest from devs in localization and development of such titles.

Some publishers now avoid releasing games in the west because of the abuse they receive for their games' content and have to resort to publishing their games in English in Asia to avoid controversy.



If this weren't the case, you'd just be wasting your time complaining on the internet ad nauseam. I guess you should be happy knowing that you're affecting the industry with your "harmless" posts.
 

Krauser Kat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,696
Criticizing fanservice and then saying you don't want it banned is the same as verbally abusing a person for their clothes and then expect them to continue wearing them.

And in case of video games, where the consumer has all the power and the social media is capable of persuading masses, criticizing fanservice literally leads to less interest from devs in localization and development of such titles.

Some publishers now avoid releasing games in the west because of the abuse they receive for their games' content and have to resort to publishing their games in English in Asia to avoid controversy.



If this weren't the case, you'd just be wasting your time complaining on the internet ad nauseam. I guess you should be happy knowing that you're affecting the industry with your "harmless" posts.


I dont get the theme of your post. are you saying its a bad thing fanservice is coming out less and less.

LOL "abuse" its not like they are getting death threats for showing cleavage, those are for the women who have publicly talked about the affect fan service has on them.
 

GenericForumName

Banned for suspected use of alt account
Banned
Nov 26, 2017
261
I dont get the theme of your post. are you saying its a bad thing fanservice is coming out less and less.

I am unhappy with that, yes. I'm also tired of people trying to deflect criticism from themselves by saying that they are just exercising creative writing on the topic, that they don't want to have less of what they are criticizing. It's bullshit.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
I dont get the theme of your post. are you saying its a bad thing fanservice is coming out less and less.

LOL "abuse" its not like they are getting death threats for showing cleavage, those are for the women who have publicly talked about the affect fan service has on them.

I think less fan service is a bad thing, yes

Why can't I play doa extreme 3 on my PS4 without importing?

They brought the last 2 games over
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
Merry Holidays from Nintendo and their new iconic character everyone:


Ugh... Beyond giant boobs and revealing outfits, the trend of modeling clothes that are tightly fitted on female characters might be what grosses me out the most. It's already gross enough that female breasts are given their own physics for no apparent reason. It's another thing entirely when someone has to painstakingly model a character model with clothes that dig into their minimal body fat.

Count point: If a designer is so obsessed with the human body that they want to make characters "fleshy", I honestly don't have a problem with it. It's just that it only seems to apply to female characters whereas men are always chiseled out of stone.
 

Senjy89

Member
Oct 25, 2017
49
ome publishers now avoid releasing games in the west because of the abuse they receive for their games' content

First , citation needed.

If this weren't the case, you'd just be wasting your time complaining on the internet ad nauseam. I guess you should be happy knowing that you're affecting the industry with your "harmless" posts.

Second , yes I'm quite happy that the industry is opening up to the concept of catering to people who previously were left either forgotten or badly represented.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
Dunnoh, perhaps most females prefer personality and abstract traits in service over visual traits? How is porn consumption male vs female audience vs say romance novels male vs female audience?

Sex toy wise it seems sex dolls haven't caught on that much with females, and they're less likely to favor robots than males.



Media influences. But to a point. It isnt going to cause you to want a limbless mustache bearing morbidly obese deformed lady over an attractive athletic woman. No matter what those culture supremacists tell you it ain't happening

Most people violent media isn't going to cause them to go out on a shooting rampage or to violently hit a romantic partner.

