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Doctor Who Series 11 |OT|- She’s Here, and It’s About Time
- Thread starter Dwebble
- Start date
Oh, sorry, I wasn't thinking much outside of wanting to point out the general negative reactions to this season and CC's responsibility for the train wreck.
Much like Kerblam!, I loved 80% of the episode and then it kinda devolves into a messy finish. There's part of me that's like "Yay, we still get stupid rubbery moments in Doctor Who", but also the ending is super rushed and wholly unconnected from the interesting themes built up previously. Other than that I thought it was pretty alright!
More than sloppy writing and meh villains this is definitely my biggest grievance with the series so far. Which is weird, considering the series seemed to be selling itself on its core characters and the importance of their relationship with the Doctor, and a return to the 'character drama' of the RTD era. The companions and Doctor just get along and after ~12 years of interesting Doctor/companion relationships it's such a bummer.
It also feels like the companions have had next to no development. The bit early on in this episode where the Doctor talks about not meddling with time made me think that this was originally meant to come earlier in the season, but it literally didn't matter because all of the characters act the same now as they did in episode 2. Other than seeing interesting things and helping people what have any of them learnt or how have they changed? We're still at the point where people are going "Wow, Yaz did something police-officer-y" as if that counts as a character point.
More than sloppy writing and meh villains this is definitely my biggest grievance with the series so far. Which is weird, considering the series seemed to be selling itself on its core characters and the importance of their relationship with the Doctor, and a return to the 'character drama' of the RTD era. The companions and Doctor just get along and after ~12 years of interesting Doctor/companion relationships it's such a bummer.
It also feels like the companions have had next to no development. The bit early on in this episode where the Doctor talks about not meddling with time made me think that this was originally meant to come earlier in the season, but it literally didn't matter because all of the characters act the same now as they did in episode 2. Other than seeing interesting things and helping people what have any of them learnt or how have they changed? We're still at the point where people are going "Wow, Yaz did something police-officer-y" as if that counts as a character point.
"Molten disaster" sure seems like hyperbole for the highest ratings the show has seen in some time plus generally positive (if underwhelmed) reactions I read here and elsewhere.
If "molten disaster" applies to modern Who in any sense, it'd be to S6.
If "molten disaster" applies to modern Who in any sense, it'd be to S6.
I thought S7 was worse than S6. I think S11 is about the same level as S7 in terms of my personal enjoyment.
However, I have to agree that this season isn't a molten disaster by any means. It's a string of "alright" and "ok" reactions from episode to episode.
I haven't had a chance to watch last night's episode yet but Kerblam! so far is the only story that has a memorable hook to it. The exploding bubble wrap may seem silly but it's one of those things that sticks in my mind every time I go to use some bubble wrap now, which is surprisingly often.
The Doctor's companions are there to keep the Doctor grounded, as in to stop him/her from going too far (I can't remember, was it Clara that told him not to travel alone because of how far he could go?)
But if the 13th Doctor is so passive in the first place, then what role do the companions play ?
But if the 13th Doctor is so passive in the first place, then what role do the companions play ?
I wouldn't call this series a disaster in terms of quality, but I do think a new showrunner's first series ought to truly impress, and I don't think this has done that at all.
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I enjoyed last nights witch episode. Alan Cumming was an excellent guest star. It was also good because like a couple of previous episodes, it shines a light on some interesting history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_modern_period
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_modern_period
I mean, I'm speaking in terms of opinion here. Using ratings to contextualize a season is akin to using sales figures to contextualize a film. "Venom" is a runaway success, as was "Suicide Squad", but I wouldn't consider either even decent. I think this season has been fuck awful, with almost zero redeeming qualities.
So, with two episodes to go, what are people's opinions on not having any two-parters this series?
Would having had two-parters to any of the stories we've seen, made any difference in your opinion ?
For me, the Witchfinders should've been a two-parter, and considering the tone of the series, maybe starting the series with a two-parter, could have made a difference.
Would having had two-parters to any of the stories we've seen, made any difference in your opinion ?
For me, the Witchfinders should've been a two-parter, and considering the tone of the series, maybe starting the series with a two-parter, could have made a difference.
