Doctor Who Series 11 |OT|- She’s Here, and It’s About Time

LL_Decitrig said:

He wrote The Hungry Earth, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, The Power of Three, and most of early Torchwood. That's quite an achievement for a clueless novice.

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Torchwood isn't Doctor Who, I said he has no idea about how to write Doctor Who. And the episodes you listed aren't universally accepted as "achievements".

Can you imagine, kids used to run around pretending to be daleks or the Master or cybermen or weeping angels. Now they'll run around pretending to be bubble wrap because that's the only bloody enemy that will be memorable from this series. Imo, the majority of people won't be able to name a single enemy/alien/threat faced by the Doctor in series 11, apart from giant spiders and fucking bubble wrap.

TimeWyrm said:

Torchwood isn't Doctor Who, I said he has no idea about how to write Doctor Who. And the episodes you listed aren't universally accepted as "achievements".

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Let's set aside Torchwood. I'll look at just one of those, to save space.

Okay, so Dinosaurs on a Spaceship may not be Flatline, but it's got a great location, innovative use of natural scenery as engineering, some engaging main characters, and cute dinosaurs. And the silliest giant robots since Marvin. And a satisfyingly evil antagonist.

Did it somehow fail to check one of the boxes required to make it great Doctor Who? Sorry I was too engrossed in the story to notice. I'll readily admit that the excellent supporting cast helps.

LL_Decitrig said:

Let's set aside Torchwood. I'll look at just one of those, to save space.

Okay, so Dinosaurs on a Spaceship may not be Flatline, but it's got a great location, innovative use of natural scenery as engineering, some engaging main characters, and cute dinosaurs. And the silliest giant robots since Marvin. And a satisfyingly evil antagonist.

Did it somehow fail to check one of the boxes required to make it great Doctor Who? Sorry I was too engrossed in the story to notice. I'll readily admit that the excellent supporting cast helps.

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It won't be remembered as one of the best stories ever, or even as average.

Even if you believe that a crap episode was good, it still proves that CC was the wrong choice for showrunner, as he lacks vision and the ability to write as a showrunner, and could only write a barely passable Doctor Who story while he was working under someone else's design.

Also, it will mean that the only stories of his, that will be remembered (so far), will be stories he wrote under Steven Moffat as showrunner, rather than any stories he has written as showrunner.

What does that say about his ability as a writer and showrunner...

I think, largely, Chibnall's contributions will be a foot note in the history of Who. He'll be praised for casting the first female Doctor, but beyond that, his further legacy hinges on if he can deliver a better second season than his first, and his track record doesn't inspire hope on that front. That's not to say that individually you can't enjoy his work, and this isn't a knock against his non-Who work, but I think it can be generally agreed upon that he was a poor fit for this show, and has done damage to the IP.

LL_Decitrig said:

Let's set aside Torchwood. I'll look at just one of those, to save space.

Okay, so Dinosaurs on a Spaceship may not be Flatline, but it's got a great location, innovative use of natural scenery as engineering, some engaging main characters, and cute dinosaurs. And the silliest giant robots since Marvin. And a satisfyingly evil antagonist.

Did it somehow fail to check one of the boxes required to make it great Doctor Who? Sorry I was too engrossed in the story to notice. I'll readily admit that the excellent supporting cast helps.

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I haven't seen it in years, but it was the first (maybe only) Matt Smith episode that I hated. And I had no idea about who the writer was then so I didn't have any bias against Chibnall. The episode was just way too absurdly silly for me, kind of the opposite of the issue with S11, and I don't have a great memory of the episode but I remember it struck me and a lot of other people as really weird how Eleven basically killed the guy in the end by aiming the missiles at his ship, so Chibnall seems to consistently have some weird writing for the Doctor's sense of morality.

Drewton said:

I haven't seen it in years, but it was the first (maybe only) Matt Smith episode that I hated. And I had no idea about who the writer was then so I didn't have any bias against Chibnall. The episode was just way too absurdly silly for me, kind of the opposite of the issue with S11, and I don't have a great memory of the episode but I remember it struck me and a lot of other people as really weird how Eleven basically killed the guy in the end by aiming the missiles at his ship, so Chibnall seems to consistently have some weird writing for the Doctor's sense of morality.