I do not believe media influences in a negative manner on a large enough scale to require change, neither violence nor sexualization

Just like Doom isn't going to make 99.9 percent of people go harm others, I don't believe 99.9 percent of normal people are going to grow up seeing skimpy and objectified female designs and lack respect for women. I just don't see it

I mean I've grown up through the worst era for it, during my most formative years, as a preteen and teen

Have you seen how women are shown in most 90s gaming magazines and advertisements? The industry has made huge strides Imo for better representation
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
The people who like sexually objectifying games are the real victims here. Won't you please think of all the trashy fanservice they're missing out on? *rolls eyes*
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
I think gratutious violence should be banned in entertainment across the board, honestly. Like the studies you've posted StonedCrows, there's nothing redeeming about sensationalizing and profitting off of extreme violent imagery. Even though The Last of Us 2 gets a lot of things right, the gratuitously violent images on display in the recent trailer is not pleasantly tactful nor tasteful

So you don't believe mortal Kombat should exist?
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
The people who like sexually objectifying games are the real victims here. Won't you please think of all the trashy fanservice they're missing out on? *rolls eyes*

No one was claiming to be a victim

But if you want your opinion on the matter you have to accept others have different ones

Or Is your thought that everyone should just feel the same way you do about everything?
 

admiraltaftbar

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Dec 9, 2017
1,889
I think less fan service is a bad thing, yes

Why can't I play doa extreme 3 on my PS4 without importing?

They brought the last 2 games over

Because the other two were terrible games that got terrible scores here in the west. DoA and all it's absurd costumes get released here which I highly doubt would happen if the developers felt scared of releasing games in the west (seriously they don't).
 

Krauser Kat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,696
I am unhappy with that, yes. I'm also tired of people trying to deflect criticism from themselves by saying that they are just exercising creative writing on the topic, that they don't want to have less of what they are criticizing. It's bullshit.

HAHAHAHA.

Come back to earth for a second where sexualization of females is no where near parity with males. We are just looking for equality, and equal representation so the hobby can be more inclusive to women. The scale is so fucked at the moment. The world literally needs less fan service, and you are seeing even cutting in half (still not even close to equality) as CENSORSHIP, when its not.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
No one was claiming to be a victim

But if you want your opinion on the matter you have to accept others have different ones

Or Is your thought that everyone should just feel the same way you do about everything?

Pretending that you have it so hard because a couple of games that treat women like sex objects, in a sea of so many other games that treat women like sex objects, don't make it over is acting like a victim, yes. You're entitled to your opinion. That doesn't mean you won't face opposition or criticism for it.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
You realise people can tell video games and reality apart? I'm sure MOST men don't see you as a walking hole. :)

You realize video games are largely made by men, and as such are a representation of men's wishes and what they want to see? You realize characters like Quiet or Cindy represent men's desires to have sexualized women everywhere, even when it makes no fucking sense for them to be there?

Also, are you a woman? Because if you aren't maybe don't talk about what it feels like to be one.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
Pretending that you have it so hard because a couple of games that treat women like sex objects, in a sea of so many other games that treat women like sex objects, don't make it over is acting like a victim, yes. You're entitled to your opinion. That doesn't mean you won't face opposition or criticism for it.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think I was making THAT big a deal out of the one game

I vocalized it was a bummer because I enjoyed doa xbv 1 and 2 yes, but I don't think I was acting like a victim or anything

If it came across that way, I didn't intend it to. I will always acknowledge my opinions are birthed from the views or a straight white male which I'm well aware this industry caters to
 

djshauny1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
887
You realize video games are largely made by men, and as such are a representation of men's wishes and what they want to see? You realize characters like Quiet or Cindy represent men's desires to have sexualized women everywhere, even when it makes no fucking sense for them to be there?

Also, are you a woman? Because if you aren't maybe don't talk about what it feels like to be one.
Where did he say how it feels to be a woman? Because I dont see that anywhere in his post.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
I understand what you are saying, but I don't think I was making THAT big a deal out of the one game

I vocalized it was a bummer because I enjoyed doa xbv 1 and 2 yes, but I don't think I was acting like a victim or anything

If it came across that way, I didn't intend it to. I will always acknowledge my opinions are birthed from the views or a straight white male which I'm well aware this industry caters to

That post wasn't just directed at you. It was also directed at GenericForumName who was acting like a huge victim, all because we dared to criticise games that constantly depict women in a degrading and sexist manner. There have been a number of 'Men are the REAL victims of sexism' type posts in this thread, so I can't say I'm really surprised.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I think less fan service is a bad thing, yes

Why can't I play doa extreme 3 on my PS4 without importing?

