You know, they took the time to write out a long post detailing their opinions, they put effort into it, on the other hand your post adds absolutely nothing.
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My thoughts on Chrono Trigger
- Thread starter Dreamboum
- Start date
CT was a top-tier game of my childhood, but I'm with you OP. Looking back at it today, I see a lot more flaws than I did then.
And I was one of those weirdos that played and loved Chrono Cross at launch and immediately felt like it was superior to Trigger. That opinion hasn't changed over the years.
And I was one of those weirdos that played and loved Chrono Cross at launch and immediately felt like it was superior to Trigger. That opinion hasn't changed over the years.
I agree with many of the points made.
The gameplay is a bit shallow, though to be honest that is true for most JRPGs of that era (..and sometimes later eras too). The story has some missed potential, and the characters in particular could be more nuanced.
It's still a good game obviously, I just didn't enjoy it as much as most people seem to do.
What I don't agree with is that Chrono Cross does a better job overall. It certainly isn't more fun to play in my opinion.
The gameplay is a bit shallow, though to be honest that is true for most JRPGs of that era (..and sometimes later eras too). The story has some missed potential, and the characters in particular could be more nuanced.
It's still a good game obviously, I just didn't enjoy it as much as most people seem to do.
What I don't agree with is that Chrono Cross does a better job overall. It certainly isn't more fun to play in my opinion.
Star Ocean came one year later and has over forty (or something close to that?) possible endings, with a lot of permutations purely from what you talk and do with your party members without relating to the main plot. Star Ocean 2 has double that number, IIRC.
Back then, they were all RPGs (even Fire Emblem). Strategy were the super boring Koei's 3 Kingdoms / Nobunaga games boring people played.
Genres were much less defined at the time.
We could create a new scale.
On the continuum of innovation and new idea in RPG were SaGa would be a 10 and DQ a 0, Chrono is a...2? 3 at best?
Not everyone wants to come out of their comfort zone (hence why DQ always sold far too much), so, yeah, Chrono Trigger is definitely not a game for people who wanted new things.
In the west, FF6.
In Japan, dozens.
I suppose "everyone" means "everyone in the US". Then the reason is probably because SMT was not released in the US.
SMT was not niche in Japan in 1995. It was one of the biggest series for teenagers.
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Personally, I'd chalk that up to your degree of familiarity with the medium. There's tons of stylistic and creative difference when it comes to comparing film and literature in a 5-10 year time frame, it only comes across as unchanging to someone less familiar with their respective history. I feel like music would be a better comparison point to illustrate this; I'd say the popular music of Chrono Trigger's time has changed and developed just as much as games have changed and developed from then to now. I'm not talking about technical aspects like 3D, which I feel are largely incidental to a game's quality, but rather about tone, presentation, subject matter, the people making it and the people consuming it, etc.
Because that's what we're ultimately talking about here: artistic quality, not technical polish.
I feel like you are looking at it with today's eyes. In 1995, what other non linear games we had? Sure, CT is no Fallout or Vampire: Bloodlines, but it was a SNES RPG in 1995.
You also are missing the point of it being optional. Of course you are going to miss the conclusion of it, that's what being optional means. Again, which game in 1995 had the balls to put so much background and character development, or entire storylines, behinds missable content while also reinforcing the time travel thematic and giving you freedom to see a completely new conclusion to the story depending on what you did?
Huge sidequests and "hidden lore" is taken for granted these days, but were not case back then.
Edit: Also, I mentioned optional because you complained about the pacing. You can immediately finish the game after reaching the End of Time. Immediately. It gives you a choice of how long you want to wander during its second half.
I do think CT is a ten on how to represent narrative and themes through mechanics and playable scenarios, but sure, it's a 3 on new mechanics itself. It had skills being learnt separately from levelling, party skills, some minor combat stuff with the AoEs and nothing much.
