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Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
The first time I played it was in high school some 7 or 8 years ago. It was something I really enjoyed but I never engaged with it critically.

I've decided to replay it because I was absolutely floored with my playthrough of Chrono Cross. It was an unforgettable experience that I felt really pushed the envelope of the genre. I feel both games are a complete package and Chrono Cross couldn't have been that good without Chrono Trigger as a base. I feel it expressed all the nuance and development the original game needed.

So I decided to replay Chrono Trigger with the insight of Cross, and now I feel it doesn't match up to quite the same level nowadays. I think the lack of nostalgia doesn't help, as I think nostalgia is a core element of Trigger because it's obviously a story about going back to the past, about going back to simpler times. But still, there were things that made me think that while Trigger is a short but sweet experience, it isn't as fulfilling as I wanted it to be.

  • The battle system is too simple
My biggest gripe with the game is that it offers next to no challenge and the amount of battle variety is non-existent. Abusing double and triple techs really just destroys anything, and when Crono receives the Luminary spell, you don't even have to think ever again about what you're doing. The lack of challenge can be a quality for some, but it was hard to remain engaged when there is nothing to do. Magus' fight might be the only thing that is challenging. In comparison, Cross might be too complex, but it remained constantly engaging and it really enhanced my experience.

  • The lack of random encounters isn't really fixing the issue
Random encounters is a cursed term, but Trigger's way of fixing isn't all that better. I was constantly annoyed at enemies appearing out of the woodwork to force a battle, forcing me to hug walls all the time in order to avoid the battle trigger. Not only that but you have to wait for them to appear, then you have to wait for the party to position themselves, wait for the battle to load, then you can fight. This is too long for a SNES JRPG. Then for enemies on screen you have to zig-zag around them and it's just annoying after a while. It didn't alleviate my frustration, but I enjoy that I don't have to fight them again if I have to backtrack, to a certain extent.

  • Backtracking is fierce
Despite being a short game, the backtracking happens much more often than I was led to believe. The side-quests in particular just makes you hop through eras all the time without any justification other than a fetch quest. The "sidequests" are very nice, but the progression is really annoying. Here are two examples:

Masamune quest:
To fully explore the ruins and power up the Masamune, the party must hire the Carpenter in 600 A.D. In order to hire him, the Carpenter's Tools must be acquired from another carpenter from 1000 A.D. who lives in the same area. Once the tools have been given to the carpenter in 600 A.D., send him and his crew to the ruins to do repairs. Follow them there and clear out the monsters. Hire the Carpenter again for a small fee and Cyrus's grave will be accessible. After powering up the Masamune leave and hire the carpenters again to clear out the upper level.

A *small* excerpt of Lucca's Sidequest :
Head back to the future (2300 A.D.) and the stone will be missing, and Magus will intuitively guess it's been missing for 1300 years. First head back to 600 A.D. while you're at it to find a Power Tab in the Sun Keep, and now go back to 1000 A.D., the present. Once you find that the Moon Stone is missing from the Sun Keep, head over to Porre at the southwest corner of the map, to find that the Mayor's House is suspiciously glowing. The Mayor of Porre has it, but being a greedy man will not admit that he has stolen it. What you will you need to do is play with space and time to deal with his greed.

To do this, buy some Jerky from the nearby Snail Stop for 9,900 G and head back in time to 600 A.D. Go to the elder's house, which will one day be the Mayor's house. Speak to the woman across from the door. She will tell you that she needs some Jerky. When she sees that you have Jerky she will offer to buy it from you for 10,000 G. You can sell the Jerky to her for 10,000 G and make a 100 G profit, but you should give it to her for free. This will change the way she feels about generosity and sharing. She will be stunned by your generosity and vow to raise her children to be fine, upstanding, and generous people. Head back to the present (1000 A.D.) after giving it to her.

You shouldn't have needed half of that to setup the conclusion of the quests. It just goes on and on.

  • It kinda falters half-way through
The prehistory bit, which takes a much bigger place than I thought, just feels harrowing after a while. The dungeons are not interesting, Ayla doesn't help much about it. I also think that after the highlight of Magus' Castle (excellent part of the game), only the Zeal chapter in the antiquity era manages to remain on the same level. It's kinda disappointing.

