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RTTP : Zelda BOTW is now the gold standard for level design in open world Fantasy games
- Thread starter Toriko
- Start date
Pretty much. Difficult to play other open world games after this one, none does it as well as BOTW, not even close. Something like Witcher 3 is just so poor in comparison - it's all GPS gameplay, no proper exploration.
I fail to see how they are essential. I found them to be a pain. Faster? Could you have some interesting combat sequences with them? You bet. Essential to the game? I don't think so. Is there a specific you can point to that makes you think that?
Not even close. Game is boring, world design is uninteresting and empty. Oddly after all my frustrations I beat it and actually somewhat enjoyed it. However... Game isn't anywhere near a "gold standard" for game design going forward.
That's purely your opinion. I found discovering those locations I saw from afar and little secrets and easter eggs more interesting than the scripted events and stuffs to do that were already plotted for me to do on the map.
I an interview Aonuma said at some point they wanted to test a specific part of the game, but found that all items they had placed in this part of the world were gone. They eventually found out that the wind/physics engine in the game was so realistic that all items were just blown away.
For sure, the way this world and its physics interact with each other is true mastercraft.
While I think people on this forum (and a lot of the gaming press as well) tend to massively overstate the uniqueness of BoTW's world design, I can't deny that there are things the game does that I would GLADLY see replacing some stale conventions in triple A open world games, if they were going to catch up.
The world is brilliant but is by no means the finished article in terms of how they should do all fantasy open worlds... in fact not even how they should do Zelda worlds.
They 100% nailed exploration, however I would love to see it be more living going forwards... and of course adding traditional dungeons into that format too.
They 100% nailed exploration, however I would love to see it be more living going forwards... and of course adding traditional dungeons into that format too.
I agree in general with the OP as I adore Botw. However the interchangeable usage of "world design" and "level design" hurts my head a bit. I actually found the level design, as in shrines and beasts to be mediocre really and not very interesting both mechanically and aesthetically. The world design (as in, the outside part) is masterfully though, and more than makes up for it.
I can't entirely agree. I think the biggest issue for me is that the world never felt lived in. I lost count of the number of NPCs who talked about what happened 100 years ago as though it had happened yesterday - as though there was nothing that had happened in the past century worth remarking on. With the exception of the ancient machines scattered through some places and the looming castle, nothing else in the world seemed to hint at what happened then or in the intervening time.
Other open worlds for all of their many faults, from Bethesda to CDPR to Rockstar, do a better job of letting their open world tell the story and while I really admire the strength of vision that the team behind Breath of the Wild had, it's world didn't connect with it's story, not in mind, and it's characters seemed like props.
Other open worlds for all of their many faults, from Bethesda to CDPR to Rockstar, do a better job of letting their open world tell the story and while I really admire the strength of vision that the team behind Breath of the Wild had, it's world didn't connect with it's story, not in mind, and it's characters seemed like props.
of course, honestly I can't fathom not agreeing here. Zelda makes every bit of the world's geometry meaningful. getting over a mountain becomes a puzzle in and of itself. it's a large ass world and yet every bit of it feels handcrafted and deliberate. I feel like there are certain things you can stumble on where it feels like the developers are winking at you for trying something. it's an astonishing feat in game design and frankly it only becomes more so with age.
God I hope not. I think BOTW is one of the most overrated games I've ever played. The open world is empty. All I'll find in the world are shrines or weapons that break after two hits. Hurray.....
What an absolute chore of a game for me personally. It took me almost an entire year to finish it because I had to force myself to play it.
What an absolute chore of a game for me personally. It took me almost an entire year to finish it because I had to force myself to play it.
But then again, that is not what the OP is really talking about. The level design which encourages the exploration is what he's getting at.
I think the most important thing here is that as fantastic as BotW's world design is, I don't actually know if it would work for other games, sadly. It's hard to reconcile it with prescribed progression, and prescribed progression is what most other open world games go for.