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It's not one of my favorites, either, but to use that preference to argue against the fundamental soundness (and yes, greatness) of the game seems misguided. A few points:
Battle System
Yeah, it's not the most complex out there, and certain combinations of techs are so powerful that you'll be tempted to use little else. At the same time, the latter half of the game is hardly easy unless you go out of your way to do all the sidequests, and the player still has to go out of their way to discover all of these tech combinations in order to use and abuse them. The game makes things simple without putting everything on a tee, a balance that I find admirable, even if I ultimately prefer other systems. And to abuse Luminaire in particular, you have to revive Crono - something that technically isn't even required to beat the game! (one of those things that really seems simple only in retrospect or with foreknowledge).
And if we're comparing to Chrono Cross...I'm not the OP has a single leg to stand on. Cross makes its regular battles almost completely pointless, and the bosses aren't exactly tactical masterpieces, either, even compared to Trigger.
Random Encounters
It's true that Chrono Trigger features many random encounters in disguise, and on replays or returns to old areas this can grate a bit. But even the present random encounters are hardly as long-lasting as the OP makes them out to be, and the game overall does a fantastic job minimizing unwanted busy-time.
Backtracking
Now this is a critique I don't understand in the slightest. Chrono Trigger is a game all about traveling through time in order to accomplish the otherwise impossible, and the game's side quests are a part of that. Do they require going back and forth between different eras? Sure...because that's the point of the entire game. The endgame quests are ultimately building upon the same lessons the player has been slowly taught over the course of the story. It would be far more trite and contrary to its core design for the game to streamline side quests in the way the OP seems to suggest.
Pacing
The OP complains about a bunch of different things here that don't really belong together, but I'll focus on the game "faltering" after Magus. Trigger simply does the same thing that FFVI did, which is to open up the game after introducing all the characters and establishing the evil to be overcome. This is a bold move and may not be appreciated by every player, but it is a deliberate design decision executed with care, as with the rest of the game. Plus, the majority of this section of the game is optional, so you can technically skip it if you wish.
Nuance
I don't think it's even necessary to go into this. Others have and will give numerous examples of the game's surprisingly dark themes or moments. Compared to the overt melodrama of Cross, this game seems a masterclass in subtlety.
Revolutionary?
This is a strawmwan. Trigger is most frequently cited as the apotheosis and ultimate refinement of the classic JRPG: evolutionary, rather than revolutionary. Even so, New Game+ and the sustained treatment of time travel might be seen as revolutionary by some critics, and I'd be hard-pressed to argue otherwise.
In short, I disagree, even as someone who doesn't worship the game nearly as much as most. Your willingness to write up your arguments at length is very much appreciated, though.
Battle System
Yeah, it's not the most complex out there, and certain combinations of techs are so powerful that you'll be tempted to use little else. At the same time, the latter half of the game is hardly easy unless you go out of your way to do all the sidequests, and the player still has to go out of their way to discover all of these tech combinations in order to use and abuse them. The game makes things simple without putting everything on a tee, a balance that I find admirable, even if I ultimately prefer other systems. And to abuse Luminaire in particular, you have to revive Crono - something that technically isn't even required to beat the game! (one of those things that really seems simple only in retrospect or with foreknowledge).
And if we're comparing to Chrono Cross...I'm not the OP has a single leg to stand on. Cross makes its regular battles almost completely pointless, and the bosses aren't exactly tactical masterpieces, either, even compared to Trigger.
Random Encounters
It's true that Chrono Trigger features many random encounters in disguise, and on replays or returns to old areas this can grate a bit. But even the present random encounters are hardly as long-lasting as the OP makes them out to be, and the game overall does a fantastic job minimizing unwanted busy-time.
Backtracking
Now this is a critique I don't understand in the slightest. Chrono Trigger is a game all about traveling through time in order to accomplish the otherwise impossible, and the game's side quests are a part of that. Do they require going back and forth between different eras? Sure...because that's the point of the entire game. The endgame quests are ultimately building upon the same lessons the player has been slowly taught over the course of the story. It would be far more trite and contrary to its core design for the game to streamline side quests in the way the OP seems to suggest.