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Here's my perspective on it, and I say this as someone who is a relatively new fan to the franchise: I believe Chibnall has an adoration and fixation on the First Doctor, and the initial setup of the show. He wants the Doctor to remain morally grey, and acting less as a hero / savior and more as a casual observer who involves himself / herself into events and offers up a unique brand of justice and judgment. He also enjoys the Doctor being surrounded by a larger cast of characters, which can actually be traced back to that very episode.

Metallix87 said:

Here's my perspective on it, and I say this as someone who is a relatively new fan to the franchise: I believe Chibnall has an adoration and fixation on the First Doctor, and the initial setup of the show. He wants the Doctor to remain morally grey, and acting less as a hero / savior and more as a casual observer who involves himself / herself into events and offers up a unique brand of justice and judgment. He also enjoys the Doctor being surrounded by a larger cast of characters, which can actually be traced back to that very episode.

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You may be right, but I'd be much more OK with a more morally grey Doctor rather than a Doctor who's morality just doesn't make any sense. None of the Series 11 have framed the 13's decisions in any way that makes the audience think they should be questioned. They're not presented as difficult moral problems with seemingly no good solution. The companions never question 13. It's just bad writing.

One of the reasons Series 9 is so great is because did a fantastic job of examining the morality of the Doctor, and it does so very coherently. He's certainly not perfect in it. He'll always show compassion, as seen with Davros. But then we also see the negative impact and consequences of the Doctor's good intentions with Ashildir. Like the Tenth Doctor, Twelve doesn't feel like he gets what he deserves, he's lonely, he hates losing people. He's tired of following the rules. He thinks he's a hero in saving her but she ends up becoming immortal and feeling trapped within life. He basically repeats the same mistake with Clara, trying to stop her death because he can't stand being without her. And in both the opening and finale we see how without hope he can basically stop trying to be "the Doctor".

Drewton said:

You may be right, but I'd be much more OK with a more morally grey Doctor rather than a Doctor who's morality just doesn't make any sense. None of the Series 11 have framed the 13's decisions in any way that makes the audience think they should be questioned. The companions never question 13.

One of the reasons Series 9 is so great is because did a fantastic job of examining the morality of the Doctor, and it does so very coherently. He'll always show compassion, as seen with Davros. But then we also see the negative impact and consequences of the Doctor's good intentions with Ashildir. Like the Tenth Doctor, Twelve doesn't feel like he gets what he deserves, he's lonely, he hates losing people. He's tired of following the rules. He thinks he's a hero in saving her but she ends up becoming immortal and feeling trapped within life. He basically repeats the same mistake with Clara, trying to stop her death because he can't stand being without her. And in both the opening and finale we see how without hope he can basically stop trying to be "the Doctor".

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Right, but I think that speaks to Chibnall's ineptitude, which I've mentioned a lot the past couple of pages. He lacks the ability to handle the IP, and despite his intentions, can't hit the goals he has set for himself. As I said, we've ended up with a series wherein the Doctor is a mess as a character, she lacks chemistry with her companions, the companions on the whole are under-developed, and none of the central cast have cohesive character from episode-to-episode aside from Graham.

I actually think Chibnall made a key mistake in the first episode that set him up for failure, and it's one that could've made the "Tardis Team" dynamic more interesting: Grace should have lived and joined the Team, and Yaz should've remained behind as just a one-off. Having all three companions as an actual family unit, and having the Doctor act as this wacky sort-of "relative" who takes them on outrageous adventures through time and space every once in a while, would likely work a lot better with regards to character development on the whole, and result in more interesting connections between the core cast. This may not have fixed my issues with the Doctor and her characterization, but it would've strengthened our connections to Ryan and Graham, while also offering a third character on the team that is centrally connected to them and can be someone who, at least in my opinion, works better as a team member willing to push Graham and especially Ryan into going deeper into mysteries and adventures with the Doctor.

Metallix87 said:

Here's my perspective on it, and I say this as someone who is a relatively new fan to the franchise: I believe Chibnall has an adoration and fixation on the First Doctor, and the initial setup of the show. He wants the Doctor to remain morally grey, and acting less as a hero / savior and more as a casual observer who involves himself / herself into events and offers up a unique brand of justice and judgment. He also enjoys the Doctor being surrounded by a larger cast of characters, which can actually be traced back to that very episode.

