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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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1. I'm asexual. How dare you try to imply I'm sexually repressing myself.
2. If you keep missing my point (then try and insult me), then we really have nothing more to say to each other.
Just like you removing the agency of real people for how they feel about things? For someone so against censorship you sure do seem to want to censor critical discussion.
Lets try to keep things in perspective. Right now, and for a long time, there really has been an incursion mostly on women's autonomy in real life as brought in more to light by the "me too" movement. Which isn't aided by media that perpetuates ideas that they are primarily sexual objects for the consumption of males. So there's a pretty large disparity in the consequences between what seems to concern you here and the continuation of objectification. Secondly, the designer might actually benefit their own work by designing in a manner wich is thematically consistent with the game as a whole. That is what's frustrating. No one is talking about taking away the autonomy of the artist, but the artist could help communicate themes in the game with more integrity. The designs could help present the story elements with a straight face rather than with detrimental low brow boob and ass shots. It's s a critique, not a call for sencorship.
Oops my bad, I probably conflated your response to me with another user. I reread your response and I think it makes sense in what you tried to say. I still read someone saying that based on her face she shouldn't be on that list but it wasn't you and that made me think of 2B. Regardless, sorry for the confusion.
Okay, what do you think the authorial intent is when a camera is shoved right up on a character's boobs or ass with nothing else in focus, then?
Don't be disingenuous like this, it's infuriating and demeaning to our intelligence. You can enjoy such shots but to say the intent isn't "hey, look at this character's bosom/ass" is either naive or dishonest.
I do find it really bizarre that the more shy variety of "Yamato Nadeshiko" characters or even just your typical anxious messes seem to end up in skimpy outfits, when in reality, it's almost always going to be opposite. Like, I'll defend characters like Ii Naotora from Samurai Warriors* given my own anxiety disorder, but I can't begin to defend their designs, nor will I.
*Like good God Naotora's design is a mess. Does someone who runs around apologizing for having to beat you up in the name of her clan and is otherwise very polite seem like someone who would wear that? Of course, they excuse it by saying her grandfather gave her the armor claiming it's an heirloom, but given other characters question her attire I'm thinking they're going with a "haha her grandpa is a perv" jokey explanation which is... very creepy.
No no, you see, censorship of discussion that may effect society as a whole (even if the singular discussion itself doesn't directly impact it right away) is totally fine, but when it means I won't get a panty shot in a video game, it's a mortal sin!!!
"The people calling out objectification are the true objectifiers."
That's your assumption. Japan is a different culture. They have considerably different opinions on the nature of nudity, which is both more reserved and less reserved than most Western countries. I lived there for six months and you can walk into a bookstore and see boobs on the cover of a book right next the children's section. They bathe - naked! - with their children. Communal bathing is a universal Japanese bonding experience. Hell, one time I was peeing in a men's room when a cleaning lady came in and started scrubbing toilets as if I wasn't there. Another bit of culture clash for me was the willingness for men to pee anywhere on anything, even if a mob of people are standing right behind them.
And this is where you are projecting. You are answering the question from your perspective. The designers themselves obviously don't see this dichotomy. They didn't go, geez, it doesn't make sense but I really want to have some big boobs here. They are aware of the themes of their game and the designs employed in it, and if they didn't see the same problems you do, maybe it is because they aren't looking at it through your eyes. Instead of constantly trying to put the designers in your shoes, why don't you try putting yourself in theirs?
I'm not sure you know what you are talking about with the "typical Japanese demure personality" thing. If you ever find yourself in Japan, see if you can't find a phonebooth and look in it. Dollars to donuts, it is completely wallpapered with packs of tissues with naked ladies on it.
I mean, there's the fact that many of these characters were made by guest's artists who were given free reign. It's entirely possible they didn't know the context of the story. But then again, what do I know? I'm apparently sexually repressing myself and too stupid to see clearly.
