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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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I get where he's coming from, actually. Quite a lot of the time, the people creating this content aren't necessarily doing so because they want to chase otaku money - they're doing it because they're longtime otaku themselves, and they're fans of the same industry that produces the content they consume, so they produce what they know.
Falcom's Tokyo Xanadu ex+ was a product of the 'younger' staff members at Falcom as a passion project. Guess what? It was a modern-day game that was set in Tokyo and had a billion light novel tropes, an Asuna from SAO-like heroine, using smartphones to summon weapons to fight monsters in another pocket dimension they had to travel to E.G. Persona, social links, school life/management, et cetera.
Kondo left it to the younger staff to create what they wanted to see, as a snapshot of where Falcom was as a company, and that's what they came up with since it's an amalgam of all the media they consume. So yeah.
I understand that, but I don't see how that makes it okay? Unless you didn't mean it as a justification and I misunderstood, in which case I apologize.
Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly, but my point is that hot springs and similar tropes in anime pander to what heterosexual men, or at least male heterosexual anime fans, find sexually appealing. At this point, it's not just a trope, it's a cliche, and a rather uncomfortable one at that. It's gratuitous, and it's something whose presence often hurts the artistic credibility of a show or game that uses it.
Can it be misogynistic if it was designed by a female artist?
It absolutely can but I don't think any of us know nearly enough about the artist in question to have that conversation here. It would be different if we were discussing a prominent auteur female filmmaker who's work we could more fully analyze
China/ Japan finally getting out of its comfort Zone and making anime more global (distribution wise, not content)
Not that is impossible, but being designed by a woman herself removes many of the plausible stigmas one might believe such a design is carrying on
TL;DR: Possible but unlikely
True. I was just asking because I was unsure of how it all works.
I feel like I made the right choice passing on this. I don't remember the original Xenoblade being like this, it's really sad.Dunno if this has been posted but just saw this on twitter.
I generally dont mind tiddies in videogames, but bwahaha... this is pretty ridiculous.
I think it's important to move away from "one member of marginalized group said/did something, so it's ok" arguments in general. These are used by right wingers to justify their shitty views too often. "This one woman things feminism is cancer! This one black guy thinks BLM is a hate movement! So we are entirely justified in calling feminism cancer, despite millions of other women disagreeing!" - I think it's important to know the intentions of the creator, but these things are too complicated to have the voice of a single person speak for an entire group.
on a general view, yes, that will be akin to use em as token, but when it comes to specific example, like this case, pin point into "Is Snow Bunny a misogynistic design by the artist", the artist being a woman herself helps to tilt the balance about that
Unless we get by word of the designer, what the intention was. I believe the best answer will always be
I don't see how it can't be okay? Not liking it is one thing but if we're trying to argue that it's wrong for Nintendo to put stuff like this in their games I think we're drawing the line here.
1) why do people find game characters attractive? They are a bunch of spritesDunno if this has been posted but just saw this on twitter.
I generally dont mind tiddies in videogames, but bwahaha... this is pretty ridiculous.
2) how can anyone find this particular model attractive?
3) it's just plain ridiculous and wrong.
You really don't see how pedophilic designs cross the line?
Oh! Sorry I thought you were talking about fan service designs in general. Yeah the pedophillic designs are gross and really shouldn't be in this game.
1. We are not attracted to people for their personalities. We've been jacking off to paintings since we learned how to draw on the walls of our caves. Hell, some jerk off to written word.
2. Is this your first day on the internet? Check out any booru site (hentai image boards), this body type is incredibly popular. People idolize female form, and this is just one of the extremes.
3. Ridiculous? To an extent. As ridiculous as any over the top form can be. Wrong? That's up to you. The people who approved the game and many of its players don't think so.
If you don't mind the ridiculousness that's one thing, and the point around which these arguments are framed. If you don't see it as ridiculous in the first place, I don't know how to say it other than that your calibration is wildly different from mine and, I'm reasonably certain, most people
Imagination I guess. They don't necessarily find the character attractive but what they represent.
I remember an anime explaining this stuff.
I'm just glad people are attracted to Snow Goat Lady despite her obvious scoliosis, really brave of Nintendo to put a character like that in their game
Reading this thread kinda hurts me emotionally, but I know I should keep following this kind of talk.
I'll say that I'm enjoying Xenoblade 2 immensely. I love the characters, the art direction and the story, Takahashi's approach to storytelling is probably among my faves in the industry, even when anime tropes are in place. Heck, I love anime tropes if they're well told. I love the screaming, the fighting for justice, the chasing your dreams-kinda messages, the rocking music...But I'm also aware of its fanservice-y shortcomings.
I admit that I'm not as bothered or as outraged by its more controversial designs as many here, but I know that this kind of discussion SHOULD happen, if I want this kind of storytelling that I love so much to progress and improve in thefuture. Reading the thread hurts because, in a way, I feel guilty that I don't feel angry about the otaku-pandering, or that I'm even loving this game to begin with, even with its more controversial elements in place.
