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Oct 27, 2017
488
I have my doubts, considering the top post and others.
I can only speak for myself, but I certainly don't want to take things I like away as a concept (I am literally typing this while alt-tabbed out of a visual novel, I'm pretty close to peak weeb in the media I consume) but I do think it's important that one be both self-aware and aware of the impact that the media you consume can have on other people--it's part of general critical discourse and it's usually healthy to be critical of the stuff you enjoy. I've watched, from a position of mostly unchanging enjoyment, as JRPGs genre-wide have shifted toward pandering almost exclusively to 20-30-something male otaku and teenage boys. I've watched Atelier, which once targeted at a primary demographic of women, begin targeting the male otaku market for supplementary income with gradually increasing intensity over the years. I've watched as friends struggle through the changes that ongoing series make, and eventually fall out of love with them because the content that makes them uncomfortable starts to eclipse the things they enjoy.

I think that's a shame, and something very much worthy of criticism. Most women are not asking to be able to play Senran Kagura without being uncomfortable if they don't fall into the target zone--they're not asking to play Dead or Alive, either. They're looking at entire genres that have increasingly alienated them over time and lamenting that things that they liked do not want them anymore. People do not want to take things you like away in the context that they don't want them to exist at all, but they do tend to wish that they could actually play reasonably successful, critically acclaimed JRPGs and Fighting Games without being slapped in the face periodically. I don't think that's an unfair ask.

I can't walk two steps without tripping over anime tits, and I don't need them in everything I consume. I'd rather the stuff I like that isn't fully contingent on them be enjoyed by the largest possible audience, because I don't need literally every work of media I consume to pander to me sexually, and as Japanese media is concerned very nearly ALL OF THEM try to. AAA western games have unquestionably gotten way, way better over the course of the last decade, though they're not all the way home yet. But, like, it is NOT EASY to be a woman who likes JRPGs and doesn't want tits shoved in her face on a regular basis right now. You only can play like 20% of the genre's output at that point. And as the western market is concerned JRPGs are one of the most popular genres among female players last I checked, so it's a pretty huge global market disconnect.
Whenever I see a sexualized female character (again, excluding ridiculous stuff like Xenoblade snow lady) it's like my brain immediately starts fighting with itself lmao. I immediately get assaulted with thoughts of "oh no she's hot" and "goddamn it, not again". It's quite the experience, really. Though I imagine it's a similar thought process to that of straight men who care about female representation.

I wish I could just relax and enjoy sexualized female characters like most straight men do, but there's always that nagging feeling of "why do women get sexualized so much? why can't women characters just not be sexy sometimes? why do so many men see us as just walking holes instead of equal human beings?".
This is a pretty accurate representation of my headspace too. For my part for a couple years after I "woke up" to this kind of shit I wasn't able to enjoy trashy fanservicey stuff, but I eventually let myself sink back down into desensitization enough to return to enjoying my garbage while also criticizing media trends. I feel like it's been a more enjoyable place to be mentally since making that transition, but it'd be difficult to speak to whether it's a healthier place to be or not--to just be able to open with a "Jesus Christ, guys" and possibly a facepalm, and then let it go until I'm reflecting on the work later.
 
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Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
A girlfriend of mine loves Senran Kagura even more than I do, and she definitely isn't afraid to complain about female representation.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Sexualized violence like Bayonetta, more typical BDSM type stuff (some female anime teacher whipping her students), or both or something else? Curious about where the line is for this (mostly, I see sexual violence as just a worse form violence).

I haven't played Bayonetta. I mean stuff like female characters being portrayed in a "sexy" way while they're being hurt or tortured. I think Anita Sarkeesian had a whole video on this.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
I haven't played Bayonetta. I mean stuff like female characters being portrayed in a "sexy" way while they're being hurt or tortured. I think Anita Sarkeesian had a whole video on this.

What Bayonetta...What MGS3 and GTA5. I was more shocked with Lilac's torture scene in Freedom Planet.

maxresdefault.jpg

I guess Okami is the only Hideki Kamiya game I'll bother playing.Like it so far. Even better aesthetics than Wind Waker.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Whenever I see a sexualized female character (again, excluding ridiculous stuff like Xenoblade snow lady) it's like my brain immediately starts fighting with itself lmao. I immediately get assaulted with thoughts of "oh no she's hot" and "goddamn it, not again". It's quite the experience, really. Though I imagine it's a similar thought process to that of straight men who care about female representation.

I wish I could just relax and enjoy sexualized female characters like most straight men do, but there's always that nagging feeling of "why do women get sexualized so much? why can't women characters just not be sexy sometimes? why do so many men see us as just walking holes instead of equal human beings?".

I will also say that, unlike many men, I hate sexualized violence and never find it sexy. It just makes me upset and sad tbh
Yep, that's exactly how I (a man) think, too. Every. Single. Time. Especially that second part, haha. "Why can't I just enjoy games again?" Then I remember that's what GamerGate assholes are always attacking people (women) for not doing, and I feel righteous again.