  • The story hardly has any nuance
I think Magus is stellar and really drives the plot to great heights, but other than that, the journey is mostly a feel-good journey of a band of friends gathering to fight evil without putting it into perspective. It's always meant to be fun through the different eras. It doesn't put into question what they are doing, the full extent of their meddling, and how Lavos can have a history that is much deeper than being the scourge of the planet. It really bums me out because the story has a lot of potential, and I think Masato Kato really built something very strong that seems to have never developed because Horii/Sakaguchi must have felt that it should remain simple and easy to follow. I understand why Kato spent so many years trying to expand on it, in my opinion. Cross does a really great job really putting all the missing pieces together that re-contextualizes Trigger as something much more interesting than it seems. Suddenly the story has the nuance it needed, the consequences it wrought, and a metaphysical groundwork.

  • It's not the revolution of the genre
A side-note, but it's interesting to see how Chrono Trigger is hailed as a revolution, as something so many JRPGs took as a template, as an influence. But to this, I ask, where are the games influenced by Trigger ? Final Fantasy VII, an undeniable revolution in the JRPG space, was undoubtedly influenced by Final Fantasy VI all throughout. Random encounters still remained a staple of the genre for years to come. Time travel didn't see a resurgence in JRPG stories. The only influence I can think of is Dragon Quest VII with the use of time travel and Yuji Horii pushing it much further (I think DQ7 did it better too). Chrono Cross itself goes in a wildly different direction. It's funny because I keep reading previews of games saying that X is like Chrono Trigger and I just don't see it. Radiant Historia is another comparison, but playing through this game makes it clear it has nothing in common. I think people are just quick to link any Time Travel-related stories in JRPGs as a spiritual successor of Trigger. It's all superficial.

______

In a way, I'm kinda conflicted. I think I enjoyed it more than my last time around, because Cross managed to heighten the stakes and develop the story in a way that makes it coming back much better to follow. But it still has issues that makes it not the masterpiece I drilled in my head. There is this feeling that this game didn't want to go through the fullest extent of what it laid out. As if there was a dichotomy between two writers : one who wants to make a short, but sweet story, and someone who wants to make it have a deeper meaning, a stronger development. It's like a story of Dragon Quest butting head with the video game equivalent of Evangelion (or Xenogears).

And I think it's where the difference in opinion lies, someone who seeks simplicity will deeply enjoy Trigger. I dare say it's the perfect game for someone who doesn't like JRPGs in general. It doesn't have much of the trappings, and it ends right before it starts to become overwrought and drawn-out, but it is at the expense of offering something stronger.

On the same platform, I think Final Fantasy VI is one such game that manages to remain fun and simple while exploring themes that are truly interesting. If I have to compare the two, FF6 feels like a more daring game that constantly challenges the player by creating something new even at the expense of the game itself. It aims higher, and reaches even higher heights as a result. I think about the dreamscape of Cyan, showing his trauma haunting him and it seems like something truly novel at this level of writing. I think about Setzer's story of grief, Celes' struggle as she tries to find meaning in her life. I don't see it to the same extent in Trigger because it strives to remain simple. Only Magus and Frog seems to have the development that was really satisfying to see to a conclusion, and this is why I love them a lot. Magus needs a follow-up on his story.

Chrono Cross on the other hand, doesn't have this simplicity at all. It's complex (maybe too complex), but when it strikes, it strikes hard. It offered relationships that develops throughout and a silent protagonist that is being subverted to truly feel like a central and crucial element of the story. When it reaches to the Lynx parts, it just becomes unforgettable in my mind. And I valued that a lot, despite its many flaws and quirks.

All of this to say, Chrono Trigger probably isn't my type of game all things considered. It's still something I enjoyed to an extent, but it feels almost too superficial to the kind of experience I seek in the genre. Thinking about it, I can agree it is a "perfect" JRPG, but it made me realize I do not seek perfection in the genre. I seek ambition, daringness, and at the end of the day I don't think Chrono Trigger has that. It simply is perfect, and perfection feels boring to me.

