Story is as anime as it can be, but hell if its not enjoyableThe more I see of Xenoblade 2 the more Bravely Default to Bravely Second seems really analogous.
Well except for the part where XC2 apparently has a pretty damn good story damnit
But Morag doesn't even look that much like a man. Her figure and her costume design still communicate "woman" reasonably effectively, or at least a sort of androgynous look. She's only easily and consistently mistaken for a man in a world/story where the reference point for "woman" is designs like, well, PyraNot sure but so far all I have seen about that topic is 1 HtH about how Tora believed Morag was man, and tmits pointed out he is the only one on that bote, and morag is just calm about it: "you know, Im a woman"...
Morag dressing as a guy is explained in game as political agenda, The Empire is a Father to son passes down, but the previous king had no son. So his brother raised Morag as a guy so she could take the throne. Till Neil was born and locked the throne position
. Morag tho never resented, or wanted the Throne after that even when Neil admits he is not fit for the roll and is Morag who should be sitting on that golden chair
The more I see of Xenoblade 2 the more Bravely Default to Bravely Second seems really analogous.
But Morag doesn't even look that much like a man. Her figure and her costume design still communicate "woman" reasonably effectively, or at least a sort of androgynous look. She's only easily and consistently mistaken for a man in a world/story where the reference point for "woman" is designs like, well, Pyra
It's worth noting that she's only "easily and consistently mistaken for a man" by a 13 year old shut-in geek who's routinely and actively called out for his misogyny , which is occasionally doubled up on by the party's resident troll just to get a rise out of her (which is played almost entirely for comedy and obviously that isn't great).But Morag doesn't even look that much like a man. Her figure and her costume design still communicate "woman" reasonably effectively, or at least a sort of androgynous look. She's only easily and consistently mistaken for a man in a world/story where the reference point for "woman" is designs like, well, Pyra
It's juvenile though. It's like a kid throwing a tantrum when you ask them to share their toys.
The more I see of Xenoblade 2 the more Bravely Default to Bravely Second seems really analogous.
Well except for the part where XC2 apparently has a pretty damn good story damnit
Not really even in game, as i said so far the only time I have seen that "are you not a man" is the joke on the bath house, and even Zeke mentions that maybe is cause Tora is a Noppon and how they are told men and women apart for how (noppon) dressBut Morag doesn't even look that much like a man. Her figure and her costume design still communicate "woman" reasonably effectively, or at least a sort of androgynous look. She's only easily and consistently mistaken for a man in a world/story where the reference point for "woman" is designs like, well, Pyra
They don't seem to have any problem coming out of their comfort zone to abuse and harass people who want to change their games.It slightly more nuanced than sharing toys. They way the characters ( yes, all of them . Even the male ones) behave in these games are designed with a sense of achieving this virtual relationship without the mess/intricacies of real ones. They are 'ideal' relationships without any baggage or conflict ( both with the males and females). To alter them ( by making them more representative of how real women behave ) is breaking the illusion for (some of) these people and taking away what they probably use as a comfort zone /safety vest.
To you and me , these virtual characters are nothing. We did not invest time in them the same way some of the other people may have. We also did not use them as surrogate friends / relationships when the real world was a bit too tough. So its easy to see the knee jerk reaction as juvenile.
Its really hard to come out of this comfort shell where nothing can go wrong and then go talk to real people and make real relationships which come with all the mess and baggage that these things come with.
It kind of sucks that all of the best JRPGs or JRPG-adjacent games of the last few years have issues with designs or relationship portrayal. Cold Steel's harems and "she's not really your sister", Nier's design, Persona 5's design and relationships, designs in Xenoblade. Like, which recent JRPGs are actually consistently good with regards to their female designs and relationships? Even dungeon crawlers that really shouldn't even have enough focus on characters to even get close to the line manage to regularly cross it.
I'd like to know this, too. Even Kiseki games are getting worse in that regard. Trails in the Sky had far, far superior female representation, and far more mature writing, compared to Trails of Cold Steel.
It's juvenile though. It's like a kid throwing a tantrum when you ask them to share their toys.
They don't seem to have any problem coming out of their comfort zone to abuse and harass people who want to change their games.
That's quite the Spoiler pal you should already have edited it. And yeah I know it's not as bad as with Pyra though.Poppi's.Hidden contentYou need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.