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The First Doctor was alot darker than the 13th has been so far. And casual observer? He almost killed a caveman, and manipulated his companions. And people paid attention to him, when he wanted. No one really gives a crap what the 13th has to say.

Look at the Reign of Terror to see how the First Doctor handled the timeline etc, and interfering.

Regarding your point about the makeup of Team Tardis, imo, it would have been better if the companions belonged to different times. It would have given a multi layered relationship to the team, maybe more discussions between them and less blindly following the Doctor, without questioning.

TimeWyrm said:

The first Doctor was alot darker than the 13th has been so far. And casual observer? He almost killed a caveman, and manipulated his companions. And people paid attention to him, when he wanted. No one really gives a crap what the 13th has to say.

Look at the Reign of Terror to see how the First Doctor handled the timeline etc, and interfering.

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Like I said above, Chibnall is not skilled enough to do it well, and it shows.

As for my "casual observer" comment, I moreso meant that he wasn't directly interested in being this protector figure that the Doctor gradually became with subsequent incarnations.

Metallix87 said:

Right, but I think that speaks to Chibnall's ineptitude, which I've mentioned a lot the past couple of pages. He lacks the ability to handle the IP, and despite his intentions, can't hit the goals he has set for himself. As I said, we've ended up with a series wherein the Doctor is a mess as a character, she lacks chemistry with her companions, the companions on the whole are under-developed, and none of the central cast have cohesive character from episode-to-episode aside from Graham.

I actually think Chibnall made a key mistake in the first episode that set him up for failure, and it's one that could've made the "Tardis Team" dynamic more interesting: Grace should have lived and joined the Team, and Yaz should've remained behind as just a one-off. Having all three companions as an actual family unit, and having the Doctor act as this wacky sort-of "relative" who takes them on outrageous adventures through time and space every once in a while, would likely work a lot better with regards to character development on the whole, and result in more interesting connections between the core cast. This may not have fixed my issues with the Doctor and her characterization, but it would've strengthened our connections to Ryan and Graham, while also offering a third character on the team that is centrally connected to them and can be someone who, at least in my opinion, works better as a team member willing to push Graham and especially Ryan into going deeper into mysteries and adventures with the Doctor.

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Oh I agree completely.

Although I feel that if Grace had survived then Graham would have been much less interesting as a character, I really like how his driving motivation to travel with 13 in the TARDIS is because he doesn't want to face life back at home without her. He's like the Doctor - he's running, from his grief. He's the one character that just works.

Drewton said:

Oh I agree completely.

Although I feel that if Grace had survived then Graham would have been much less interesting as a character, I really like how his driving motivation to travel with 13 in the TARDIS is because he doesn't want to face life back at home without her. He's like the Doctor, he's running, from his grief. He's the one character that just works.

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Unfortunately, it made Graham interesting, but it did nothing for the Doctor, Ryan, and Yaz, who are just lacking in character development and, more importantly, consistency.

Metallix87 said:

As for my "casual observer" comment, I moreso meant that he wasn't directly interested in being this protector figure that the Doctor gradually became with subsequent incarnations.

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Yes, I agree. I guess CC ( if that was his intention) cocked that up too.

TimeWyrm said:

Yes, I agree. I guess CC ( if that was his intention) cocked that up too.

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I mean, I think it's quite obvious that he's cocked up the entire season. There's no denying it, though as I said, I think we can argue endlessly as to what degree. The question now, in my mind, is where does he go from here? More importantly, if the rumors of him exiting next year are true, where does Who go from here?

Metallix87 said:

I mean, I think it's quite obvious that he's cocked up the entire season. There's no denying it, though as I said, I think we can argue endlessly as to what degree. The question now, in my mind, is where does he go from here? More importantly, if the rumors of him exiting next year are true, where does Who go from here?

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Well I'd definitely completely change things, but on a more immediate not here's how I think things could get more interesting for S12. Of course, it may come across as just a silly fanfic.