It seems like a long-ass post, so thanks for whoever took the time to read me.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
7,273
Really? Is this the best you can do with his well reasoned and argued position?

I think Chrono Trigger is amazing game OP but there is a lot of fluff said about this game that isn't true. It didn't revolutionise the genre, it's not particularly influential, and the story is a load of old meh.

That said, it's one of the finest crafted games I've ever played. Everything it sets out to do it does with quality.
 

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
It's weird when people mention nostalgia as if we all played games when they released or something. I mean you are entitled to your opinion but there is no other 2d rpg I would recommend over chrono trigger.

And stop trying to make chrono cross happen.
 
OP
OP
Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
Opinion noted, and sequestered away into the hallway of bad takes forever.

Bad takes ?

ukebyjzkvflg.gif
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
Hey someone else who appreciates Cross more than trigger, welcome to the small club where we more or less correct people about Cross's plot and other small issues that people remember wrong.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,472
It's a fun game but not anywhere near as good as people make it out to be. But expect to see a whole lot of "I disagree" with regards to your points rather than interesting discussion
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
How 'bout that soundtrack though. Sooooooo good. Surprised such a lengthy OP could be made without addressing it at all (unless I missed it?).
 

antitrop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,600
At least now I understand why the OP responded to a comment I made about Chrono Trigger the way they did.
 

MegaMelon

Member
Feb 6, 2018
90
I think it's a bit odd that the OP gave a fairly detailed write up as to why they feel this way then the majority of responses are basically just saying "no you're wrong" without addressing any of their points. You may as well not say anything then if you're not actually going to engage with the thread and just drive by with 1 sentence responses.

I haven't even played the game but it's on my list and even if when I do I end up loving it I appreciate the effort you put into this thread OP.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,472
Also op is dead wrong about FFVII being revolutionary to jrpgs when the only thing it did that was particularly new was it's presentation
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,690
I don't know anything about Chrono Trigger, but I wanna see where this thread goes.
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,940
CT
User Warned: Inflammatory drive by post
Really? Is this the best you can do with his well reasoned and argued position?

I think Chrono Trigger is amazing game OP but there is a lot of fluff said about this game that isn't true. It didn't revolutionise the genre, it's not particularly influential, and the story is a load of old meh.

That said, it's one of the finest crafted games I've ever played. Everything it sets out to do it does with quality.

I've read well argued positions about being anti-vaxx. You can't argue with people who are completely off the deep end.
 

wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
I kind of agree with you OP. It's a super straightforward game in terms of mechanics and systems, and I get the sense that the main reason people appreciate it is that it's a JRPG with brisk pacing that never gets in your way much... for me, it's the exact opposite of what I want out of the genre though.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,144
* *The battle system is too simple*

How complex do you need a battle system for the kind of JRPG it is in the era it came out? Even today, CT's battle system is more complex than a Dragon's Quest game. I think the issue here is that it is a rather easy game.

* *The lack of random encounters isn't really fixing the issue*

This was rather big at the time actually. Random battles were a big detriment those not as versed with the genre. It made CT very accessible. Once you're overpowered, why even fight? What's the incentive?

* *Backtracking is fierce*

Not really backtracking here since these are optional quests. And backtracking is part of the the time travel mechanic. It doesn't feel like backtracking really. You feel like you're affecting time itself. A key conceit of the game.

* *It kinda falters half-way through*

Some of the most wide open areas are mid game and above. You lose your main character, gain a new ally, if you want to, and tons of rather fun quests open up, including some rather heart warming ones, like Lucca and Robo.

* *The story hardly has any nuance*

Really? Magus's redemption. Lucca's story with her mother. Marle's attachment to Chrono. Robo disavowing his creator for the greater good.

* *It's not the revolution of the genre*

I would say the whole new game plus thing is a huge one. I don't remember time travel being done in a JRPG this well along how the endings were handled. You needed NG+. Heck NG+ became a thing after CT in many genres. I mean, God of War 2018 has it.

But CT is not going to be everyone. It's a lauded game for sure and I enjoyed reading your OP.
 