They brought the last 2 games over

Because after the last two games, they decided that not enough people bought their games. Before any nonsense about feminism scaring away Koei Tecmo, KT said in plain language that the series was not successful enough to justify localizing the third game.

KT's non-localization has nothing to do with people hating it and everything to do with no one caring about it.
 

LuckyChamCham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,223
The user was banned for amassing multiple warnings and this post (48 hours). Sexual harassment isn't a geographical issue, and ignoring problems doesn't solve them. Argue in good faith, or don't participate in discussions you clearly don't care about.
Then you haven't been paying attention to recent events. #MeToo ring a bell?
Bruh, I'm not American and all the sexual harassment going on has nothing to do with me or video games.
You realize video games are largely made by men, and as such are a representation of men's wishes and what they want to see? You realize characters like Quiet or Cindy represent men's desires to have sexualized women everywhere, even when it makes no fucking sense for them to be there?

Also, are you a woman? Because if you aren't maybe don't talk about what it feels like to be one.
I'm not a woman, and the devs are allowed to create whatever they want and you're free to criticise it, that's your problem. But instead of arguing about something you don't like constantly expecting it to just change out of nowhere, how about you just ignore it instead and play something you don't find offensive. Also you don't represent all women even if you are one, just saying.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
Bruh, I'm not American and all the sexual harassment going on has nothing to do with me or video games.

I'm not a woman, and the devs are allowed to create whatever they want and you're free to criticise it, that's your problem. But instead of arguing about something you don't like constantly expecting it to just change out of nowhere, how about you just ignore it instead and play something you don't find offensive. Also you don't represent all women even if you are one, just saying.

- "What's the problem anyway? It's just fiction/video games/etc.". The "problem" has been explained in detail across the whole thread. You might not want to read the whole thread, and that's fine -- but in that case, just don't reply.
- "Just vote with your wallet/play other games". It's not that simple, for reasons explained in the thread, and it's also dismissive.
- "You don't speak for all women." Obviously not. But plenty of women have spoken in the thread. And funnily enough, they are almost all of the same mind as the OP. The only people complaining about the title so far have been men. Funny huh?

You didn't read the mod edit in the OP, did you?
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Bruh, I'm not American and all the sexual harassment going on has nothing to do with me or video games.

I'm not a woman, and the devs are allowed to create whatever they want and you're free to criticise it, that's your problem. But instead of arguing about something you don't like constantly expecting it to just change out of nowhere, how about you just ignore it instead and play something you don't find offensive. Also you don't represent all women even if you are one, just saying.

This post is disgusting. Sexual harassment doesn't happen only in America, #metoo isn't just about Americans, SEXUAL HARASSMENT ABSOLUTELY HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOU AND WITH EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS PLANET, and the rest of your post is ignorant and dismissive.
Educate yourself before you dare speak about women's issues.
 

Yopis

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,767
East Coast
Then you haven't been paying attention to recent events. #MeToo ring a bell?


Female teachers sleeping with underage boys is a thing also. Seems to be a power issue. People in power without checks will abuse others without power.

Not strictly a single gender or race issue imo. Both ways are horrible and should be called out.

Also the argument everything needs to be realistic is odd.

People make fiction and stick closely as they want to actual reality.

In one game 10 year old kid can fight and beat up grown men. In another, a girl can flip around in heels. In first last of us you only fought male human enemies. That makes no sense in world gone to hell scenario. None of those are realistic

Content creators pick and choose all the time. Also nothing wrong with calling out what you want, just my thoughts.
 

Llyrwenne

Hopes and Dreams SAVE the World
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,209
Bruh, I'm not American and all the sexual harassment going on has nothing to do with me or video games.