But this good. I shouldn't stop loving the things I love, but at the same time I should keep in mind what can be improved about them. I don't like fan service. I'm all for giving a character some kind of sensuality if the artist wants to, but not if it gets in the way of the narrative or if it ruins the characters making them empty shells. Luckily, at least so far, despite her design "flaws", Pyra seems to be written well, as is the rule with Takahashi's characters most of the time.
This is a highly complicated matter and I'm aware that I shouldn't apply what I feel to everyone else. Just because I'm not hugely outraged about the designs, while I'm not a fan of them, doesn't mean it isn't right to be, or to demand more sensitive character designs in general.
So yeah, I guess what I want to say is: good job with this thread. I'm glad it exists as stuff like this will ultimately push things forward and I can only be happy about it. Just because people are angry at the designs I know nothing will take away the tropes and the elements I love so much, as they aren't tied to fanservice or stuff like that. I can love the game, while still being conscious of its problems and controversies.
I'll say that I'm enjoying Xenoblade 2 immensely. I love the characters, the art direction and the story, Takahashi's approach to storytelling is probably among my faves in the industry, even when anime tropes are in place. Heck, I love anime tropes if they're well told. I love the screaming, the fighting for justice, the chasing your dreams-kinda messages, the rocking music...But I'm also aware of its fanservice-y shortcomings.
I admit that I'm not as bothered or as outraged by its more controversial designs as many here, but I know that this kind of discussion SHOULD happen, if I want this kind of storytelling that I love so much to progress and improve in thefuture. Reading the thread hurts because, in a way, I feel guilty that I don't feel angry about the otaku-pandering, or that I'm even loving this game to begin with, even with its more controversial elements in place.
But this good. I shouldn't stop loving the things I love, but at the same time I should keep in mind what can be improved about them. I don't like fan service. I'm all for giving a character some kind of sensuality if the artist wants to, but not if it gets in the way of the narrative or if it ruins the characters making them empty shells. Luckily, at least so far, despite her design "flaws", Pyra seems to be written well, as is the rule with Takahashi's characters most of the time.
This is a highly complicated matter and I'm aware that I shouldn't apply what I feel to everyone else. Just because I'm not hugely outraged about the designs, while I'm not a fan of them, doesn't mean it isn't right to be, or to demand more sensitive character designs in general.
So yeah, I guess what I want to say is: good job with this thread. I'm glad it exists as stuff like this will ultimately push things forward and I can only be happy about it. Just because people are angry at the designs I know nothing will take away the tropes and the elements I love so much, as they aren't tied to fanservice or stuff like that. I can love the game, while still being conscious of its problems and controversies.
Huge but inexplicably well-supported breasts? Lingerie-esque skin patterns? A claw on the heel that doubles as a fucking high heel? And a bunny motif on top of all of that? You'd have a hard time explaining how it's not ridiculous.
I don't really think anyone here is saying that they're being *forced* to. But on the other end, I think we need to be careful not to assume that everything someone does is solely a product of their own desires, and that's especially so if it's their job, their livelihood. This *is* commercial art – it's a product and it has a target demographic to appeal to. I have seen Kinuko's work that she draws in her spare time (pretty disturbing by the way... naked dismembered hypersexualised women...) which certainly raises a possible complicating factor; if I was able to see it because she tweets it, then it's not private art and she may not be doing it solely for her own enjoyment. Plenty of professional artists create non-commissioned art to add to their portfolio and promote their brand.
I'm not saying this *isn't* something she and others enjoy creating, but really, is everything you do at work and at home to pad your resumé and get work because you personally enjoy it, or is it sometimes because you think your boss or hiring managers (your audience) will enjoy it?
Also, it seems like Wamusato Haru engages in a bit of self-objectification too, definitely going above and beyond what's required for her job. How a woman sees herself will definitely affect her art, and how she sees herself is also largely a product of her culture. You say she's not doing it for the money, and I'm sure that's true to an extent, but do you think she'd still be drawing the same things for her private enjoyment in, say, Victorian England?
My point is that both ends of the spectrum of explanation ("she's being forced to!" vs. "she just loves what she does!") are likely overly simplistic in the majority of cases. I also think though that a focus on the artist is a bit of a distraction...
This seems to be a common misconception when people criticise a depiction as "misogynistic" or "sexist". It doesn't imply that the artist or designer who created it necessarily is. You can perceive a creation to be racist or sexist even when the author is anonymous. Thinking that the creator and their views must necessarily factor into a determination of whether something is a sexist depiction is a misdirection. It's also why people think that pointing to a female artist and saying "well she does it too!" completely dismisses criticisms of hypersexualised, degraded, and subservient depictions of women – because of course women can't be sexist!
It's a video game and a fantasy. See how easy that was.
It's definitely unrealistic but very little about the game seems to be going for realism so it's not something to me worth getting hung up about.