The story part starting from the river where you meet the zora prince and ending when you enter the divine beast is top tier gameplay, simply because it is essentially a hand-crafted gauntlet that forces you down a certain path by making it rain i.e. slippery surfaces so that you can't outsmart the developer by climbing over parts aka bypassing the level design, with 'intended' ways of playing the section that are clearly conveyed through the level design and enemy/object placement. That's what I want more of, but unfortunately there wasn't anything else that felt as involved and focused. Eventide island is another example of high quality, substance-filled gameplay but it doesn't last very long! << (the reason why games are shit these days; designing an intricate stage of high quality with no filler takes forever to make and fine-tune, while the player completes it within minutes. The financial incentive just isn't there, especially when gamers are perfectly happy with substance-less worlds)
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Why? You can have a definite marker for the main quests and have world design like this. It would still work. I think the bigger challenge is in recreating a dense world with towns etc that adapt to this design. BOTW for better or worse is a lot more empty than traditional AAA open worlds. The challenge would be to marry the density of a modern AAA open world with this design which I am hoping the next Elder Scrolls nail.
I agree. Exploring is really fun in this game but, as you've also said, the things we're discovering are mostly big nothingburgers.
That's one of the reasons i look forward to the next "botw" style Zelda game because this first one really feels like a big test. They succeded with some and others need work. I think the next game will be way, way better.
That's one of the reasons i look forward to the next "botw" style Zelda game because this first one really feels like a big test. They succeded with some and others need work. I think the next game will be way, way better.
Agreed. Most of the time traversal was tedious, with huge places with nothing or the same enemies roaming around. Besides from a couple of interesting things, i fail to see how this is so grandiose.
Tbh i felt the world in DQ8 felt more alive.
Not for me. I found it far too big and lacking of meaningful (to me) things to find.
I'm just not big on open worlds or exploration in general though. I need a strong narrative driving all that traversal in open world games and meaningful things like more story-driven sidequests and/or powerful upgrades to find to motivate me to explore and not just mainline the story missions.
I get why people love BOTW and it's world though and I'm fine just saying it wasn't really my cup of tea. Few Nintendo games are anymore.
I'm just not big on open worlds or exploration in general though. I need a strong narrative driving all that traversal in open world games and meaningful things like more story-driven sidequests and/or powerful upgrades to find to motivate me to explore and not just mainline the story missions.
I get why people love BOTW and it's world though and I'm fine just saying it wasn't really my cup of tea. Few Nintendo games are anymore.
BOTW is a great game, but...
Can't explore/do much underwater, have to "wait" for rains to end before climbing again, not nearly enough story collectibles. The Witcher 3 had already done the "castle visible from everywhere" landmark thing in Skellige and Blood & Wine, and Assassin's Creed Odyssey has already surpassed BOTW in several areas (it's a fantasy game because your main weapon is a magical spear head and you fight mythical creatures, among other things which I won't spoil).
So great game, good use of verticality, good physics interactions, some interesting landmasses. But not sublime or a gold standard, no.
Can't explore/do much underwater, have to "wait" for rains to end before climbing again, not nearly enough story collectibles. The Witcher 3 had already done the "castle visible from everywhere" landmark thing in Skellige and Blood & Wine, and Assassin's Creed Odyssey has already surpassed BOTW in several areas (it's a fantasy game because your main weapon is a magical spear head and you fight mythical creatures, among other things which I won't spoil).
So great game, good use of verticality, good physics interactions, some interesting landmasses. But not sublime or a gold standard, no.
It's not the gold standard. It's empty as fuck.
BotW doesn't come anywhere close to the immersion and level of detail found in RDR2.
BotW doesn't come anywhere close to the immersion and level of detail found in RDR2.
Well, a lot of "invisible hand of the maker" moments in BotW come only because the game allows you to approach anything anywhere anytime from any angle in three dimensions. That kind of liberated approach comes solely from the fact that the game gates nothing and you're allowed to do your thing from the get go once you get off the Plateau. However, that is also antithetical to the prescribed story progression design of most open world games, which is why I find it difficult to think that they can be reconciled. Elder Scrolls I feel could do it, but not many others, not without losing a lot of what they're going for.