That part was cool. I had no idea James I was such a fanatic about it. That Demonlogie book on her nightstand is real and he wrote it too.
Specifically why I combined the impressions here, since "disaster" could apply to ratings or general consensus, as well as personal opinion. Didn't know which of the three you might mean, an IMHO would have cleared that up.
I don't mean to dunk on your opinion, but I do get a tic when people state strong outlier opinions like simple fact.
Agree wholeheartedly.
It's going to be interesting to look at this again in a few years, as in my experience most Who improves with repeat viewing and/or time. My kids got into who just as S10 was starting, and binged it all, so I rewatched a lot of the show. A lot of episodes I hated before I found merely "meh" the second time, and once that were forgettable were more enjoyable. Only a few went down in my esteem.
I'm pretty "meh" on this season, although it's definitely been better when Chibnall isn't writing or isn't the sole writer.
I think, given what we had, the writing wasn't strong enough for individual stories, so I shudder to think what a CC two-parter this season would look like.
I'm not missing the two-parters per se, but I am missing stories with a little more scope and/or stakes*.
* Witchfinders literally had the fate of the world at stake, technically, but nothing to make you feel it. The Med Ship episode had a handful of lives at stake and felt far more epic. So I guess not literally stakes so much as... tension? Scale? Drama?
The main thing I've been really surprised by is that not one episode has felt like it's truly benefited from the extra 5 minutes running time. I don't know if that's a problem with the format or with the pace Chibnall decided to shoot for, but yeah. Every episode (except episode 1, which used its hour quite well) could've easily been 45 with some tight cutting, and even probably would've been better episodes for it.
I definitely miss the two-parters but Witchfinders was probably the only episode that could support one. The stories this year are so small scale here they can barely support one episode, or all overall pointless, like Demons of Punjab, which wasted a ton of time on a red herring.
I also think they could all benefit from having the cold open which was always an efficient way to establish context.
I can definitely say this is my least favorite season for now. And it's not like the episodes are awful (except Kerblam which had an absolutely terrible message), but more, like... aggressively mediocre. It has no ambition and no lasting impact on the mind. Even my least favorite seasons (S2 and I guess S7) had standouts and were trying to achieve something even if they failed. Here ? Nothing.
I mean, I understand I'm at the extreme here, but as I've noted earlier in this thread, I definitely think opinions thus far skew more negative than positive, though people continue to give CC and Jodie the benefit of the doubt week after week. The praise given that I've seen is always somewhat derisive as I noted, with "this is the most Who-like episode" being the most common sort of comment each week.
I think this season has had two relatively mediocre episodes ("Rosa" and "Kerblam!") and the rest have thus far been varying degrees of awful. I also feel "The Ghost Monument" is a strong contender for top 5 worst episodes of New Who, easily.
The flaws this season are numerous: The writing is largely shit, the characters are glaringly under-developed, there is little chemistry between the Doctor and her companions, the cinematography, designs, and visual tones are at odds with the new Doctor's direction, and there's no character consistency from episode to episode besides in Graham. I honestly feel CC is so inept as a showrunner that it borders on embarrassing.
I'm not convinced the Morax would have been interesting enough to justify a second part focused on them. They were there to be a catalyst to the story, but the big climax was the Doctor's witch trial and they just needed getting rid of after that.
Two parters are good for larger scale stories, which this season hasn't actually attempted. I don't think there's any stories as it is that could have been drawn out over two.
Two parters are good for larger scale stories, which this season hasn't actually attempted. I don't think there's any stories as it is that could have been drawn out over two.
I don't think this season is a disaster -- clearly it's working for a lot of people in way that the Capaldi seasons didn't for them, unfortunately -- and even on the episodes I don't really care for I don't come away thinking wow, that really sucked. But I do think this is the least impressed I've been with a Doctor Who season so far.
Even in what I thought were overall rough years, like seasons 1 and 2, there'd be a few really standout episodes that made a big impression from the start. When I think back to each modern Doctor's first year, and the episodes from those seasons I loved most -- Father's Day, The Girl in the Fireplace, The Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, The Eleventh Hour, The Time of Angels, Into the Dalek, Listen, Mummy on the Orient Express, The Caretaker, Flatline -- there's nothing in S11 so far that comes close to these stories. Not yet anyway.
