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Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
On the example of Overwatch: Would you be ok with a system where you buy a season pass every year that gives you all of the year's seasonal content once it comes out, but you can still earn random loot through playing the game? That would be a system where there's a clear cap of how much you have to spend to get everything while still offering a way to get skins without spending any money.
I'd have no problem with this, unless I'm missing the hook. Many f2p games that have characters locked behind a grind sell bundles too to unlock every character. I think Paladins and Quake Champions does this. Though I think that atleast Quake Champions also sells loot boxes, unless I'm mistaken. I looked it up one time but it's so very complicated with different currencies, rewards, purchases...kinda like with Heroes of the Storm now.

While not about multiplayer games, I'm really fine with Bethesda creation club too. It gets a lot of hate, but I can't find any reason to hate it personally. Maybe they could get rid of the Bethesda currency and instead put price tags with actual money to the items. Would be more straightforward.
 
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MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,303
Belgium
I never had any problems with the way the expansions worked for GTA IV and Red Dead Redemption. I didn't mind paying for clearly newly created concent which were vast in scope and had substantial playing time.
I did buy most level DLC for most of the games I played, but stopped after a while because I either didn't play the DLC months after finishing the game or when it was clear that they started to cut out content and sell their DLC for 32kb unlock files (Beautiful Katamari comes to mind) for insane prices.

The biggest problem with lootboxes for me is that instead of having a specific mode revolve around them, whole games are created around those lootboxes and the balance of those games is completely gone and they become almost unplayable without buying those lootboxes.

The last FPS with microtransactions I have played is Rainbox Six Siege (a year ago or something and it was probably since Left 4 Dead 2 that I had played an FPS before that), and while I never bought those microtransactions myself, at least you can buy the things you are interested in in that model. You can unlock everything with in game currency (although you have to play somewhat much to unlock newer characters), but you can also buy a sort of season pass which unlocks at least the operators itself (as far as I remember, never bought it myself). I have less problems with that model. I still suspect people are spending money they don't have on it, but at least in Siege you can choose whatever you buy and it's not decided by the RNG gods.

edit:
I also played a lot of GTA Online on Xbox 360 when it released. Haven't played it in a long time and I don't know how it evolved, but that was certainly playable without buying anything with real money. I didn't feel back then that stuff was too expensive, but maybe that changed (didn't play any heists as they weren't released yet).
 

Sheldon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,331
Ruhrgebiet, Germany
The problem is that these systems, with the exception of expansions / season passes only work in GaaS, not regular AAA releases where the budgets are often higher and additional monetization would be harder without compromising the coherency of the single player experience. Maybe a retail price hike is unavoidable if you want to keep the industry sustainable without having to decrease development budgets, but if one game starts aiming for 80$, all games would at some point, just because people are willing to pay it, even if the budget doesn't necessitate it for all of them.

On the example of Overwatch: Would you be ok with a system where you buy a season pass every year that gives you all of the year's seasonal content once it comes out, but you can still earn random loot through playing the game? That would be a system where there's a clear cap of how much you have to spend to get everything while still offering a way to get skins without spending any money.

I mean, microtransactions in general don't work in regular AAA releases, yet Activision, EA and Ubisoft are forcing loot boxes into single-player games. Forcing a clothing or weapon shop into Shadow of War wouldn't be any harder than making up an orcs-in-a-box vendor.

Development costs outgrowing retail price is a self-made problem. Big publishers kept raising player expectations beyond what 60$ could sustain. Now big publishers are trying to solve the problem by pushing for more microtransactions than the player base can sustain.

I don't know what kind of price hike the american consumer would stomach, but over here game prices went up by around 10 Euro with the launch of PS4 and Xbox One.

GaaS games like Overwatch have better options, especially since they want to keep the entry cost low to get more people into the ecosystem. What I'm okay with is fluid and depends on how much I enjoy a game, like a developer and my general degree of self-loathing on any given day. I'm trying to think of an existing game with a model much like what you describe and can't come up with an example. It sounds preferable to Overwatch's current business model, assuming drop rates and availability of free loot boxes are not tuned any less generously, though selling a year's worth of content only as one big package would probably be priced so high the option may as well not exist for 90% of the player base.

