I won't pretend to be familiar with the history of the phrase so I'll take your word for it. However if he was a Jew who made the same statement, I'm certain he doesn't get fired.
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Marc Lamont Hill fired by CNN over Isreal remarks
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It's like everyone here has no memory of past threads and keeps rehashing the same tired arguments, forgetting what the tendency of this forum is.
Also, do you really want to align yourself with the "alt-right" who use Israel as a convenient excuse to be Islamophobic and truly anti-Semitic?
Also, do you really want to align yourself with the "alt-right" who use Israel as a convenient excuse to be Islamophobic and truly anti-Semitic?
Maybe I'm wrong but the issue with the "From the river to the sea" quote is that it refers to an explicit terrorist group (PLO) whose goal with genocide of the Israeli Jews. Which is the reason why in this specific circumstance it wasn't "a flimsy standard of dog whistle" If he said what he said without that quote then it would be fine and a 1 state Palistin solutions is probably the only rational solution that doesn't result in genocide which is in no was an endorsement of Hamas.
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Would it have been fine? The post you're quoting is positioning anything besides a two state solution as not fine.
Anything pro Palestine will be taken to be negative and antisemitic by a large number of people.
This is some Foucault 101 people.
Actually the PLO supports Israel's right to exist. They generally support two states now but when they called for one state it was for a "free and democratic society in Palestine for all Palestinians whether they are Muslims, Christians or Jews"
The two state solution is a fantasy, and one that Israel itself isn't even pretending to attempt.
Sorry, that was 100% my dyslexia. I meant to type "If he said what he said without the quote then it would have been fine". My point was solely that you need to take dog whistles seriously on all sides and that phrase carries a lot of history with it that makes it inexcusable. At the same time I'm critical of CNN for only holding him to this standard (I mean they platform Ben Shapiro and his shitty site who has explicitly advocated for Palestinian genocide), along with the free speech warriors that won't say a thing, along with the Israel defenders who attempt to call any criticism of Israel antisemitic. Marc really fucked up hard though and it's not a case of saying anything against Israel it's a matter of saying that one specific phrase.
I don't in any way expect Crocks' to be arguing in good faith when it comes to this though given his history in these threads.
I took the word of people who are far more well verse in the history of the region than I am who I've always seen argue in favour of Palestine in the past. If I've been misinformed about the phrase currently being a call for genocide then I'm 100% wrong here. I also got confused with the PLO's use of it when the bigger issue seems to be Hamas' use of the term.
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You seriously wouldn't notice the difference between this thread being posted on some Alt-Right Forum and here.
There is some straight-up aggressive anti-semitism being spouted in this thread, open demands for the dissolution of Israel as a state. It's nice to see that Nazis, Liberals and Leftists after all this time can still agree on one thing at least.
The US JUST voted in an open, noted racist into power as the president of a country which stole all of their Land from the people who originally lived their, enslaving and slaughtering them. And yet, I have never seen anyone arguing for the dissolution of the United States when the US government gasses refugees, imprisons babies or fails to give back power and land to the country's indigenous people. It's almost like there's some kind of double standard going on there.
You can be openly critical about Israel's leadership without constantly questioning the country's and their people's right to exist. That's something that is almost exclusively reserved for Israel and it's population.
"Israel's right to exist" is a bullshit phrase that conveniently serves to obfuscate the present ethnonationalist nature of Israel's existence and what exactly it does and must continue doing, both to Palestinians and to the non-Jewish citizens of Israel proper, to maintain a Jewish demographic and/or political majority. No one is disputing the rights of the Jewish citizens of what is currently Israel to live there, vote, have full citizenship, religious freedom, etc.
I get what you're trying to say, but...that's rich, considering what they're doing to Palestinians.
And I don't think anyone here is questioning people's right to exist.
It's not just that it's also that the Israeli governments refuse to go back to the borders before they conquered land. That's why Palestinians and Israel will never agree.
EDITED: fixed my wording, wrote Palestinians rather than governments for some reason.
Ah yes and liberals and leftists never criticize how the U.S. treats indigenous people and immigrants.
Maybe you are unaware that conservatives are in power in this country. And our fascist president who is pushing for gassing refugees and kidnapping immigrant children is also a huge supporter of Israel's Apartheid state.
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I love how opposing apartheid and wanting freedom and rights for Palestinians is instantly shot down as questioning Israelis right to exist. Crocodiles have more rights than Palestinians do in Israel. Standards of living in Gaza and the West Bank are inhumane to put it lightly. Calling out their bullshit is justified and should happen all day every day.
The people absolutely have a right to exist, and to continue to live where they do. The state of Israel, however, needs to go.
Lol people criticize the US all the time, along with criticism of China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia. Israel is not exempt for their inhumane actions.
I agree with his stated intent in the tweets (the Palestinian people should be free throughout Israel, as that's their home). I'm too ignorant on some of the actual rhetoric though to comment on that specific phrase.
Well...