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Mechanized

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,442
I was about to have some really harsh words but I see that we do agree Chrono Cross is the better game. We are so few we must stick together brother.
 
Apr 16, 2018
1,760
I honestly agree with you fully OP, but prepare for a shitton of drive by posters telling you you're wrong.

Cross is the better game in almost every way.
 

wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
I think it's a bit odd that the OP gave a fairly detailed write up as to why they feel this way then the majority of responses are basically just saying "no you're wrong" without addressing any of their points. You may as well not say anything then if you're not actually going to engage with the thread and just drive by with 1 sentence responses.

I haven't even played the game but it's on my list and even if when I do I end up loving it I appreciate the effort you put into this thread OP.
It's really disheartening to see so many people be dismissive about this thread when OP really wasn't abrasive about their position at all and presented their points well.
 

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
There is a reason Chrono Cross is forgotten
 

ryushe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,814
Man, I go back and forth with what game I love more between Trigger and Cross.

While I love the brevity of Trigger, it's story and characters really does suffer because of it. But dammit if I don't enjoy playing that game and being in that world.

Cross on the other hand, I fucking love the story and it's only real flaw is that its cast is too big. If that game only had half of dozen characters pivotal to the plot, it would've been a much stronger package. BUT on the other hand, I greatly dislike the gameplay of Cross..

So yeah, I'm always torn at which one I love more.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,172
And I think it's where the difference in opinion lies, someone who seeks simplicity will deeply enjoy Trigger.

that's kind of why it's critically acclaimed as it is. it doesn't bang you over the head with complex systems or a grandiose "deep" narrative but executes those jrpg beats exceedingly well at the same time

kind of like what Dragon Quest sets out to do but (IMO) much better. just an overall lean, mean and solid package
 

Blackquill

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Banned
Oct 25, 2017
783
The battle system is too simple
My biggest gripe with the game is that it offers next to no challenge and the amount of battle variety is non-existent. Abusing double and triple techs really just destroys anything, and when Crono receives the Luminary spell, you don't even have to think ever again about what you're doing. The lack of challenge can be a quality for some, but it was hard to remain engaged when there is nothing to do. Magus' fight might be the only thing that is challenging. In comparison, Cross might be too complex, but it remained constantly engaging and it really enhanced my experience.

The little bit about Chrono Cross was just not true for me. Random encounters were so stupid and useless you just steamrolled it after gathering enough ressources to spam your best elements, so you just avoid it. Bosses are numerous but only a few of them were actually challenging and what I mean by challenging. I think I only had some game over early and late in the game. Most of the time, I just shruged it off and forgot about it.
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
I disagree with you, but I appreciate you taking the time to organize your thoughts and into a cogent critique with definite arguments instead of falling back on "Whatever it's just my opinion don't @ me."

I'm sure you'll get plenty of people who'll step up and offer counter arguments, so I won't add to the pile.
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,144
Just because it's the best of all time doesn't mean it's perfect. A better RPG is conceivable, it just has never been done.

I mean it doesn't have graphics years ahead of its time. Technically it doesn't match up with its contemporaries. It could have looked better than Daytona USA! Where's the CD audio of the music? Just SNES music? It could have had all the action of Doom and the tactics of Final Fantasy Tactics. Why wasn't the writing as influential as Shakespeare? Why wasn't Chrono Trigger the last game anyone ever bought because you could play it for ever and ever and it never ended and was always fresh and original?

Hell, even the best game of all time, Doom, has many faults.
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,995
North Carolina
Im not gonna call your opinion wrong or anything, to each their own. But damn if I don't disagree. I will give you that its easy, but honestly not every RPG needs to be difficult.
 

Rickenslacker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,415
I really liked it, and I only played through it in full a few years ago with the DS version. I don't really gravitate towards the genre on the whole so that might be part of it, but there was no noatalgia for me there.

The issues brought up with the battle system aren't ones I find a problem, it made for well presented fights and I tend to prefer these games on the easier end to allow more flexibility in how I want to play.

I found it pretty well executed and paced such that I always felt forward momentum to keep me going. A contemporary JRPG giant FF6 hasn't had the same effect and I've started, stopped, and restarted it so many times at this point that I don't think I'll ever beat it.

