Paste: "Red Dead Redemption 2's Red Face Proves How Far Games Haven't Come"

I didn't find Charles to be racist at all. His character traits reflect his background. I guess the buffalo stuff was laid on a little strong. I dont really care who voices a character.

Whereas I do wish he had been played by an actor of Black or native American descent, the actual character I didn't find to be objectionable (or no more than most Rockstar characters). That said I have only started Chapter 3, so maybe he becomes worse later.

I liked Charles but I guess I can see how he's a bit stereotypical. Would've been cool if they hired a different VA too.

Were Rains Fall and Eagle Flies voiced by Native American actors?

I agree with the article, absolutely stereotypical and not surprising

I didn't find Charles racist tbh, he was one of my favorite characters from the gang

He's my favorite npc in the game, it would have been nice for him to be voiced by a native but red face?

Not towards the later half, but I haven't had too much issue with him at all, seems like a cool character. Really I feel like this is a step in the right direction to have representation in games. It sucks that the actor wasnt someone similar, but I think this does something to get more people in minorities to get interested in the field, I think there are some positives to be taken. Also "red face" seems a little disingenuous when I think they are taking it seriously

Were Eagle Flies and Rains Fall portrayed by Native Actors? I think I remember reading that Rains Fall was.

If so, I'm curious why Rockstar wouldn't go that route with Charles too.

I haven't played the game, so I'm basing this only on what's in the article, but that doesn't seem very racist?

I mean, it's a shitty situation of course, but I fail to see how race plays a part on it. It's not like he's the only character in a shitty situation in the game, from what I know.

As for the voice actor, that's definitely a shame. I wonder if it's more of a situation like Naughty Dog with Nadine, where they chose the VA before deciding the looks of the character, but probably not.

I thought that Charles was the most sensible of the whole bunch.

I found Charles to be completely down-to-earth and a very well rounded character, actually.

Charles sucks? I found that he and Saddie were the best characters :(

I really disliked RDR2 but if anything their portrayal of Native Americans was OK. Definitely much better than recent examples in the movies (The Ballad of Buster Scruggs). Not that this article has no right to exist, but it's definitely hyperbolic.

YaBish said:

Were Eagle Flies and Rains Fall portrayed by Native Actors? I think I remember reading that Rains Fall was.

If so, I'm curious why Rockstar wouldn't go that route with Charles too.

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Maybe they did the sensible thing; tried to find the right actor with a similar background, failed at that and just picked someone who gave a good performance.

He uses every part of the buffalo. Charles sucks.

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I don't know why but this is hilarious to me

I can see where they're coming from but they didn't delve into it because it wasn't Charles' story

It really does suck they didn't get a black or native actor for him, that's not okay

Charles rules - one of my favorite members of the gang, for sure. Every mission with him got me stoked.

Calling him a caricature sounds pretty absurd to me

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Voice acting isn't screen acting and should be held to different standards. It's where vocal skill and writing matter more and appearance doesn't matter at all. It's a free for all in the best possible way.

Edit: Obviously they should try to match VA background to character as best they can, but it's not egregious and it's not _face for them to not be a match. What matters most is what is on screen. That provides the representation and the self-identification for the viewer, so long as it's done respectfully and responsibly.

I mean, his character makes sense. Yeah, the gang is mostly white but that's not why he is greatful they accept him. His backstory is essentially the same as Arthurs and Johns, just from a native perspective.

Also I'm still on the side of anyone can voice act any race. Get actual native Americans to discuss what's right and wrong with story and characters but leave the voice actor to whoever gets the job done in the way they want.

YaBish said:

Were Eagle Flies and Rains Fall portrayed by Native Actors? I think I remember reading that Rains Fall was.

If so, I'm curious why Rockstar wouldn't go that route with Charles too.

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Rains Fall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Greene_(actor)

Eagle Flies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Bitsui

As a non-American I just don't know better, Charles seemed very fine, Eagle Flies and Rains Fall seemed pretty cliche, the characters and the story (which felt white savourish).

Kinthey said:

Calling him a caricature sounds pretty absurd to me

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Yup.

Kinthey said:

Calling him a caricature sounds pretty absurd to me

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"How dare they not hunt the Buffalo respectfully" was a pretty stereotypical portrayal of a Native American character. It's really too bad it was one of the first interactions you have with Charles in the game.

SG-17 said:

Voice acting isn't screen acting and should be held to different standards. It's where vocal skill and writing matter more and appearance doesn't matter at all. It's a free for all in the best possible way.

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I agree with this mentality. Voice doesn't see color.

I don't think I agree, like at all.

They cast Noshir Dalal, a Japanese and Parsi actor, who claims his being "pretty damn ethnically ambiguous" as a selling point, and that his "look" covers a wide-range of ethnicities. I don't really blame Dalal. Playing into this ambiguity is what white supremacy in the fiercely competitive space of acting demands of marginalized people.

In addition to the usual violence of black or redface, what this "alternative" to whites performing in black and redface communicates that people of color are entirely interchangeable. That our lives and experiences and understandings are not unique, that we are merely "Other." It perpetuates white supremacy. And, in a way, it's worse than if they'd simply cast only white actors. Due to the casting of other Native and Black actors elsewhere in Red Dead Redemption 2, it communicates "We know better, we just don't care."

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So the author would rather whites get roles than other minorities? I feel at some point, this is ACTING, it's not a documentary piece, let the creators create it as they see fit.

I never really got the whole idea behind "digital blackface." The whole point of voice acting is that anyone can play anyone.

I also like the character. The facts about his past seem par for the course with a lot of characters that exist in the world. He just happens to be of mix race.