You can't deny Israel's right to exist without also denying Iraeli's rights to exist. What exactly do you think would happen if someone would use his magic want, turn all of Israel into Palestina and just...leave every single Israeli where they are, now living in another people's country, controlled by people and organisations that want to eradicate them?
Let me make this clear: I think the Israel government's actions are despicable and indefensible. Their settlement efforts are breaking international law constantly and in their right-wing agenda they are clearly not interested in a peaceful solution that would benefit them but also Palestinians.
This does, however, not make me want to wish the destruction or dissolution of the state of Israel. Just as much as Trump doesn't make me argue for the dissolution of the US. That is my whole point.
So you're counter argument people saying Israel shouldn't exist is because the Israeli's currently in there would be controlled by people and organizations that want to eradicate them.... The irony is ridiculously uncanny. The reverse shit is what is happening now with Palestenians.
If the state of Israel continues to be a place where it's founding principle is hellbent on eradicating Palestinians, then a new state needs to be formed where both can coexist.
User Banned (1 Day): Hostility/Antagonizing another forum member
just say outright that you believe Palestinians have an innate, irrational, and insatiable thirst for Jewish blood and thus must be kept forever separate for the good of both peoples. let's not leave the racial aspect here as subtext
The people are not the same as the country. Nations have dissolved before plenty of times without genocide. And they are currently living in another people's country. Israel only exists as land stolen from Palestine.
What have the Palestinians done that's anywhere near as genocidal as what the Israelis have done? Or do you think they're just inhuman bloodthristy monsters that must consume Jews?
If Israel is not willing to allow the Palestinian people their own functional sovereign nation after taking their land and forcibly relocating them, they shouldn't exist as an explicitly Jewish state.
A vast majority of supporters of Israel believes it is intrinsically a 'Jewish state' and that if you restore equal rights to all Palestinians across their homeland it will cease to be a Jewish state and therefore no longer exist. I disagree, I think it can be both a Jewish state and a Palestinian state.
So I suppose we're talking about semantics. You say you don't want the destruction of the state of Israel, but by your definitions, would a binational state with equal rights for everyone be the destruction of the state of Israel?
Right, watch your words as I bulldoze your home as you eat breakfast in it.
BUT WATCH YOUR TONE NWord!!!
I. know.
That's why I said that openly that strongly criticising the Israel government's policies is the right and necessary thing to do and why I did that very thing. And you can't see why arguing for the VERY SAME THING Israel is doing right now - just from the other side - is equally disgusting?
This whole stance that Israel never gets criticised is so dishonest in itself. EU's parlamentary president Martin Schulz openly criticized and attacked Israel's government for the settlement policies...while speaking IN the knesset: https://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/video...ede-in-Knesset-Eklat-aus-article12266046.html. The EU officially condemned Israel's settlement policie's just last year, the only and official position on it is that Israel is unequivocably wrong.
Oh fuck right off. How fucking dare you.
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I think you misunderstood what I was saying, so let me be clear: I believe campaigning for the existence of any ethnostate constitutes a colonialist and racist policy, and Israel is a prime example.
The McCarthyist-like attack on people who criticize Israel, lumping them in with literal Nazis when it is the "alt-right" that uses Israel as a defense against being anti-Semitic, is disingenuous and dangerous.
Nonsense.
That's equivalent to saying we can't have united Ireland because taking back the six counties would just be doing to the British what they did to us.
No one is saying that Jewish people shouldn't exist and they are definitely not saying that there should be the systematic genocide of Jewish people or that there should be an apartheid.
And I'll just repeat what I said earlier:
If the state of Israel continues to be a place where it's founding principle is hellbent on eradicating Palestinians, then a new state needs to be formed where both can coexist.
I don't like Israel policies, but what it the deal with some of these people.
People talking about the Jews influencing and controlling the media and the government. People calling for the destruction of Israel and complaining about the Zionists.
It almost feels like a Stormfront thread.
It is scary how blatant the anti-Semitic undertones in the rhetoric are.
People talking about the Jews influencing and controlling the media and the government. People calling for the destruction of Israel and complaining about the Zionists.
It almost feels like a Stormfront thread.
It is scary how blatant the anti-Semitic undertones in the rhetoric are.
Neither Israel nor Hamas want a One-state-solution. You are arguing for a pipe-dream that none of the organisations and gonverments that are actually part of the conflict want.
And tell me how this 2-state solution is also possible with the Apartheid structure right now?
You think it's less of a pipe dream that Israel will one day bring those illegal settlers back from the internationally recognized 1967 borders?
EDIT: Also, the fact that you use Hamas as an organization that is speaking on behalf of Palestinians kind of speaks volumes about your prejudice around the Palestinians.
that's the logical implication of the argument that attempting to implement a binational state would inevitably lead to genocide or ethnic cleansing of Israeli Jews, like it or not. I don't expect people who toss out that assertion to actually interrogate its implications, though, because the very point is to shut down debate and prevent an actual, nuanced discussion of a binational state and what it would take to get there.
