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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Do you really believe that criticism of violence in videogames inevitably leads to / is equal to wanting to ban violent games?
Yeah. The bigger issue is that his claims were extremely dubious and his argument centered around the notion that games actively turn people into spree killing psychopaths and teach practical real world skills necessary to enact horrific violence. Once he was rightfully tossed aside because he was, well, crazy, a lot of people (clearly) took it as an indication not that games don't turn people into spree killing psychopaths (which they don't) but that they don't have any impact on aggression in any capacity for any duration or time frame (which they do) and that such a conclusion also extrapolates out to all other facets of media and influence it can have on society (which is wrong).
It has not been an uncommon argument in the eternal circle that is this thread that because Jack Thompson was wrong, we actually know that media has absolutely no impact on people that consume it, and thus should never be criticized in any capacity. Thank god society disagrees with this sentiment, because being a creator hinges heavily on dialogue and critique and we can't improve without it. Which is why artists engage in it. Heavily, and rigorously, as a huge component of our education. Art would be worthless if there was never any critical discourse about it, whether social or technical. That's a dystopia I don't want to live in.
On the topic of the figure, it's nice to see that they at least used the original design as the basis rather than the character model, with a more covered up back (for all it's worth) and smaller bust. It's a solid sculpt but I'm not a fan of the fact that she's got such a placid, blank smile on her face while she's clearly springing to action, and the disconnect between Pyra's actual character, the game's writing, and her design killed any appreciation I could ever have of it even from a Brain Off, Appreciate Trashy Things For What They Are perspective.
Morag when? And for the love of all that's good and holy don't put her in a swimsuit. There's a time and place, dammit.
Oof, doing Steam discovery queues. I notice myself cringing constantly with these games, I was just greeted by Fate/EXTELLA. This is getting so bad that I'm being very wary of everything with "anime aesthetic" even before seeing any ridiculous, over the top designs. What is even the point of having any clothes with these designs? They cover almost nothing, offer no functionality, just would seem like a hindrance to wear something like that. Why does she dress like this?
I am playing Doki Doki Literature Club and while I havent reached the point where things get tense, I wonder whether people who proposed it are sick to the head.
Ho man, look at her... shoes. So much detail, feels so good!
I've heard that Doki Doki Literature Club gets really interesting but honestly I refuse to look into it because I'm so fucking done with moe schoolgirl anime bullshit.
It'd lose a lot of the intended effect if you don't consume the kind of media it's riffing off, to be honest.
I'm glad that it's getting more people into the medium though, since it's a lot more diverse than it generally gets credit for from the outside. I'm sure the million plus people who downloaded it for the Low Low Price of "Free" won't all pursue things further (or make it past the superficial fluff if they do) but if even 0.5% of them manage to wander their way into something like The House in Fata Morgana (Now on Sale for 45% off on Steam! :^) ) it's worth praising DDLC for that alone.
Spoiled so as to keep non topical themes away form discussion.
The game does get interesting in ways that could be seen as direct commentary on gratuitous moe, but the game is unfortunately much too interesting in so many other ways that this becomes a dispersed reading of its content.
Maybe just watch Patrick Keplek playing this game on Waypoint instead.
Maybe just watch Patrick Keplek playing this game on Waypoint instead.
I dunno, I'd say it's worth trying. It's an interesting deconstruction. Not great or anything, but it works for what it is.
I feel like almost always, anyone who uses, "the logical conclusion" in a non-satirical way is probably just there to mess with you.
The thing is, I dislike moe schoolgirl shit so much that I can't handle it even when it's being "deconstructed" lmao. And I'll be honest, I'm pretty wary of "deconstructions" in general since more often than not they're just a cheap way for authors to have their cake and eat it too. Like, hey, I made some moe girls, but I'm totally deconstructing the trope so now people will think I'm smart and not one of those weirdos who jack off to anime schoolgirls!
(that said I don't know shit about the game so this criticism might not apply to it specifically!)
Hm. Well, I can promise you the moe schoolgirl shit that is there doesn't last for long. Still, I do agree that in the end DDLC does use its deconstruction rather cheaply. I think it tries and succeeds at being creepy but doesn't really have much to say, in the end.