But I think BotW feels just natural and organic, like no other game. The world is completely cohesive and makes sense from where and when the game takes place. I don't need to stumble upon a so called "dungeon" every two meters, or a "boss" with special "loot" to upgrade my "ability tree". Everything in BotW makes sense and I don't miss a single thing.
But you know, I can even run around in the world of Shadow of the Colossus for hours, exploring, having fun, although there is nothing to "get". It's just melancholic and beautiful and stimulates my imagination.
Playing these games is incredibly refreshing after getting spoiled by tons and TONS of symbols, direction indicators and onscreen to-do lists in every other game these days.
Turn on the Pro HUD for maximum fun.
This is awesome.
The developers said they created this game so that players can find their own solutions to do things, even solutions they haven't even thought of, and that's one example.
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The two main things for other open world games to take from BOTW is the design of its open world allows you to remember the locations of things based on landmarks, you don't have to be constantly looking at your minimap. The other thing is the climbing, it's exceedingly well done, perhaps the best in an open world game? I know that other games allow you to climb up anywhere now like the new Assassin's Creed games but at least with BOTW there's a bit of a challenge involved with the stamina meter.
I think they only went half way with the whole, using landmarks to guide you thing because they still use a minimap, which is sort of a cop out. There are other things that bother me with the respawning enemies which limits a sense of progression, the general ease of being able to kill anything or anyone even early on, that's not ideal. It's poor itemization and loot progression because weapons break.
Gothic is still the king. There is no minimap. When you first start playing, you don't even get a map, you have to buy one and once you do they are usually incomplete, giving the sense they are actually hand made. When you kill beasts and people in the area, they stay dead. You get a sense of progression through experience and the world is forever changed based on your actions. A few animals will repopulate some areas in further chapters to some degree but it's not the same. Items are hand placed and meaningful. Armor is very significant, tied to a faction progression and makes you dramatically more powerful.
The joy of exploration in Gothic is unmatched IMO, there are fantastical areas that are gated off in an organic way by beasts/monsters that you cannot defeat until you get strong enough. Eventually you sense the joy of finally being able to defeat them and are rewarded with new vistas and ruins to explore.
I think they only went half way with the whole, using landmarks to guide you thing because they still use a minimap, which is sort of a cop out. There are other things that bother me with the respawning enemies which limits a sense of progression, the general ease of being able to kill anything or anyone even early on, that's not ideal. It's poor itemization and loot progression because weapons break.
Gothic is still the king. There is no minimap. When you first start playing, you don't even get a map, you have to buy one and once you do they are usually incomplete, giving the sense they are actually hand made. When you kill beasts and people in the area, they stay dead. You get a sense of progression through experience and the world is forever changed based on your actions. A few animals will repopulate some areas in further chapters to some degree but it's not the same. Items are hand placed and meaningful. Armor is very significant, tied to a faction progression and makes you dramatically more powerful.
The joy of exploration in Gothic is unmatched IMO, there are fantastical areas that are gated off in an organic way by beasts/monsters that you cannot defeat until you get strong enough. Eventually you sense the joy of finally being able to defeat them and are rewarded with new vistas and ruins to explore.
I'd take every day the "empty" world from BotW that lets me explore everywhere over the over-bloated world full of the same events and silly limitations (I love the invisible snipers that kill you in RDR2 if you try to go near Blackwater) from RDR2. I know that both games aim to different experiences, but I had lots more fun exploring BotW than exploring RDR2. In fact, aside from the graphics and some historical references, I found exploring RDR2 really boring most of the time (and frustrating).
its funny, i see a lot posts about Botw world and how much there is, the triangle rule but it always felt so sparse to me - you may find a collapsed house or something but you'd get some arrows.
I explored basically te whole world and it was kind of fun but i rarely felt rewarded when i found something . it was juts 'oh, another empty half house'
I found things but there was usually not much to do when you found them. or it was just another moblin encounter.
I explored basically te whole world and it was kind of fun but i rarely felt rewarded when i found something . it was juts 'oh, another empty half house'
I found things but there was usually not much to do when you found them. or it was just another moblin encounter.
