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Deleted member 3542

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,889
Noooooooo the music is the best part.

The more intimate stuff I loved, the choir stuff or the dancing stuff. Nah.

I liked the jazz music

Loved that portion, helped show the time jump better I thought as well as style and what was in vogue changed.

Did he explain all the negative space above people's heads or is just having a laugh

Seems to just be his style. Ida had the same framing. In some cases it works, makes the characters feel small or to just have a good look of what's behind them. In others I don't know why that choice is made.

Either way, probably going to get the Oscar for best foreign.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Just watched Munich. Eh. The made up stuff with the French underworld dude and his dad was bad for multiple reasons inclusing leaving out the vast network of information. Also all the stuff about bystanders and making sure they didn't kill anyone unrelated and they leave out the actual notorious real life incident.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,164
UK
sundance lineup

https://www.indiewire.com/2018/11/sundance-2019-features-lineup-premieres-competition-1202023658/

personally excited for the new David Wnendt project. Zach Galifianakis is in it.
Impressive level of diversity to get female directors to be nearly half and a third to be POC.
For the 2019 festival, 112 feature-length films have been selected, representing 33 countries and 45 first-time filmmakers. 40%, or 45, of all films announced today were directed by one or more women; 36%, or 40, were directed by one or more filmmaker of color; 13% or 15 by one or more people who identify as LGBTQIA.

Fifty three percent of the directors in this year's U.S. Dramatic Competition are women; 41% are people of color; 18% identify as LGBTQIA+. Forty-four percent of the directors in this year's U.S. Documentary Competition are women; 22% are people of color; 5% identify as LGBTQIA+. Of the 61 directors in all four competition categories, comprising 56 films, 42% are women, 39% are people of color, and 23% identify as LGBTQIA.​
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
User Banned (2 Weeks): Repeatedly dismissive towards inclusivity efforts, inflammatory thread derailment, trolling.
not a fan of the quotas and i'll probably be the only one on this board
 

Peru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,129
not a fan of the quotas and i'll probably be the only one on this board

Are there quotas? Or just a more fair representation. In any case, more overarching quotas would've helped the extreme, systematic inequality in the film industry, a counter to the existing bias, because boys club quotas have always existed, male rookie directors and filmmakers have always been given more opportunities, be it getting jobs, studio privileges, festival considerations, and so on. So I would welcome thorough industry-wide quotas, but I see no sign that this is that.
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
Are there quotas? Or just a more fair representation. In any case, more overarching quotas would've helped the extreme, systematic inequality in the film industry, a counter to the existing bias, because boys club quotas have always existed, male rookie directors and filmmakers have always been given more opportunities, be it getting jobs, studio privileges, festival considerations, and so on. So I would welcome thorough industry-wide quotas, but I see no sign that this is that.

with all of the talk of inclusion riders lately and the social movements that happened across festivals this year i can't see how it wouldn't have affected sundance's lineup slate. i don't agree in that there is a boys club bias. festival directors in press statements have repeatedly mentioned quality first in response to assumptions that they're being unfair. i mean you could argue in some cases there's been weird choices at film festivals such as cannes playing sean penn's last film which was critically a flop and looked a bit shit, otherwise there's usually been a breadth of quality or interesting projects across the board. it shouldn't be easier for any person to get the job over the other because of their gender or race, it's absurd and flies in the face of actual equality. filmmaking is a deeply technical endeavour with many roadblocks for everyone and it's not easy to get noticed unless you're incredibly lucky.

in the end the argument between these two points is if weather you believe there's a boys choosing boys club or not. i believe women (and some minorities) haven't statistically chosen the gig as much as guys due to it being outside of either their interest or passion. a lot of these older directors have had to live like spartans eating shit out of a can for decades to get to their level of success. it takes a lot of drive and desire to be in the game. i guess that's changing now. and let's not forget the economic side of things, risk factor etc.
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
there'll be meritocracy here and there and or non existent elsewhere, you can argue it's not there but i believe it should be the standard
 

admataY

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,789
i believe women (and some minorities) haven't statistically chosen the gig as much as guys due to it being outside of either their interest or passion
Mr DaMore, welcome to ResetEra !


If you believe meritocracy existed so far, you have to believe the lop-sided lack of representation of non white film-bro's in the fetival circuit is due to them, women and POC, lack of merit , Thats a stupid thing to believe i think .
 
Oct 2, 2018
3,902
What is up with the "eat my pussy" joke in The Predator 2018. I'm surprised the studio left it in.

very uneven and the final act had zero tension. ... actually make that the entire movie.