Maybe I've spent far too much time on the internet to not find this design that ridiculous.
One of the more popular servants in Fate/Extra CCC and FGO, Passionlip, has an even bigger bust than this girl. 160cm bust, to be precise.
And this version of Passionlip is less risque than the one from Fate/Extra CCC.
Passionlip isn't in the North American version of Fate Grand Order yet, but FGO is the #1 grossing mobile game in the world right now so you can't say it's niche anymore.
I find her far more outlandish than this girl in Xenoblade 2, so yeah.
That doesn't make it not ridiculous. Hausu is a horror movie and intentionally surreal, but that doesn't make the scene where a character's disembodied head floats in the air and bites a schoolmate's butt not ridiculous.
Maybe I've spent far too much time on the internet to not find this design that ridiculous.
One of the more popular servants in Fate/Extra CCC and FGO, Passionlip, has an even bigger bust than this girl. 160cm bust, to be precise.
And this version of Passionlip is less risque than the one from Fate/Extra CCC.
Passionlip isn't in the North American version of Fate Grand Order yet, but FGO is the #1 grossing mobile game in the world right now so you can't say it's niche anymore.
I find her far more outlandish than this girl in Xenoblade 2, so yeah.
I was going to to that the Xenoblade character's bust was inhumanly large, but then I remembered that anime frequently has women with larger busts, and sometimes real life does, too.
It's still ridiculous, though.
EveryTimeYouTryLogicOnAFantasySettingGodKillsACatgirl.png
Whether is ridiculous or not is ultimately a matter of persona perspectives
A problem I have when people brand media like this as misogynist is it determines the media itself is trying to say something about reality. I don't think say a playboy magazine is trying to make the statement that women exist solely for sexual objectification. It's instead saying here's something we know men like and we like money so we're gonna give it to them.
It's not like this stuff is being made for children. Adults are capable of enjoying sexy depictions of women without that influencing how they see women.
As for children they shouldn't be seeing this stuff. Their parents should also do a better job bringing them up.
I mean sure, but that doesn't change the fact that many of us still find her to be ridiculous. Same as how the ice woman's existence doesn't suddenly make Pyra not look ridiculous to me.
I have had feedbacs from women who stated that there were perhaps more women than men enjoying those outfits in games. An other question that was raised, and thta id ditn expect, was what if the problem was we associating nudity to sexuality? I don't feel specifically obsessed with "waifus in games" but I have seen myself women appreiating this, men too, I don't know if this is really one-sided anymore.
Yeah, I get it. I'm not trying to discount your perspective in the least, just sharing my own. Some of the media I come across or consume seems to have stuff on par with this or even more risque/outlandish so when I look at this XC2 design it frankly looks kind of milquetoast.
I find SHarknado ridiculous, but then people may get rid of their stress through ridiculous shows.
Misogyny is a social construct. It's not internalised to the individual. Misogynistic works are about how it is perceived by the collective that has viewed it.
The creator's intentions play into it but it also has to stand to judgement from our collective culture as well.
The creator's intentions play into it but it also has to stand to judgement from our collective culture as well.
That's a good attitude to have. You could also look at it like this: I will absolutely never be playing Xenoblade Chronicles because of its embarrassing and dehumanising depiction of women. I doubt I'm alone on this too – a lot of women hate it, and even many men feel uncomfortable with it. So I and others will never get to experience the things you love about the game. We'll never share you enthusiasm or know what you're talking about. But if these elements weren't in there, you could share your love of the game with more people, and more people would be able to appreciate and love al the aspects that you enjoy in the game. Being able to share a game you love with more people and see them appreciate it too is worth it.
Ridiculous doesn't mean wrong, but yeah, let's not pretend things can't be ridiculous even in fiction :P
"Let's get some guest artists in to do some character design."
"Should we ask any from this long list of established and internationally recognised artists?"
"Nah, just nab Tetsuya Nomura and we'll use niche hentai artists for the rest."
"Should we ask any from this long list of established and internationally recognised artists?"
"Nah, just nab Tetsuya Nomura and we'll use niche hentai artists for the rest."
Yeah, you can like this stuff all you want for whatever reason you want. You can like booby bunny Xenoblade 2 girl in spite of her hypersexualization or because of it. That's perfectly okay. But there's nothing and probably more right with acknowledging and respecting the issues people may have with it and with her.
Maybe I've spent far too much time on the internet to not find this design that ridiculous.
One of the more popular servants in Fate/Extra CCC and FGO, Passionlip, has an even bigger bust than this girl. 160cm bust, to be precise.
And this version of Passionlip is less risque than the one from Fate/Extra CCC.
Passionlip isn't in the North American version of Fate Grand Order yet, but FGO is the #1 grossing mobile game in the world right now so you can't say it's niche anymore.
I find her far more outlandish than this girl in Xenoblade 2, so yeah.
I howled for a minute straight. Fate continues to disgustingly amaze me
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