As much as I think Graham is the only good companion, he needs to die, for Ryan's sake, just as Ryan and Graham are really starting getting along as father and son, fist bumps included. Ryan is consumed by the need for revenge and takes it out on whoever killed him (Daleks?) (following up on his Call of Duty moment), and the Doctor feels shame over the death of Graham, the death of Grace, and now what's happening to Ryan. Graham's dying wish is that 13 keep Ryan safe, and she feels she can't keep Ryan on on the TARDIS anymore. She drops him off back at home, now orphaned, and Ryan can't forgive her.

After Graham's death, 13 becomes more committed to saving people, the rules be damned. Yaz stays on with the Doctor and enjoys the power of policing the galaxy, something she doesn't get from issuing traffic tickets in a small town. She continually pushes her to interfere more and more drastically in history (Time Lord Victorious), until in the finale some major crisis in time happens, the kind that the Doctor is always worried about will happen if history is interfered with too much.

Throughout the series, the Doctor is being tracked by enemy time travellers who turn out to have good intentions, as they want to stop her from destroying time itself, and they trap her on Earth with the help of Ryan.

Through time shenanigans, Ryan's arc concludes when he meets his mother again, who convinces him to forgive and let go of his anger.

The Doctor sacrifices herself to fix her mistakes and put time back in order. She regenerates and a new showrunner takes over.

For what it's worth, if Graham dies on NYD, I'll consider that extremely lazy on Chibnall's part.

I know they said there wouldn't be an overarching story, but I'm kind of hoping/speculating that dude Ryan sent to the past is going to cause some issues in the future.

Well, this is significantly better and makes the scene much more awesome.



Edit: and Rosa with the song removed.

What happened to costumes in this season?! I couldn't believe that the companions were wearing their casual brit clothes all episode long instead of dressing up in the Tardis like in previous seasons. And no comment from any of the villagers. Completely messes up the immersion, and makes me even more annoyed than seeing the companions roles written boring and uninspired.
I'm starting to get disappointed with this new season afterall :(

The viewing numbers we have for this season are just in the UK right?

I wonder how the ratings are in America. The series 9 opening which didn't do fantastically in the UK had the highest ratings to date for Doctor Who in the US.

Moffat, for all the hate he got as showrunner, wrote some of the most iconic NuWho episodes during the RTD era. He introduced the Weeping Angels and River Song. All the talk online when he was rumored/announced as showrunner was positive (except the weird backlash against Matt Smith) and for the most part Moffat delivered.

Chibnall had always been my least favorite writer during the Moffat era and it filled me with a sense of dread when he was announced as the showrunner. I regained some hope after watching Broadchurch and hoped he might be able to just manage Who and let actual good writers handle it but for the most part my fears have come to fruition. I will still watch but I hope either Chibnall hires more writers and takes a hands off approach or he gets replaced.

Drewton said:

The viewing numbers we have for this season are just in the UK right?

I wonder how the ratings are in America. The series 9 opening which didn't do fantastically in the UK had the highest ratings to date for Doctor Who in the US.

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They have been, though figures abroad don't matter as much as the BBC isn't technically allowed to take foreign sales into account when commissioning shows (because of the license fee remit etc etc) - if a show does well abroad it's a bonus, but not much else. This is why despite the huge international growth in general, the Smith era never actually got any more money, because it was sort of treading water and maintaining in the UK rather than growing.

TimeWyrm said:

It won't be remembered as one of the best stories ever, or even as average.

Even if you believe that a crap episode was good, it still proves that CC was the wrong choice for showrunner, as he lacks vision and the ability to write as a showrunner, and could only write a barely passable Doctor Who story while he was working under someone else's design.

Also, it will mean that the only stories of his, that will be remembered (so far), will be stories he wrote under Steven Moffat as showrunner, rather than any stories he has written as showrunner.

What does that say about his ability as a writer and showrunner...

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I don't think there's any issue at all with Chris Chibnall as a showrunner. After eight episodes we're seeing a high quality show, slightly more episodic, with two episodes in particular making waves through their treatment of historical themes in a way that's accessible to a broader audience.

On what audiences thought of Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, I can add the Audience Appreciation metric of 87 (considered excellent) and the fact that the episode's iPlayer requests were second in number only to Asylum of the Daleks.

I've often noted that fan communities acquire very odd ideas about the franchises they're ostensibly devoted to. The contrast between the public appreciation of this episode and the anecdotes we see here confirms that.