3/10

RIP franchise.
 

Peru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,129
in the end the argument between these two points is if weather you believe there's a boys choosing boys club or not.

Whether or not there is and has been a boys club or not is not really up for discussion. There have been several studies, testimonies from men and women in the industry and son on

Nearly 40% of the women polled cited "male-dominated networking" as their biggest challenge, while 43.1% blamed the dilemma on "gendered financial barriers," meaning they aren't getting paid nearly as much as the guys.
https://www.vox.com/2015/1/26/7874295/gender-hollywood


You know, in the silent film era there were a lot more female Hollywood directors than in the following talkies studio system. Why? Because the role as director was institutionalized in a hierarchy and then the traditional patriarchal workplace values meant men were given top positions.

As the American cinema became a highly commercialized industry in the 1920s and its content became more and more conventionalized, the opportunities for women producers and directors became fewer and fewer. By the time sound arrived in the US in 1927 and the years immediately after, women's roles behind the camera were largely limited to scriptwriters, costume designers, set decorators, make-up artists, and the like

So your point about women just not choosing this path is unreasonable. They did in larger numbers even back then, when women generally did not work as much as they do now, but the industry then forced them out of those positions.

For seven years of American history (1917 — 1923), women dominated the film industry. During that period, as Jane Gaines wrote in her graduate film-history study at Harvard, women were more powerful in cinema than in just about any other American business. After 1927, though, women disappeared from behind-the-scenes work, and began appearing much more frequently as love-interests on the screen.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/20...ent-era-hollywood-prominent-directors-writers

Male boys club networking:

Women filmmakers struggle to break into and succeed in an industry run by studio heads who make hires over casual lunches and networking calls to friends. According to Darnell Hunt, the author of the UCLA study, implicit gender bias is largely to blame. Male Hollywood executives "want to keep their jobs," Hunt told NPR. "They want to succeed. And they feel that their best chance for success is by surrounding themselves with other white males, basically."
https://www.aauw.org/article/hollywoods-gender-bias/

Marshall was so impressed with Trevorrow that he took him to meet Steven Spielberg. That's where Trevorrow hit the jackpot: He was tapped to direct and co-write the $150 million ''Jurassic World.'' The movie went on to make $1.6 billion, and Trevorrow was signed to direct the ninth ''Star Wars.''

That kind of leap — from indie to blockbuster — is almost exclusively reserved for young guys in baseball caps who remind older guys in baseball caps of themselves.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/magazine/the-women-of-hollywood-speak-out.html

Then there are the various reports of how women creators have been suppressed inside studios
https://variety.com/2018/film/news/pixar-boys-club-john-lasseter-cassandra-smolcic-1202858982/
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/sep/27/sexism-film-industry-stories

This has been an endless circle. Which is why I would've supported quotas.
 
Last edited:

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
Whether or not there is and has been a boys club or not is not really up for discussion. There have been several studies, testimonies from men and women in the industry and son on


https://www.vox.com/2015/1/26/7874295/gender-hollywood


You know, in the silent film era there were a lot more female Hollywood directors than in the following talkies studio system. Why? Because the role as director was institutionalized in a hierarchy and then the traditional patriarchal workplace values meant men were given top positions.



So your point about women just not choosing this path is unreasonable. They did in larger numbers even back then, when women generally did not work as much as they do now, but the industry then forced them out of those positions.



https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/20...ent-era-hollywood-prominent-directors-writers

Male boys club networking:


https://www.aauw.org/article/hollywoods-gender-bias/



That kind of leap — from indie to blockbuster — is almost exclusively reserved for young guys in baseball caps who remind older guys in baseball caps of themselves.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/magazine/the-women-of-hollywood-speak-out.html

Then there are the various reports of how women creators have been suppressed inside studios
https://variety.com/2018/film/news/pixar-boys-club-john-lasseter-cassandra-smolcic-1202858982/
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/sep/27/sexism-film-industry-stories

This has been an endless circle. Which is why I would've supported quotas.

testimonials by just the utmost correct and unbiased people right

and i could throw a whole heap of skewed statistics at you too. a fair share of those sources you link to are heavily left-leaning, you've linked me vox are you going to source vice next? lol. the truth of the matter is we don't really know what's going on as we're not insiders. is it equality you're after?

do you honestly believe that because there's 2x men going for the job that a woman should get it?
 

Fancy Clown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,407
i believe women (and some minorities) haven't statistically chosen the gig as much as guys due to it being outside of either their interest or passion. a lot of these older directors have had to live like spartans eating shit out of a can for decades to get to their level of success. it takes a lot of drive and desire to be in the game.