I'm not a woman, and the devs are allowed to create whatever they want and you're free to criticise it, that's your problem. But instead of arguing about something you don't like constantly expecting it to just change out of nowhere, how about you just ignore it instead and play something you don't find offensive. Also you don't represent all women even if you are one, just saying.
Since you are clearly not interested in having discussions about social issues and very clearly did not follow the thread or read the mod edit in the original post, I would very much like to suggest that you take your own advice and steer clear of threads relating to social/political issues in games.
 

LuckyChamCham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,223
- "What's the problem anyway? It's just fiction/video games/etc.". The "problem" has been explained in detail across the whole thread. You might not want to read the whole thread, and that's fine -- but in that case, just don't reply.
- "Just vote with your wallet/play other games". It's not that simple, for reasons explained in the thread, and it's also dismissive.
- "You don't speak for all women." Obviously not. But plenty of women have spoken in the thread. And funnily enough, they are almost all of the same mind as the OP. The only people complaining about the title so far have been men. Funny huh?

You didn't read the mod edit in the OP, did you?
Okay sure, was just sharing my opinion, do whatever you want to do.
This post is disgusting. Sexual harassment doesn't happen only in America, #metoo isn't just about Americans, SEXUAL HARASSMENT ABSOLUTELY HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOU AND WITH EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS PLANET, and the rest of your post is ignorant and dismissive.
Educate yourself before you dare speak about women's issues.
Disgusting? Okay. I'm not the cause for the sexual harassment and neither are video games. Or am I somehow now being blamed for what's happening?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
I'm not a woman, and the devs are allowed to create whatever they want and you're free to criticise it, that's your problem. But instead of arguing about something you don't like constantly expecting it to just change out of nowhere, how about you just ignore it instead and play something you don't find offensive. Also you don't represent all women even if you are one, just saying.

Dang, that's not an ironic post, right?
 

A.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,332
Disgusting? Okay. I'm not the cause for the sexual harassment and neither are video games. Or am I somehow now being blamed for what's happening?
No one is really arguing that games cause that. It's more that media like video games can reinforce ideas of how people view women. If you view women constantly objectified in media it can have an effect of how you view women even if you don't think it is.
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,533
Bruh, I'm not American and all the sexual harassment going on has nothing to do with me or video games.

MeToo isn't just an American thing as sexual harassment sadly happens around the world.

With that said I have no idea why MeToo was even brought up.

"Most men see women only as walking holes" because they enjoy fanservice in games is pretty bad and generalizing to begin with but using MeToo as proof of this argument on top of it is kind of baffling.
 
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LuckyChamCham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,223
Dang, that's not an ironic post, right?
I've never been personally offended by a videogame enough to not play it.
Sexual harassment and abuse isn't something that happens just in the US. You not being American has nothing to do with it.
I meant what is going on in hollywood. That's American right? Either way I'm just wondering what that has to with video games in any way. Unless all the people who are harassing others are doing so because of video games?
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I am baffled, just absolutely shocked, that someone who came into this thread to tell women to shut up and stop complaining doesn't know what #metoo was about.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I've never been personally offended by a videogame enough to not play it.

I meant what is going on in hollywood. That's American right? Either way I'm just wondering what that has to with video games in any way. Unless all the people who are harassing others are doing so because of video games?

MeToo isn't just Hollywood though.

Also, the issue is that the video game industry - both for people in the industry and for players - has a number of people who are hostile to women. Stuff like GamerGate doesn't happen without people ready and willing to elevate it.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
Female teachers sleeping with underage boys is a thing also. Seems to be a power issue. People in power without checks will abuse others without power.

Not strictly a single gender or race issue imo. Both ways are horrible and should be called out.

Also the argument everything needs to be realistic is odd.

People make fiction and stick closely as they want to actual reality.

In one game 10 year old kid can fight and beat up grown men. In another, a girl can flip around in heels. In first last of us you only fought male human enemies. That makes no sense in world gone to hell scenario. None of those are realistic

Content creators pick and choose all the time. Also nothing wrong with calling out what you want, just my thoughts.