Pacing
The OP complains about a bunch of different things here that don't really belong together, but I'll focus on the game "faltering" after Magus. Trigger simply does the same thing that FFVI did, which is to open up the game after introducing all the characters and establishing the evil to be overcome. This is a bold move and may not be appreciated by every player, but it is a deliberate design decision executed with care, as with the rest of the game. Plus, the majority of this section of the game is optional, so you can technically skip it if you wish.
Nuance
I don't think it's even necessary to go into this. Others have and will give numerous examples of the game's surprisingly dark themes or moments. Compared to the overt melodrama of Cross, this game seems a masterclass in subtlety.
Revolutionary?
This is a strawmwan. Trigger is most frequently cited as the apotheosis and ultimate refinement of the classic JRPG: evolutionary, rather than revolutionary. Even so, New Game+ and the sustained treatment of time travel might be seen as revolutionary by some critics, and I'd be hard-pressed to argue otherwise.
In short, I disagree, even as someone who doesn't worship the game nearly as much as most. Your willingness to write up your arguments at length is very much appreciated, though.
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That's disappointing to hear. I've been trying to play some older JRPGs and some of the ones I've played, which seemed to be looked on pretty fondly, were a bit... Simple. I guess that's to expect but some games (Xenogears for example) has interesting stories to hold my attention. I'll still give a try someday though.
Because western gamers have limited access to JRPGs hence they are not the best judge to the subject?
But his is also not what cristim is. Lookijng at old works is less "I think thing is not as good as others, here list of reasons." and more "Here is an interesting way look at this work and give us another way to understand it place in history or the themes its dealing with." To be honest OP's approach is the cinema sin approach to criticism.
I mean Chrono Trigger is just a masterpiece of a game. The pacing, the art, the speed of the game, the story and the characters. Each one is done so well and they all work together to make a game that feels effortless.
It is just such a fun game. You feel good after playing it. And its probably the only rpg that I always go back to. I buy it on every platform it comes out on, and with the exception of on iPhone, it always captures me and I always end up finishing it.
It is just such a fun game. You feel good after playing it. And its probably the only rpg that I always go back to. I buy it on every platform it comes out on, and with the exception of on iPhone, it always captures me and I always end up finishing it.
Thanks for the write-up OP. You pretty thoroughly covered a lot of the reasons why I don't think Chrono Trigger is all that great, myself.
For me the biggest issue is one you pointed out, that the battle system is far too simple. Myself, my favorite kinds of RPGs are ones with really rich and deep customization systems, stuff like Etrian Odyssey and Bravely Default, where you can spend hours coming up with new and creative party configurations. Chrono Trigger never even attempts to do anything like that, and so it will never be high up on my list of favorites.
For me the biggest issue is one you pointed out, that the battle system is far too simple. Myself, my favorite kinds of RPGs are ones with really rich and deep customization systems, stuff like Etrian Odyssey and Bravely Default, where you can spend hours coming up with new and creative party configurations. Chrono Trigger never even attempts to do anything like that, and so it will never be high up on my list of favorites.
I agree with the OP about Magus' castle being the high point of the game. I always felt the game, outside of Zeal, loses a lot of the steam it builds up once you get through that part. Last time I played I just straight-up lost interest and quit playing after the Ocean Palace.
I think FFIV already has option hidden side quests, FFVI even has optional party members. Those old games are quite linear in today's standard, yes. But there were still games like Metal Max that brought open world to the table.
It's a fine game overall but man oh man is it overrated. I've played it and enjoyed it but won't ever understand the immense praise it gets. It's nowhere near the greatest RPG of all time.
OP
OP
Are you kidding me ? I literally took the time to compare it among its contemporaries. I didn't compare it to Final Fantasy XV, it wouldn't even make sense.