Ah yes, the classic "white man strength" those silly women (and some minorities) simply don't WANT to make movies enough, and can't crack it!

Folks like good ol Harvey Weinstein were doing everything in their power to make the Hollywood system not a boys club too, weird.
 

Peru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,129
testimonials by just the utmost correct and unbiased people right

and i could throw a whole heap of skewed statistics at you too. a fair share of those sources you link to are heavily left-leaning, you've linked me vox are you going to source vice next? lol. the truth of the matter is we don't really know what's going on as we're not insiders. is it equality you're after?

do you honestly believe that because there's 2x men going for the job that a woman should get it?

I believe that systemic, historical discrimination has created hugely unfair odds for a certain group of filmmakers to get top positions, and that's where quotas come in to balance some of that out. Because the industry has proven time and time again it has been incapable of correcting that discrimination. And of course in the past year we've seen just how vile and hostile it can be.

The articles I linked to are not opinion pieces by Vox writers, but articles about studies or interviews with industry people. If you don't believe in peer-reviewed studies, then we really have nowhere to go except "I don't agree".

But a lot of what's being quoted are just facts. Like the development of the US movie industry from silent films to talkies and how that ruined opportunities for female filmmakers. Part of your point was that women just didn't want the jobs enough, which goes directly against the history of film.
 

shaneo632

Weekend Planner
Member
Oct 29, 2017
29,001
Wrexham, Wales
I did think the lineup was a little light on "brand names" this year, the inclusion quota would explain why (that's not a complaint, just an observation).

Would love to go to Sundance some time in the near-future *bank account weeps*
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
But a lot of what's being quoted are just facts. Like the development of the US movie industry from silent films to talkies and how that ruined opportunities for female filmmakers. Part of your point was that women just didn't want the jobs enough, which goes directly against the history of film.

i'll look into this, you never know i may be swayed.
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,283
testimonials by just the utmost correct and unbiased people right

and i could throw a whole heap of skewed statistics at you too. a fair share of those sources you link to are heavily left-leaning, you've linked me vox are you going to source vice next? lol. the truth of the matter is we don't really know what's going on as we're not insiders. is it equality you're after?

do you honestly believe that because there's 2x men going for the job that a woman should get it?
I'd be interested in what statistics and arguments you can put forward besides just personal feelings on why the film industry is a meritocracy when the rest of the economy isn't.
 

Peru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,129
I think "quotas" in some circles sounds like "we won't give the job to the best qualified". That's not actually what they're for. They exist because it has been recognised that the job up until now has not necessarily been given to the best qualified, as a result of systematic biases, conscious ones or not. If both men and women in the industry agree that equal opportunity has not been a thing, that, say, indie directors of a certain group have been given more big time opportunities than another group, then you need to push to change. That goes for the hierarchy as a whole.

But quotas aren't actually happening for directors jobs, so you don't have to worry about them. What's happening is that public pressure is building to the point that it would be embarassing to at least not make a surface level effort. So superhero movies about female superheroes are one new portal into which female directors can enter to get budgets these days. And some people with power, like Jordan Peele, can give a project to a female director because he thinks she'd be good and he has the clout to do it. Before, those kinds of people have largely not given the job to female directors. For a while a poor excuse was that female directors were riskier bets with big budgets. There are enough counter examples now to rubbish that thought.
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
Who's going to look at Harvey Weinstein and the many other abusive and powerful producers, studio heads, and directors throughout history and come to the conclusion that's hollywood is somehow not a boys club?

hollywood is a weird place. i won't defend any of it. in the end with those producers it's all economics anyway. what's risky? what sells?
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
I'd be interested in what statistics and arguments you can put forward besides just personal feelings on why the film industry is a meritocracy when the rest of the economy isn't.

i'm not saying it is a meritocracy lol, i'm saying it should be ideal. there'll be pockets here and there where you;ll find examples of it being not. i just don't know if quotas are the right way to go.
 

PrimeBeef

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,840
Just saw The Founder. While the just was pretty accurate the details were way off. Still though, Michael Keaton is always good.
 

Fancy Clown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,407
hollywood is a weird place. i won't defend any of it. in the end with those producers it's all economics anyway. what's risky? what sells?

How is telling a woman that if she doesn't fuck you she won't get a job all economics?

You don't think things like that not only impact the women working in the industry, but also women considering if they should persue a career in an industry that has more or less condoned behaviors like that for a century?