Are you trying to imply that women and men face sexual harassment or abuse at the same rate? Women face sexual harassment all the time. Even in situations where the person doesn't have authority over them. We get harassed just walking down the street. Of course sexually harassing men is wrong, no one argued otherwise. That's not what this thread is about, though. It's a critique about the constant sexual objectification we see when it comes to female characters in this medium.

Also, the 'it's a fantasy world' argument is weak. Why is it that in these fantasy worlds, men are almost always dressed in a way that makes sense within that universe, and if they're wearing armour, it looks like it would actually protect them? And more often than not, the women in these worlds are wearing high heels even though it's impractical and uncomfortable for the situation (jumping, kicking, running), and are not wearing armour that would protect them in the same manner as the men? Oh, right. It's because it has nothing to do with it being fantasy and everything to do with making sure that female characters look sexy and attractive at all times, because that's the primary focus in their design, and the primary focus in them being there at all. To be eye candy.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I quoted you as an anchor into that specific sub-thread, I wasn't addressing you alone, sorry.

OK then, let me rephrase. At no point did anyone claim they didn't want less of it, just so we're clear on your pathetic attempt at a gotcha.

And I did say calling censorship was reductionist, okay?

Indeed, in the same breath that you implied that it's not possible to "wanting less of something" without "advocating for its ban".

Yes, my point is to not argue in extremes.

You're not fooling anyone that that was your original point, but feel free to change it if you feel that such an applause light platitudeis an improvement.
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
I've never been personally offended by a videogame enough to not play it.

I meant what is going on in hollywood. That's American right? Either way I'm just wondering what that has to with video games in any way. Unless all the people who are harassing others are doing so because of video games?
Women outside of America have been using the #Metoo and it has been used by women in all industries, not just Hollywood. Women in the video game industry have used it that have been harassed by their coworkers. I believe someone linked studies in here earlier showing that misogynistic portrayals of women in video games do reaffirm some negative views towards women in real life.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
I mean this forum literally only exists because #metoo inspired a woman to speak up about the sexual misconduct of the owner of NeoGAF.

It was never just about Hollywood.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Criticizing fanservice and then saying you don't want it banned is the same as verbally abusing a person for their clothes and then expect them to continue wearing them.

Criticising fanservice and then saying you don't want it banned is the same as criticising someones' clothes and then saying you don't want them banned. Which is what most normal people would do, but of course that wouldn't fit your narrative, would it?
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
Dammit, he was banned. I just spent way too long dredging up these posts so I'm going to post this anyway so I can link back to IT instead of having to find them again next time this comes up. Because it will.

I mean, since I've been more or less the most active poster on the subject of "no actually we don't want to take the things you like away" and am thus the Biggest Liar of Them All per your initial assertion, you're welcome to dredge up the posts I've made on the subject and either inquire about my points or refute what I've said to prove as much. As of right now you haven't really joined the discussion, but there are a book's worth of posts that I'm sure you might find merit in picking apart to prove that I actually hate you and everything you like and want it to be illegal, if that's really where you want to go with this.

I'll link to a few to get you started.

Like I said, happy to engage.
I don't think these two things are that contradictory, honestly.

Sexism as we're discussing it here is a thing that exists in context of the society that we've built, as a set of problems in representation and treatment that have been and continue to be ingrained in how we do things. Sexism is the fact that an unsettlingly large majority of games feature anything from male gaze in the camerawork or disproportionately sexualized designs for women, to even outright soft pornography. This can render attempting to play games at all to walking through a minefield. Especially if you particularly like genres that are prone to it, but most egregiously even if you exclusively play blockbusters that are ostensibly meant for the largest possible target audience.