It is perfectly possible to think some kinds of media may be harmful in determinate situations, and yet believe they should not be banned.
Case in point, most people in this thread believe sexism in games is harmful, but not everyone is asking for them to be banned. In general, I believe it's much better to let creators know the ways their work may be harmful and trust them with changing if they want, and that goes for both sexism and violence.
I have to disagree, the game was full on moe mode for quite a while, and I found it really hard to stomach, even knowing it was nearly parodical and that a twist was coming.
This is what I thought of the game:
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Maybe I should just play The House in Fata Morgana and skip DDLC in that case.
Was there a new thread going on about this topic, or do you just mean in general?
Either way, yea I find that's one of the more annoying arguments.
I thought it was more like a 50/50 split at most, but it's not that long and given that it's free I gave it a pass for a lot of the initial wonkiness. Admittedly, I was also spoiled on what it's about, even though for me it was by accident.
The saddest part of it all is that Hat22 is one of the most frequent posters in this thread, so they don't even have the "I just stumbled into this thread and didn't read any of it" excuse. I mean, it's fucking there in the OP:
- "Censorship is bad." Yes it is. But criticism isn't censorship. This is a strawman argument.
It becomes harder and harder to assume good faith arguing when someone keeps bringing up false arguments that are literally debunked right in the first post of a thread.
I saw it on another thread, but I mostly mean in general, yeah. OT, but I wish we could have a decent discussion about violence in video games, but I feel like that would be an even bigger mess than the one about female sexualization.
I was watching Game Grumps' walkthrough of Doki Doki Literature Club.
If you have watched the ending of the anime, School Days, this game has some similarities to the anime.
Since Atlus and Monolith garbage is still in the air; do you people remember the character art they used to promote their new upcoming projects:
(Yeah the second has essentially a metal bra but the character is miles apart from Pyra. So um yay?)
Does anyone think we will see better representation and designs for the heroines of their upcoming games or in the end they will fall back to their usual pandering ugly crap?
(Yeah the second has essentially a metal bra but the character is miles apart from Pyra. So um yay?)
Does anyone think we will see better representation and designs for the heroines of their upcoming games or in the end they will fall back to their usual pandering ugly crap?
I think some people used the latest Last of us trailer as a springboard to start the discussion, or atleast tried.
Difference is violence in video games does not harm anybody or target a specific group. Games have never been proven to cause violent behavior and enough studies have been done to lay the argument to rest.
Since Atlus and Monolith garbage is still in the air; do you people remember the character art they used to promote their new upcoming projects:
(Yeah the second has essentially a metal bra but the character is miles apart from Pyra. So um yay?)
Does anyone think we will see better representation and designs for the heroines of their upcoming games or in the end they will fall back to their usual pandering ugly crap?
Question of "ugly" aside there's probably going to be fanservice in the game. Most of their main designs tend to be mostly restrained. A large amount of their fan service comes from random scenes and bonus outfits.
That being said maybe there won't, but considering there newest trailer had a gag with the narrator accidentally turning to a picture of a naked woman in his book there's probably still going to be some sexual jokes.
For me, it's not about games directly causing violence, it's about the romanticism and glorification of violence across media in general. This definitely has a societal impact.
Compared to other forms of media, video games feature violence across almost every major genre, so it's particularly relevant to this conversation.
Glorification of violence is as old as history. Maybe it has an impact, but I see no reason to try to eliminate it because because you can't. It's a cultural thing and if it goes away it'll because of gradual shift in society not because the government demands it. You'd have better luck trying to convincing people to go vegan.
Yeah, this is pretty much my thinking. I think that Atlus, especially with the announcements of their "new" titles, is pretty much doubling down on their own tone-deafness.
The conversation is not about eliminating violence. *sigh*
You're going to have to more specific as to what you want. We've already got regulation.
I mean, it's worth discussing. I also don't think legacy is a good defense of anything. Stuff has changed a lot from where we were century ago, in terms of women rights, racial civil rights movements, LBGT progress. Those were immense societal changes. Fifty years from now we could be looking back on the way violence was presented today as barbaric.