Ah yes, a plea for empathy coming from someone ignoring empathy towards a gender constantly objectified.
I think this is kinda presented in the wrong way. I think the underlying angle is to appeal to some sort of latent discomfort from men in general thinking of other men in a sexual manner. Which to certain men that certainly works, but some dudes on the other side would then say "That's so funny! I wouldn't mind that at all cause it makes me laugh. Homo erotica is hilarious!" It perhaps arguably gets into some sort of unspoken appeals to homophobia - even if not intentional.
I think it would be better to present it in the context of: but what about if the social roles of men and women in real society were reversed... and this sort of presentation in media happened pretty much forever? For how long would this be funny then?
Or maybe I'm overthinking it. IDK. Something about the approach never sat completely right with me and I think I just formed my reason for it just this minute. lol
You're not wrong. It's never going to feel quite the same because the context we're viewing it in is completely different from the absolute flood of sexualized female character designs and presentations. We basically need the audience to imagine "what if 75% of all games were like this", which is not an easy task, to say the least.
An interesting way of trying to get through to other people is to have them imagine every music video they saw was "Its Raining Men" (Hallelujah). Women could be any size, shape, or color, but all men were reduced to eye candy. Not even specific eye candy but general eye candy.
That was really interesting, thanks for penning it.
This video is missing a cutscene where all the women are dressed decently and are acting out a completely serious scene which then proceeds to the camera panning over to Mario hanging out in the background in his underwear.
To be fair, I think you can do this in Super Mario Odyssey.
Well, cutscenes are played with whatever your character wears and one outfit is just Mario in his underwear so...I don't know if there is a scene with just women being serious though.
to be fair this does not happen simply cause there is no demand for it (out of jokes tho). when you think about what women want (or material dedicated to women, 50 Shades of gray/ otome games/ shoujo) in a men in a work of fiction, its not the same equivalent to what is show to guy but gender reverted.
on the other hand, this exist
Squidi
If that's true, why is otaku becoming more and more of a taboo? Yes, Japan may have different clothing codes based on region and context, but Japanese women clearly aren't okay with all of the otaku fapfests, either. This is something I oft hear from one Japanese acquaintance who's deeply ashamed of otaku.
Televator
You are correct. That's why you also have to play with gender roles in order for them to get it. What I'm getting at here is that groups like MRA and the Alt-Right are so bound up in the status quo, conformity to old world gender roles, and toxic mascilinity/femininity that they see settings where women are submissive, aubservient, and slavish to men as normal. Even when the women are wearing deeply objectifying outfits.
So you turn that ugliness on its head!
Not only do you do the sexualised Mario thing, there, but you also have him behave in a submissive, slavish, and subservient way to a competent Peach who's going on madcap adventures to save him from a female Bowser. They'd lose their minds over that subversion. Then you'd get to ask them why. They're already okay with that happening to women, so what's changed? The answers would be incredibly revealing.
If that's true, why is otaku becoming more and more of a taboo? Yes, Japan may have different clothing codes based on region and context, but Japanese women clearly aren't okay with all of the otaku fapfests, either. This is something I oft hear from one Japanese acquaintance who's deeply ashamed of otaku.
Televator
You are correct. That's why you also have to play with gender roles in order for them to get it. What I'm getting at here is that groups like MRA and the Alt-Right are so bound up in the status quo, conformity to old world gender roles, and toxic mascilinity/femininity that they see settings where women are submissive, aubservient, and slavish to men as normal. Even when the women are wearing deeply objectifying outfits.
So you turn that ugliness on its head!
Not only do you do the sexualised Mario thing, there, but you also have him behave in a submissive, slavish, and subservient way to a competent Peach who's going on madcap adventures to save him from a female Bowser. They'd lose their minds over that subversion. Then you'd get to ask them why. They're already okay with that happening to women, so what's changed? The answers would be incredibly revealing.