It kind of sucks that all of the best JRPGs or JRPG-adjacent games of the last few years have issues with designs or relationship portrayal. Cold Steel's harems and "she's not really your sister", Nier's design, Persona 5's design and relationships, designs in Xenoblade. Like, which recent JRPGs are actually consistently good with regards to their female designs and relationships? Even dungeon crawlers that really shouldn't even have enough focus on characters to even get close to the line manage to regularly cross it.
for better or worst, if companies are doing it is cause it sells. easy to market, etc etc etc. devs / publishers overall are adopting any idea that its easy to implement to increase sales while taking less risk given how much lately AA-AAA games cost to makeoverall genres (looking at you, fighting games) have ramped up the fanservice through the years
While it's lead female character design is questionable, I thought the diversity amidst the supporting female cast in Ys VIII was great. You get a badass elderly female gladiator, a practical female blacksmith (hey, FFXV! This is what a woman who works with her hands in a workshop might dress like!), a tailor in a nice dress, etc etc.
I think what I'm getting at is that it's a microcosm of a believable community in its variety of ages (from newborn up to practically retired) rather than an obsession with people of worth being very young and it's measure being their mastery of close-quarters-combat, magic etc. Even the ship captain was great, showing a leadership ability in prioritising where to camp and finding people and resources, rather than running around in a billowing long navy coat with a sabre which is what some games might choose.
That sense of a supporting cast that isn't just a list of increasing pretty young people with increasingly outlandish combat abilities made that world and that cast and their problems feel much more interesting than Cold Steel to me, where yet another martial arts master is just waiting to appear at any given moment. That kind of depiction of variety, rather than laser-focused on young people, sex appeal and combat, helps eventually lead towards better character design and stories for everyone, I think, which is perhaps a roundabout or minor point to make in this discussion, but I'd argue it's relevant to character design.
When I'm pushing 40 and have a young family of my own, I like seeing healthy depictions of the swathe of human relationships that don't just revolve around which adolescent is attracted to which other adolescent and which teenager with a stick can beat up which other slightly grumpier teen with a stick.
It's even not that I'm growing out of games at at younger people- there are plenty of games aimed at a younger audience that I love, particularly Monster Hunter Stories this year.
Only when shipwrecked, that's like totally different :DIsn't adol literally the ridiculously good young swordsman who can appear at any momentous occasion. :P
This is problematic for a lot of reasons, not least of which revolves around the fact that one of the few competent characters in the game is allowed to be so only because of (or in service to?) her purported masculinity.Not sure but so far all I have seen about that topic is 1 HtH about how Tora believed Morag was man, and tmits pointed out he is the only one on that bote, and morag is just calm about it: "you know, Im a woman"...
Morag dressing as a guy is explained in game as political agenda, The Empire is a Father to son passes down, but the previous king had no son. So his brother raised Morag as a guy so she could take the throne. Till Neil was born and locked the throne position
. Morag tho never resented, or wanted the Throne after that even when Neil admits he is not fit for the roll and is Morag who should be sitting on that golden chair
explain further..not least of which revolves around the fact that one of the few competent characters in the game is allowed to be so only because of (or in service to?) her purported masculinity
God I love Hidari. I wish studios would stop hiring them to do art for games in the middle of a series-wide backslide in quality of character writing. Their designs for the last Atelier trilogy and Echoes are among my favorite design work in the JRPG genre, ever. I don't quite understand why uniformly well written games are too much to ask for one of the best character artists currently working in Japan. :(Speaking of which, shout outs tomy wifethe blacksmith in Fire Emblem: Echoes.
Lovely example, yep! I do quite like the art style in Echoes.Speaking of which, shout outs tomy wifethe blacksmith in Fire Emblem: Echoes.
It's worth noting that she's only "easily and consistently mistaken for a man" by a 13 year old shut-in geek who's routinely and actively called out for his misogyny , which is occasionally doubled up on by the party's resident troll just to get a rise out of her (which is played almost entirely for comedy and obviously that isn't great).
I actually really liked the heart-to-heart where Morag gives Pandoria advice on cosmetics and skin care products, if that's the one you're referring to. It's a running theme with her character throughout the game that she's low-key super concerned about maintaining her aesthetic--it comes up in some post battle banter too. I thought it was one of the most interesting elements of her character, that being as badass and kept-up as she is is something that she actually works at and concerns herself pretty heavily with, but that she's also extremely conscious of hiding the fact that she has that superficial side to her because it's so counter to the aesthetic itself. It was a nice extra layer to a character that could've very easily gone down the more explicit "raised to be a man, hates femininity" path. (I'm not sure how much of it was loc, but Niall never actually says she was "raised to be a man," either.)