The Woman Who Fell to Earth and The Ghost Monument is kind of a two-parter.
Even in what I thought were overall rough years, like seasons 1 and 2, there'd be a few really standout episodes that made a big impression from the start. When I think back to each modern Doctor's first year, and the episodes from those seasons I loved most -- Father's Day, The Girl in the Fireplace, The Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, The Eleventh Hour, The Time of Angels, Into the Dalek, Listen, Mummy on the Orient Express, The Caretaker, Flatline -- there's nothing in S11 so far that comes close to these stories. Not yet anyway.
The Woman Who Fell to Earth and The Ghost Monument is kind of a two-parter.
This was my fear about the reduced episode order. Trading 2-3 episodes for an extra five minutes of time per episode seems like as something Chibnall did just out of familiarity -- that's about the # of episodes per series and run time per episode that he's comfortable with, and did not want to pressure himself into writing more episodes or shorter episodes than that. I remember when it was first announced that S11 was dropping down to 10 episodes but would make each one longer, and some people were arguing that this would give stories more room to breathe, but 45 mins vs. 50 mins does not strike as an appreciable difference in story real estate.
I don't really agree on the degree, but I certainly am somewhere on the same continuum with you on those specific criticisms. I think Rosa and Demons of Punjab were really good, but absolutely this hasn't felt very like Who most of the time, and I agree with your list of flaws if not their severity. I wouldn't call the writing shit, but it's had glaringly weird moments and a lot of clunkiness. Most of which went away after Chiball's solo-written episodes were past.
Ghost Monument is bad but it's not worst-five bad and it's not even the worst this season-- that's the Spider episode.
Most of all, I want Who to be BIGGER. It's like the entire season has been aiming at Vincent and the Doctor (really good episode!) but hasn't even tried for a really epic challenge.
Hm, I'm not sure I'd agree with that on paper. I think that even 5 additional minutes can do a lot to make a story's pace better : less abrupt cuts, a few more lines of dialogue here and there to better establish character relationships or world-building... just a, say, 10 to 15 seconds can add a lot of tension to a scene, and part of screenwriting is to distribute those precious seconds and minutes in the best way possible.
For instance, some of the more "problematic" Moffat episodes (Name of The Doctor, The Wedding of River Song, Let's Kill Hitler) suffer because Moffat tried to fit too much in 42 to 45 minutes, and just 5 additional ones would have helped (I'd add that most of his best episodes are either two-parters, or have an extended length, or even both (Heaven Sent is 55 min while Hell Bent is 65, for instance).
Of course, sometimes, a shorter runtime can help too, if you want a more fast-paced episode (Blink being, ironically, the best example). Ideally, I think most TV shows would benefit from having flexible runtimes, but of course the TV medium doesn't really allow that as it's based on regularity.
Problem is I don't think there is THAT much to fit in Chibnall's episode. They're rather simplistic both in style and substance, and I actually think they would benefit from having a shorter (42) runtime : would feel a lot more energetic that way, at least.
Name of The Doctor, The Wedding of River Song, Let's Kill Hitler, are all bad in their basic conception. More time is not going to help any of them.
Agreed. The final couple of episodes will have to be pretty amazing to prevent this series from ending up on the bottom of the pile for me. I think I'll be appreciating Moffat more and more, as most of my favourite Who episodes were from him during the RTD era and his own era, the 50th anniversary was fantastic, and he gave me my favourite Doctor with Capaldi <3
So little of the season left, and I haven't felt any desire at all to watch an episode after "Rosa".
Even with it being the final of a three-part story, Hell Bent could have been split into two episodes. It really needed some more room to breathe and more time spent on Gallifrey.
What's so bad about Name of the Doctor?
This series just doesn't feel very ambitious, there's nothing really different or out there, every episode feels like it has a similar sort of feel to it. I don't think there's anything up there with the worst of the show, but it kind of all ranges from ok to fairly decent.
Which I'm not sure is entirely attributable to Chibnall, because the problems with this series aren't problems that Torchwood had. It had a wide range of distinct episodes, often trying for something a bit different. And as I've said before, Chibnall has written campy episodes for it, he's written episodes that use the cast well. Ok in series 1 he wrote some complete crap, but he got a lot better as it went along.