There is nothing about the medium in 1995 that justifies my grievances with the game. I don't dislike some of its elements because of the time, but precisely because it was released in 1995 and it could have been much more than it was at that time.
I'm not saying "haha i don't like silent protagonist *ding*" or making roundabout ways of making fun of the game because of this and that. I'm explaining why there were some things that I felt didn't work as well as it should have been, which is the polar opposite of cinemasins. In no way I am making fun of the game.
Honestly, so many reactions is like "it was like this at the time !" and it's simply untrue.
I don't think either FFs come close to the scale CT does it, and even if you disagree, that is an incredible small amount of games doing it anyway that furthers the point if you read the following paragraphs on my post.
Really?
I feel like the scale in FF4 and 6 is way bigger than in CT.
I like CT more than those games (and I really, really love those games, especially FF6) but CT just feels so tight and complete in a way few rpgs or honestly even most games ever do.
It still dull surface level observations that are meaningless. "I don't like this thing, but see other game had thing I DO like" is not meaningful criticism. Meaningful criticism is digging deep. What is the overall impact of the simple combat? Does it shift focus to other elements? How does it set up the difference in normal fights vs boss fights? How does the combat inform charterer? How does it not do any of that? Quick test for if you have something even approaching meaningful critical discourse, do you have a thesis statement? (and no a thing is not as good as others say is not a thesis statement)
So much of nerds trying to do critical discourse is them trying to reverse engineering it from reviews, and that does not work.
I mean if you didn't read my post, or OP's post and just pulled shit out of your ass, i could see how you would arrive at that conclusion... Additionally can you provide a quote for when i said the game was "bad" because i only remember saying I "loved" it. I went into detail about how i played the game a few months ago, enjoyed it, feel its current status is overrated and that it did nothing to impact the genre as a whole....not sure how one sums that up as "i agree that thing is bad". Especially considering OP and myself have both objectively agreed that the game is not bad...(pretty sure the word OP used to describe CT, was "perfect"). Curious if you actually read beyond the first sentence prior to shit posting?
I am referring to the scale in which it uses optional content to tell stories and how it affects its design. Lemme grab a couple quotes from Reverse Design:
I agree with this post.
I played Chrono Trigger for the first time 3 months ago (I'm 24). It was an absolute delight to play. Just wanted to add a non nostalgia infused perspective.
I typed up a longer response and locked my phone screen just for Twitter to close out the link. That's what I get for not opening in Chrome.
It is.
I finally got round to playing through it in the mid '00s and, despite being a huge RPG fan, and despite sort of pleasantly, effortlessly bumbling my way through, my memory of the experience remains an indifferent mush. I look at YouTube videos of CT and I have no desire whatsoever to return to it for a reappraisal. There's not one character, location, battle, or story beat which sparks my interest. By contrast simply hearing a great track from one of the many RPGs I do love can have me itching to replay it.
It's very polished and very pretty, but to me ultimately the very definition of vanilla, which is all the more disappointing considering the talent behind it.
Also regarding the FFVII/CT race going on in this thread, I'd back FVII's horse any day.
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OP
OP
I think you have a huge issue in understanding the difference between an analysis and an opinion piece.
Not only that but I directly observed my issue with how it creates a lack of challenge and a reliance on a small pool of skills needed to get through the game. I also observed how it relates to my need of running away from enemies as a result and being denied this option by the game many times.
Comparing X with Y is not a sin, it puts into context the way a game is designed and how its differences creates two different experiences. You're just reading what you want to read and make a vacuous statement out of it.
I dunno if a more generic title would have stopped people from driving by with shitposts. The entire first page avalanche of people racing to make crappy threadwhining one-liners makes me never want to return to gaming side.
From what I've noticed the title does make a difference a lot of the time. Which is a shame, because an opinion shouldn't lead to such a strong reaction.
Some posts on the first page have been actioned so hopefully we see less of this going forward.