Semi-unrelated question but since I don't play Overwatch myself and I'm now curious: Does Overwatch give players the option to turn off cosmetics so only each hero's base character models are shown in game? I felt put off enough by how TF2's hats altered the character's famous silhouettes, I can't help but ask what harm entirely different colored skins do to readability in a shooter.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,414
you can turn them off if you're hosting a custom game, but otherwise i don't think so. each character is readily identifiable in their size, shape and movement so it hasn't been a problem for me with any of the different skins at all yet.
 

Nikpls

Member
Oct 25, 2017
598
I mean, microtransactions in general don't work in regular AAA releases, yet Activision, EA and Ubisoft are forcing loot boxes into single-player games. Forcing a clothing or weapon shop into Shadow of War wouldn't be any harder than making up an orcs-in-a-box vendor.

Development costs outgrowing retail price is a self-made problem. Big publishers kept raising player expectations beyond what 60$ could sustain. Now big publishers are trying to solve the problem by pushing for more microtransactions than the player base can sustain.

I don't know what kind of price hike the american consumer would stomach, but over here game prices went up by around 10 Euro with the launch of PS4 and Xbox One.

GaaS games like Overwatch have better options, especially since they want to keep the entry cost low to get more people into the ecosystem. What I'm okay with is fluid and depends on how much I enjoy a game, like a developer and my general degree of self-loathing on any given day. I'm trying to think of an existing game with a model much like what you describe and can't come up with an example. It sounds preferable to Overwatch's current business model, assuming drop rates and availability of free loot boxes are not tuned any less generously, though selling a year's worth of content only as one big package would probably be priced so high the option may as well not exist for 90% of the player base.

Semi-unrelated question but since I don't play Overwatch myself and I'm now curious: Does Overwatch give players the option to turn off cosmetics so only each hero's base character models are shown in game? I felt put off enough by how TF2's hats altered the character's famous silhouettes, I can't help but ask what harm entirely different colored skins do to readability in a shooter.

It's absolutely a self-made problem, but how do you escape the spiral of player's expectations of increasingly higher budgets without either plateauing on where it's currently at or raise the retail price in NA?

You can't turn off skins in OW unfortunately, but they try to make the skins follow the same silhouette as the base model, and you shouldn't have much trouble recognizing characters from afar. Even if a skin changes the appearance dramatically, you would still be able to tell who it is by their proportions and animations. That was actually the reason why they gave moira the naruto run: https://kotaku.com/why-overwatchs-moira-runs-like-naruto-1820315355
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,303
Belgium
It's absolutely a self-made problem, but how do you escape the spiral of player's expectations of increasingly higher budgets without either plateauing on where it's currently at or raise the retail price in NA?

You can't turn off skins in OW unfortunately, but they try to make the skins follow the same silhouette as the base model, and you shouldn't have much trouble recognizing characters from afar. Even if a skin changes the appearance dramatically, you would still be able to tell who it is by their proportions and animations. That was actually the reason why they gave moira the naruto run: https://kotaku.com/why-overwatchs-moira-runs-like-naruto-1820315355
They can start cutting in the insane marketing budgets some of those games have to begin with. If you can't be profitable for a game like Call Of Duty with the sales numbers it gets (without microtransaction and all that stuff), you are doing something very wrong. If that's really the case, they are pumping too much money into their games and they should stop doing that.

I think those are lies by the publishers and they just want more money.
 
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janusff

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,127
Austin, TX
Looking forward to that inevitable Last Jedi discussion video.
Allies_Assemble.gif
 

Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,098
I think microtransactions + SaaS are sort of a necessary evil for the industry.

But I think lootboxes are digital gambling and that either both should be legalized (a.k.a. "yes, we as a society are fine with exploiting people with gambling addiction"), or neither
 

Sheldon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,331
Ruhrgebiet, Germany
It's absolutely a self-made problem, but how do you escape the spiral of player's expectations of increasingly higher budgets without either plateauing on where it's currently at or raise the retail price in NA?