Which I'm not sure is entirely attributable to Chibnall, because the problems with this series aren't problems that Torchwood had. It had a wide range of distinct episodes, often trying for something a bit different. And as I've said before, Chibnall has written campy episodes for it, he's written episodes that use the cast well. Ok in series 1 he wrote some complete crap, but he got a lot better as it went along.
Demons of the Punjab and Kerblam are very much worth it. Witchfinders and The Tsuranga Conundrum are good "standard" Doctor Who stories.
On the whole, the season has gotten better as it's gone along.
You're right more broadly, I guess was I thinking it more through the lens of this season and Chibnall's writing style/story ambitions. Like you say, the episodes are so simple and small-scale as is, that I don't think an extra five minutes thrown in would much to make a drastic difference.
Re: Moffat, I think he just tends to cram a lot in no matter how much time you give him. I don't think making The Wedding of River Song into a two-parter would've given that story more room to breathe, he would've just made up more stuff to fill up a part 2 (look at the Pandora and Astronaut two-parters, which use their combined 90 minutes to each tell two packed stories rather than one story paced across two parts). His pacing generally got way better during the Capaldi seasons than the Smith seasons, but I'm of the mind that if you gave Moffat five more minutes to play with in Wedding or Let's Kill Hitler, he would've filled the time with some new idea instead of spacing out the ideas he already had in there!
I think the Spider episode is almost as bad, but I gave Ghost Monument the nod because of how insulting I felt the ending was with the Doctor essentially admitting defeat and accepting their impending deaths as rather factual.
Obviously, though, we can argue about minute details, but I don't think it's outrageous to consider this season a massive quality drop from what came before, and this is coming from someone who largely disliked Capaldi's time as the Doctor.
As far as Who being bigger, I can understand where you're coming from, but given how mismanaged this season has been, I can understand why they avoided more grandiose stories and adventures.
I'm not sure how I can put it into words, except that it's the apotheosis of high-concept Moffatt with the giant Tardis, paying off the "Doctor's true name" thing that he'd been teasing, the Trenzalore thing he'd been teasing, and forcing Clara into an unearned "most important companion" seat all with huge doses of "cleverness" that doesn't really make any sense with scrutiny.
I couldn't even tell you what happens plot-wise except a lot of important statements about the importance of the things that are supposedly going on.
I hope Richard Grant comes back as the Great Intelligence someday because it's a great concept and he's a great actor and he was wasted as he ended up appearing.
Given that I loved S10 and loved Capaldi as the Doctor even when the stories weren't great, I do agree there.
And yeah, that ending to Ghost Monument was awful (but so was starving spiders to death). They're both terrible and the worst of the season.
Bigger would actually solve some of my issues with the season, and I hope they are saving the big stuff for the end.
Fair enough, my issues with the episode are actually mainly how it doesn't really make any sense how there's a giant TARDIS tomb for Eleven after Time of the Doctor. I haven't watched it in years but I was fine with Clara's role in it.
I do think even ignoring most of the episode though that the introduction of the War Doctor in the end is one of the most jaw dropping moments in all Doctor Who.
I'd already seen Day of the Doctor, so that moment didn't have the same punch. I would have gone nuts if I hadn't, I am sure.
Bigger is a good way to put it. It's maybe too early to judge this first Chib season, but it seems like the theme here is shoot low and hope for high. Moffat's seasons were basically shoot for the fucking moon, and if it hits, great! If not, it was a glorious try.
Starving the spiders was so weird. They could have thrown in a line about pumping gas into the panic room to euthanize the spiders, but instead they just left them in there to tear each other apart due to hunger and eventually die.
Though I don't have an issue with the Doctor being angry at Robertson shooting the giant spider. I think she was disgusted that it was killed out of hatred and fear, and in a painful manner, instead of compassion.
Though I don't have an issue with the Doctor being angry at Robertson shooting the giant spider. I think she was disgusted that it was killed out of hatred and fear, and in a painful manner, instead of compassion.
The season is, quite literally, almost over. The dude's been shooting for just above ground and somehow hitting in the basement.
I mean in the "after it's all over reflect on what's come to be" type of too early.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest / speculate that the only way this season ends up looked at fondly is if the next season is as bad or worse.