A good zelda dungeon will forever be a better example of great level design than this way too spacious overworld. Sadly BOTW had no good dungeons.
yep i hope more and more games take BotW as example, even going from random point A to random point B on the map feels great unlike many other open worlds.
Also Toriko, I knew you were always appreciative of BotW, but I never imagined I would see you being so unrestrained in praising it haha. I guess RDR2 really did a number on you ;P
I dug Breath of the Wild because, to me, it was incredibly memorable. It definitely lacked dungeon and enemy variety, but it did more in the way of environmental puzzles than most games I can list. Some of the riddles were incredibly clever - for example one shrine opening at a certain time of day when a shadow is cast upon it. Or I remember having to camp out on a frozen mountain waiting for a particular thing to occur, and having to stay close to a home-made fire to avoid freezing.
I think these examples highlight to me why BotW succeeds - it isn't open-world for the sake of it, like a lot of games seem to be. It uses its open world nature to create an overworld that in itself plays like a dungeon. It's a natural expansion from Skyward Sword, where getting to dungeons is as much of an adventure as the dungeons themselves. You have to plot out where you want to go without relying on GPS waypoints to get you there. Your methods of traversal are as varied as climbing a cliffside to abusing the physics of the game to rocket yourself up using a metallic item and the stasis rune. The sense of exploration also really gelled with me - points of interest loom in the distance, often glowing neon orange, and you usually have several in your line of sight at once. Deciding which one to go for, and how to get there, was truly something special.
I don't think BotW is perfect, and it isn't my favourite Zelda game, but I don't think it's overhyped - the fun you can have controlling Link and pulling off crazy stunts alone makes it more enjoyable than most open world games I've played.
I think these examples highlight to me why BotW succeeds - it isn't open-world for the sake of it, like a lot of games seem to be. It uses its open world nature to create an overworld that in itself plays like a dungeon. It's a natural expansion from Skyward Sword, where getting to dungeons is as much of an adventure as the dungeons themselves. You have to plot out where you want to go without relying on GPS waypoints to get you there. Your methods of traversal are as varied as climbing a cliffside to abusing the physics of the game to rocket yourself up using a metallic item and the stasis rune. The sense of exploration also really gelled with me - points of interest loom in the distance, often glowing neon orange, and you usually have several in your line of sight at once. Deciding which one to go for, and how to get there, was truly something special.
I don't think BotW is perfect, and it isn't my favourite Zelda game, but I don't think it's overhyped - the fun you can have controlling Link and pulling off crazy stunts alone makes it more enjoyable than most open world games I've played.
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You can still design all side quests or side activities to be approached like that and at least some of the main quests that are not gated no? I think it could be a nice balance. The last thing I want in an RDR or a Horizon or a Witcher is being able to head straight for the final mission and complete the story in an hour. That is not what is the appealing part to me about Zelda's open world nor any open world.
Ha Ha I always liked BOTW. I know I may come off as negative sometimes because I think it could be sooo much better ( combat, bosses, loot etc.. ). However as far as open world level design for fantasy games go I always thought it was peerless. but playing RDR2 def did solidify it even more lol.
The thing about the triangle rule is that gamers are treating it like that gif of frustum culling from the horizon zero dawn devs. As in something they're just finding out devs do but are attributing it to one specific developer as a unique approach.
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Maybe it has been done before but rarely has it been done so well that makes even players stand up and notice. It has mastered it if nothing else.
Exactly. I've played lots of open world games, and BotW blew my mind with the way the game creates a world that makes you want to explore because it's fun, not because there's some item or NPC there. I know the game has some flaws here and there but for me, the exploration sensation is good enough to make BotW my GOAT without any doubt. This game is what I wanted from Morrowind, Skyrim, Tw3...
I agree that could be done for sure. I'm just a bit worried that would lead to the kind of dissonance between side activities and main story that something like Red Dead Redemption 2 has, where the open world is marvelous in enabling player agency, but you get whiplash from just how prescriptive the story missions are. I suppose simply gating the order of the story missions would be a better compromise, which I think is what you were saying.