That said, I do have the advantage of sometimes thinking sexy outfits look simultaneously badass. Or, more badass than sexy. I feel this way about 2B. I don't know how my brain rationalizes this, but it is how I feel. And I understand why many don't feel that way. (I've already mentioned this somewhere way back in the thread, but hey it's sorta relevant again in this response.)

And then on the flip side when I see a hot dude I can just accept it because it's such a rarity. I've never much liked the roided out look, even before I knew I liked men, too. So it's extra rare. Though I can sure dig Gladio...

I am repulsed by any sort of sexualized violence. Women losing clothes as they're attacked is fuckin' gross. Women looking sexually aroused while being tortured, no fucking thanks. It's so common, too, and I don't get why. I mean, I do. But I can't empathize with it at all. But to be fair I don't necessarily count BDSM as part of that. Because I know it's consensual. At least, the good kind is.

EDIT:

also

Again, one big difference is how they're posed. Yeah, these guys are half-naked, but they're mostly showing off their tattoos and their hyper-masculinity. This kind of art is designed to appeal to men.

While this is definitely true, I know a lot of people (both men and women) who love Yakuza for how attractive they are (especially Kiryu and Majima (in 0)).

It's definitely a game centered around hypermasculinity, but they're still hot.
 
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4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
Yeah, it's particularly telling since they're never looking at the camera, which is often a big tell for pandering stuff.
Yeah, that's a good point. The questions "Why does the character look like this?" and "What is their facial expression?" tells a lot about what's going on.

While this is definitely true, I know a lot of people (both men and women) who love Yakuza for how attractive they are (especially Kiryu and Majima (in 0)).

It's definitely a game centered around hypermasculinity, but they're still hot.
Sure, but there's a big difference in intent. The main problem with sexualization in visual media isn't that women are made to look hot, but that looking hot is the primary reason for the way they're designed and posed. While looking hot can be an incidental, and even purposeful, effect of the Yakuza art, it's definitely not the main one.

Or, if you want to think about it another way, take a look at Frank Franzetta's artwork. Often his male characters are just as naked and look just as hot as his female ones. However, there's a massive difference in the way they're posed, and that makes all the difference as far as sexualization is concerned. And, in my opinion, if you were to just pose the female characters the way the males ones are portrayed, then a lot of the problematic parts of the art would go away even though their skimpy outfits are still the same. You can check out the Hawkeye Initiative for more illustrations of the same principle.

I don't know if these have been posted earlier, but Bikini Armor Battle Damage and Escher Girls are also some good sites in the same vein.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I know all about intent. :P

My only point was to emphasize that for a lot of people I know, the attractiveness of Yakuza characters is a big deal.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Yep, that's exactly how I (a man) think, too. Every. Single. Time. Especially that second part, haha. "Why can't I just enjoy games again?" Then I remember that's what GamerGate assholes are always attacking people (women) for not doing, and I feel righteous again.

That said, I do have the advantage of sometimes thinking sexy outfits look simultaneously badass. Or, more badass than sexy. I feel this way about 2B. I don't know how my brain rationalizes this, but it is how I feel. And I understand why many don't feel that way. (I've already mentioned this somewhere way back in the thread, but hey it's sorta relevant again in this response.)

And then on the flip side when I see a hot dude I can just accept it because it's such a rarity. I've never much liked the roided out look, even before I knew I liked men, too. So it's extra rare. Though I can sure dig Gladio...

I am repulsed by any sort of sexualized violence. Women losing clothes as they're attacked is fuckin' gross. Women looking sexually aroused while being tortured, no fucking thanks. It's so common, too, and I don't get why. I mean, I do. But I can't empathize with it at all. But to be fair I don't necessarily count BDSM as part of that. Because I know it's consensual. At least, the good kind is.

I haven't played Nier Automata either but I don't think there's anything wrong with 2B's outfit exactly. Like, the heels are a bit dumb, and the whole "panty shots as achievements" thing is questionable, but it's honestly not bad imo. It's sexy but not in a tasteless way. From her design alone (again, I haven't played the game), I don't think there's much wrong with 2B; she just looks like an attractive, stylish character. Bayonetta would fall in this camp too if it wasn't for the whole male gazey camera issue.
 

StonedCrows

Member
Nov 30, 2017
43
On the topic of wanting to be able to enjoy games?

XBC2 hit me really hard. A few things: I'm as transhumanist as any person reasonably can be without actually being a Kurzweil clone. That's one. For another, I actually tire fairly easily of a lack of visual diversity. Another one we can toss on the pile is that I have this weird empathy, too. I'll come back to that one, but I will say that I'm delighted whenever I see something that isn't a conventionally pretty human being holding conceivably any role other than 'monster.'

Sooo... AI rendering via hardlight hologram that represents itself as a talking big cat (of some kind), with an accent that may very well be swoon-worthy? Sure. I'm compatible with this. I could get hype for thi--ohhh um... hey. Hey. Hey. What you're doing with the camera there is making me really uncomfortable. Oh, you're paying real close attention to her thong suspenders... wh-why does she have thong-suspenders? Does anyone actually need thong-suspenders? How do they work???? This is like Hotstreak (I think) from Static Shock whose trousers stayed up by the sheer power of suspension of disbelief. Still, at least that wasn't so... Oh dear. Um. Aaah... Say. Are her boobs getting noticeably bigger in every cutscene? Yes. Um...