Similarly with the white savior aspect. To me in this scenario it comes off as different just because how inherently cult like it is for everyone. The opening "Stay with me speech." Dutch is everyone's "savior."

Is the Buffalo thing the only evidence the writer uses of Charles being an offensive stereotype?

This sounds exactly like Red Harlowe's storyline from Red Dead Revolver???

Haven't played the game myself but read the thread anyway. I'm of the opinion that a character doesn't have to be voiced by someone of the 'right' race. There are many examples where the performance has been excellent (Kratos, Nadine etc) where the races have not aligned.

That doesn't mean to say that I think people don't deserve the opportunity though. It is a tough call.

SG-17 said:

Voice acting isn't screen acting and should be held to different standards. It's where vocal skill and writing matter more and appearance doesn't matter at all. It's a free for all in the best possible way.

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Free for all! Just ignore that it generally means white actors getting jobs playing minority characters AND white characters. Besides, sometimes it happens the other way around, like this one particular example everyone in this topic will use. Plus this other example from a game no one has heard of once that example being used over and over again is called out.

Totally color bli... I mean free for all, yep.

Ugh.

Charles is fine. He's honestly one of the few members of the gang aside from Lenny that doesn't come off as a complete shitbag.

SG-17 said:

Voice acting isn't screen acting and should be held to different standards. It's where vocal skill and writing matter more and appearance doesn't matter at all. It's a free for all in the best possible way.

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That is not the case. People of color should represent themselves.

I haven't played Red Dead Redemption 2 so I can't speak about the character Charles himself, and this piece isn't about the character so I'm not sure why so many are fixated on that one point in a broader discussion, but as someone who is First Nations I think it's irresponsible and inexcusable for billion dollar companies to write Native American characters without having indigenous writers on staff and casting indigenous actors. It's the bare minimum that should be expected.

Charles is one of my favorite NPCs in the game, and I thought his character was nuanced and generally good. He's honestly one of the only characters I can pretty simply say "he's a good guy."

I guess the chapter with the bison lays it on a bit thick, but I really enjoyed his later stuff.

Eatin' Olives said:

"How dare they not hunt the Buffalo respectfully" was a pretty stereotypical portrayal of a Native American character. It's really too bad it was one of the first interactions you have with Charles in the game.

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It wasn't that they weren't hunting them respectfully, it's that they were just murdering buffalo and leaving them to rot. These animals are one of the primary food sources of various tribes and these dudes are just killing them indiscriminately.

If you take everything as an extreme insult (ie: considering Charles a redface character), people will stop listening to you. Like, this is exactly the kinda thing that fuels the "aRe You OfFENdeD?" bullshit.

Charles was one of the best characters in the game.

Voice acting should be colorblind. Now there's definitely an argument that the industry has been overwhelmingly white in the past and that imbalance needs to be addressed, but as the article points out, that wasn't the case here as they used plenty of non white actors including for Charles. And bizarrely they seemingly would've preferred an all white voice cast. .

SG-17 said:

Voice acting isn't screen acting and should be held to different standards. It's where vocal skill and writing matter more and appearance doesn't matter at all. It's a free for all in the best possible way.

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What about the outcry over Apu being voiced by a non Indian actor?

SG-17 said:

Voice acting isn't screen acting and should be held to different standards. It's where vocal skill and writing matter more and appearance doesn't matter at all. It's a free for all in the best possible way.

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Nahh. Just because VO itself doesn't involve your appearance, which is actually not always true in a lot of these big budget games now where they are doing a lot of mocap and more importantly scanning the actor's faces, doesn't change the fact that the rest of the world still very much sees them and their skin color. There is no meritocracy going on here, just like everywhere else Native and Black people have a much much harder time breaking into the scene.

That doesn't even begin to get into the issue of making sure that minority voices, literally and figuratively, have a spot and say in the actual depiction and creation of their own people in media. Which is immensely important, especially in a genre like Westerns where Native peoples are normally props at best in a story that is really about the final death and destruction of an entire swath of peoples and not the story about white men taming the west.

Charles was one of the best parts of RDR2 personally, was one of the few in camp who seemed true to themselves throughout.

Honestly wish we got more of him.

I'd have said Sean was more egregious.

I don't know man, wasn't the whole Charles-Buffalo thing some sort of minor history lesson?
Outside of the US how many people know that Buffalos were shot for fun and almost went extinct.

Speaking on just the character, Charles is one of my favourite of the group.

This is the example he uses to show how far games haven't come?

ZeroX said:

Charles was one of the best characters in the game.

Voice acting should be colorblind. Now there's definitely an argument that the industry has been overwhelmingly white in the past and that imbalance needs to be addressed, but as the article points out, that wasn't the case here as they used plenty of non white actors including for Charles. And bizarrely they seemingly would've preferred an all white voice cast. .

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Why the fuck are people saying this? People should represent themselves. If today someone casts a white person to voice a black person that's just straight up bullshit (looking at you Naughty Dog).

Fuck that sentiment. Reprensentation matters, there's enough talent out there.

I think the voice actor for Charles did a good job, and overall Charles is definitely one of the best characters in the game...However I agree that it would have been much better to cast a voice actor that would represent his ethnicity, for the exact reasons stated in the article.

And here I was thinking that Charles was a good character. I undersrand the criticism regarding the choice of the VA but I just found him to be a generally likeable guy. Arthur's journal also has a nice piece of text about him that paints him as a man who can instinctively tell good from bad. Then again, I'm not terribly familiar with tropes regarding Native Americans so forgive my ignorance.