And hey, I absolutely agree with you. I adore BotW and I think it's the best game ever made, but I think the most exciting thing about it is that in spite of that there are so many obvious areas of improvement that I can't wait to see what they pull next with the next one.
There's so much praise for exploration, but what good is it if there's nothing worth finding?
Korok seeds do nothing for me. It's a Collectathon feature. There's too many shrines, none of which posed a challenge I haven't been through in other games. I wouldn't mind repetition if it was fun, but for me it just isn't. Rolling balls to activate switches is a chore, not entertainment.
And this is the bulk of the game, along with tower climbing. This is what you spend the majority of the game doing.
The climbing being like a puzzle because of the stamina restriction is cool the first few times, but after that you just want to get where you're going. So overdose on shrines to get four of those little doodads so increase your stamina so you can lessen the tedium.
People speak of how organic the world is, but I guarantee you that every single time I lay a metal sword down during a storm it'll be struck by lightning. Every time. That's scripted.
By the same token I ran into a pack of Hyenas harassing some lions in AC Origins. I stumbled on that chance encounter once in over 40hrs of playtime. Now that's organic to me. That wasn't scripted.
I stopped played BotW at the giant Camel. The design was just...uninteresting when compared to the dungeons I'm used to seeing in Zelda.
But I'm ready to return to BotW, so that's a good thing. I walked away and gave myself time to build up interest in playing again, so maybe the second time around I'll enjoy it more? Maybe I overdid it with the shrines and it left me bitter.
We'll see, but other open world games have raised the bar for me.
Korok seeds do nothing for me. It's a Collectathon feature. There's too many shrines, none of which posed a challenge I haven't been through in other games. I wouldn't mind repetition if it was fun, but for me it just isn't. Rolling balls to activate switches is a chore, not entertainment.
And this is the bulk of the game, along with tower climbing. This is what you spend the majority of the game doing.
The climbing being like a puzzle because of the stamina restriction is cool the first few times, but after that you just want to get where you're going. So overdose on shrines to get four of those little doodads so increase your stamina so you can lessen the tedium.
People speak of how organic the world is, but I guarantee you that every single time I lay a metal sword down during a storm it'll be struck by lightning. Every time. That's scripted.
By the same token I ran into a pack of Hyenas harassing some lions in AC Origins. I stumbled on that chance encounter once in over 40hrs of playtime. Now that's organic to me. That wasn't scripted.
I stopped played BotW at the giant Camel. The design was just...uninteresting when compared to the dungeons I'm used to seeing in Zelda.
But I'm ready to return to BotW, so that's a good thing. I walked away and gave myself time to build up interest in playing again, so maybe the second time around I'll enjoy it more? Maybe I overdid it with the shrines and it left me bitter.
We'll see, but other open world games have raised the bar for me.
Because exploring is fun. What's good about walking to some NPC or quest marker if walking to the point is not fun? This is how I feel about RDR2 and most open world games, traversing the world is usually a waste of time.
The point of the exploration in BotW is the world itself. You get in game rewards but they are all ephemeral, so they're never the point.
You explore because the world beckons you to explore. That said, if the loop doesn't grab you, and you need tangible rewards to feel compelled to go out of your way, I can see why you would find BotW lacking.
Yeah, or why even go out in the real world and explore foreign countries?
Ok during some flights you get loot boxes, but that's it :(
I'd argue that it is a part of the level design, particularly in a consistent open world, but I can understand why some would feel differently. For me, I lost the energy to keep exploring because it felt oddly artificial, because nothing about it's look or feel seemed to marry with the narrative. As I say, I was really impressed with the game and admire the team for taking such a bold new direction and having so much success with what they set out to do, but the world and exploration has felt much more meaningful to me in other games.
Breath of the Wild and RDR2 really raised the bar for me. I agree, it's the standard now.
Makes it really hard going into games like Assassin's Creed and Far Cry.
Makes it really hard going into games like Assassin's Creed and Far Cry.