Then I couldn't bring myself to buy Xenoblade Chronicles 2 any more.

Sure, I would've liked to do so, but the sheer embarrassing cringe-factor involved, and how awful it makes me feel from a point of empathy as well? No, I can't. I wanted to. Can't. Can't. Nope. And THEN Dahlia happened and the levels of nope went through the roof, rocketed off into outer space, and has now re-established contact with Voyager 1.

Well bugger.

Maybe next time. Maybe Xenoblade Chronicles X 2. But that's probably not going to have a talking cat, is it? Japan, why do you do this to me?

---

Okay, that's the end of that.

For those that want to keep reading (for whatever reason), it'd be rude to mention the strange empathy thing and not actually reveal anything about that. Maybe I shouldn't? Perhaps this is irrelevant data? I was always really bad about that. How do neurotypicals know what relevant data actually is?

So, here's a thing which is a thing. If you've experienced a lot of prejudice, it'll do weird things to your brain. After a while you begin to apply empathy to everything, it gets really weird.

Example: Hey, so, those guys want to kill that dragon. There's four white dudes, there. Now, they posit that the beast in question committed some rather heinous crimes. Um, where's the evidence of that? Did we gather proof? I'd like to see! Why hasn't the fantasy superintendent sent a detective constable to check this mess out and discern the actual guilt of the dragon in question? What about fantasy forensics? We can summon fireballs out of thin air but we can't do forensics? Are you sure?

Wait. Wait wait wait. Hold on. Let's not kill the dragon. I really do want to actually make this a full scale investigation. We don't have to react foolhardily without all the information we'd need to properly incriminate. You could be wrong. You could be being mislead.

Oh, you want to kill the dragon? That's different. I guess that makes you a bunch of brigands and looters, the beast in question's actually innocent and the victim of what's basically a mugging? Okay. Right. I'm going to have to take the four of you on, and save the dragon.

What's that, princess, you say? Are you sure? Did you actually check that she wasn't being picked up for a date and that this isn't a consensual relationship? What's that? Wouldn't do it with a dragon? Well, that's a bit bigoted in this day and age, isn't it? Really, instead of assuming for the lady, have you actually bothered to ask her if she was kidnapped? She's right there!

Oh, you don't care? Um. Right. We're right back to you 'orrible lot just bieng a bunch of brigands, aren't we? Stand down, or I'll chop yer bits off.

Which is how it usually goes in my head whenever I see a bunch of four white dudes facing off against a dragon. Because really, what did the dragon actually do?

Reminds me a bit of the GW2 manifesto (most of which was utter nonsense, but this part's relevant). About how a quest might tell you some story about centaurs killing someone's parents, ransacking a village, and every day they roll into town and kill people and drag off their loot to a nearby den. So you head on over to the centaurs and they're just standing around in a field, sniffing daisies. You wait a few days, they just pretty much keep doing that. Um. At that point, it's hard to feel as though one isn't being mislead.

A lot of games put me off with this. "Assume thing is evil because it looks/behaves different than us! We should want to cure/kill thing, because different!"

Wow, game. That sure hits close to home for someone with autism, or probably anyone who's experienced prejudice. So that kind of thing actually makes me a bit uncomfortable, as such I do like it when video games are made up of a huge line of diverse people. And when good and evil are just motivations rather than being indicated by species or hide colour.

Sorry to waste your time with this. Didn't mean to derail. Just... Would've liked to spend some time with that cat. But I can't, because that game is also not great to women and my guilt would give me crap about it.
 

Squidi

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
120
I read an old travel guide (Lonely Planet, Japan, 2003) that says that Japan is one of the safest destinations, if you are a man. Almost all women travellers report incidents of harassment, like unwanted touching, vulgar teasings,rape attempts and rape. Women should use common sense and avoid travelling alone at night or distance themselves from crowded areas. Also they should avoid boarding empty or overcrowded buses. They shouldnt visit a bar alone and avoid having eye contact. They shouldnt also encourage discussions with others, no matter how kind they behave.Organizations claim that a lot of women hesitate to report those incidents, because hospitals and police arent helpful at all. They even blame them saying it was their fault. Guide even advices in case of emergency to get in contact with Japanese Human Rights Center. Also Japanese police have much greater authority and power than their western colleagues. They can detain you up to three days and it is up to them if they let you have contact with a lawyer or the embassy. They dont speak English, so one should ask for a translator first before doing anything.

Reading that guide I wonder if things are that bleak for women travellers
I can't comment on that guide specifically, but I lived in Japan the 2000/2001 school year. Both my wife and I read multiple travel guides before going to Japan, probably the Lonely Planet one too, and I don't recall any of them saying anything like that. The big warning I got before going to Japan was about getting IVs, since they apparently didn't sterilize the needles or something (though, true to form, I became seriously dehydrated during travel and ended up getting an IV the second night after I arrived).