And that's not even counting all the garden-variety "you're too pretty to be a writer" sexism women have had to deal with.
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
I think "quotas" in some circles sounds like "we won't give the job to the best qualified". That's not actually what they're for. They exist because it has been recognised that the job up until now has not necessarily been given to the best qualified, as a result of systematic biases, conscious ones or not. If both men and women in the industry agree that equal opportunity has not been a thing, that, say, indie directors of a certain group have been given more big time opportunities than another group, then you need to push to change. That goes for the hierarchy as a whole.

But quotas aren't actually happening for directors jobs, so you don't have to worry about them. What's happening is that public pressure is building to the point that it would be embarassing to at least not make a surface level effort. So superhero movies about female superheroes are one new portal into which female directors can enter to get budgets these days. And some people with power, like Jordan Peele, can give a project to a female director because he thinks she'd be good and he has the clout to do it. Before, those kinds of people have largely not given the job to female directors. For a while a poor excuse was that female directors were riskier bets with big budgets. There are enough counter examples now to rubbish that thought.

you make a compelling argument. i'll mull it over.
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
How is telling a woman that if she doesn't fuck you she won't get a job all economics?

You don't think things like that not only impact the women working in the industry, but also women considering if they should persue a career in an industry that has more or less condoned behaviors like that for a century?

And that's not even counting all the garden-variety "you're too pretty to be a writer" sexism women have had to deal with.

you're angry, there's no need to be. i'm not even talking about that abhorrent behaviour. this conversation was about film festivals anyway, hollywood is a weird place like i said.
 

Fancy Clown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,407
you're angry, there's no need to be. i'm not even talking about that abhorrent behaviour. this conversation was about film festivals anyway, hollywood is a weird place like i said.

Yes but that abhorrent behavior has a direct impact on all the unreasoned bullshit you've been talking.

"Hollywood is a weird place. Bad stuff just happens to women there and mostly only men succeed there, pretty weird and no relation at all it's all just economics! Don't get angry, I just don't think women want to make movies badly enough, even though I have no evidence to support my claims!"

You're the one who launched into your backwards views knowing it would piss people off lol
 

Fancy Clown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,407
Othello: While the themes of racism fall laughably flat due to Welles casting his own incredibly white ass in the title role, it's hard to deny the cinematic depth he brings to the bard's work from the director's chair. The ways he depicts the increasingly tormented state of Othello mind visually works in tandem with the dialogue to express the story in ways it could not be as a play (and sometimes the visuals do all the heavy lifting as the synced sound track can be both difficult to hear, and often doesn't match the lips of the speakers making the already tricky speech patterns that much harder to discern).
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
Yes but that abhorrent behavior has a direct impact on all the unreasoned bullshit you've been talking.

"Hollywood is a weird place. Bad stuff just happens to women there and mostly only men succeed there, pretty weird and no relation at all it's all just economics! Don't get angry, I just don't think women want to make movies badly enough, even though I have no evidence to support my claims!"

You're the one who launched into your backwards views knowing it would piss people off lol

take your hollywood hat off for a minute. i started this discussion about film festivals, where the bulk of the films are produced independently from various sources, even a lot of funding comes from governments from around the world. but even then its less about the money and more about the art. it's where people go to see quality films. you want evidence to back up my claims? https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ere-are-all-the-female-directors-9384629.html Thierry Frémaux, "told us that us only seven percent of the 1,800 films submitted to the Festival, were directed by women.

now that's films submitted from all around the world. how can we know in which and every case there was an injustice? or was it simply just the axe chopping with the grain? it's certainly a bit of both. all i'm saying is i just don't know if propping up films or their filmmakers over others is the way to do it.
 

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
glad to know that even here, whenever a woman or PoC could potentially get some shine, there's always another white man more qualified to be spoken up for
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,620
testimonials by just the utmost correct and unbiased people right

and i could throw a whole heap of skewed statistics at you too. a fair share of those sources you link to are heavily left-leaning, you've linked me vox are you going to source vice next? lol. the truth of the matter is we don't really know what's going on as we're not insiders. is it equality you're after?

do you honestly believe that because there's 2x men going for the job that a woman should get it?
As long as you're promising a whole heap of stats, I'd be curious to see the data from surveys showing that women and PoC just aren't as interested in being directors as white men are.
 

Fancy Clown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,407
take your hollywood hat off for a minute. i started this discussion about film festivals, where the bulk of the films are produced independently from various sources, even a lot of funding comes from governments from around the world. but even then its less about the money and more about the art. it's where people go to see quality films. you want evidence to back up my claims? https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...ere-are-all-the-female-directors-9384629.html Thierry Frémaux, "told us that us only seven percent of the 1,800 films submitted to the Festival, were directed by women.

now that's films submitted from all around the world. how can we know in which and every case there was an injustice? or was it simply just the axe chopping with the grain? it's certainly a bit of both. all i'm saying is i just don't know if propping up films or their filmmakers over others is the way to do it.