Sexism, as a societal problem, isn't the inherent existence of individual products that pander to you as someone attracted to women, but the overall market trends that create that minefield. It's a basic biological fact that humans tend to like sex stuff in one way or another, and there should be no shame in that. Plenty of women consume or are involved in the production of stuff like this. You shouldn't feel shame for the fact that the current market caters to you any more than a white man in the western world should spend every day of his life feeling crushing self-disgust for having been born in a position of societal privilege. That's not what most people are looking for, here, because it's ultimately unproductive anyway.

Rather, the recognition that that minefield is a problem and fighting to clean up the issue is what people are looking for.

The things you like wouldn't, inherently, be a problem if they were mirrors of a suitable alternative for female [edit: rather, male-attracted] demographics in niches where they belong, and weren't so pervasive in mainstream-targeted products. This isn't a fight to make titillating games disappear entirely, it's a fight to make developers realize that there's a time and a place for titillation and Literally All the Time and Everywhere isn't that time and place. More than with wallets, it's a battle fought through discourse and exhausting, exhausting circular debate against people that you have to continuously assume are making the same arguments over and over in good faith even though sometimes they aren't.

An extra--heck a few thousand extra--copies of a niche titillating game being sold isn't going to do much if any harm to lasting change. Like the things you like, recognize and be willing to talk about it when they're problematic. Ask questions like the one I'm responding to now, because it means you're being introspective and that's important to a healthy psychological outlook.

Perhaps most importantly, help out by tagging in when people are ready to collapse on the death-march of circuitous absurdity that is this thread and those like it. These are the things you can do to help, and things you already do as far as I can see.

I'd like to think that's a relatively reasonable stance, anyway. I like a lot of trashy stuff too so maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better. I'm not an authority on this kind of thing.
Gonna tackle this from a few different angles.

I don't tend to like things in the mainstream because of their problematic aspects, so I don't really think it would bother me if something in, for instance, a comic I was reading was changed because the artist reacted to criticism any more than it bothers me to change things in reaction to criticism that I agree with, or if a game was changed pre-release due to criticism. If it changed in a way that made it less enjoyable for me I'd stop reading it or not play it and move on to something else. There's too much quality media for any single human to consume as-is, so it's not like I'd suddenly run out of stuff to do in my spare time. Note that the only stuff that gets prominent, enduring criticism in this thread consistently is stuff that's mass marketed and then does things to alienate women--Blockbusters, mass market games, instances where entire genres are more or less walled off unless you're okay with extreme sexualization. Most people don't want to get rid of media that panders to horny people entirely, they just want to not be slapped in the face by horny every time they boot up a JRPG or fighting game.

As far as stuff that DOES make it a part of its DNA to pander to horny people, I can't realistically see it going anywhere, so it's difficult to answer that question. Even if we came together as a collective one world government and immediately banned all titillation entirely it'd just move underground, it's too important to the human condition. I don't want to see it go anywhere, and I don't think it ever will.

I just want people (who aren't me, I'm fine because I'm the target of most of the pandering media does, being attracted to women) to be able to play the games I like where pandering to horny people isn't a part of its DNA but the stuff is there anyway, without having to put up with discomfort to do so. Or for there to at least be options that they can take, games within genres they can play, or configurations they can make to not have to deal with it. That's the bare minimum, and we aren't even fully there yet.

If someone were to approach me and tell me that something I was drawing or painting or writing or whatever was making them uncomfortable and it wasn't part of the core DNA of what I was doing, I'd talk to them and if they could even remotely provide any basis for it I'd generally err on the side of concession and just change it most of the time. Sometimes things are non-negotiable, but I really think that people hold way too much reverence for the creative process in some contexts, in the sense that they feel like every single decision made in the creation of a creative work is completely non-negotiable as part of an artistic vision. Reality is that maybe I'm super attached to certain elements of a work and others I couldn't care less about changing.


You can like literally anything you want to like and should never feel bad about it unless it's illegal or tangibly harming and killing people.