Our experience was not without potential dangers (especially at night - bousouzoku motorcycle gangs, yakuza at the local arcade, roving packs of wild dogs), but there were never any issues with any of that stuff, nor anything listed above. No harassment and outside of the dogs we didn't feel unsafe as we wandered around. The police in the koban box were also quite helpful, even with the language barrier.

In Tokyo, which I only saw from a bus as I traveled between airports, I'd probably be a little more cautious. I would not expect anything listed above to happen to you if you are a women, but I'd be aware of the possibility of it happening and behave accordingly. I'd interpret the above as a precaution, not an inevitability.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,307
Women travelling with their husbands will inevitably have a different experience than women travelling alone.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
Sexualized violence like Bayonetta, more typical BDSM type stuff (some female anime teacher whipping her students), or both or something else? Curious about where the line is for this (mostly, I see sexual violence as just a worse form violence).
Ah, got it. Yeah, that stuff is pretty much only ever creepy.

Honestly, it's probably the most vile thing regarding women's representation in games, combining titillation and extreme violence against women.
It's come up a couple times in this thread, these were some of the examples I've seen people mention

NSFW
XeCf1Vd.png

Dead+Island+Riptide+controversy.jpg

Hitman+nuns+1.jpg


This shot from Snatcher is uncensored in game.
SY7uvoQ.png


Yrkip2.gif

Also, the Catherine remake got announced.
Very excited about that, but at the same time the representation of trans people in that game is really awful.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,519
The Catherine remake has me worried. Adding a third Catherine to the story seems like it will just mess with the story of the game in order to try and sell players on the game with a new "waifu".
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
The Catherine remake has me worried. Adding a third Catherine to the story seems like it will just mess with the story of the game in order to try and sell players on the game with a new "waifu".
Missed opportunity to add a homosexual option.

Yea, I'm kinda worried about the decision to include a third Catherine. Not immediately impressed with the choice they went with either, not that I have that much to go on though.

Also, thanks to whoever edited my previous post. I definitely didn't see that photo outside of the spoiler box.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Also, the Catherine remake got announced.
Very excited about that, but at the same time the representation of trans people in that game is really awful.
The worst thing is that as far as trans representation goes, Erica was actually pretty decent... up until they went all "HAHA MC FUCKED A 'DUDE'", made her have nightmares based around the idea that she "isn't really a woman" and then deadnamed her in the credits. Really fucking gross, Atlus.

I don't expect them to fix anything but It'd be nice if they did.
 

Kapus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
744
Under your bed
As a woman who is attracted to other women, I often find myself attracted to fanservicey designs (well, the ones that look like women and not like a 12 year old boy's concept of one), but that's dampened when I remember that 1. those designs are made with men in mind, and not me, 2. they're fucking EVERYWHERE.

Basically, my thirst for women is often at odds with my desire to be treated as a human being lol
I'm not as attracted to women as I am to men (kinda bi), but when it comes to women I pretty much share the same sentiments. It's hard. I actually like some fanservicey designs if they're tasteful and actually have a place with the character and setting, but how often does that happen?

I've also had many lesbian friends, usually as coworkers, and they shared similar sentiments as well. I know one of them off the top of my head had a greater preference for girly girls as opposed to more tomboyish and/or "butch" women, though. Just a lil observation.
 

Dragmire

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,116
This is one of the promo art for the new Catherine:
catherine-full-body-first-screenshots
Catherine-14.jpg

Well at least they are consistent in giving each Catherine an awful promo pic.
 

StonedCrows

Member
Nov 30, 2017
43
Funny you bring up butch women, Kapus. They're my partner's favourite. I'm pretty much effectively asexual, in that I don't care for sex, much, as a part of the physical world. Though I'm homosexual as a concept, in a way, after a fashion. My partner is much the same. We're both biromantic. It's a strange yet incredibly stable relationship. Going on six years, now.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. My partner loves buff women, chubby, or stocky women. Those are her fave when it comes to what she's attracted to. However, you don't really see a lot of that in the fanservice-y stuff because (for reasons???) most straight guys seem to only be attracted to the most conventional, entirely status quo-informed ideal of the 'beautiful woman.' I think that's why we see so many 'body clones.'

I'm pretty sure (though not absolutely) that Anita Sarkeesian actually talked about this. So many slender ladies or somesuch. She's pretty much right on the mark with that one. I feel that for every one chubby, or stocky, or muscular woman you get you'll get over a hundred conventionally slender types.

It's weird, too. I mean, it's really weird. The straight guys I have as acquaintances aren't into that, they prefer chubby or more pear-shaped women, too. That might just be those I know, though. I figured those old standards had changed since the '90s, but I guess not?

Here's the thing, I guess I'm trying to say: Mainstream games today are all Leisure Suit Larry. All of them, and it's weeeeird.

Doesn't it strike anyone else as weird?