I love Chrono Trigger in part because of some of the complaints in the OP. It's a simple game, with a simple story, and simple gameplay, that executes all of those things incredibly well in a smaller than average space for the genre.
It's like the very best slice of JRPG comfort food there is, lacking in the glaring flaws that haunt some of the bigger and more daring games from the same generation.
I'm usually drawn to much more complex RPGs, so for me CT holds up as the best example I enjoy returning to from the opposite pole of the genre.
Like, I recognize that the SNES SMT games were way more innovative and creative and probably better overall, and I love them. Would I play them once a year? Nah, not really, because they require much more attention and time investment. I value my time with them immensely, of course.
And on the other hand, most unmemorable easy JRPGs are just not even worth finishing the first time. CT is a great game to go back to often, with just enough "there" there to enjoy.
It's like the very best slice of JRPG comfort food there is, lacking in the glaring flaws that haunt some of the bigger and more daring games from the same generation.
I'm usually drawn to much more complex RPGs, so for me CT holds up as the best example I enjoy returning to from the opposite pole of the genre.
Like, I recognize that the SNES SMT games were way more innovative and creative and probably better overall, and I love them. Would I play them once a year? Nah, not really, because they require much more attention and time investment. I value my time with them immensely, of course.
And on the other hand, most unmemorable easy JRPGs are just not even worth finishing the first time. CT is a great game to go back to often, with just enough "there" there to enjoy.
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I think it's sorta sad how some people tries to bring games like Chrono Trigger, FFVII, Ocarina of Time, Super Metroid etc to a untouchable holy flawless status where nobody is allowed to dislike them, or even thinking they're not the best game in the universe.
Anyway, i agree with a lot of OP's points. I think the encounter system in CT is brilliant tho, in the way every enemy act sorta different and creates a feeling of unpredictability, while even nowadays enemies in JRPGs just stand there to be dodged or engaged in dungeons. Of course it feels repetitive if you walk in the same dungeons multiple times since everything is scripted, but it's always impressive the first time. Forced battles seems like a necessary evil to not let the player be too weak, maybe? It gets annoying some times but i think these are really well placed.
I also think that CT's pacing is good enough to not make the backtracking boring, tho i rarely waste much time on sidequests, so yeah.
But yeah, plot wise it's nothing to write home about, and character development is pretty weak overall, in comparison with stuff like FFVI, TO or BoFII. I always forget that both Lunar games were released before CT as well, but i never played the original versions, to compare. i should do that someday.
I have a lot of problems with CC, in the way the plot and overall progression always felt like a giant clusterfuck, but i need to replay this some time. I never actually got any okay ending since i never figured that color puzzle in the final boss, so there's a lot of stuff i may have lost haha
Anyway, i agree with a lot of OP's points. I think the encounter system in CT is brilliant tho, in the way every enemy act sorta different and creates a feeling of unpredictability, while even nowadays enemies in JRPGs just stand there to be dodged or engaged in dungeons. Of course it feels repetitive if you walk in the same dungeons multiple times since everything is scripted, but it's always impressive the first time. Forced battles seems like a necessary evil to not let the player be too weak, maybe? It gets annoying some times but i think these are really well placed.
I also think that CT's pacing is good enough to not make the backtracking boring, tho i rarely waste much time on sidequests, so yeah.
But yeah, plot wise it's nothing to write home about, and character development is pretty weak overall, in comparison with stuff like FFVI, TO or BoFII. I always forget that both Lunar games were released before CT as well, but i never played the original versions, to compare. i should do that someday.
I have a lot of problems with CC, in the way the plot and overall progression always felt like a giant clusterfuck, but i need to replay this some time. I never actually got any okay ending since i never figured that color puzzle in the final boss, so there's a lot of stuff i may have lost haha
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Agree to disagree.
Loved the tie ins and call backs.
To each his own
Didn't work out thematically, though. It's very jarring. Chrono Trigger is a very much a good versus evil plot with time travel and vignettes. Cross is a much serious affair and vibe.