Again, I'm not saying anything should be removed, but It's something that's interesting to talk about and I'm curious of the larger effect on society.
As a far I'm concerned, it doesn't matter how extreme fake violence is. As as long as it isn't hurting anyone I don't care. If a game were to ever cross a line for me, I simply wouldn't play it. And as long as we live in a free society I believe there should no limit to what is acceptable in a fictional setting.
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okay
I'm curious to see how today's media reacts to an upcoming game like Hatred but in first person + VR. I imagine that's only a year or two away.
We should probably drop this tangent though, as this thread is about women's representation.
I'm curious to see how today's media reacts to an upcoming game like Hatred but in first person + VR. I imagine that's only a year or two away.
We should probably drop this tangent though, as this thread is about women's representation.
Because a game targeting a minorities wouldn't be hurting anyone right?
Games also tend not to focus on unscrupulous violence. Violence is usually directed at the Nazis/zombies/*insert baddie* in general. Objectification on the other hand tends to be unscrupulous while targeting women regardless of moral alignment.
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the worst part is i thought they would pull a switcheroo with Mythra as at first shes assertive and strong, then she just turns into a tsundere trope
At least I can make a team of Nia, #4 and #5.
Since Atlus and Monolith garbage is still in the air; do you people remember the character art they used to promote their new upcoming projects:
(Yeah the second has essentially a metal bra but the character is miles apart from Pyra. So um yay?)
Does anyone think we will see better representation and designs for the heroines of their upcoming games or in the end they will fall back to their usual pandering ugly crap?
In Monoliths case i feel theyre trying to create two paths, they want more of the japanese audience so they went that route that they did with XC2. At the same time, I THINK their biggest audience is western so theyll create a series more geared towards us
Wait, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me/implying.
I'd consider a game that targets minorities to be worth discussing, or criticizing, depending on the content.
A lot of these discussion are heavily influenced by your stance on the proposition that media significantly influences society.
Once you take that position, then suddenly women being presented as dehumanized sex objects constantly in the media likely becomes a net negative. Same with representing vulnerable groups in society with negative stereotypes, etc. Then the jump to being concerned/interested in the glorification of violence doesn't seem that far fetched.
That is a valid distinction.
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But violence!
I don't see a trend of games that were previously not overly violent getting overly violent. People are okay with violent games, and also with games with sexual elements. What many people complain about (that's me!) is suddenly many games or even entire genres cranking up the sexual pandering to the max to the point that it's difficult or impossible to avoid it short of quitting your all time favourite series / genres.
I don't see a trend of games that were previously not overly violent getting overly violent. People are okay with violent games, and also with games with sexual elements. What many people complain about (that's me!) is suddenly many games or even entire genres cranking up the sexual pandering to the max to the point that it's difficult or impossible to avoid it short of quitting your all time favourite series / genres.
I'm so glad I found this thread. I keep seeing NieR: Automata on these "Best of 2017" lists and I just silently remind myself that I can't really take it seriously because of how it sexualizes 2B. Like it seems like everyone else can enjoy the game but me because of this. And it's a bit... creepy imo? Like the casual dehumanization of women can be ignored because the rest of the game is supposedly so good.
I don't think a lot of people "ignore" 2B's design. Quite the opposite. It comes up quite a lot it various "designs you love" type threads.
But yes in some cases, some people may find a game good enough that they feel they can overlook questionable elements. I admit I've done that a few times.
Well if helps you sleep better at night, the design of 2B draws upon some powerful purposeful iconography
-subservient maids
-medieval executioners
-a "see no evil" blindfold (with their support team donning a similar "speak no evil" accessory)
-extreme gender performativity for genderless robots, in a game with clear LGBT overtones
Perhaps most of all (late game spoilers),
it uses those designs to establish that there's a HUGE significance for when the fashion for the heroic android army goes from this:
to this:
to this:
And not to mention that the design for all the 'male' robots in the game are absolutely rife with their own significant degree of fan service and male nudity.
This is perhaps one of the greatest recent examples in gaming where the purposeful tone of the character design has a lot to say about the characters and world.