No, you're totally right here. It's like when men say they wouldn't mind being catcalled by women constantly. The difference lies in the fact that most men are physically stronger than most women, which completely changes the context. I'm very weak physically and catcalling is terrifying to me because I know that if any man wanted to attack me, there's nothing I could do about it. And this is true for the majority of women. Men just don't get it.
Men being the subservient gender is what made Drakengard 3 fascinating to me. I mean, there was definitely more to that game than just that, but it took me a little bit to realize that the game was playing with that subversion.
It gave me a perspective I never got before. And that was being able to experience getting rewarded with a sexualized character as a prize that was vaguely trying to be attractive to me. I never exactly felt that reward playing as a man who was given a love interest girl at the end for saving the day and all that jazz.
Not saying that it's okay to do it just because the genders were swapped, but it was very... odd...
It gave me a perspective I never got before. And that was being able to experience getting rewarded with a sexualized character as a prize that was vaguely trying to be attractive to me. I never exactly felt that reward playing as a man who was given a love interest girl at the end for saving the day and all that jazz.
Not saying that it's okay to do it just because the genders were swapped, but it was very... odd...
What changed my perspective on context was mentioning, way back in my twenties, that one of my favourite things to do on a weekend afternoon if I had nothing else on was to take a book or a paper to the pub for a quiet drink on my own with a little background noise. My female friends (and later my wife) all said that they would never do that due to the assumption that a) they had to be waiting for someone or b) that they were inviting everyone to try and chat them up. Maybe it's just the town we lived in at the time, but it was interesting that they were historically such 'male' social spaces and are now on the decline, whereas now we have coffee shops every 20 metres in town centres offering social spaces but without that one-sided aura. Some pubs are better now (our new local is lovely) but there are still some we go into and they are clearly more or less friendly places for some people than others.
I found this old article about the "controversy" that the anime Free! triggered,.
It kinda shows the hypocrisy of some male anime fans:
Free!: the anime causing straight male geeks to explode in utter hypocrisy
It kinda shows the hypocrisy of some male anime fans:
Free!: the anime causing straight male geeks to explode in utter hypocrisy
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I thought the contrast between four fairly atheletic but normal-looking chaps in swimming trunks (well, they are atheletes) and the horde of anime girls in various exaggerated body shapes and head sizes and poses was quite telling there.
free was extremely well received by the community tho. high production values, sound track and animation. would have helped tho if Haruka were not half a souless fish character. some shows that are "aimed to women" surprisingly end up being popular to guys too. like [K]..although this one has.. that character
on the other hand the DIVE anime did not grab the same attention from any side
Kyoanime likes to stick to "realistic" body proportion..aside from Joke Characters
Oh wow, that Tumblr link. I might give Free! a shot now, it's on Funimation Now. Thanks!
The part that's really telling to me is the fact that they look their age or even slightly older, whereas popular female characters usually look like 12 year olds (well, their general facial features at least).
Yeah but it had some reactions like the ones described in the article. It's possible that it was just a very vocal minority though. To be honest, I don't know how much the hate against Free! was widespread back then. Were there negative reactions to Yuri on Ice btw?
I was thinking about this the other day when watching Frozen with my daughter for the xxxth time and the women on it seemed to have their eye sockets taking up a quarter of their skull. It could have been a great alien autopsy plot twist.
It's like the same facial treatment as baby animals by cartoonists, but with added undertones of infantilisation of half of the adults. Looks especially weird when side-by-side with a male love interest of the same age but with a different eye-to-head proportion, as one looks distinctly more childlike than the other.