The problem is that this is the exact same argument people use against affirmative action, and it's wrong for the same reasons.
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
As long as you're promising a whole heap of stats, I'd be curious to see the data from surveys showing that women and PoC just aren't as interested in being directors as white men are.

there is the data i linked in that reply to fancy clown. -- Thierry Frémaux told us that us only seven percent of the 1,800 films submitted to the Festival, were directed by women.
 

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
Honestly take a step back and analyze why your first reaction to promoting under represented voices is " Wait this isn't right! What about white men!?"
 

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
Well that assumes you thought at all about the bullshit you said on this page, which is just me being kind
 

Hampig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,703
The House That Jack Built
I saw this at a special preview event last night with my wife and very much enjoyed it. The movie moved at a good pace, had a surprising amount of genuinely funny moments, and some absolutely beautiful cinematography. If you're a fan of Lars Von Trier then I think the easiest way to describe this movie is Nymphomaniac crossed with Antichrist. If you're not a fan of Lars Von Trier, then this is a strange movie that quickly alternates between humorous and overly serious that's trying a little too hard to be shocking and also looks very pretty.

I think it seems like Lars has landed on his trademarks with this one and realized what works for him and what doesn't. It's the essence of LVT, for better or worse.

There are layers storywise that I honestly can't say I've figured out, so I can't say exactly how I feel about the actual theme or message, but the storytelling was good and the movie overall was a good experience.
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
That data point doesn't support your statement. Percentage alone isn't evidence of motivation and interest

yeah but if you read up to the previous post i talked about it too. here it is again.

Thierry Frémaux, "told us that us only seven percent of the 1,800 films submitted to the Festival, were directed by women.

now that's films submitted from all around the world. how can we know in which and every case there was an injustice? or was it simply just the axe chopping with the grain? it's certainly a bit of both. all i'm saying is i just don't know if propping up films or their filmmakers over others is the way to do it.
 

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
The whole point is Sundance is to give a platform to voices outside the mainstream. It's about people from all walks of life, with their own particular culture and history and routines. One of the best ways to promote that is by actively seeking out different voices who can tell different stories. That's the core of the film festival, to represent all kinds of voices that aren't seen in Hollywood. So yes that means women, and that means PoC, and that means LGBT. That means some white dudes are gonna have to take a backseat to better reflect and represent the country we actually live in.

That fact that you can't even process that is WILD amounts of white privilege dawg
 

luca

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,513
The House That Jack Built
I saw this at a special preview event last night with my wife and very much enjoyed it. The movie moved at a good pace, had a surprising amount of genuinely funny moments, and some absolutely beautiful cinematography. If you're a fan of Lars Von Trier then I think the easiest way to describe this movie is Nymphomaniac crossed with Antichrist. If you're not a fan of Lars Von Trier, then this is a strange movie that quickly alternates between humorous and overly serious that's trying a little too hard to be shocking and also looks very pretty.

I think it seems like Lars has landed on his trademarks with this one and realized what works for him and what doesn't. It's the essence of LVT, for better or worse.

There are layers storywise that I honestly can't say I've figured out, so I can't say exactly how I feel about the actual theme or message, but the storytelling was good and the movie overall was a good experience.
This impression and Dookake's post on discord has made me really wanna go check it out. I see it premiered today too. I remember really liking Antichrist when it came out, and it's my favorite of his, but I've only really seen Nymphomaniac 1&2 from the rest of his filmography, and I remember being confused as hell by it.
 

Mi goreng

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,244
Melbourne
The whole point is Sundance is to give a platform to voices outside the mainstream. It's about people from all walks of life, with their own particular culture and history and routines. One of the best ways to promote that is by actively seeking out different voices who can tell different stories. That's the core of the film festival, to represent all kinds of voices that aren't seen in Hollywood. So yes that means women, and that means PoC, and that means LGBT. That means some white dudes are gonna have to take a backseat to better reflect and represent the country we actually live in.

That fact that you can't even process that is WILD amounts of white privilege dawg

oh no i totally agree. film festivals go for the stories we don't see enough in hollywood, like actually interesting stories. why do you assume i don't think this? it's an assumption much like the others. i'm just getting at a principle that all these festivals have always shared which is quality first. people want to see some good shit.