I actually really liked the heart-to-heart where Morag gives Pandoria advice on cosmetics and skin care products, if that's the one you're referring to. It's a running theme with her character throughout the game that she's low-key super concerned about maintaining her aesthetic--it comes up in some post battle banter too. I thought it was one of the most interesting elements of her character, that being as badass and kept-up as she is is something that she actually works at and concerns herself pretty heavily with, but that she's also extremely conscious of hiding the fact that she has that superficial side to her because it's so counter to the aesthetic itself. It was a nice extra layer to a character that could've very easily gone down the more explicit "raised to be a man, hates femininity" path. (I'm not sure how much of it was loc, but Niall never actually says she was "raised to be a man," either.)
I enjoyed the character interactions a lot across the board, really. As much as they get a little iffy sometimes and a lot of the roasting and trolling got pretty vicious, the party read well as a group that genuinely cared about one another.
Looked it up. Those are the same heart to heart. A few of them actually branch, but the vast majority have a "goes off the rails, feet enter mouths, and the group winds up pissed at each other" option and a "genuine character interaction and higher affinity bonus" option. Ironically, the more innocuous sounding option there is the goes off the rails one. :PThe one I remember, at least, was about Pandoria angsting about Pyra/Brighid's looks, and asking Morag's advice because of her manliness...or something. And that she was focused specifically on Pyra/Brighid gave the whole thing this predictable "real women have big tits" subtext...
They don't seem to have any problem coming out of their comfort zone to abuse and harass people who want to change their games.
You can add me to the list of people who skipped XC2 because of its gross objectification, and keep hearing about things that made me realise I made the right choice.
are you ok, should we call emergency?Man I just saw the new Star Wars movie and the story was as film as it could be. Did you see the latest GoT? It was hella TV.
It speaks to the importance of visual design, if anything.It's good that people are skipping it, and you should let Nintendo know that's the reason why so they actually apply pressure to their creative directors to not have this crap in it.
With that said, I don't see it being wildly out of line with JRPGs. It's ~100 hour RPG, and I don't think any game of that scale completely avoid objectionable treatment of female characters. The character designs may be substantially worse, but the worst of the worst is all optional stuff at the mercy of RNG, and the relationships around the women are generally better treated than they were in Persona 5 / Cold Steel (just using those two as other, very large, very recent JRPGs).
I get your point here, but it's pretty much an accepted colloquial shorthand for "This is indicative of genre trends for both storytelling and visual presentation common in the lowest creativity subset of shonen manga and anime aimed at a demographic of teenage boys with a secondary subdemographic of 18-35 year old male otaku" which is a hell of a lot longer to type and requires a lot more medium and demographic knowledge that people don't have.Think about it a little harder. I was pointing out the absurdity of your statement by applying it to other mediums.
When I'm pushing 40 and have a young family of my own, I like seeing healthy depictions of the swathe of human relationships that don't just revolve around which adolescent is attracted to which other adolescent and which teenager with a stick can beat up which other slightly grumpier teen with a stick.
What's happening is that the developers who are aware of this as an issue have been ramping down the fanservice, and any ramping up is coming from the ones who aren't aware. That's why most of the egregious examples in this thread are coming from Japanese developers. They both don't understand what the issue is, and they're beholden to otaku spending habits, so it's just going to continue. On the other hand, gender representation has markedly improved in Western AAA games so it's not all bad.Franchises and overall genres (looking at you, fighting games) have ramped up the fanservice through the years, of course that was not a problem for them, but going back a little on how it was before it is.
I get your point here, but it's pretty much an accepted colloquial shorthand for "This is indicative of genre trends for both storytelling and visual presentation common in the lowest creativity subset of shonen manga and anime aimed at a demographic of teenage boys with a secondary subdemographic of 18-35 year old male otaku" which is a hell of a lot longer to type and requires a lot more medium and demographic knowledge that people don't have.
to me it reads you didnt have any proper counter argument and instead attempted to be funny/ snarky..Think about it a little harder. I was pointing out the absurdity of your statement by applying it to other mediums.
to me it reads you didnt have any proper counter argument and instead attempted to be funny/ snarky..