I do also note that there is a large lacuna between "episode I didn't like" and incompetent writing.

This scene is why the Ninth Doctor is my favorite. He had a short and sweet story arc.

Drewton said:

Well, this is significantly better and makes the scene much more awesome.



Edit: and Rosa with the song removed.

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Well those certainly gave those scenes a bit more oomf

TimeWyrm said:

I don't think CC understands Doctor Who, the show about a mysterious time traveller... well, he understands the time travelling.
Why is it that the team haven't asked the Doctor anything at all about herself on screen, like just about every other companion has?
This series feels more like an intermission - what the Doctor does in between the normal global and/or universal threats.

Why did CC feel a need to tone down Doctor Who?

Michael Grade must be so happy...

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Michael Grade would be jealous of the ratings.

I'm still sticking to my initial (a few episodes in) opinion of Chibnall - he's a good showrunner who has nudged Who in directions I'm happy with and have been looking for for ages (less superheroic, more companions, a bit more subdued and creature-of-the-week rather than massive arcs etc.) but he's not a good enough writer to handle half of the episodes himself, and there are some technical issues with his writing and some characterisation that I have a problem with.

This could be relatively easily solved with him taking a step back into a more purely showrunner role and relying on a core of 2-3 writers to drive the programme, and padding out the schedule with guest writers. Not sure whether he would do that, but it seems a more plausible way to get my desired outcome (Chibnall's broad direction with better week-to-week writing) than expecting he will suddenly become a more satisfying writer for next series.

Metallix87 said:

That's not to say that individually you can't enjoy his work, and this isn't a knock against his non-Who work, but I think it can be generally agreed upon that he was a poor fit for this show, and has done damage to the IP.

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Seeing how well this series has been doing both critically and commercially, no, we can;t generally agree that he's doing damage to the IP. I find it a nice breath of fresh air after how stale Moffat's run got at the end.

Drewton said:

Well, this is significantly better and makes the scene much more awesome.



Edit: and Rosa with the song removed.

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Holy shit that's better. I loved the Rosa episode up until that last scene with the song... I'd honestly love a fan edit release of the episode with just the last scene replaced by this, and I would never watch the original again.

Kinsei said:

Seeing how well this series has been doing both critically and commercially, no, we can;t generally agree that he's doing damage to the IP. I find it a nice breath of fresh air after how stale Moffat's run got at the end.

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What about it is a breath of fresh air, exactly? I've elaborated on the flaws I see week after week. I simply don't understand.

As for Moffat's run, if anything, Chibnall has made me realize how good we had it. Moffat understood the Doctor and understood how to develop his core cast.

Metallix87 said:

What about it is a breath of fresh air, exactly? I've elaborated on the flaws I see week after week. I simply don't understand.

As for Moffat's run, if anything, Chibnall has made me realize how good we had it. Moffat understood the Doctor and understood how to develop his core cast.

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Much less of a focus on the Doctor. The Doctor herself being far less grandiose. (Seriously the big angry speeches get tiring), a bigger focus on the human element (That's not to say there wasn't episodes more focused on the human element in Moffat's run, just they were fewer and farther between), and the overall slower pace. Now that's not to say there aren't flaws, but I've been enjoying this series a whole lot more than both 9 & 10.

My girlfriend loved Doctor Who, and she's pretty easy going about tv shows but she absolutely hates this season.

I'm cool with it, and enjoys some episodes. Though I'm in the minority likely.

Kinsei said:

Much less of a focus on the Doctor. The Doctor herself being far less grandiose. (Seriously the big angry speeches get tiring), a bigger focus on the human element (That's not to say there wasn't episodes more focused on the human element in Moffat's run, just they were fewer and farther between), and the overall slower pace. Now that's not to say there aren't flaws, but I've been enjoying this series a whole lot more than both 9 & 10.

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See, but this is precisely why I dislike this season. These changes came at a radical cost: Chemistry between the core cast and character development took a huge hit. Ironically, the slower pace should have helped these matters, but Chibnall and his team seem more happy waiting screen time than utilising it to maximum effect.