I mean, back in the day, I was playing the likes of Full Throttle and Day of the Tentacle. Consider the body types of Maureen Corley and Laverne from those games. Keep in mind that Full Throttle had Suzi! It was actually more unusual for games to be all about just slender ladies back in the '90s on PC.

I'm not sure when that happened.

Though I have an inkling it was around '06 when the PS3 and 360 dropped. That seemed to create a weird paradigm shift in gaming tastes. So it might've happened there. I can't say for sure, but that was a big event. Around that time, PC gaming was "dead" after enjoying an illustrious time in the '90s.

Anyone remember that? PC gaming being dead?

So everything is Leisure Suit Larry, now. That's weird. Which means that all the guy characters are basically Larry. I now understand why contemporary games put me off so much! Geralt is basically Larry! Everything is falling into place! I don't want to be Larry! I had enough of him in limited doses in the '90s!

Why is everything Leisure Suit Larry now?

Aaanyway, sorry. Even The Elder Scrolls Online, which is startlingly progressive, suffers with these problems. The chubbiness slider for women doesn't go up anywhere near what it does for guys, the musculature sliders for women also don't scale as much as they do for guys. Why? It's weird. And the vast, vast majority of NPC women are slender, too.

Basically, it's all Leisure Suit Larry now. And all the women are Leisure Suit Larry women. That's why my partner can't find anything she'd enjoy out of all of this. And it probably explains why there's this undercurrent of feeling like women are objectified by contemporary games.

When did every game designer become Larry Laffer?

It's so weird.
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
The Catherine remake has me worried. Adding a third Catherine to the story seems like it will just mess with the story of the game in order to try and sell players on the game with a new "waifu".
Yes, I am not fond of her design. I mean I do not think Catherine's design is the best but hers meshes better with the other designs than pink hair's does.
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,029
When did every game designer become Larry Laffer?

It's so weird.
the endless for boy marketing, games built for said marketing, and that high budget games have had a even larger increase in budget and thus less risks can be involved started a compounding effect that took an already slight male majority and snowballed it into x-blades tier trash
 
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4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
This is one of the promo art for the new Catherine:

Well at least they are consistent in giving each Catherine an awful promo pic.
I honestly don't think that she looks that bad; even her pose is reasonable since she's probably outright propositioning Vincent. It's not like other games where this kind of pose happens regardless of context.

Here's the thing, I guess I'm trying to say: Mainstream games today are all Leisure Suit Larry. All of them, and it's weeeeird.

Doesn't it strike anyone else as weird?

I mean, back in the day, I was playing the likes of Full Throttle and Day of the Tentacle. Consider the body types of Maureen Corley and Laverne from those games. Keep in mind that Full Throttle had Suzi! It was actually more unusual for games to be all about just slender ladies back in the '90s on PC.

I'm not sure when that happened.

Though I have an inkling it was around '06 when the PS3 and 360 dropped. That seemed to create a weird paradigm shift in gaming tastes. So it might've happened there. I can't say for sure, but that was a big event. Around that time, PC gaming was "dead" after enjoying an illustrious time in the '90s.

Anyone remember that? PC gaming being dead?

So everything is Leisure Suit Larry, now. That's weird. Which means that all the guy characters are basically Larry. I now understand why contemporary games put me off so much! Geralt is basically Larry! Everything is falling into place! I don't want to be Larry! I had enough of him in limited doses in the '90s!

Why is everything Leisure Suit Larry now?

Aaanyway, sorry. Even The Elder Scrolls Online, which is startlingly progressive, suffers with these problems. The chubbiness slider for women doesn't go up anywhere near what it does for guys, the musculature sliders for women also don't scale as much as they do for guys. Why? It's weird. And the vast, vast majority of NPC women are slender, too.

Basically, it's all Leisure Suit Larry now. And all the women are Leisure Suit Larry women. That's why my partner can't find anything she'd enjoy out of all of this. And it probably explains why there's this undercurrent of feeling like women are objectified by contemporary games.

When did every game designer become Larry Laffer?

It's so weird.
The AAA game happened. Game budgets started to balloon and game companies started taking more cues from Hollywood; Hollywood action films in particular. At least, the big publishers are starting to acknowledge this as a problem and some of them have been making efforts to improve things. Most of the more egregious examples nowadays are coming from Japan, and there's not much that can be done about game designers there.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
It's really, really loud compared to the other two. It really does seem like waifu bait.
She's a character named "Rin" in a North American setting, with an overt pink hair while most others have natural hair color, wearing a dress which top resembles a sailor fuku.

I'd like to say that any perceived "waifu bait"-ness and creepiness is intentional. But I dunno; the (former) Persona team tends to have self-awareness some time, then completely lacking it the next.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
I haven't played Nier Automata either but I don't think there's anything wrong with 2B's outfit exactly. Like, the heels are a bit dumb, and the whole "panty shots as achievements" thing is questionable, but it's honestly not bad imo. It's sexy but not in a tasteless way. From her design alone (again, I haven't played the game), I don't think there's much wrong with 2B; she just looks like an attractive, stylish character. Bayonetta would fall in this camp too if it wasn't for the whole male gazey camera issue.