Those are two reasonable solutions you rule out. If publishers exclude two acceptable anwers, the search for a third good answer to the problem becomes harder. Over in the general forum ZhugeEx posted a thread about why single-player narrative-driven games aren't being made my big third party publishers. In there he mentions that what players value in games these days is hours of engagement. It's not the first time I've heard something similar from industry analysts or studio executives. And everytime I ask myself how much of this is really about what players want out of the games they spend money on and how much of it is a symptom of how publishers themselves have been selling games to their customers as things with "value". But I really don't have the industry insight for a deep dive into that ocean of complexities.

Thanks for the interesting Moira titbit. Tho now I wonder what the graphic artists would say if someone else at Blizzard proposed putting unique run animations into loot boxes...
 

Sephiroth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,026
I just finished watching Easy Update. I am gutted by that ending.

Does this mean no more mean jokes on Kyle? That was the only reason I pledged.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
I missed a few pages over the weekend, but just wanted to pop in and say EZUpdate was phenomenal. I've watched it three times already and it's still hilarious.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,956
i tried Monster Hunter World, it didn't click with me. maybe because it's my first monster hunter and i'm missing something, i don't know. i'l try getting in the tutorial tomorrow and see things a little more deeper
 

JayC3

bork bork
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
3,857
I love all the skits we've been getting out of EZ update recently. It's filling that Final Bosman shaped hole in my heart.
Yeah, I was thinking that Easy Update was a good replacement for all the bonus bits that we used to get.
I love that this is your official ice breaker comment.
I remember that the town meme came from Huber. Does anyone remember when it happened and why it came up in the first place?

Edit: Also, when Dreams comes out, I want a diorama-style group stream where they showcase something that they've created in the game based on some predetermined theme.
 
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RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,154
At the risk of sounding like a gullible idiot: is Kyle really upset? I don't know what to think. It seems like such a weird gag to pull and I don't find it funny at all so I hesitate to think its an act but it just seems so out of character.
 

dickroach

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
953
At the risk of sounding like a gullible idiot: is Kyle really upset? I don't know what to think. It seems like such a weird gag to pull and I don't find it funny at all so I hesitate to think its an act but it just seems so out of character.
...it was a sketch. no he was not really upset.
 

abrack

Unshakable Resolve
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,785
DFW
At the risk of sounding like a gullible idiot: is Kyle really upset? I don't know what to think. It seems like such a weird gag to pull and I don't find it funny at all so I hesitate to think its an act but it just seems so out of character.

The funniest bits have a nugget of truth in them. It was definitely a bit, and I thought it was hilarious.
 
Oct 27, 2017
277
At the risk of sounding like a gullible idiot: is Kyle really upset? I don't know what to think. It seems like such a weird gag to pull and I don't find it funny at all so I hesitate to think its an act but it just seems so out of character.
It was pretty rough, but I think we should cut Ian some slack. 4 divorces is surely something that would mess a person up.
 

TheDarkKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,525
Dreams is the game of psx. It had an amazing showing and everyone I've talked to has walked away impressed

And Jones has already said when Dreams comes out he's making it a weekly stream
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,064
I remember that the town meme came from Huber. Does anyone remember when it happened and why it came up in the first place?
The original question had to do with Valkyria Chronicles around the time the remaster came out...think they were arguing over something touchy on the podcast or something.
 

klastical

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,712
i tried Monster Hunter World, it didn't click with me. maybe because it's my first monster hunter and i'm missing something, i don't know. i'l try getting in the tutorial tomorrow and see things a little more deeper
Monster Hunter has notoriously bad demos, this one is no different. It teaches you nothing about the game so if you go into it not knowing what your doing your going to have a bad time. Go into the training area and off to the right there is a little camp with a chest. Click on the chest and hit change equipment. You can change between all of the weapon types here. I suggest trying out the long sword. It's the red katana looking sword. It's beginner friendly. Pressing O+R2 I believe does an attack and auto dodges away so it's very useful for chiping away at enemys.

If the monster seems to have steam coming out of his head his is angry and its best to take a more defensive role until it calms down. If it's sweating/drooling its getting tired so keep wailing away.

You can cut off different body parts of monsters to take off a big chunk of health. The tail is the most obvious part. Keep hacking away at monsters tails until you cut them off.

Dodging is very important. Think of this like dark souls, get in a hit or two then get out.

Finally in the top left corner of the screen you will see a sword icon that is flashing green. If that icon turns yellow you need to use a whetstone to sharpen your blade again. You do less damage when your sword isn't at maximum sharpness.