Totally. Popular anime female characters have bigger eyes and chubby cheeks, sometimes complete with "childish" behavior (think Zelda in that BOTW cutscene with the frog). It's so creepy. There's of course a subset of women who like younger looking male characters (Free! and Yuri on Ice have the token *shudders* shotas), but it's way more widespread with men.
anime ultimately lives and die by production values or plot, whether the main appeal is aimed to women or men has little concern to most people as long as the show is good so in those cases you see guys liking shows like Free/ Yuri on Ice (puns do are throw here and there) or women liking shows like Kill La Kill.
so no, aside for Isolated cherry picked cases, YoI was extremely well received
free goes more for the "bromanship" type or relation, Yuri does goes straight to not being straight (pun intended)
Not really, except when it came to Crunchyroll award's results where it beat Mob Psycho 100 in animation.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-fe...l-anime-awards-the-results-are-in-see-who-won
It became vile at almost every anime forum for a couple of days.
Well there was Final Fantasy Mobius . . I still remember the outcry
Reigen is excellent. God, I enjoyed Mob Psycho 100 anime so much.
I imagine that's what happens when everyone's favorite anime does not win, but in a case of an anime like Yuri on Ice, I'm a bit scared to read the negative reactions to it, I can already imagine what they look like, eh.
I imagine that's what happens when everyone's favorite anime does not win, but in a case of an anime like Yuri on Ice, I'm a bit scared to read the negative reactions to it, I can already imagine what they look like, eh.
It had it's fair share of hate when it was airing, but that goes for any popular anime.
Well there was Final Fantasy Mobius . . I still remember the outcry
It's interesting to me that there was any outrage at all because I'd argue, perhaps wrongly so, that that design is not immensely more sexualized or less practical than the design of, for example Vaan from Final Fantasy XII. Now that you do bring it up and illustrate your point with those images, I can see where the complains would stem from but to me that's a mild offense compared to the way that some female characters are sexualized or otherwise represented in games. I guess it does serve as a decent example though.
*Sigh*
Why are there always 'concerned' posts like these from men in threads such as this? Do you really think you're fighting for the interests of women?
I'm not surprised you were banned, but I have to admit, I'm a bit surprised it took this long. Wonder if you'll use these 24 hours to reflect a bit.
Probably not, going by everything you've been saying before in this thread.
This is actually due to the golden ratio rule when designing characters for animation.
The golden ratio is an ideal facial proportion for a character, which usually makes it more appealing for the audience.
The most obvious example is Disney, which has it down to a T.
If they had normal sized eyes, if would not only a lot weirder, but they also wouldn't be as expressive and as endearing.
Like the bottom picture has a big uncanny valley effect and wouldn't appeal to nearly as many children as the original.
The Frozen male characters do look a bit more realistic (smaller eyes), but they aren't the star of the show, Anna and Elsa are.
If you look back to Aladdin, which obviously had a male lead, his eyes and Jasmine's are much more similar in size. It's not about the lead characters having bigger eyes because they are the star of the show, it's about female characters being associated with 'cute' and 'youth' like bloody kittens. If Kristoff was the star of Frozen, they wouldn't make his eyes four times the size just because he was 'the star'.This is actually due to the golden ratio rule when designing characters for animation.
The golden ratio is an ideal facial proportion for a character, which usually makes it more appealing for the audience.
The most obvious example is Disney, which has it down to a T.
If they had normal sized eyes, if would not only a lot weirder, but they also wouldn't be as expressive and as endearing.
Like the bottom picture has a big uncanny valley effect and wouldn't appeal to nearly as many children as the original.
The Frozen male characters do look a bit more realistic (smaller eyes), but they aren't the star of the show, Anna and Elsa are.
Even amongst Disney films, those eyes have been getting bigger. I wouldn't have said that earlier female leads are sitting in the uncanny valley because their eyes are smaller than the Frozen sisters yet still larger than 'realistic' proportions, it's more that the modern approach takes that 'selling cute' ratio even further with the female leads making them look like almost a whole different species to the guys.
By Frozen 6 I'm expecting Elsa to be a Cyclops with that blonde braid surrounding a single huge merged eyeball embedded in her skull like so much pimento stuffed in an olive, and Anna to be dragged off by the Snowmen in Black for further investigation as to her extraterrestrial origins. Make them Shield agents. Expanded universe etc. :D
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