Comparing your post to cinema sins was ridiculous.
But I wouldn't say you mainly compared CT to its contemporaries in your first post. I'd say comparisons to Cross are the most common.
Let me start by saying that I prefer Trigger, and don't really care for Cross.
I actually agree that Trigger's gameplay is not its strongest point. Though if I compared it with FFVI then I like CT over it, because while it can be broken down to using the best spell, the existence of dual and triple techs make party building more interesting to me than giving characters the same spellset through espers.
The way enemies and backtracking work don't bother, and I don't have much to say about them.
I disagree about the game's pacing. I personally think CT is tightly paced and there's no moment I dislike.
So the story. CT is indeed a simple story, meant to be fun more than it is trying to break boundaries. Here it sounds like you want Trigger to be like Cross, and with a comment like
It sounds like you think Kato was held back.
But for me, I end up feeling the opposite. I feel that the team that built Trigger are the reason behind the game being something I love as much as I do, and it's them splitting up that ends up making Cross not hit that same spot.
For me, Cross' story wasn't satisfying. Kato didn't just make something that was completely its own thing(which I would have preferred to a direct Trigger sequel, personally), he instead went back to the events of Trigger and took apart the magic, wanting to explain so much more(something I might not have been completely against, but I feel by largely ignoring the older characters for new ones, it ends up lacking the impact it could have had).
But the thing is, I do get it. If someone finds Cross to be the more engaging game, then I can easily see how Trigger wouldn't hold up as well. These two games are so different, and in a way both end up being some of the best representations of the genre in the era they were made.
Youll never convince me as such. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But i respect the opinion.
So what do you think about the complete tonal shift? I think Cross is great btw. But when I first played you had all these callbacks to the earlier story and characters, such as the ghosts, and such, but it never felt quite right.
I personally wish they took the FF approach and just went completely different universe.
Because throughout the game, you're thinking is this guy Magus? Is this Ayla's daughter? Etc. Doesn't help that the storyline is connected to Trigger.
Xenogears, for all its development-related flaws, is a better game than Chrono Trigger. It's linear as hell, but it has a fun battle system and an engaging story.
I'm with you op, I think FFVI and Chrono Cross are way better games.
Is still cool but I never felt it like many other people.
Is still cool but I never felt it like many other people.
I never liked Chrono Trigger all that much either. It just doesn't seem that special for me. I mean, you can SEE that the level of production that went into it is definitely the finest you could have at the time, but that didn't necessarily translate into an equal level of gaming enjoyment, at least for me. I like stuff like FFVI or DQV much better.
It's a very good game because it obviously had so much effort put into it and the best staff a game could have, but it's not a godlike experience like most would make you believe.
It's a very good game because it obviously had so much effort put into it and the best staff a game could have, but it's not a godlike experience like most would make you believe.
I think Chrono Trigger is a very polished and fun game, it's easily one of the best representations of the JRPG's from that era. That said I also don't hold it at a holy grail status that a lot of people do. I do agree that backtracking is annoying and I feel like it did loose some magic halfway through. It's a little unfair to knock it for it's combat though because at worst it was par for the course when it comes to the genre, the simplicity of the story isn't something I see as detracting from the experience either.
I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see a port but from what I hear the PC version is quite good now.
Chrono Trigger is my favorite game of all time and I greatly disagree with you OP but the way some people have acted on your post is wrong. You can take that stance if you want. I don't belittle people when they say they don't like Cross and complain about it. I do agree with the flaw that the game is too easy. It's really the only complaint from me.
"Chrono Trigger is way overrated!"
*Final Fantasy VII avatar.*
Yep. I played it with no nostalgia to influence me, and it's my favorite game of all time.
I consider Chrono Trigger & Chrono Cross among the best games ever made to this day.
Imagination, music, art.
otherworldly beauty.
Imagination, music, art.
otherworldly beauty.