Metallix87 said:

I think, largely, Chibnall's contributions will be a foot note in the history of Who. He'll be praised for casting the first female Doctor, but beyond that, his further legacy hinges on if he can deliver a better second season than his first, and his track record doesn't inspire hope on that front. That's not to say that individually you can't enjoy his work, and this isn't a knock against his non-Who work, but I think it can be generally agreed upon that he was a poor fit for this show, and has done damage to the IP.

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In the 50th anniversary special, Moffat decided to undo the entire premise of RTD's run of the show. And remember when he showed respect to the Brigadier's actor passing away by digging up his grave, making him a cyborg zombie, and blasting him to space?

But yes, Chibnall wrote a boring episode, so please someone get the maniac away from the controls.

I've seen a lot of comments on other forums in particular where people are hating on this season because "it doesn't feel like Doctor Who" to which I can only laugh. Opinions on quality aside, this season's stories feel like the closest to an updated version of the Classic series so far (1st Doctor era in particular) and Jodie gives off major 5th Doctor vibes, IMO.

Kinsei said:

Much less of a focus on the Doctor. The Doctor herself being far less grandiose. (Seriously the big angry speeches get tiring), a bigger focus on the human element (That's not to say there wasn't episodes more focused on the human element in Moffat's run, just they were fewer and farther between), and the overall slower pace. Now that's not to say there aren't flaws, but I've been enjoying this series a whole lot more than both 9 & 10.

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I'd thoroughly agree with this. The slower pace, less manic tone, lower stakes and larger-seeming universe (having everything revolve around the Doctor really makes the show feel claustrophobic) brought me back to the show after giving up partway through the Capaldi era.

Kinsei said:

Much less of a focus on the Doctor. The Doctor herself being far less grandiose. (Seriously the big angry speeches get tiring), a bigger focus on the human element (That's not to say there wasn't episodes more focused on the human element in Moffat's run, just they were fewer and farther between), and the overall slower pace. Now that's not to say there aren't flaws, but I've been enjoying this series a whole lot more than both 9 & 10.

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It's a breath of fresh air. All that's missing for me is better dialogue and a bit more urgency leading up to the climax.

Ventilaator said:

In the 50th anniversary special, Moffat decided to undo the entire premise of RTD's run of the show. And remember when he showed respect to the Brigadier's actor passing away by digging up his grave, making him a cyborg zombie, and blasting him to space?

But yes, Chibnall wrote a boring episode, so please someone get the maniac away from the controls.

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That's a pretty awful over-simplification of things, don't you think? Honestly, I think it's pretty scummy to boil down everything I've said to just "boring" and then paint a moronic picture of Moffat's era with two non-contextualized examples. But sure, you do you.

milamber182 said:

I've seen a lot of comments on other forums in particular where people are hating on this season because "it doesn't feel like Doctor Who" to which I can only laugh. Opinions on quality aside, this season's stories feel like the closest to an updated version of the Classic series so far (1st Doctor era in particular) and Jodie gives off major 5th Doctor vibes, IMO.

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I don't really see much of the 5th Doctor, but as I noted earlier, I definitely think the intention is to mirror the First Doctor and his stories, but I'm not sure why, honestly. Every subsequent Doctor tried distancing themselves greatly from that portrayal in various ways, and for obvious reasons. Hartnell's Doctor regularly ranks incredibly low on fan lists of best Doctor.

Kinsei said:

Much less of a focus on the Doctor. The Doctor herself being far less grandiose. (Seriously the big angry speeches get tiring), a bigger focus on the human element (That's not to say there wasn't episodes more focused on the human element in Moffat's run, just they were fewer and farther between), and the overall slower pace. Now that's not to say there aren't flaws, but I've been enjoying this series a whole lot more than both 9 & 10.

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I (mostly) love Moffat's first season, but it went sharply downhill after that. I also (mostly) loved his standalone stories when RTD was in charge.

However my favorite Moffat-wrtten masterpiece (not Who) is the mini-series 'Jekyll' from 2007 - I loved that. If anyone hasn't seen it please seek it out.

Dwebble said:

Hartnell ranks low on fan lists because large chunks of his era are missing, and because the stagebound nature of most early 60s Who doesn't appeal to a fair chunk of fans. It's not really a fair comparison.

It's certainly not just because Hartnell's not very good- he's remarkable.