Good luck!

I've only played 30 hours of monster hunter before so if any of this is incorrect I apologize and anybody can feel free to correct me.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,303
Belgium
It was pretty rough, but I think we should cut Ian some slack. 4 divorces is surely something that would mess a person up.
I think you missed one. I thought they corrected themselves on one of the later podcast to say it was 5 divorces.

Btw, I loved the EZA Update episode (Kyle is one hell of an actor, I read about it here before I saw the episode and I still was surprised by it as it looked very real indeed).
 
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Tophat Jones

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,946
That was hilarious but the end was too awkward to be funny. I believe you guys that it was part of the joke but Kyle was acting way too well for me to laugh at it.
 

MrMette

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,303
Belgium
That was hilarious but the end was too awkward to be funny. I believe you guys that it was part of the joke but Kyle was acting way too well for me to laugh at it.
I am not saying I was laughing at it either, even though I knew it was a joke. It looked very real and I loved it (yes it was still somewhat awkward to watch as I had conflicting feelings knowing it was an act).
 
Oct 26, 2017
912
That was hilarious but the end was too awkward to be funny. I believe you guys that it was part of the joke but Kyle was acting way too well for me to laugh at it.

I enjoyed the talent/experience needed for the skit.

It's rare to see a gaming crew have someone with real acting chops. Actually, EZA has many huge creative talents (acting, singing, crafting dioramas, etc) and that's something that sets them apart from other groups.
 

giallo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,224
Seoul
I enjoyed the talent/experience needed for the skit.

It's rare to see a gaming crew have someone with real acting chops. Actually, EZA has many huge creative talents (acting, singing, crafting dioramas, etc) and that's something that sets them apart from other groups.

This is one of the main reasons I love the EZA crew. There are some HIGHLY talented people in the group. They never fail to amaze me with what they come up with.
 

Trejo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,830
Add me to the list of people who thinks one of the reasons the Allies are so fun to watch is that their talent pool is vast and varied.
 

munchie64

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,541
Glad to see Ben mention Doki Doki Literature Club on the last Paper Mario stream. Would love a full stream of that.
 

Piichan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
901
Tokyo
The past two Easy Updates have been incredible. Ian is a goddamn genius.

The last part of the latest episode sounds like it could've been a bit from Bos v Woz.
 

issa

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,030
Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
Oh no, I need to see Allies responses before getting angry myself. I think it depends on the people in the panel how they will respond. I could see Brad, Jones and even Huber being okay with Overwatch loot boxes. I think they have before. But they are also smart guys, with reasoning and discussion I'm sure they would see the "evil" in that too.
They didn't comment on that part since it wasn't the main question.

It's predatory on some level, sure.
And we're done. This is the part I had the most issue with in your original question.

Since I started the discussion I'm compelled to reply to the other parts even though most of the things I had to say were already said:
  • Preying on the rich is still predatory. Robin Hooding in real life is neither legal nor ethical.
  • Some people care deeply about cosmetics items. The distinction between cosmetics and functional items is only from a game design and balance perspective, not an ethical one. Plus Overwatch's brand and appeal is heavily tied to its characters and how they look.
  • The game was full priced on console.
  • It was console manufacturers and publishers who set up these high expectations to sell you consoles and games.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
I'm surprised that some people found the ending 'too real'. Even though Kyle's acting was great, it was still obviously a joke, so I was laughing non stop throughout. "No, everything is bad now." I don't think that's something Kyle would ever realistically say lol.
 
Oct 27, 2017
977
That final sketch at the end of Easy Update was incredible. Kyle is a great actor! I miss the Final Bosman style skits so keep em coming!

Wonderful framing of the shot as well Ian, having Huber in the mirror was really cool.
 

ShadyK54

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,272
Texas
I'm surprised that some people found the ending 'too real'. Even though Kyle's acting was great, it was still obviously a joke, so I was laughing non stop throughout. "No, everything is bad now." I don't think that's something Kyle would ever realistically say lol.

When Ian "apologizes" & Kyle walks out of the bathroom, it sounds like Kyle is about to break & start laughing lol.

Also, I love the touches of Kyle pointing the camera down when he starts getting mad. It was too good lol.
 
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