Why can't you do this? Pure supposition. Also it's the old everyone that disagrees with me is racist so I'm right thing. Laziest kind of argument in the world.
Jewish people in Israel have some right to some of the land there. They shouldn't be eradicated, no one is saying that, and you had to make one of the dumbest strawmen I've ever seen to get there. The state of Israel, by its very nature as an ethnostate, is a never ending existential threat to the Palestinian people. There are compelling arguments to be made that it should not exist. Ironically of course Israel doesn't think Palestine should exist, but someone else covered the blatant hypocrisy in your post.
Anyway, call me crazy, but I care more about the right of people to exist than the right of states to exist.
But yes, everyone that disagrees with you is alt right. Congrats you won Era with your ingenious discursive maneuver.
Israel absolutely wants a one state solution long term. You would had seen that this was already covered but I guess if you call everyone you don't agree with racist from the get go you can just ignore the entire conversation.
And tell me how this 2-state solution is also possible with the Apartheid structure right now?
You think it's less of a pipe dream that Israel will one day bring those illegal settlers back from the internationally recognized 1967 borders?
It's absolutely less of a pipe dream because it's actually what at least one of the affected parties wants, compared to something no one wants or argues for.
Please point out one person who said anything about Jews influencing and controlling media and the government. Moreover I'm not sure what about the end of Israel is antisemitic or what exactly about Zionism puts it above reproach unless you conflate Israel and Zionism with Jewish people which personally I think is extremely antisemitic.
The conversation can't fucking go anywhere, because half of it wants to ban any sort of actual discussion and cover it with Milquetoast "I don't like Israel but...." quibbling while people are murdered on a daily basis.
It's extra annoying because people have appropriated the language of social justice to support the state of Israel, which no matter how you slice it has overwhelmingly not been a good thing.
Ironically none of the pearl-clutchers in here seem aware of the alt-right's actual feelings on Israel which tend to be a lot more positive than people here are assuming.
I mean, there's more than enough space for Palestine to expand westward to the Mediterranean, with the majority of territory remaining in Israel's possession.
You're in here claiming everyone that disagrees with you is racist and you are going to act offended when people make a hyperbolic extrapolation of your logic. Have some self-awareness man.
No one is actually arguing for this. People want a solution, not just to turn around the table. It may be difficult, but it's obviously what people want and what you're doing here is so transparent it's absolutely laughable.
There obviously will be some antisemitic sentiment in some pro-Palestinian discourse, but trying to turn the whole thing into that when people are dying every day is what's disgusting.
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Right, what just one of the parties wants? Again your racist view that Hamas is the one representation of the Palestinian opinion shines again. There are scores and scores of Palestenians in support of a 1-state-solution where there is a single democratic state where all humans born within are given equal rights and privileges.
Ireland is absolutely the best comparison, but it gets ignored here on pretty much any topic when I bring it up because people want to get on soapboxes without much in the way of historical context on the issue they are talking about let alone a general historical literacy.
A single state with equal rights for both Palestinians and Israelis is actually regularly argued for and wanted by many in the region. The people who ignore this and propagate for the fantasy two state solution are merely enabling the broken pro Israeli status quo. Also lol @ 'affected parties'.
It's basically de-humanization of people of Palestinian origin. It's similar to the crux of pointing to the HAMAS boogeyman. Noura Erakat voiced this way better than me along with the highlighting the voice that many Palestinians want a one-state solution:
These are classic traditional anti-Jewish conspiracy. This is straight from the pages of what the ADL calls anti-Semitic.
https://www.adl.org/resources/fact-...on-inaccuracy-israel-critics-are-anti-semites
The end of Israel will lead to the death and persecution of Jews.
Furthermore, you don't hear about other people wanting other nations to not exist. It is weird that it is only Jewish state that people call for the end of.
That is anti-Semitic.
As for Zionism...
Zionism is not above reproach and I never said it was. However, Zionism is, at its core, the right for Jewish people to have the right of self-determination in their own country. This is the same thing that people want to do for the Palestine. Why is self-determination good for one but not the other.
Sure.... I bet Nazis just love Israel.
It's a whitish ethnostate in the middle of brown people, of course some of them do. Lets not forget a lot of White nationalism in America is about America (also Europe) being what they see as white, not other places.
Meanwhile I'd suggest reading a bit into the lead up to the holocaust if you think this is so far fetched anyway.
Israel is the only relatively new white colonial state in the world. Hopefully if most of us traveled back to the 17th century we'd also have issues with British colonization in North America.
Frankly I wouldn't mind other states going away but some of the prime targets are to well positioned geopolitically for that to be possible. Meanwhile Israel is either going to go away or annex what little remains of Palestine. That's how this story ends.
Their own country being a country other people were living in at the time for a large numbers of Israelis pre 1948, and land taken in war since then.
The fact that you don't see the obvious issue here would be hilarious if it wasn't an ideology that gets people killed every day.