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I think most of his episodes just aren't very good either. Not bad, really. They occupy some middle space of "sure that was ok" that don't otherwise leave much of an impression. Now that I think of it, not that different from S11 actually!

But yes Hartnell is amazing in that role. Before I'd actually see him I'd always dismissed him out of hand as a curdmegonly grumpy old man. But actually seeing him in action, he's fantastic. One of my favorites.

Dwebble said:

Hartnell ranks low on fan lists because large chunks of his era are missing, and because the stagebound nature of most early 60s Who doesn't appeal to a fair chunk of fans. It's not really a fair comparison.

It's certainly not just because Hartnell's not very good- he's remarkable.

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Again, I think it's not about the actor so much. Jodie isn't really the problem with current Who, for instance.

I think it's frankly easier for people to enjoy a character with much more consistency and development who is a central hero as opposed to, as I called it earlier on this page, the casual observer who passes judgment. I think it makes for richer stories and stronger character connections. I won't say it's fact, but it's my own observations on the matter. For perspective, I am a relatively new Who fan in the grand scheme of things, and my first real exposure to classic Who was in binge amounts during the Twitch marathon. I also entirely missed the Second Doctor, and my only current exposure to him came from the team-up episodes of that era.

Metallix87 said:

Again, I think it's not about the actor so much. Jodie isn't really the problem with current Who, for instance.

I think it's frankly easier for people to enjoy a character with much more consistency and development who is a central hero as opposed to, as I called it earlier on this page, the casual observer who passes judgment. I think it makes for richer stories and stronger character connections. I won't say it's fact, but it's my own observations on the matter. For perspective, I am a relatively new Who fan in the grand scheme of things, and my first real exposure to classic Who was in binge amounts during the Twitch marathon. I also entirely missed the Second Doctor, and my only current exposure to him came from the team-up episodes of that era.

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Bad exposure then. The Second Doctor is fantastic but he's like a parody of himself in the multi Doctor stories.

Nikus said:

Bad exposure then. The Second Doctor is fantastic but he's like a parody of himself in the multi Doctor stories.

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That's why I'm largely ignoring him from my analysis. I'm basing my thoughts on the First Doctor and the differences in portrayal brought about by the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Doctors, who from my perspective are the trio from whom New Who evolved from.

Metallix87 said:

That's why I'm largely ignoring him from my analysis. I'm basing my thoughts on the First Doctor and the differences in portrayal brought about by the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Doctors, who from my perspective are the trio from whom New Who evolved from.

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It's been pretty heavily established that the Second Doctor was the incarnation that most of the New Who actors based their performances on, though. The Doctor, as we know the character now, essentially began with Troughton.

Although, the darker side of the Doctor, would, I presume, come from the Sixth and Seventh Doctors.

Man, nothing's working this series, except maybe Graham. It's almost over already and I'd be totally fine never seeing 13, Ryan or Yaz ever again after it.

PlanetSmasher said:

It's been pretty heavily established that the Second Doctor was the incarnation that most of the New Who actors based their performances on, though. The Doctor, as we know the character now, essentially began with Troughton.

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I've heard that, though as I mentioned, I had very little exposure to Troughton, so I can't speak to that with any real authority. My point still stands, regardless. Hartnell's Doctor came first, but he's not the character people grew to love in subsequent series. The Doctor evolved passed him, and I'd suggest the vast majority of modern fans are fans because of the efforts of later Doctors. That being said, Chibnall claims he wants to harken back to the First Doctor, which I believe is a mistake, but he's done so very poorly thus far. Characters are largely all over the place, the writing is sloppy at best, and the weak stories and decisions have resulted in some of the absolute worst villains the show has seen in years.

I'm not against change, but I liken this to Batman using guns. Batman initially used guns and executed criminals and monsters, but this was dropped after a few years, and Batman's current status and overall popularity evolved from his softening and newer code.

Metallix87 said:

That's why I'm largely ignoring him from my analysis. I'm basing my thoughts on the First Doctor and the differences in portrayal brought about by the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Doctors, who from my perspective are the trio from whom New Who evolved from.

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Yeah but I'd sugget you watch some of his episodes whenever you feel like it, he's really great :)
The trio 2nd Doc/Jamie/Zoe is top tier Tardis team!