There's a particular scene where her dress gets torn up in battle, and you can completely see her underwear. Worst of all, it was an emotional cutscene. I remember just thinking "What...". That was the only point in the game her outfit made me feel particularly uncomfortable. It was pretty odd and out of place, and ruined the moment for me, personally.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
There's a particular scene where her dress gets torn up in battle, and you can completely see her underwear. Worst of all, it was an emotional cutscene. I remember just thinking "What...". That was the only point in the game her outfit made me feel particularly uncomfortable. It was pretty odd and out of place, and ruined the moment for me, personally.
Haha, yeah, I agree that was... odd.

But also sorta (if I'm remembering right)
that whole scene felt kinda weirdly sexual anyway, with the way 2B was choking the life out of 9S, like she was almost kinda... into it... which sounds real fucked up, and is, but when she kills him is the most intimate moment they have in the game up to that point, and it's obvious she loved him and hated having to kill him over and over
and whatever??
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,641
There's a particular scene where her dress gets torn up in battle, and you can completely see her underwear. Worst of all, it was an emotional cutscene. I remember just thinking "What...". That was the only point in the game her outfit made me feel particularly uncomfortable. It was pretty odd and out of place, and ruined the moment for me, personally.

I was gonna say why the hell didn't I remember this, so I just looked it up. I guess it's because the tear was basically where the slit in her skirt already was, so it didn't really stand out to me. Also I was paying attention to other stuff I imagine lol

Haha, yeah, I agree that was... odd.

But also sorta (if I'm remembering right)
that whole scene felt kinda weirdly sexual anyway, with the way 2B was choking the life out of 9S, like she was almost kinda... into it... which sounds real fucked up, and is, but when she kills him is the most intimate moment they have in the game up to that point, and it's obvious she loved him and hated having to kill him over and over
and whatever??

I dunno if I agree that she was into it, but it was definitely meant to have the player think that yea, this is definitely a sexually charged moment.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I was gonna say why the hell didn't I remember this, so I just looked it up. I guess it's because the tear was basically where the slit in her skirt already was, so it didn't really stand out to me. Also I was paying attention to other stuff I imagine lol



I dunno if I agree that she was into it, but it was definitely meant to have the player think that yea, this is definitely a sexually charged moment.
Yeah I might be reading too much into the that particular element.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
The first game had a similar aggressive moment that was sexually charged, seems to be a running theme lol
I may have not seen the scene you're referring to, heh. I couldn't play more than one ending of the first Nier. >_> The gameplay got so repetitive.

Granted, a large part of that was my fault, as that was The Game that finally got me to drop my completionist tendencies. "I've had enough with these damn flowers! I'm out!" Maybe I should go back to it and just rush through stuff instead of bothering with all the dumb trophies. Hmm.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
The first game had a similar aggressive moment that was sexually charged, seems to be a running theme lol
The scene where Kaine attacks father Nier in the hallway before the last boss?

I may have not seen the scene you're referring to, heh. I couldn't play more than one ending of the first Nier. >_> The gameplay got so repetitive.

Granted, a large part of that was my fault, as that was The Game that finally got me to drop my completionist tendencies. "I've had enough with these damn flowers! I'm out!" Maybe I should go back to it and just rush through stuff instead of bothering with all the dumb trophies. Hmm.

Yea, I'd recommend returning to it. It's definitely harder get through than Automata due to the way they handle the endings, but I think the experience is worth it.

Also the Yakuza franchise served to break down my completionist tendencies.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
The scene where Kaine attacks father Nier in the hallway before the last boss?



Yea, I'd recommend returning to it. It's definitely harder get through than Automata due to the way they handle the endings, but I think the experience is worth it.

Also the Yakuza franchise served to break down my completionist tendencies.
Yakuza 0 is actually what got me back into gaming hard after Nier fucking killed it for me. I literally didn't play a game for a month between them!!

Was that scene in the first ending? I want to say I vaguely remember it, but... I may be inventing that memory. Got a link? I don't mind spoilers. :P (Don't worry about it too much, if at all, I'm mostly just curious.)
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
Yakuza 0 is actually what got me back into gaming hard after Nier fucking killed it for me. I literally didn't play a game for a month between them!!

Was that scene in the first ending? I want to say I vaguely remember it, but... I may be inventing that memory. Got a link? I don't mind spoilers. :P (Don't worry about it too much, if at all, I'm mostly just curious.)

https://youtu.be/4wTMEQEiVDA?t=5h32m11s
It's right after Emil sacrifices himself if I remember right.

What did you think of Automata?

And yea Yakuza 0 is my goty.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Nier: Automata is easily one of my favorite games this generation! Maybe all time, but I am bad at "favorites".

Ah, yes, I remember that scene now. Definitely charged. :P
Emil ;_;

That whole identical corridor over and over again sequence was pretty cathartic after what happened.

Was real happy to see him back in Automata, even if he's mostly just a weird joke.