Yeah I definitely rank it last of all the post-2005 seasons right now.
This is easily my favourite season since Smith's first. Lower-key, more grounded writing, a universe that doesn't revolve around the Doctor, a better-rounded cast and a less manic tone. It hasn't had a real standout episode, but the overall quality is much higher.
My worst series insofar of NuWho was Series 5, the first year of the 11th. I didn't warm up to Smith after the amazing Tennant, some of the plots bored me to death as well as having 2 parters, and in general Amy and Rory felt too important in the grander scale of things conpared to the near Immortal Time Travelling crazy motherfucker they hitciked a ride through the universe with. After that Season 6 and 7 however fixed most of my issues, and especially thanks to the Capaldi Run, I came to appreciate Moffat as a showrunner. Even came to love S5 even though its still my worst. Chinball somehow managed to fuck this up even more.
First time in a new Who Series that I just let my backlog fill up and binge them. No hooks, no drive to wanting to see where they go next, its just there. I saw episodes 6-8 in one go, had a laugh here and there and immediately tuned out. Ghosts was a fine historical, but it had to shove a bunch of Hippie Aliens who lost their home down our throats. What the flying fuck do we have the doctor for then, who can fill in exactly the same role considering her home is still lost? The Kerblam! plot was cheeky enough, but it lost me in the Janitor's motives. That's another thing, the Janitor? What is this, Scooby fucking Doo? Witchfinders was fine enough though. Alan Cumming chewing the scenert as a Promiscous Gay King James is the Highlight of the Year, and having these Medieval country bumpkins shout satan all day long because they can't understand Aliens is hilarious.
What is not hilarious is the evident fact that Chinball is a fucking asshat who should not be the head of a Female Doctor. Every single episode he makes Jodie bitch that she is female and she can"t do anything. That she will always be a Damsel because she isn't male like the others. This is exactly what people bitched about around the reveal, and its frankly sickening he is just confirming this. I really feel he is trying to shove Jodie off the show so he can have his male Power Fantasy Doctor instead. I didn't entirely want a Female Doctor either, but it has potential and Jodie is perfect. Now just empower her you stupid cunt and maybe try to make a decent series with her empowered.
First time in a new Who Series that I just let my backlog fill up and binge them. No hooks, no drive to wanting to see where they go next, its just there. I saw episodes 6-8 in one go, had a laugh here and there and immediately tuned out. Ghosts was a fine historical, but it had to shove a bunch of Hippie Aliens who lost their home down our throats. What the flying fuck do we have the doctor for then, who can fill in exactly the same role considering her home is still lost? The Kerblam! plot was cheeky enough, but it lost me in the Janitor's motives. That's another thing, the Janitor? What is this, Scooby fucking Doo? Witchfinders was fine enough though. Alan Cumming chewing the scenert as a Promiscous Gay King James is the Highlight of the Year, and having these Medieval country bumpkins shout satan all day long because they can't understand Aliens is hilarious.
What is not hilarious is the evident fact that Chinball is a fucking asshat who should not be the head of a Female Doctor. Every single episode he makes Jodie bitch that she is female and she can"t do anything. That she will always be a Damsel because she isn't male like the others. This is exactly what people bitched about around the reveal, and its frankly sickening he is just confirming this. I really feel he is trying to shove Jodie off the show so he can have his male Power Fantasy Doctor instead. I didn't entirely want a Female Doctor either, but it has potential and Jodie is perfect. Now just empower her you stupid cunt and maybe try to make a decent series with her empowered.
I really can't think of any way that CC can save this season imo. I dread to think about New Years Day.
I mean:
Daleks/Cybermen - if he writes the story with the current approach, it'll be awful imo.
Past Doctor - he's made a hash of his own Doctor.
New threat - turns out to be a misunderstood non-threat.
How can CC turn things around this series/NYD ?
I mean:
Daleks/Cybermen - if he writes the story with the current approach, it'll be awful imo.
Past Doctor - he's made a hash of his own Doctor.
New threat - turns out to be a misunderstood non-threat.
How can CC turn things around this series/NYD ?
Get ready for 13 to get mad at humans for shooting at Daleks