The issue people generally want to bring attention to is that it can be extremely, extremely difficult to find games without content that bothers you, especially in certain genres, as a woman or person not attracted to women who's even remotely conscious of or sensitive to things like camera work and character design intended for titillation of people attracted to women.

Which is to say, there's generally complete agreement with "different strokes for different folks," but while women make up somewhere in the vicinity of half of the gaming audience, there's an extreme difference in the total number of strokes that are either directly aimed at them, or at least aimed at general audiences. They're getting more strokes now, but there's still a stroke disparity worth talking about.

The thing is, the only way that people who don't have the technical and creative skill and financial capital to make their own games can do is talk about what we already have and what bothers us in it for the future reference. It's the only realistic route we have to change things.

Claims that you one doesn't like specific things in media have a lot less punch when one can't point to something that actually exists and say "Right, stuff like that. That's what's making me uncomfortable," but that doesn't necessarily mean that we think that game we're pointing at needs to go away or even change, it's just what we have in front of us to criticize, the same way that we can point at things we like and say "Yes, we want more things like this," and also do that.
And also the page and change-ish discussion with Valkyr1983 that carried on after the above. It was a good talk.
I can only speak for myself, but I certainly don't want to take things I like away as a concept (I am literally typing this while alt-tabbed out of a visual novel, I'm pretty close to peak weeb in the media I consume) but I do think it's important that one be both self-aware and aware of the impact that the media you consume can have on other people--it's part of general critical discourse and it's usually healthy to be critical of the stuff you enjoy. I've watched, from a position of mostly unchanging enjoyment, as JRPGs genre-wide have shifted toward pandering almost exclusively to 20-30-something male otaku and teenage boys. I've watched Atelier, which once targeted at a primary demographic of women, begin targeting the male otaku market for supplementary income with gradually increasing intensity over the years. I've watched as friends struggle through the changes that ongoing series make, and eventually fall out of love with them because the content that makes them uncomfortable starts to eclipse the things they enjoy.

I think that's a shame, and something very much worthy of criticism. Most women are not asking to be able to play Senran Kagura without being uncomfortable if they don't fall into the target zone--they're not asking to play Dead or Alive, either. They're looking at entire genres that have increasingly alienated them over time and lamenting that things that they liked do not want them anymore. People do not want to take things you like away in the context that they don't want them to exist at all, but they do tend to wish that they could actually play reasonably successful, critically acclaimed JRPGs and Fighting Games without being slapped in the face periodically. I don't think that's an unfair ask.

I can't walk two steps without tripping over anime tits, and I don't need them in everything I consume. I'd rather the stuff I like that isn't fully contingent on them be enjoyed by the largest possible audience, because I don't need literally every work of media I consume to pander to me sexually, and as Japanese media is concerned very nearly ALL OF THEM try to. AAA western games have unquestionably gotten way, way better over the course of the last decade, though they're not all the way home yet. But, like, it is NOT EASY to be a woman who likes JRPGs and doesn't want tits shoved in her face on a regular basis right now. You only can play like 20% of the genre's output at that point. And as the western market is concerned JRPGs are one of the most popular genres among female players last I checked, so it's a pretty huge global market disconnect.

This is a pretty accurate representation of my headspace too. For my part for a couple years after I "woke up" to this kind of shit I wasn't able to enjoy trashy fanservicey stuff, but I eventually let myself sink back down into desensitization enough to return to enjoying my garbage while also criticizing media trends. I feel like it's been a more enjoyable place to be mentally since making that transition, but it'd be difficult to speak to whether it's a healthier place to be or not--to just be able to open with a "Jesus Christ, guys" and possibly a facepalm, and then let it go until I'm reflecting on the work later.

Also, for good measure, because it wasn't me but dammit it's a good post.
Y'know, I don't really like clowns. They creep me the fuck out. But I don't have a problem with clown lovers. I don't have a problem with circuses, clown clubs, video games or movies about clowns, clown focused magazines with clown center folds. Those things are clearly marked as products aimed at the clown audience, for clown lovers. If you like yourself some clown action, it's easy to walk into a store and grab your product, and it's easy for me to say hell naw and stay the fuck away from it. But imagine a world...where 80% to 90% or some other way too high a number of media...had clowns in it.