I'm also again reminded just how much I hate Kaine's outfit. D: D: D: Love her as a character, though.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,641

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
Haha, yeah, I agree that was... odd.

But also sorta (if I'm remembering right)
that whole scene felt kinda weirdly sexual anyway, with the way 2B was choking the life out of 9S, like she was almost kinda... into it... which sounds real fucked up, and is, but when she kills him is the most intimate moment they have in the game up to that point, and it's obvious she loved him and hated having to kill him over and over
and whatever??

There is a case file from jackass that details how androids get pleasure, that is close to how we feel love, from battle and violence just as a way to cope with all the fighting and violence the war brings. I don't think it's specific to yorha.

Read into that how you will.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
No, you're good at favorites :3

It's a testament to the writing in that game that I was able to actually overlook it for the most part.
Yeah, she's really great. Dang I do need to go finish all those endings...

There is a case file from jackass that details how androids get pleasure, that is close to how we feel love, from battle and violence just as a way to cope with all the fighting and violence the war brings. I don't think it's specific to yorha.

Read into that how you will.
Oh yeah I do remember that now that you mention it. I'll read into it that I'm right. :P
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
There's a particular scene where her dress gets torn up in battle, and you can completely see her underwear. Worst of all, it was an emotional cutscene. I remember just thinking "What...". That was the only point in the game her outfit made me feel particularly uncomfortable. It was pretty odd and out of place, and ruined the moment for me, personally.

Well, color me completely unsurprised :/
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
Haha, yeah, I agree that was... odd.

But also sorta (if I'm remembering right)
that whole scene felt kinda weirdly sexual anyway, with the way 2B was choking the life out of 9S, like she was almost kinda... into it... which sounds real fucked up, and is, but when she kills him is the most intimate moment they have in the game up to that point, and it's obvious she loved him and hated having to kill him over and over
and whatever??

Yeah, I remember being a bit weirded out when she straddled 9S and I got some sexual vibes from the scene, partially because even though they're androids and so don't actually have ages, 9S is modeled to look like a young teenage boy. That's also why the "You're thinking about how much you want to **** 2B, aren't you?" bit weirded me out. I think I only truly appreciated ending A and B after finishing the other endings, and I found out more about their relationship and backstories.

I was gonna say why the hell didn't I remember this, so I just looked it up. I guess it's because the tear was basically where the slit in her skirt already was, so it didn't really stand out to me. Also I was paying attention to other stuff I imagine lol



I dunno if I agree that she was into it, but it was definitely meant to have the player think that yea, this is definitely a sexually charged moment.

Yeah, but you could suddenly completely see her thighs and panties out of nowhere, so I was taken aback.
It didn't help that I didn't realise that her dress was ripped the first time I saw it happen. :P I still felt it was out of place and unnecessary when I saw it again, though.
But it's a testament to the game's overall quality that it ended up being my second favourite game of the year despite a couple of awkward moments.
 

Avinash117

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,602
Funny you bring up butch women, Kapus. They're my partner's favourite. I'm pretty much effectively asexual, in that I don't care for sex, much, as a part of the physical world. Though I'm homosexual as a concept, in a way, after a fashion. My partner is much the same. We're both biromantic. It's a strange yet incredibly stable relationship. Going on six years, now.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. My partner loves buff women, chubby, or stocky women. Those are her fave when it comes to what she's attracted to. However, you don't really see a lot of that in the fanservice-y stuff because (for reasons???) most straight guys seem to only be attracted to the most conventional, entirely status quo-informed ideal of the 'beautiful woman.' I think that's why we see so many 'body clones.'

I'm pretty sure (though not absolutely) that Anita Sarkeesian actually talked about this. So many slender ladies or somesuch. She's pretty much right on the mark with that one. I feel that for every one chubby, or stocky, or muscular woman you get you'll get over a hundred conventionally slender types.

It's weird, too. I mean, it's really weird. The straight guys I have as acquaintances aren't into that, they prefer chubby or more pear-shaped women, too. That might just be those I know, though. I figured those old standards had changed since the '90s, but I guess not?

Here's the thing, I guess I'm trying to say: Mainstream games today are all Leisure Suit Larry. All of them, and it's weeeeird.

Doesn't it strike anyone else as weird?

I mean, back in the day, I was playing the likes of Full Throttle and Day of the Tentacle. Consider the body types of Maureen Corley and Laverne from those games. Keep in mind that Full Throttle had Suzi! It was actually more unusual for games to be all about just slender ladies back in the '90s on PC.

I'm not sure when that happened.

Though I have an inkling it was around '06 when the PS3 and 360 dropped. That seemed to create a weird paradigm shift in gaming tastes. So it might've happened there. I can't say for sure, but that was a big event. Around that time, PC gaming was "dead" after enjoying an illustrious time in the '90s.

Anyone remember that? PC gaming being dead?

So everything is Leisure Suit Larry, now. That's weird. Which means that all the guy characters are basically Larry. I now understand why contemporary games put me off so much! Geralt is basically Larry! Everything is falling into place! I don't want to be Larry! I had enough of him in limited doses in the '90s!