This is a fair point, Era's cultural zeitgeist is pretty unique in the way it feels about and refers to anime in some ways, and the use of "anime" as a pejorative without understanding of the specific above context is certainly also propagated by use of that particular slang definition. It's probably not the best choice of words in the world as a pejorative or shorthand compliment, since it both indirectly encourages the idea that an entire medium's output is either inherently bad (or good) because it's "exotic" in a homogenious, simplified, stereotypical way in groups that don't understand the definition, who can pick it up from those who use it knowingly.The problem here is that this definition of "anime" only really applies to people that do understand that definition - I've never heard it used as a pejorative outside of places like this. To everyone else, "anime" means Studio Ghibli or Cowboy Bebop or Death Note, and saying something is "anime as fuck" translates to "it's from Japan", "big eyes" and, possibly, "It's not for kids".
Hello, friend.Man I just saw the new Star Wars movie and the story was as film as it could be. Did you see the latest GoT? It was hella TV.
It's good that people are skipping it, and you should let Nintendo know that's the reason why so they actually apply pressure to their creative directors to not have this crap in it.
With that said, I don't see it being wildly out of line with JRPGs. It's ~100 hour RPG, and I don't think any game of that scale completely avoid objectionable treatment of female characters, and usually the male characters also have their own share of how their relationships are portrayed at that length. The character designs may be substantially worse in XC2, but the worst of the worst is all optional stuff at the mercy of RNG, and the relationships around the women are generally better treated than they were in Persona 5 / Cold Steel (just using those two as other, very large, very recent JRPGs).
Big picture, I think the game's largest problem remains that the female Blades have vastly more sexualized designs than their male counterparts. Like, there's a bunch of conceivable pairs of Blades (by Driver, by plot, or by artist) where the male is man is wearing normal clothes and the female is wearing almost nothing.
Pyra/Malos?
Pyra/BirdGuy?
Brighid/Aegeon?
There's a few pairs of blades that are actually well-done, I think (Aegeon/Agate, Dagas/Azami), but they are the exception rather than the rule. Blades themselves have about a 50-50 split between Male/Female through most of the game and setting, but the (slightly) upgraded "Rare Blades" that can replace the Commons at some low frequency are most of the truly awful designs.
EDIT: And to respond to the above a bit, I definitely see it used as a pejorative elsewhere on the internet. And in real life. In both the sense that something is fanservicey as hell, or that it's shounen as hell. It's usually obvious from context whether it's one, the other, or both. It drives me nuts. The difference is, I can call people out for it in smaller communities where my opinion has more weight than here, where I'm just another jellyfish in the ocean.
One of the big problems with the treatment of female characters is that many or most positive aspects about them are typically connected in some way to males or traits classically proposed as being masculine. Toughness, being emotionally closed, etc. - not actual traits that really relate to being masculine so much as cultural carryovers for what masculinity means. And these typically prop up during backstories. They're tough because they were "trained to be male", or because their brother or father or some other male figure desired it. But toughness isn't... you know, associated with being male or female, and it's really odd to see so many stories propose this, because other than via cultural implanting there's nothing inherent about a personality trait being masculine or feminine.
The difference being that Persona 5 didn't shove any of those things in your face during marketing, so of course more people will be willing to give it a try. Yeah, I had issues with Persona 5 for several reasons, a few that impeded my enjoyment of the narrative. XC2, however, is happy to flaunt its horrible objectification of female characters, so I'll just save myself the discomfort.
It's interesting how XB2 is called out far more than P5, which is getting onto a fair few GOTY lists despite some serious narrative flaws, problematic portrayals and overused clichés - especially with the increasing awareness of certain issues. Did no one play past the first dungeon, or did they just not notice/care for the hypocritical way the game treats Ann, or the way it frames gay men?
I am 45 and this is the single biggest reason that I have slowly moved away from JRPG's. It's also the main reason I loved the version of Nier that they release in the West.
It's interesting how XB2 is called out far more than P5, which is getting onto a fair few GOTY lists despite some serious narrative flaws, problematic portrayals and overused clichés - especially with the increasing awareness of certain issues. Did no one play past the first dungeon, or did they just not notice/care for the hypocritical way the game treats Ann, or the way it frames gay men?