As I said before, I'm not against ultra violent games that don't target a specific group. A game like that would. You of course must have nuisance, I'm not going to upset by a game that kills both men and women, but I'm probably would be if you only kill women and even then context will matter to me. Story and location will influence the types of enemies you face.
This came up before in the thread, but I don't think it's much of an excuse when the actual hentai games that are supposed to be "the roots" are actually much more restrained in their character design.
[when a porn game's design is more wholesome than your Nintendo RPG's]
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Just to clarify, I'm not really against ultra violent games either, I play a lot of them. I just don't want to discount the idea that they are harmful.
Anyways, I think most people probably agree with you on this.
Also, wait does Hatred target minorities, I haven't played it. Was that what you were implying?
I think it's unfortunate that those discussions are often buried or rarely show up in reviews or articles about the game. Although, it was good to see some reviewers criticizing the P5 gay panic event, the recent Catherine stuff and I believe at least one reviewer criticized Pyra in Xenoblade.
Relatedly, that game is actually very good outside of any issues of representation.
A robot with a human form. Come on you know what I mean.
The point I'm trying to make is how comes people are able to overlook questionable elements when it comes at the expense of women? How many people ignore games/media that sexualize men, but can suddenly find it in themselves to ignore when women are sexualized and just focus on the gameplay?
I'm just remembering that one Final Fantasy game with the hot Male main character. Before the game was even released, there's uproar and his sexiness is toned down. Yet this game is able to make it to the market and get all these awards despite it's sexiness. I dunno. I guess it's just how this world works, right?
Thing is nier automata does sexualise the men?
I'm even surprised to hear how many female game journalists seem to really like 9s even though he kind of a terrible person. Intentionally.
I'm even surprised to hear how many female game journalists seem to really like 9s even though he kind of a terrible person. Intentionally.
I mean I can't say as I'm all for equal opportunity fanservice. I thought the Final Fantasy thing was hypocritical and wished they kept the original design.
I think for some people it depends on context and how overwhelming it is. Some people just might have a higher tolerance for designs like 2B. Or like I said above might just like the design.
Like as you can no doubt guess I love Persona, but there are difinitly things the series could do better. It's just not enough to kill my enjoyment of the game.
Though don't get me wrong I absolutely hope the games improve.
Well if helps you sleep better at night, the design of 2B draws upon some powerful purposeful iconography
-subservient maids
-medieval executioners
-a "see no evil" blindfold (with their support team donning a similar "speak no evil" accessory)
-extreme gender performativity for genderless robots, in a game with clear LGBT overtones
Perhaps most of all (late game spoilers),
it uses those designs to establish that there's a HUGE significance for when the fashion for the heroic android army goes from this:
to this:
And not to mention that the design for all the 'male' robots in the game are absolutely rife with their own significant degree of fan service and male nudity.
This is perhaps one of the greatest recent examples in gaming where the purposeful tone of the character design has a lot to say about the characters and world.
Hm, this sounds interesting. Maybe I'll check it out after all (When the game's not 79.99$ CDN),.
Yeah that's fair! Sorry I hope it didn't come off as me attacking you. And things are getting much better imo.
That's what I'm saying. Every other artist for a Type Moon work other than Takeuchi was a mistake.This came up before in the thread, but I don't think it's much of an excuse when the actual hentai games that are supposed to be "the roots" are actually much more restrained in their character design.
[when a porn game's design is more wholesome than your Nintendo RPG's]
Edit: Another design from the "Eroge roots" that justify all these other sexualized designs apparently
Nah it's cool. I find this an interesting discussion and believe me I wish it could be that everyone can be comfortable playing games.
I haven't played it either, but from what I've seen you kill absolutely everyone in that game. This is why it was so controversial, as your targets are civilians. The trailer for the game caused some extra controversy though, by including brutal executions of POC and women. But even that trailer wasn't just minorities getting executed. But quite understandably considering how things are in the world, people reacted strongly. There were also claims for some of the devs being part of some Polish far right/neo-nazi groups, which ofcourse raised more suspicions. The CEO denied any endorsement of Nazis and also the accused people issued short statements.
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