Why is everything Leisure Suit Larry now?

Aaanyway, sorry. Even The Elder Scrolls Online, which is startlingly progressive, suffers with these problems. The chubbiness slider for women doesn't go up anywhere near what it does for guys, the musculature sliders for women also don't scale as much as they do for guys. Why? It's weird. And the vast, vast majority of NPC women are slender, too.

Basically, it's all Leisure Suit Larry now. And all the women are Leisure Suit Larry women. That's why my partner can't find anything she'd enjoy out of all of this. And it probably explains why there's this undercurrent of feeling like women are objectified by contemporary games.

When did every game designer become Larry Laffer?

It's so weird.

You pretty much answered your question. It is because the slender women are the idealized body type of females. Straight men( me include) likes looking at that or either are just use to it despite some annoyances. Buff /Butch women are outside the gender norm of what a woman should be and look like. Game companies also are a business, they do what they think works and it also run by mostly men. These men that also probably think that way of women in some capacity as well. To me it doesn't make sense that most women are slender in settings were having a model like figure doesn't fit the type of situations they have to deal with. However, it is so common most people don't question it.
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,695
I haven't played Bayonetta. I mean stuff like female characters being portrayed in a "sexy" way while they're being hurt or tortured. I think Anita Sarkeesian had a whole video on this.
Honestly this never happens in Bayonetta, camera angles are only sexy when she is in control and is the one doing all the ass kicking. When she is the one getting ass kicked you wont see her overly sexualised at all.

I do agree that this kind of stuff is overly creepy though.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
Funny you bring up butch women, Kapus. They're my partner's favourite. I'm pretty much effectively asexual, in that I don't care for sex, much, as a part of the physical world. Though I'm homosexual as a concept, in a way, after a fashion. My partner is much the same. We're both biromantic. It's a strange yet incredibly stable relationship. Going on six years, now.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. My partner loves buff women, chubby, or stocky women. Those are her fave when it comes to what she's attracted to. However, you don't really see a lot of that in the fanservice-y stuff because (for reasons???) most straight guys seem to only be attracted to the most conventional, entirely status quo-informed ideal of the 'beautiful woman.' I think that's why we see so many 'body clones.'

I'm pretty sure (though not absolutely) that Anita Sarkeesian actually talked about this. So many slender ladies or somesuch. She's pretty much right on the mark with that one. I feel that for every one chubby, or stocky, or muscular woman you get you'll get over a hundred conventionally slender types.

It's weird, too. I mean, it's really weird. The straight guys I have as acquaintances aren't into that, they prefer chubby or more pear-shaped women, too. That might just be those I know, though. I figured those old standards had changed since the '90s, but I guess not?

Here's the thing, I guess I'm trying to say: Mainstream games today are all Leisure Suit Larry. All of them, and it's weeeeird.

Doesn't it strike anyone else as weird?

I mean, back in the day, I was playing the likes of Full Throttle and Day of the Tentacle. Consider the body types of Maureen Corley and Laverne from those games. Keep in mind that Full Throttle had Suzi! It was actually more unusual for games to be all about just slender ladies back in the '90s on PC.

I'm not sure when that happened.

Though I have an inkling it was around '06 when the PS3 and 360 dropped. That seemed to create a weird paradigm shift in gaming tastes. So it might've happened there. I can't say for sure, but that was a big event. Around that time, PC gaming was "dead" after enjoying an illustrious time in the '90s.

Anyone remember that? PC gaming being dead?

So everything is Leisure Suit Larry, now. That's weird. Which means that all the guy characters are basically Larry. I now understand why contemporary games put me off so much! Geralt is basically Larry! Everything is falling into place! I don't want to be Larry! I had enough of him in limited doses in the '90s!

Why is everything Leisure Suit Larry now?

Aaanyway, sorry. Even The Elder Scrolls Online, which is startlingly progressive, suffers with these problems. The chubbiness slider for women doesn't go up anywhere near what it does for guys, the musculature sliders for women also don't scale as much as they do for guys. Why? It's weird. And the vast, vast majority of NPC women are slender, too.

Basically, it's all Leisure Suit Larry now. And all the women are Leisure Suit Larry women. That's why my partner can't find anything she'd enjoy out of all of this. And it probably explains why there's this undercurrent of feeling like women are objectified by contemporary games.

When did every game designer become Larry Laffer?

It's so weird.

Different audiences. Those adventure games you describe addressed players who grew with 80s computer games that had a a rich tradition in story and characters. Infocom text adventures, Microprose, Sierra, Horrorsoft, Lucasarts, Broderbund, Silmaris, Westwood etc Authors of the games you mentioned grew and shaped that environment.

Even earlier Leisure Suit Larry for its time was revolutionary. It contributed to the acceptance of games as a medium for adults, since a lot of retail store chains would reject it. In contrast to today, game became popular by word of mouth.

Newer consoles are for the younger generation that grew with Playstations and Nintendos, games that wouldnt even require reading skills or computer skills and expensive computers and were much more accessible.
 
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