Imagine looking through games at your preferred game retailer and a game figuratively speaks to you – Hey! you like sci-fi?

Yeah I do.

- You like explorin' expansive alien landscapes of eye melting beauty?

You bet!

- You like driving around giantass transforming mechs?

Hell yeah!

- Then this game is pertinent to your interests!

So you get home with your latest purchase and everything seems great then first boss and fucking clown out of no where. Why is this boss a clown?! This game has shit to do with clowns. It's just sorta' there so whatever you send it packing and the game goes back to normal...until you meet the alien species populated entirely by mimes. Why are they mimes? It doesn't make any god damn sense but there they are. Then there's the clown themed costumes and that random clown in a cut scene that ruins the mood and drags you out of the game's immersion cause you can't stop staring at its giant jiggling balloons, and you aren't even into clowns but it's just so fucking distracting!

So fuck this game, play another. So you're blazing a trail of death and destruction through some bald guy shooter, taking out the terroristnazicommies when the elite badguy squad shows up and it's clowns. They come at you juggling their balls and making faces and the camera can't seem to stay out of their back pockets, making sure you get a real good close up of their polka dots and squeaky noses and why the fuck are they clowns? What do they add to this game? Who bought this game for the clowns? There are so many better choices for clown lovers that focus on clowning. Nobody bought this for the off chance of clowns yet here they are.

So fuck that game too but as you continue your search you steadily get this sinking suspicion that you can't escape. Games about clowns aimed at the clown loving audience aren't enough. Clowns are everywhere. Even those games you think are for you still dedicate a chunk of their content to the clown fandom. Doesn't matter if the game isn't really aimed at that audience, that audience might look in and so they must be pandered to. Doesn't matter if the clowns fit the theme, if they're out of place, the clowntaku are the ones that count most so fuck everybody else.





This isn't really about clowns.
Personally I think it'd be healthier to look inward and maybe find the realization that maybe it'd be okay to have a few less clowns sometimes--not none, mind--but we can do the other dance too.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
Women outside of America have been using the #Metoo and it has been used by women in all industries, not just Hollywood. Women in the video game industry have used it that have been harassed by their coworkers. I believe someone linked studies in here earlier showing that misogynistic portrayals of women in video games do reaffirm some negative views towards women in real life.

Can someone re post those studies? I'd like to see the information to back up these claims and will happily change my stance if they seem legitimate
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Dammit, he was banned.

Only for 48 hours, though.
BTW, looking at his post history (to see what he was banned for and how long), the most ironic thing is that it's nothing but attacks on people that critique socially regressive elements in games (fanservice, Catherine's controversy, etc.). It cracks me up so much how the same dudes crying about angry feminists and "outrage culture" are the very same ones that seem to spend their entire lives salty and butthurt about it. :D

Can someone re post those studies? I'd like to see the information to back up these claims and will happily change my stance if they seem legitimate
10837.jpg

Excuse me if that avatar doesn't exactly inspire a lot of faith about you not finding something to discredit or otherwise disbelieve any studies that don't align with your exact world view.
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,533
Women outside of America have been using the #Metoo and it has been used by women in all industries, not just Hollywood. Women in the video game industry have used it that have been harassed by their coworkers. I believe someone linked studies in here earlier showing that misogynistic portrayals of women in video games do reaffirm some negative views towards women in real life.

I mean you said it yourself reafirm those views. Anything will reafirm your views if you already have negative views towards women.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I mean you said it yourself reafirm those views. Anything will reafirm your views if you already have negative views towards women.

Everyone has positive and negative views about pretty much anything. If something reaffirms your negative views about something while not reinforcing (or, most likely, weakening) your positive views, I believe the result is clear.
 
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