Also, the first few posters in here should be embarrassed. So tiresome to see the same kind of thoughtless shitposting whenever a sacred cow gets criticized.
 

Haganeren

Member
Oct 28, 2017
89
Well, sometime i will be able to be gripped by Chrono Cross but it didn't happened yet.
I suppose it's better "after"...


"The battle system is too simple"

I mean, yes of course but i feel like it's the case for a lot of J RPG i play and love ( Shadow Hearts, Live A Live, Earthbound ) and don't feel like that lack of depth has any bearing on the game quality.... Or we have to say the same for a lot of other J RPG.


"The lack of random encounters isn't really fixing the issue"


It's still a lot better. There IS a lot of free battle and you can avoid most of them (they weren't made in order to be avoided) but we still have a lot of them that you can see a mile away that doesn't feel "free". There is even some that happen directly because of the player action which is nice.

If i compare a playthrough of Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger, i feel like Chrono Trigger has a lot less battle overall... More important : When you do a fight, it doesn't appear again until you completely quit the zone before going back and THIS is what feel so good about it. The feeling hat you cleared a zone.


"Backtracking is fierce"

Your example are strange, i feel like what you really want to address for issue is the fact that the quest design of the time was really too obscure and most of people wouldn't figure out what to do. It doesn't feel like that backtracking was anything worst than what i see even nowadays... And zones in Chrono Trigger tends to be quite small too !

So yeah, maybe you just have to change the title ?


"It kinda falters half-way through"

I think the game kinda lose itself during the Prehistoric era but i don't think you are the only one who think like that. Even die hard fans tends to say it, it's quite a popular opinion.
But what they say is that it's the only part of the game that feel annoying the rest is quite fine. So yeah... It's a little hard to say that it "falters half-way through" just for that moment in my opinion.


"The story hardly has any nuance"

I feel like you just wanted to say that Cross has a good story.

As far as i'm concerned, Trigger is a story with a LOT of memorable events. The tribunal, the desolated future, the end of time, the city in the cloud, Magus castle and story etc etc.
So yeah, it doesn't have a lot of depth but it's really fun to follow... and i don't think we have to ask him a lot much. The feeling of knowing what happen from the start of time to the end of the world is as good as it is, it doesn't need more complicated thing inside of THAT game. (Which already have a TONS of events and characters)

And see, because it doesn't have more complicated thing, Cross could exists, isn't that cool ? Final Fantasy VI doesn't have that "good sequel that you feel like is better because of the story".... So somehow, it's better that Chrono Trigger is like that isn't it ?


"It's not the revolution of the genre"


I don't know, it never felt as a revolution for me either and i hardly saw people talking about it like that. It feel like most people like it "because it's really well put together". Graphics, Memorable Moments, Characters, Music. Personally Chrono Trigger never was a really big RPG even as i was little. ( I was much more into Final Fantasy VI or Rudora no Hihou ), i was kinda surprised to see people specifically loving THAT game over others on SNES i played at the time... So i don't don't feel anything special about Chrono Trigger...... But still, I feel like i don't agree with a lot of what you say somehow.




It feels like a lot of nitpicking to be honest.
Someday, i will have the patience to play Chrono Cross until the end.......
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
27,176
A lot of Chrono Trigger's popularity can be attributed to its high level of polish and the presentation. I'd also argue that despite some backtracking, it's an extremely well-paced game, especially for its genre. The problem with the combat is more that the game itself is a tad bit too easy and forgiving, rather than not complex enough. I appreciate the writeup and can see where you're coming from though.





All that said...

how fucking dare you.
 
Oct 30, 2017
9,215
It's waaaaaay overrated.

Tried my best to like it many times specially I'm a big Square fan and in love with JRPG games.... last time was back in summer finished it and never again touching it.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
You say that like that entitles him to any more of time than I'm willing to give. In the end all it boils down to is "I don't like popular thing." and my response will to that always be "Okay."
It absolutely does on this board because there is the option to not reply if you don't have anything to say. In fact in this case it's just good manners, and that's not even getting started on forum rules.